No.2654[Last 50 Posts]
When I was a wee lad I read Katawa Shoujo and ended up really liking Emi. She hit all the right spots for me personality wise. I finished her route with the impression that she was supposed to be the token tomboy among the main girls. To my astonishment, when I went on the Katawa Shoujo forum I found out that other people did not consider her a tomboy. How? She's the athletic, bold, energetic girl who likes to play rough. Did I not just describe a tomboy? Is it because she doesn't "look" like a tomboy? Ridiculous. It was as if at some point I had been transported to bizarro world where the word tomboy had been hijacked by pathetic fetishists who now tied the word tomboy to physical appearance.
As the years went by I found myself highly attracted to 2D girls with varying types of what are culturally seen as masculine qualities. Like the aforementioned athletic, bold, energetic, likes to play rough but also aggressive, assertive, emotionally reserved, brash, vulgar, messy, short-tempered, rhetorical, analytical, philosophical, gluttonous, as lustful as a man and so on. In other words, women who behave like the worst and best of male cultural stereotypes. Do they "look" like tomboys? Some do. But even then I have nothing in common with the pathetic fetishists, the most egregious and possibly loudest of which circlejerk over 2D girls who only "look" like tomboys and otherwise do not deviate much from the assumed average girl who on top of that unironically fantasize about turning said "tomboy" into a traditional 1950s cooking, breeding and raising servant (read: wife).
Don't believe me? Give a definition for the word tomboy. Then objectively think of all the fictional girls who come to your mind that fit that definition. How many have you never thought of as tomboys?
It's not just the word tomboy that is being systematically destroyed by pathetic fetishists. The word gyaru did not simply refer to physical appearance alone, but a whole subculture. To be a gyaru it's not enough to dress the part, you also have to act the part else you're a poser right? That's how subcultures work. Gals are stereotypically vain, airheaded, trendy, extroverted, socially intelligent, gold diggers, Americaboos and so on. Today? Shy gyaru. Awkward gyaru. Recluse gyaru. Tomboy gyaru. Normal girl gyaru. Otaku gyaru. Of course a character turning out to be different from expectation is funny on the occasion, but when every gyaru is effectively a poser gyaru that's when you start getting mad. Hell, I've seen people start calling characters "gyaru" for simply having a shallow physical resemblance to gals (makeup, dark skin, blonde or pink hair, etc.) which is the very height of this fetish madness.
As the capitalist world crumbles, as escapism rapidly turns into fetishism, as words become nothing more than visual pornographic descriptors, voices like mine will remain to scream and shout at the dying light.
No.2656
Congratulations, you've discovered the consumerist waifuism that has been a staple of weebs for at least a decade.
No.2657
>>2656I don't think it's correct to say I've discovered it just now, I just never articulated it this thoroughly. Katawa Shoujo came out in 2012 after all.
No.2667
>>2654Is this a copypasta? "Tomboy" is just an umbrella term. In Japan, it means a girl who is brash and noisy, so even the Japanese will not consider if a character is a tomboy like you do.
No.2670
you're entitled to an opinion, but you sound as much a fetishist as the ones you criticized
No.2671
>>2667Tomboy as a definition is a girl who behaves like a boy. Toph Bei Fong is an example of a tomboy character.
No.2677
>>2675Yes, although it's strange that she hangs out with girls all day.
No.2678
>>2670There is a distinction between liking girls with stereotypical male qualities and being obsessed over "tomboys". I don't post in "tomboy" threads on 4chan circlejerking with my reactionary buddies how I want to turn a "tomboy" into a traditional housewife.
No.2692
>>2678>"tomboy" threads on 4chan circlejerking with my reactionary buddies how I want to turn a "tomboy" into a traditional housewife.Golly I've this pal of mine that's all about this stupid shit via secondhand 4chan through Insta.
"uHhHH uhhh I wanna biG MOMMY MILKY TOMBOY GF at the GYM bro,
because girly girls aren't for me yaeah I prefer her to act more MANLY (uhh but not in a gay way though).
BUT SHE HAS TO BE SUBMISSIVE IN BED THOUGH.
Also I wanna IMPREGNATE her with my SEED to carry on the race.
And she'd better have long hair."
This recent fetishistic conception of "tomboyism" has lost quite literally all of its meaning,
this sublimely fetishistic object of absolute desire no longer bears any semblance of resemblance to neither the physical traits nor the characteristic traits of what one would consider to be a "tomboy."
A bigtiddy girl who acts otherwise girly but stays in shape and goes to the gym is just that, a bigtiddy girl who acts otherwise girly but stays in shape and goes to the gym.
No.2693
>>2692I think its a side effect of these things being reinforced by online echo chambers instead of actual reality. Instead of the fetishes being tempered by encounters with real people we instead of them being reinforced with other peoples fetishistic ramblings which causes them to further degenerate into a version that is further and further divorced from reality.
No.2698
I don't think it necessarily has to do with sexual fetishism. It became a fad and like everything that becomes a fad it has been reduced to its most superficial qualities. In reality "tomboy" is a broad idea with many potential variations but for the sake of marketing there must be an easily applied "stock tomboy" formula. All the same, this formula can't be too different from standard tastes or it becomes too niche and thus sells less. Because of this the "tomboy" becomes just another way to dress up the generic female character, and must not deviate from the standard functions that character is expected to serve even if the appeal of the trope lies precisely in those deviations. The end result is characters who look like tomboys but cannot act too much like tomboys.
Finally, people like us who want purer forms of the content have it increasingly hard because it gets buried under an avalanche of fakes.
That said
>>2692>because girly girls aren't for me yaeah I prefer her to act more MANLY (uhh but not in a gay way though).BUT SHE HAS TO BE SUBMISSIVE IN BED THOUGH.
I defend this. You can't control what your penis wants, it's independent from your romantic desires. In fact, isn't that part of the point of this thread? The character archetype should be separated from its sexual implications, or it just becomes another fetish.
Your friend still sounds like an autist though, who posts shit like this on Instagram? No offense.
No.2699
>>2698Yeah I too am similarly guilty of liking big tits on tomboys but to be fair I don't associate big tits with tomboys like those people I just like big tits in general and I assume the same is for you, you don't associate tomboys with sexual submissiveness but rather you like sexual submissiveness in general which I think would exclude us from the kind of people that anon was talking about who specifically associate "tomboys" with these things.
>>2690I haven't watched her anime but from the wikia description I read, yes.
No.2700
I have a friend who would never in a million years touch a tomboy with a ten feet pole yet his self-proclaimed waifu is Kyoko Kirigiri; my friend has a fetish (in the true sense of the word) for long hair. My friend fell into the similar trap as described in the OP but coming from the non-tomboy fetishism direction, "I like long hair and I don't like tomboys and long hair does not belong on a tomboy ergo Kyoko Kirigiri is not a tomboy." Let's examine the character of Kyoko Kirigiri.
Kyoko Kirigiri comes from a lineage of legendary detectives with a strict tradition. Her father refused to become a detective and was disowned by the family. Her mother died when she was young. She was raised by her grandfather who from her earliest days trained her to become a detective because he desired a successor which his son was not. He was very strict with her, keeping her socially sheltered, and as a result Kyoko became antisocial. He raised her to believe that her only worth was as a detective which caused her identity issues. So already at the start we have the trope of the (strict) father (or grandfather in this case) who treats his (grand)daughter as his (grand)son to compensate for the lack of a (worthy) (grand)son.
Kyoko is assertive, analytical, bold, emotionally reserved, antisocial and confused about her identity (the conflict between the metaphorically male way of life imposed on her vs her female self who is the spawn of a failed man).
About the only girly thing about Kyoko, ignoring her appearance, is that she has the old-fashioned preference for men doing physical work. That's it.
Tomboy, if we are not referring to some shallow usage? Absolutely.
No.2702
>>2698>Your friend still sounds like an autist though, who posts shit like this on Instagram? No offense.He doesn't post the stuff, he's just into accounts like 'fit_memes_and_greentexts' and 'barbells_and_anime_milkers,' and he'll share me shit like picsrel in dms.
And he'll also say shit like that irl.
AND he'll also unironically, wholly seriously say shit like "I want to have back muscles like baki's dad's bro."
Really shows me that the raw ideology of 4chan proliferates in its undiluted form with no need for someone to even touch the site.
But that's a bit of vent
No.2703
>>2702These images make me want to vomit.
No.2704
Reminder that being dorky/awkward is not something expected of men. I have no idea how dorky/awkward tomboys became a thing.
No.2714
>>2713In what universe is being spergy a masculine quality? Not that it's a feminine quality either (but of course it's more tolerated in women). It's "third gender" material. Tomboys aren't girls who act like this hypothetical "third gender".
No.2715
>>2714…dude, have you been on any corner of the internet that isn't a chan board lately?
where do you think that SMOL BEAN CINNAMON ROLL UWU shit comes from
No.2717
Nowadays """tomboy""" = random anime girl with short hair.
No.2745
>>2718People have types, anon.
No.2779
>>2714Overbearingly heavy interest in niche things is a masculine interest which is also spergy but its not fetishised remotely.
No.2852
>>2779Well that wasn't the way I was using spergy, more in the "mom's spaghetti" sense (awkward/dorky as mentioned).
Unrelated, have another tomboy that is never called one: Shirase Sakuya from Idolmaster. If you google "Shirase Sakuya tomboy" you will find precisely zero results.
No.2856
>>2852>Shirase Sakuya tomboyHuh… I tried that and its true sorta.
The only character listed as tomboy on TVTropes was Juri Saijo
No.2884
>>2863No, go back to the Yuri thread you horny bitch
No.2888
>>2654Excellent effortpost, we should strive to make all character more than cardboard cutouts of the trope they represent.
No.2896
>>2863I imagine if she was a character in a shoujo yuri romance she would be the assertive reverse trap with a prince-like charm.
>>2856See, she counts as a tomboy but Shirase doesn't? Is it literally because one has short hair and the other doesn't like in the OP? That's insultingly superficial.
No.4234
>>2703Those images
>>2702 make me want to coom
No.4245
>>4220It's pretty obvious, The Yuri-fag looking for Yuri in a relatively straight Tomboy thread ought to go back to their Yuri thread… that's pretty obvious yes?
No.4265
>>4623
and what's your shitty tired archetype of choice anon?
No.4286
I always thought that tomboy had an association with being particularly sporty though? At least most tomboys in the west were generally speaking into sports in some capacity.
If there is one trope that I hate is making generally thin characters fatter.
No.4288
>>4287No Patrick, Mayonnaise is not a tomboy
No.4298
>>4287Horseradish is also not a tomboy either
No.4304
>When I was a [b]wee lad[/b] I read Katawa Shoujo
I was 26 when that shit came out. The world hasn't been "normal" since 2000 everyhing has been devoid of meaning, substance, and honesty for 20 years. Zoomers grew up in the worst time and I regret that has happened, all you guys know is shit.
jfc I need to die.
No.4306
>>4304>The world hasn't been "normal" since 2000Fuck off, Shit in the 90s and 2000s was fucking great compared the past decade of sheer faggotry.
No.4326
>>4304>35 y.o. boomerAre you Jerma?
No.4563
oh no that sucks
No.4957
>>2654Speaking of Gyaru, thread
>>639 No.5070
>>2675No, she is just extroverted and unaware of her surroundings. Tard confidence/charm if you will
No.6444
bump
No.6459
>>6448Because I like this thread
Is there any character archetype theory I could read that's a bit more serious than TVTropes? I find this sort of stuff fascinating
No.8189
>>8187While that woman is overly sexualized, I'd say she's still kind of a tomboy because she seems to act and dress like a guy except for the sexy top. So Coomer's kinda right.Coomer's friend is pretty hot, he reminds me of Kaneoya Sachiko's guy(s).
No.8190
>>8187> Boobs too bigHoly based
No.8191
>>8187>>8187>>8187>>8187That's not Cockshott by there.
bolshevikBolshevik No.8248
>>8187Been Wo jackin it looks like lol
No.8273
Being passionate about physical activity isn't really being a tomboy. She didn't come off like a tomboy to me
No.8677
>>2702God, I hate this new fad of "big milker lifter tomboy for trad men". It seems like they didn't like the original tradwife thing because it was too "unreachable", so they butchered another concept so they could have something to circlejerk and fantasize about.
That account is the one I hate the most, though. It feels like watching Japanese host TV; an overdose of visual and written stimulus, begging you to get engaged and to do what the account wants you to do.
Do they lace their posts with some new virtual drug or something? Wait, that drug is called hornyness. I could keep venting about how much I hate this surface-level "tomboy" fad, but I'd prefer to prevent other character types from becoming fads, like the "introverted aspie girl" that seems to be gaining traction thanks to those Youtube meme comps.
>>2693basically this. the worst part is that some women are also playing on these online-fueled shallow fetishes, so it gives the new hoards of newcorners "hope", only spreading this shit even further. I like manly girls and lifting, but I despise this nu-tomboy and /fit/ culture mix.
yugoslaviaYugoslavia No.8678
>>2703based. Most artists that draw tomboys nowadays seem to only do it to get attention, and well, the only kind of tomboy people seem to know is the one that is being beaten like a dead horse, like
>>2702 . The worst part is that this isn't just an anglo-exclusive fad, as it's rapidly spreading into the third world, and you know how easy (reactionary) third worlders will swallow whatever trend comes from the US and then beat it even more. Also, more cumbrain and thought-dead reactionary Latino shad clones will appear to join the fad, looking for those sweet reactions and anglo fame.
One used to have a type thanks to the people you had met and the experiences you had with them, nowadays most teens (and not so teens) seem to get their types from internet overdose, going from a gold rush into another gold rush. What will happen when these "(nu)tomboy"/"catboy"/"egirl"/"tradwife"/whatever fads die? Will they develop actual tastes and likes, or will they just join another circlejerk that inundates the rest of the internet?
yugoslaviaYugoslavia No.8687
>>8677Based anon, I totally agree with you. I feel that Latin American artists also eat the scraps of Anglo internet fads because it's profitable, whether they do it consciously or not.
Also, aren't tomboys supposed to be girls who do things or have a personality that is unexpected of girls, including an aversion or disinterest in romance. The appeal used to be that they're "not like the other girls", so why would a fit girl with massive, partially exposed tits who is willing to become a sweet tradwife to the first coomer that crosses their path be a tomboy? Jesus, the tits alone are a massive contradiction, because it's obvious that such feminine body is the main appeal to these people, not the boyishness. So, ok, you like fit girls who are feminine on the inside, and that's all you need to fall in love with such a character. But that's like the opposite of a tomboy, who by definition must be masculine on the inside.
>>2779>its not fetishised remotely.lmao
Besides what should be the well-known fact that everything and everyone is someone's fetish, both "spergy, overbearingly heavy interest in niche things" and "awkward/dorky" are massively popular traits.
No.8692
>>8677>I'd prefer to prevent other character types from becoming fadsRespectable, but ultimately even those archetypes that don't become trends will fall prey to universal moefication. All anime women will eventually be reduced to easily embarrassed, subservient, barely functional, childish autists, distinguished only by superficial traits dedicated to fetishistic appeal. Terrifying collages of huge eyes, melon-sized tits and childlike shrieking will roam the land and to great applause, because Miyazaki's much memed-about point was ultimately correct: anime fans and creators hate reality and can take nothing from it; with a few exceptions, anime has no path forward but to exaggerate itself.
And then we'll be forced to get real girlfriends.
No.8722
>>8687The average weeb lives in constant contradiction not only about his superficial likes, but also about his identity. So you can expect them to not know what they really want. No amount of Barbells or reps will make you actually think why you love telling everyone that you have this cool new fetish, or what it might be reflecting from yourself. Do they want a gender role non-conforming girl, or they just want someone to love them that isn't "like the rest of thots" and more like a mail bride?
Also, how 3rd world (specially SEA/Latino) artists are the ones that fuel these stupid Anglo/USian fetish gold rushes could be another post on itself. Have you heard of "I'm not like the other girls?" Then well, this is what happens on most art communities from developing countries.
Thousands of loner boys and girls fed with no-context badly translated reactionary BS from the west, get bashed or banned from bigger and more liberal leaning artist groups because of their shallow art that rides on the latest trend from those videos (like """"cancelled""" characters), and then they join communities (or better said, circlejerks) where they can post their "cool" art and be rewarded with praises, and how they're so counterculture for drawing degen shit. They're all no-substance copies of Shadman or whatever the cool artist of the year is, and the only reason they do "art" is because they're looking for reactions. And when they learn english… Oh boy.
Many of them have zero sense of identity too, and usually think of their local art scene as "leftist/commie/liberal/sjw trash", never even try to learn a thing about their country's artistic history, so the only thing they know is their own interpretation of how Japanese art is supposed to be, and that's what they wanna do. No thoughts behind it. They can't reason, they can't accept criticism, as they've lived on a circlejerk their whole lives, so they'll be doing the same shit every single day until their safe space "falls down" (or just gets people that are into drawing what they like but aren't into the circlejerk)
yugoslaviaYugoslavia No.8723
>>8692Sadly. It's hard to look at most anime communities when you're growing up mentally, as it seems like most of them try to push you downwards, going trend after trend "with the boys", telling on how you're not able to get any puss or female affection not because you're an insufferable twat but because you prefer not to talk to "normies", etcetera. I think Dragon Maid's new season, for example, is a good example of
>with a few exceptions, anime has no path forward but to exaggerate itselfand how braindead anime fans will defend this because they have no critical thought but rather a shared malfunctioning braincell. A 6yo with a bland design and two melons? Why do you think that it's cool? Because it "offends sjws"?
Thank God I got to know this website. If I kept roaming around on reactionary anime circles (IB and non-IB specific), I'd be probably repeating their same nonsense.
yugoslaviaYugoslavia No.9148
>>8678Why single out third world artists?
>>8722>never even try to learn a thing about their country's artistic history, so the only thing they know is their own interpretation of how Japanese art is supposed to beWhy would they learn their country's artistic history? Anime artists aren't known for being into 'high' art
No.9149
>>9148>Why single out third world artists?They might live in the third world (like me) so they probably know what they're talking about when they say that third world porn artists are just disgusting Shadman clones (for some reason they can't copy objectively better artists).
No.9151
>>9149>be less skilled>"lol shadclone"guess every less skilled porn artist is now a shadclone
No.9166
>>9151>less skilledThey're actually better than Shadman in many cases but it's all wasted on trying to copy his disgusting style (facial expressions, colors, lines, even shading and those greyish shadows that make skin look dirty) and on drawing random meme porn waifu of the week like him. They're clearly not "less skilled", just intentionally trying to copy his success, because Shadman's shit is popular in Latin America as you can see in the comments on his site.
t. artist
>>8723>Thank God I got to know this website. If I kept roaming around on reactionary anime circles (IB and non-IB specific), I'd be probably repeating their same nonsense.Don't get too excited, this site has been getting shittier due to reactionaries and other dumbasses raiding and then staying on /b/ and /leftypol/.
No.9177
>>9166>staying on /b/ and /leftypol/Haven't seen much of that, mods keep on the less offensive ones around to shit on them.
>shadman copying He's easy to copy and porn makes money in this degenerate capitalist system.
No.9217
>>8187Holy kek how did I miss this shit?
>>7440How?
No.9218
>>2702I feel like these images are basically sexualizing and fetishizing to the maximum ]the relationship concept of characters like Carl and Ellie in "Up", where the roughhousing tomboy of a girl and a boy who play as children, grow up, fall in love and continue to enjoy their active somewhat odd life while also having a comfortable loving household as well. The difference is that these people's brains have wires crossed, between their want for "big mommy milkers" and "wholesome relationship" and in between that is a want for a friend who can also be like "one of the boys" on top of that.
No.9273
>>8692>And then we'll be forced to get real girlfriends.Big implication. The entire premise to otaku culture and the sole reason why it is the beacon of creativity catered to males is the fact that these men aren't bounded at all by females, or even their existence. Essentially, they are the furthest things for simps you could feasibly become in the modern world.
A startling percentage of indie webcomics have been ruined from female involvement, usually through meddling wives. This happens even to a lesser extent with certain manga authors who couldn't take the heat, and I can only assume that this is the same exact mechanism that leads to the ruin of male pandering comics and cartoons.
The artfags of old in japan have long since been dead (metaphorically and literally), the decades long recessions brought about by US legislators bought by automobile companies are to blame. Otaku culture is the sole reason your beloved medium has survived past the 90s and for as long as it has. Miyazaki and whipped westerners can whine all they want, but they have never been relevant for as long as it mattered.
I do agree with OP in the sense that certain fetishists, along with OP himself, are cancerous individuals that are ignorant of the medium and the ecosystem that it fosters, and sustains it. Women have always been objectified, sexualized and reduced to tropes in the medium, despite any plot and narratives it may incidentally provide. There are shows that by some fluke get made without such women (much fewer than you'd think), but make no mistake these shows only existed with the help of sexualized women, perhaps indirectly through other shows that aren't niche/flops that help to sustain the industry it calls home.
The act of reducing women to mere tropes is not a recent fad, it is a staple of the culture and the medium as we know it, although much more brazen and done with decreasing subtlety over time. This could be little girls, piss, foreigners/halfs, animal ears, little sisters, *dere, moe traits or any other trope you fervently dislike.
I'd say the shallowness of the execution of this trope in the past few years is twofold, one is the lack of plot and meaningful message in most shows that aren't sol (due to the lack of fucks given to sugarcoating their fetish stories as mentioned), and the invasion of normals both in the west and more crucially in japan, brought about by the increasing adoption of twitter and the culture war with boomers that the otakus "won" not too long ago.
The fetishes they bring along blur the lines of reality even more, with tropes like gyaru, eceleb, whatever a normal would prefer, and the shift from mix of sexual and romantic interest to purely sexual. I'd say this is also the reason weeaboo culture has exploded internationally, but that's a different issue. These new fetishes would, being much more grounded in reality, more easily confuse normals, who already lack the proper ability to distinguish fact from fiction. Naturally, this also makes the elephant in the room harder for the "failed normalfags" to ignore.
No.9274
>>9273 >these men aren't bounded at all by females Unless you're talking about pre-90s era Otakus you're lying. Otaku's since the mid-90s have generally been (correctly) associated with loser Hikki-NEET waifu-fag people, with very few Otaku (mostly oldfags) having any sense of class and culture. It's not even like Nerds or Geeks in the West, but straight up social rejects.
>indie webcomics have been ruined from female involvement Sounds more like WN artists being retards who can't handle their wives/girlfriends and cowtow to them
>they are the furthest things for simps <[Waifu-fags] are the furthest thing from simps In a way, given how they seem to loathe and fear real life women, due to the impractical and often bland expectations that have been set by most modern anime. And no, wanting a "big tiddy /fit/ goth tomboy gf" is not any less shallow, since it's just throwing together vague/simplistic cultural and sexual preferences.
>exact mechanism that leads to the ruin of male pandering comics and cartoons Comics and cartoons in the West are fucked over because of liberal idpol dominating the social sphere and so the market, it has nothing to do with "women ruining it" but ideological faggotry, because unlike in the old days, the new 'bosses' don't just hand a project to the creators to make a cultural work for sale (thus allowing both profitable and creative works to come out, but constantly meddle in the process as well.
>Otaku culture is the sole reason your beloved medium has survived past the 90s Anime survived the 90s because of shonen and seinen shows like One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Inuyasha, Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z becoming popular in the West and bringing in a new market along side more esoteric but popular things like GiTS, Akira, Fist of the North Star etc.
>Miyazaki is whiningWhen you spend your life creating something (let alone cultural benchmarks) I think you have a right to complain about the lifestyle you've lived and about how it's degenerated, especially when he's absolutely correct about it.
>they have never been relevant for as long as it mattered<Miyazaki, Osshi etc. have never been relevant<the people who essentially created the best anime of their time and in general "were never relevant" <The Western Market, which saved the collapsing Japanese economy in general and anime studios in particular isn't relevant You have the socio-economic comprehension of a gnat.
>Women have always been objectified, sexualized and reduced to tropes in the medium This is applicable to every character in anime male or female, it is not endemic to females, but merely more obvious, Tropes exist in every bit of culture and society, to the point where even defying a trope, is a trope in itself.
The difference being made is that in the past, besides the beauty and femininity of women being 'objectified' characters at least had some depth and weren't paper cut-outs, that 90% of anime today tend to be because they're shitty, 1 season SoL Moeshit. That's a changed trend in comparison to the 90s and 2000s, heck you even point that out yourself.
No.9276
>>9274>Unless you're talking about pre-90s era Otakus you're lying.Well I thought it was obvious I was referring to IRL females, not 2D. Not sure how them being social rejects has anything to do with this either.
>WN artists being retards who can't handle their wives/girlfriends and cowtow to them Basically. Not that I follow the WN scene or anything
>And no, wanting a "big tiddy /fit/ goth tomboy gf" is not any less shallow, since it's just throwing together vague/simplistic cultural and sexual preferences. I agree, weeaboos are a cancer. On top of what you said, wanting a gf that conforms to 2D standards is conflating fantasy with reality.
>Comics and cartoons in the West … has nothing to do with "women ruining it" but ideological faggotry, because unlike in the old days, the new 'bosses' don't just hand a project to the creators to make a cultural work for sale (thus allowing both profitable and creative works to come out, but constantly meddle in the process as well.I'd say that the bosses are way more lenient than they used to be with regards to censorship/etc. Sure there's a preference towards certain profitable ideologies nowadays, but before that (around 5-10 years ago) there has already been rampant nepotism (the calarts meme) and a general perversion of works that didn't fit the politics they were going for.
>Anime survived the 90s because of shonen and seinen shows like One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Inuyasha, Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z becoming popular in the West and bringing in a new market along side more esoteric but popular things like GiTS, Akira, Fist of the North Star etc. I'm not convinced that the international market especially the ones back then were large enough to actually make an impact on spending and investment, let alone how authors write. Based on the data I've seen thrown around off-handedly, at least.
>When you spend your life creating something (let alone cultural benchmarks) I think you have a right to complain about the lifestyle you've lived and about how it's degenerated, especially when he's absolutely correct about it. He's not wrong and he has the right to bitch about it (like everybody does), I just don't think it's fair when you consider that the medium no longer has the freedom to produce animation as easily as they used to, considering factors like a higher bar for quality, recession and deflation and poorer purchasing power, market saturation and more. It's easy to dream and be idealistic when you ignore all the tiny cogs and details that make it all work.
><Miyazaki, Osshi etc. have never been relevant><the people who essentially created the best anime of their time and in general "were never relevant" ><The Western Market, which saved the collapsing Japanese economy in general and anime studios in particular isn't relevant "Best anime" as determined by award commitees and the western market aren't as relevant as you think it is. There is no doubt that the money they brought in helped to sustain certain studios that catered to such an audience, but this is not the same market as those who watch "anime", which itself largely overlaps with manga, LN, VN, franchising and not studios making blockbusters. So yeah, it's not relevant. I disagree that "The Western Market" saved japan's economy. Much of japan's superpower status could be attributed to their dominance in southeast asia, and I don't see how animation exports alone could save an economy either.
>heck you even point that out yourself.I did, my point was that the industry which has historically trended towards moving the overton window over to complete objectification of females might have gone a little too far when it began to sacrifice the elements needed for good storytelling like themes, character development and more.
No.9277
>>9276Skipping to the parts where I have something to say, since we're in agreement at this point
>bosses are way more lenient than they used to be with regards to censorship This is true, what I mean is that they're much more restrictive in terms of actual content in regards to plot and characters (in Western comics/cartoons) promoting liberal ideology and spamming idpol to the great dislike of /co/ and the average cartoon-viewer. It's more likely for a show to be low-brow and stuffed with memes, and retarded shit (like Steven Universe for example) than anything worth a damn (like the 2011 Thundercats)
>efore that (around 5-10 years ago) I mean that's what I'm referring to, but even in the early 2010s most cartoons and comics were largely apolitical or subtle and at least tried to have quality of some kind. This has less to do with women and more a general cancerous liberalism of the predominant porky-supported social sphere in the West.
>not convinced that the international market Oldfag here, it was. You're forgetting that Japan is a small country compared to the USA, and it's population and so market is limited, exporting to the USA suddenly brought a market of 200 million people to buy their products, especially since the Japanese companies were collapsing in the 90s due to their privatization failings and were snapped up into Western 'alliances'. That's also why Toyotas and Hondas began to supercede American cars in the US market during the 90s. Second only to Harry Potter (and maybe MLP), Naruto has the biggest fanbase on the internet even today, followed by DBZ and other shonen that quickly overtook the American Market. shit like Beyblade, Yu Gi Yoh and Pokemon/Digimon were massive fads of the mid 90s/early 2000s and the Japanese anime industry rose to meet the demand, and with how popular isekai and moe-blob things got in the late 2000s, the restored corporations capitalized on this weebtrap.
Also as a side note, Evangelion is a perfect example anime for this whole process - it arose in the mid 90s during the collapse and was essentially a cheap anime that was expected to be a mediocre success, like an extended OVA series, but because of how Anno and his crew's depression and projected thoughts and ideas turned it into a lament of human problems (including the spiralling cesspit of Otaku) it became a cultural phenomenon, ESPECIALLY since the Western Market blew up it's popularity, which later resulted in the shitty Rebuilds.
>the medium no longer has the freedom to produce animation as easily as they used to Are you referring to market pressures? Because animation wise, computer technology has only made it easier, even for 2d/hand-drawn stuff. Market wise, Miyazaki's view is based on the actions of his own time, when high-school/college protests and animators standing their ground against corporate big bosses, while today they just go with the trend and allow themselves to get worked to death and underpaid while also not getting to make anything worth a damn
>determined by award commitees I agree
>Western market It's a larger market and is relied upon. Why do you think Light Novels sold in the USA are priced at 12-15 bucks while in Japan they sell for 3-6 dollars (in Yen equivalent)
>those who watch "anime", which itself largely overlaps with manga, LN, VN, franchising and not studios making blockbusters /a/ is a more expansive market, but they also love high-brow movies and stuff from Ghibli and other productions, so it still matters.
>japan's superpower status could be attributed to their dominance in southeast asiaWhich was acquired through American Imperialism and their grip on their SE Asian vassal states. Remember Japan is essentially a US puppet.
>ow animation exports alone could save an economy No the Western Market in general saved the Japanese economy and anime was among those things that grew the economy, see the animators thread to see how much a CEO makes vs an animator. Also I should correct both of us, Japan technically didn't save itself, as on the over-all economic scale since 1995, Japan's economy has been stagnating and declining in terms of GDP, interest rates and other economic factors. While I loathe wikipedia, it does a decent job talking about the economic collapse it is in (just take some statements with salt)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades_(Japan)>my point was that the industry which has historically trended towards moving the overton window over to complete objectification of females might have gone a little too far when it began to sacrifice the elements needed for good storytelling like themes, character development and more. I agree, and in fact so does Miyazaki, which is why I'm confused as to why you dismissed him when his statements affirm your point.
No.9359
>>9307Things like Ghibli and "normie" Japanese cartoons should be considered an entirely different kind of animation. Those aren't considered otaku shit by the general population.
>>9273>The entire premise to otaku culture and the sole reason why it is the beacon of creativity catered to males is the fact that these men aren't bounded at all by females, or even their existence.>Well I thought it was obvious I was referring to IRL females, not 2D. Not sure how them being social rejects has anything to do with this either.New anime is shittier because it's made by otaku to pander to other otaku who are detached from reality (and because that's how it is in the capitalist system, everything degenerates for the sake of maximum profit). So them not being "bounded at all by (real) females" does not result in higher quality or a "beacon of creativity". Yes, it is catered to males, but the dogshit that 3D-hating otaku make nowadays isn't exactly "creative".
Also no one ever mentioned "simps". What do you even mean by that? Being attracted to real women, as opposed to thinking about 2D women 24/7? Otaku social rejects are extremely alienated and don't successfully develop social skills which, most of the time, results in them being lonely and losing all hope of experiencing romance, so they retreat into their fantasies while rejecting reality as much as they can (which is a natural reaction). I don't get how this is supposed to have a positive impact on the quality of anime. Male-pandering works were better when the men creating them were in touch with reality and even had contact with real women, but then again the industry was also relatively new and allowed for more creativity.
>>9277> exporting to the USA suddenly brought a market of 200 million people to buy their products,Let's not forget that Japan has been exporting anime and video games to the whole world for decades but especially since the 90s like you said. Not just the US; anime is huge in other coutries too.
No.9362
>>2712>gender isn't immune to cultural change.The fuck are you talking about, Tomboy isn't a gender you twit, that's like saying a Gyaru is a gender. It's a character defined by certain masculine behaviors by otherwise normal girls. You sound like those awful people who spam "egg" at any male interested in girly things.
No.9373
>>9362I mean, yes, tomboys are defined by what's considered "masculine" and what's considered "normal" for girls at the time. Tomboy isn't a gender, but it's shaped by gender.
No.9375
>>9372No it isn't Patrick.
>>9373>isn't a gender>shaped by gender Well yes.
No.9458
Could the same be said for "tomgirls", or whatever boys who have "feminine", as defined under current hegemony, characteristics get called?
No.9461
>>9458Tomgirl is a much more recent term than tomboy though, and so it's characteristics are by definition the reverse of Tomboy but for some reason feels a bit tasteless, probably because tomgirl tends to be used mostly in a sexual tone every time it's used, a fetishized termin for girly-boys that arose probably because "trap" has become a bit old and liberals get their panties in a twist over it and "Nancy" is too old for most Zoomers on the internet to even be aware of.
No.9464
Speaking of Otakushit and their fetishisms I stumbled across this site (below) recently and I'm stuck nostalgic joy for early 2000s graphic design of the site - finally something that isn't the flat phone-oriented shit I see all the time - and disgust at it basically being yet another Otaku fetish sale site. Opinions?
https://home.gamer.com.tw/creationDetail.php?sn=1509457 No.9481
>I do agree with OP in the sense that certain fetishists, along with OP himself, are cancerous individuals that are ignorant of the medium and the ecosystem that it fosters, and sustains it.
states he agrees with OP
states OP has no clue
wew lad
No.9668
>>9660mega cringeSporty tomboys are just one kind of tomboy but they're the one type that represents the "tomboy" fetish. Sad.
No.9702
>>9668>didn't even read the text<autistically focused on the passing sports mentionpathetic, and yeah sports is a pretty common part of Tomboy aesthetic.
No.9705
>>2654I feel like you've said what I've thought of all this time. Can't agree more with you.
It's sad to see how (usually reactionary) weebs turned a nice archetype into a soulless cirlcejerk.
I'm so goddamn tired of those "I NEED LE TOMBOY LE GYM LE TRAD GF PLEASE SHE HAS TO BE MANLY BUT SUBMISSIVE WHEN I DARE TO SPEAK", gymcel-core weebs are no different than their Leddit "le cinnamon big booba booga milker fang" counterpart.
No.9713
>>9702><autistically focused on the passing sports mention>passing mentionIt's part of the whole pasta. Fights, sports, kung-fu, tanlines, toned body, etc…
There are other types of tomboys that don't involve any of these things. Like nerdy tomboys for example.
No.9716
>>9713>It's part of the whole pastaYes, a PART.
>There are other types of tomboys that don't involve any of these things Did you read the OP about tomboy starting to mean nothing or are you actually this dumb? A tomboy is a girl who behaves and does things that are traditionally masculine. A nerdy girl is a nerdy girl, nothing tomboy about it.
No.9717
>>9716>A nerdy girl is a nerdy girl, There are feminine ones and masculine ones. Also being a nerd is traditionally seen as a boyish thing, just like being into sports. For a girl to be a tomboy she doesn't necessarily have to be into the latter.
No.9718
>>9716Oh, and also, OP actually said this:
>As the years went by I found myself highly attracted to 2D girls with varying types of what are culturally seen as masculine qualities. Like the aforementioned athletic, bold, energetic, likes to play rough but also aggressive, assertive, emotionally reserved, brash, vulgar, messy, short-tempered, rhetorical, analytical, philosophical, gluttonous, as lustful as a man and so on. In other words, women who behave like the worst and best of male cultural stereotypes. Do they "look" like tomboys? Some do. But even then I have nothing in common with the pathetic fetishists, the most egregious and possibly loudest of which circlejerk over 2D girls who only "look" like tomboys and otherwise do not deviate much from the assumed average girl who on top of that unironically fantasize about turning said "tomboy" into a traditional 1950s cooking, breeding and raising servant (read: wife). No.9719
>>9717>There are feminine ones and masculine onesThat's not how it works MFW. A Nerd by definition isn't masculine, they're literally the "brain over brawns" stereotype, and while you have nerds who are also sportive, that's not the same shit. A tomboy nerd doesn't exist. A Tomboy may engage in "nerdy" things, but that's not the main part of their behavior.
>>9718Nerdiness has never been seen as a masculine quality, it's been about brains vs brawn and utterly ungendered, a girl or boy can be a nerd. You can't be a macho and not be either a male or a female acting like a male (tomboy). Capiche?
No.9723
>>9719It seems that you still think of "tomboys" as a fetish. When in fact what makes a girl a tomboy is her stereotypically masculine personality (as described by OP), which may or may not be reflected in her appearance. The pasta screencaps you posted describe a tomboy because of this, although the interest in physical activity like sports and combat could be replaced by any other traditionally masculine interest and it wouldn't change the fact that she's a tomboy.
And yes, being a hardcore nerd has been seen as a mostly male thing for decades. There are even fools who think that women cannot be nerds. Chances are that you've seen female anime characters who always act and look like a sterotypical
male otaku, those would also be tomboys since they're not feminine nor do they care about girly stuff; the old otaku stereotype in Japan is a young adult male with a plain and messy appearance who is a loser. You may not agree, and such characters might not count as tomboys because of that, but "tomboy" is relative, as you can see.
Of course, over time and across cultures, what's associated with masculinity and femininity changes, so the idea of what a tomboy is like also changes. For example, it is no longer considered weird for women to be interested in fitness or to wear jeans so those things alone aren't enough to call someone a tomboy anymore (a stronger indicator would be, for example, getting into a sport that is still viewed as exclusively male like hockey, or preferring shitty baggy jeans as opposed to sexy skinny jeans). More women are cutting their hair short like a boy, which is being normalized, so that's not enough by itself to tell, either. Thus, the lines begin to blur.
The problem with trying to define a tomboy is that gender roles and sterotypes are mostly bullshit. If you agree with this, and avoid associating preferences and personality traits with either gender accordingly, it becomes more difficult to think of tomboys (or yourself, if you're a tomboy) as "special" and not like just another woman. Think of the difference between "it's so cute when a tomboy wears girly clothes and gets all embarrassed and uncomfortable" (or, if you're a tomboy, "I hate wearing dresses because they're girly, and it's embarrassing when I feel girly") vs. "she doesn't really like wearing dresses, I guess everybody has their own clothing preferences". The concept of "tomboy" exists as long as you believe in gender stereotypes, and depends on what your idea of masculine and feminine is.
No.9724
>>9723This lol. Don't get stuck with coomer brain.
No.9727
>>9723>This fucking diatribeSheesh, dial back the amphetamines m8, having to reply to this is a headache… that might have been the intent though.
TL;DR: Tomboy's definition is based on inverting gender roles and their traditional Gender Roles are based on biological traits and material realities and so remain legitimate regardless of capitalism's trying to dilute them. Being a Nerd or Otaku is not a traditional or majority lifestyle of males and so doesn't apply to Tomboy unless you're just playing fetishist. Being an "Otaku" may involve more men than women but that's still a small portion of the population, most Otaku are men, but most men are not Otaku, capiche?
Longtext:
>It seems that you still think of "tomboys" as a fetishNo, precisely the opposite. Tomboy has a set definition. A (straight) girl behaving like a traditionally masculine male. While the definition of masculine can vary somewhat, Nerdiness, which is ungendered does not apply to this definition.
Seriously the very fact that you have to say "Nerd Tomboy" already makes it nonsensical, when Tomboy is description, it's like saying "a Nerd Jock".
>which may or may not be reflected in her appearanceYes, BUT commonly a tomboy will dress as a guy too, mostly because doing sports or rough-housing in a dress/skirt is at minimum inconvenient.
>the interest in physical activity like sports and combat could be replaced by any other traditionally masculine interestYes, no shit. Nerdiness is not a traditionally masculine interest, seriously, are we now twisting the meaning of Nerd too?
>being a hardcore nerd has been seen as a mostly male thing for decades The fuck it has. Have you watched any 80s and 90s movie (let alone lived in that time)? Nerds aren't all boys or girls, being a social group of their own, not a gendered behavioral type.
>here are even fools who think that women cannot be nerds.Modern day incels from /pol/ are not nerds, being a Nerd =/= being a Hikki-NEET.
Additionally even if your claim of Nerds being mostly male as true, that's not a masculine trait. Gender Roles are important part of the definition of Tomboys, but being a Nerd is not a gender role. there are very clear biological and behavioral differences between men and women, which determined the same basic gender roles in many unrelated cultures and civilizations. Being a Nerd remains a modern behavior with no relevance to gender, or do you imply girls aren't smart too?
>seen female anime characters who always act and look like a stereotypical male otaku Yes, but being an Otaku is not primarily a male trait. You cannot tell me that Tomoko is a Tomboy.
>old otaku stereotype in Japan is a young adult male with a plain and messy appearance who is a loser. That's a cultural stereotype, partially from how Japan's society treats women. Regardless, Otaku are not a majority or common male behavior over all, it's a niche, with little to do with masculinity. Nobody in their right mind would call them masculine.
>what's associated with masculinity and femininity changes True, but some basal traits of masculinity and femininity remain over time, arising in separate cultures repeatedly.
>it is no longer considered weird for women to be interested in fitness That hasn't been weird in a while, what has remained weird is female weight lifters and other heavy exercises; like it or not, women are biologically weaker than men physically, which matters especially as adults.
>More women are cutting their hair short like a boyNot a lot of girls cut their hair as short as men: there's a lot of difference between say a bob-cut and crew-cut. Most non-black women who cut their hair really short are often stereotypical dyke lesbians. It is not a common hair style even today outside of African cultures (which is dictated by their eternally curly hair and the phenotypical adaptations against the heat in Africa).
Regardless, the traditional idea of femininity that comes to mind remains fairly the same, regardless of most trends.
>trying to define a tomboy is that gender roles and sterotypes are mostly bullshitwrong
>avoid associating preferences and personality traits with either gender There are neutral traits, feminine traits and masculine traits, it's not that hard to accept, and there is no reason to dilute them by muddling and expanding set definitions for no reason. A character may not be a tomboy, and that's fine, no need to pigeonhole every character into a single over-stretched archetype.
>"she doesn't really like wearing dresses, I guess everybody has their own clothing preferences" Which is both boring and inaccurate. The point of that was simple - going out and fooling around and doing new things, that's what younger people do when they hang out - push boundaries and probe the uncomfortable. Also, most people dress according to social trends and what is popular, consciously or subconsciously following trends. It's rare for a person to wear clothes purely out of preference - thus we see the current obsession with wearing Yoga Pants everywhere, leaving little to the imagination of anyone who sees.
>The concept of "tomboy" exists as long as you believe in gender stereotypes Belief is irrelevant, Gender as a social construct remains legitimate because it reflects a material reality. Capitalism tries to muddy the water in regards to this, because denying the differences and unique traits with women and men furthers capitalism's ideology by promoting a nigh-robotic featurelessness. Gender Roles are also not hard-set, individuals can still defy these roles without anulling their existence, they're not absolute rules.
PS
>skinny jeans <uncomfortable unimaginative ugly fashion <sexy <because it shows all but every little bit of the lower half. Shit taste. The point of clothes is to cover yourself, might as well just wear nothing and show off the goods straight up. Inb4 "sexist" IMO it applies to men too.
No.9728
>>9724LOL wut, did you even read the post?
No.9737
>>9735>saging<missing the point Your point, hidden in that diatribe of yours, is that
Tomboys aren't just sporty, and its "Sad" that they represent Tomboys… what about [X] Tomboys!? Then you go on some tangent about how Otaku and Nerds have a lot of males in their groups and so that's also masculine today.
Just… just stop.
No.9753
>>2667Japan didn't create the word and definition of Tomboy. And even then That's still not the same as "muh dorky Tomboy" or something.
No.9755
I find it weird how a new(er) weeb term has been created for a specific form of tomboys who live as men, reverse trap; This refers to a Tomboy who essentially disguises themselves as a boy, essentially reversing the whole "disguised as a girl" thing that traps have. The problem is, traps are 90% of the time just sexual bait, they usually don't dress in formal dresses and clothing, its mostly miniskirts and other revealing, risqué stuff. Reverse traps usually dress normally.
In other words: A reverse trap, also known as a Bifauxnen (a portmanteau of Bishōnen and faux, meaning false in French), is simply a girl who resembles a boy. Conversely, what is commonly referred to as a "trap" by the English speaking audience of anime simply refers to a boy who has the qualities of a girl, or otherwise known as a Bishōnen.
An example of such a character from a typical anime would be Draco the DragoNewt from Monster Musume (pic 2). An accidental reverse trap would be Irina Shidou from High School DxD (Issei's childhood friend who he thought was a boy). A Western-Chinese example would be Fa Mulan.
No.9757
>>2702>pic 3Fetishization aside, why would the TOMBOY be the one wearing that shirt? Is SHE looking to impregnate and gain "milkies" from a tomboy? Is she a futa or something? 'Cause the point of the text is to represent the shirt wearer. Whoever made this really didn't think that image through.
>inb4 "the speech bubble says it's anon's shirt" The speech bubble could say anything you want, that low-cut wide shirt is definitely not a male sleeveless (t.sleeveless clothing owner).
No.9769
>>9757Sugoi Dekai? More like Suckoi Dickai!
anyway Uzaki-chan post analysis
>>3015 No.9839
>>9737>Then you go on some tangent about how Otaku and Nerds have a lot of males in their groups and so that's also masculine today. Holy fucking shit. Motherfucker, there was a time when nerds were considered male only, and yes, geeky stuff was (and probably still is) considered to be men's thing. It does not matter that most men aren't nerds, what matters is that it's seen as an exclusively male activity/subculture, something that women aren't expected to do at all, but isn't considered weird for men to get into (of course,
this is different depending on place and time which means this might not be the case where you live and in the time you were raised). Do you get it now? Most men aren't into weightlifting either, yet it's seen as a male-only activity. Yes, being physically active is in fact the main thing associated with tomboys, but it isn't the only thing that is considered "natural" of men but not women, nor the only thing that can make one a tomboy. OP already mentioned some other traits that are associated with masculinity rather than femininity. I'm not the only person who thinks like this, it was a pretty popular opinion before "tan short-haired muscle girl tomboy" became the fetish fad it is today, and I'm sure that many people still agree with my (correct) definition.
Remember, a tomboy is defined by how women are expected to behave or what they're supposed to be into (whether it is "based on biology" or not). If a woman prefers to act "like a guy" instead of "like a girl" she's a tomboy, it's that fucking simple. She doesn't even need to be energetic or whatever, as long as she talks "like a man". Any woman who identifies and/or hangs out more with men than other women might also be a tomboy, especially if she hates everything that is "feminine".
But hey, man, if you want to change the definition from "a girl who does things that aren't expected from a girl but from a boy" to "a type of short-haired sporty girl who makes my dick hard", then go for it. It's actually pretty cool that you think all those things aren't tied to any one gender.
>>9755>A reverse trap, also known as a Bifauxnen (a portmanteau of Bishōnen and faux, meaning false in French), is simply a girl who resembles a boyIt's not that simple. The point of a "bifauxnen", as the name suggests, is that they're girls who look like a bishonen (美少年), which is a "pretty boy" like Cloud Strife, the cast from Free!, most guys found in BL, etc.: beautiful, androgynous face, (which is what 美 "bi" refers to) but still obviously (young) males, (which is what the 少年 "shonen" part means). These girls may or may not be indistinguishable from a guy at first. If a girl resembled a hideous guy, for example, she wouldn't be a bifauxnen.
>Conversely, what is commonly referred to as a "trap" by the English speaking audience of anime simply refers to a boy who has the qualities of a girl, or otherwise known as a Bishōnen.lmao who wrote this definition? I see it reposted on a lot of sites. Bishonen aren't traps, holy shit (they can be, depending on how feminine they are, but the two are not synonyms). Besides, traps appeal mostly to males, while bishonen practically exist for the female part of an audience.
Traps/otokonoko have a similar appeal to that of dickgirls/newhalves: biologically, they are male and have a penis, but otherwise they are so feminine that unless you are specifically told they're male, or see their genitals, they're indistinguishable from the average pretty girl, and if you didn't know better you would immediately assume they're one, that's why they're called "traps": the idea is that they "trap" you into desiring them sexually under the assumption that they're female, then the gender reveal happens, and in fiction this is meant to be humorous (nowadays, this is done as a fetish, however, so in anime and hentai they're
advertised as traps). They may also use girly pronouns (in Japanese, something like "atashi") to refer to themselves, or otherwise have a girly style of speech in general.
On the other hand, most bishonen are masculine enough that you usually would never think they're girls (you would probably assume they're gay guys instead); it might be hard to tell their gender in some cases, and in extremely rare cases you'll mistake them for a woman. They almost always use masculine or sometimes neutral (slightly feminine) pronouns for themselves, and a neutral or masculine style of speech.
You could say that traps go
beyond bishonen in terms of femininity, and instead of remaining ambiguous/androgynous they go for the extreme opposite and become completely feminine. On paper, the difference between trap and bishie is "slightly different amounts of femininity and masculinity", but in practice this makes a huge difference: they're usually designed for different audiences, and have vastly different appeals. For this reason, reverse traps are very common in girls' media (see pics 1 and 2; also old shojo works like The Rose of Versailles), since girls tend to be attracted to the masculine and androgynous traits that a reverse trap shares with bishonen (regular traps also exist in girls' media but they're definitely done in a very different, more tasteful way than how traps for men are done; see pics 3 and 4). Another reason is that Takarazuka Revue musicals, where women play both male and female roles (and the ones who play male roles are trained to act and talk like men all the time), are so popular among girls that they've had a tremendous influence on shojo manga and consequently also many other kinds of women's media in Japan, so those works will often have a female character with the same appeal.
More info on bifauxnen:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BifauxnenYour examples are correct though. Some "reverse traps" are also examples of tomboys who aren't necessarily into physical activities like sports or combat.
Also that first pic of yours.
>Traps are gay>Reverse traps aren't gayAbsolute retardation. If you're a man who likes masculine traits and that's why you're attracted to reverse traps, you might be gay or bi. Same if you're a woman who likes reverse traps but you might also be straight. If you like 'em because you're a man and find reverse traps cute in a feminine way, or because you want to "bring out their feminine side", or whatever, you might not be gay. It really depends on what you like about traps/reverse traps and why you like them. So sick of this idiotic meme debate about whether "traps are gay" or not that actually ends up turning into internet culture wars (like your pic for example, or the "tomboy summer" shit /pol/fags tried to force even here). No one ever comes to any conclusion because it's different for everybody.
Sorry for ranting about that but this stupid shit shows up wherever I go, in fact I just had to deal with it this morning too. And it's always guys who bring it up, oddly enough…
No.9869
>>9839>saging again to avoid replyAre you actually this much of a faggot?
No.9872
>>9839>there was a time when nerds were considered male only LOL when? Nerds have been pretty inclusive for decades, since at least the mid 70s, and for the majority of the time the termin existed.
>Geeky stuff is a man's thingLOL no, cope harder, nerdiness was only "cool" in teen movies of the mid 80s and 90s, and even then was considered to be dorky.
>what matters is that it's seen as an exclusively male activity/subcultureExcept it isn't. It also doesn't make it typical masculine behavior either, since the actual activity has nothing to ith male-exclusive content. Sports, Weight-lifting, Martial Arts, Bar-hopping etc. are considered 'masculine' because typically women have a hard time getting involved, a man will generally outperform the average woman in these regards, by mere fact of being biologically male (which is why IRL there is such debate about 'trans' Athletes in women's sports).
>something that women aren't expected to do at allAbsolute brainworms, a girl being nerdy and bookish and whatall is fairly common, it's just not given a seperate archetype because NERD already exists as one.
>it isn't the only thing that is considered "natural" of men but not women Being a nerd isn't a "natural" thing of men either FFS, so again, Nerd and nerdiness is absolutely irrelevant.
>OP already mentioned some other traits that are associated with masculinity rather than femininity.And just being a typical nerd is not one of them. Nerds are considered unmasculine by a typical definition because their focus is "brainy things" this is why /fitlit/ was a joke board, people had a hard time splitting between intelligence and fit bodies and so ended up staying on their original boards.
>If a woman prefers to act "like a guy" instead of "like a girl" she's a tomboy, it's that fucking simple <literally what I say Wow, no shit Sherlock! How'd ya figure that out?!
>random fucking images from a google search of anime tomboy>>>/GET/ is right there if ya want to image spam.
>"a type of short-haired sporty girl who makes my dick hard" <"a girl who does things that aren't expected from a girl but from a boy" Imagine making such a dishonest strawman worded in such a convoluted way. Stay Mad.
No.9873
>>9839>hese girls may or may not be indistinguishable from a guy at first. If a girl resembled a hideous guy, for example, she wouldn't be a bifauxnen. Wow, imagine being so contrarian that you have to break down a textbook anime definition, to reiterate the exact same point being made and end up agreeing anyway without outright saying so. Seriously, you state "a girl resembling an ugly buy wouldn't be a bifauxnen" when that's literally IN THE DEFINITION OF BISHOUNEN: PRETTY-BOY!
And this, ladies and gentlemen sets the tone for the entire rest of this god-forsaken diatribe rant about Reverse traps, in reply to a casual comment on yet another new fetishization by weebs. Seriously m8, when you wrote this and saw that it was over 4,500 characters, why didn't you stop and try to edit out all the unnecessary parts? I get pedantics, but this is too much.
>Bishonen aren't traps <the two are not synonyms [but a character can be both]No shit, speedreader! Let me explain in layman's terms; Traps are all bishounen because they "really pretty", the reverse is not true, not all bishounen are traps. In other words it's a square-rectangle analogy: not all rectangles are squares but all squares are rectangles, I would think that obvious from the specific order in which I wrote out the definition.
>traps appeal mostly to males <bishonen practically exist for the female part of an audience The appeal of traps to males is pic 1 related, otherwise most of the actual appeal is the same Fujoshi-bait that Bishis are.
>traps have the appeal of [being literal traps with their feminity] I don't see why you're explaining a basic and well understood definition of a piece of weeb-slang when anyone who isn't a new-fag redditor would know.
>nowadays, this is done as a fetishThis has to be the first piece of genuine nuance, yes indeed, traps have gone from a funny gag about "haha gotcha!" to a literal fetish, similar to what happened to Gender-Bender gags, and so it's not a gag and just outright the plot of some shows/anime episodes.
>most bishonen are masculine enough that you usually would never think they're girls They dress as girls and they'd become instant traps, it's an anime not real life, so there isn't any of the awkward obviousness of a crossdressing dude, no matter how thin they may be.
>traps go beyond bishonen in terms of femininity, and instead of remaining ambiguous/androgynous they go for the extreme opposite and become completely feminineExcept the only reason this would be true is the main difference of the two, the former dresses up as a girl and so femininity is accentuated - Astolfo or Felix or any other well known trap character, dressed in boys clothes will look like a pretty-boy, not a girl (partially again, because anime usually lacks defining facial features that would make a boy or girl stand out)
>more tasteful way than how traps for men are done I disagree, it has more to do with how some anime are low-effort in their depictions and some are not, and genre is irrelevant in that regard
>Some "reverse traps" are also examples of tomboys who aren't necessarily into physical activities like sports or combat.Correct
>first pic And here we go again; Listen m8… it's a meme, not an actual debate, anyone who takes this seriously is playing themselves. That being said you're not entirely wrong, just… take it easy. Also pic 2 related
>it's always guys who bring it up Because sexuality and gayness are always a big part of weeb audiences online, girls tend to stick to stuff like Wattpad, DA, FFN and non-anon forums.
No.9874
>>9872I'll make an amendment to this post; the pics you posted were related… to your other answer, so I was wrong about that.
No.9893
>>9869In case your autism is still preventing you from noticing, I wasn't avoiding a reply (I was actually expecting it because you obviously monitor this thread as well), I was trying not to annoy other people going through the overboard or the first page of /anime/ with our retarded walls of text about petty details. Unfortunately you do that every time you bump this thread.
>>9872>Nerds have been pretty inclusive for decadesMissing the point again?
>LOL no, cope harder,Seriously, what am I supposed to be coping with? Do you seriously think I'm driven by an attraction to nerdy tomboys and not just a desire to prove you wrong?
>nerdiness was only "cool" in teen movies of the mid 80s and 90s,And back then was the period when shit like video games started to be marketed almost exclusively at boys, which resulted in video games being seen as an exclusively male hobby for quite some time. Before that, video games had been marketed for both genders and different age groups, but at some point it became "weird" for girls to get into that. Also, tech has always been
>and even then was considered to be dorky. What does it matter if it was seen as a dorky or a cool thing? You keep bringing that up, I never did.
>Sports, Weight-lifting, Martial Arts, Bar-hopping etc. are considered 'masculine' because typically women have a hard time getting involved, a man will generally outperform the average woman in these regards, by mere fact of being biologically maleAll of these things also apply to being into tech stuff except for the last one depending on your opinion on that. Of course, there may be different reasons that have nothing to do with biology, but the point is that, for the longest time, women generally haven't been as involved in these things or been as successful/visible as men. The old idea that "there are no girls on the internet", for example, actually came from somewhere, and it's even believed by people on this very site to an extent; our userbase is also largely male.
>Being a nerd isn't a "natural" thing of men either FFSYes, that's why I put it in quotes, because some people think that men are usually more involved in such hobbies than women due to biological reasons (and that's where some cultural sexist prejudices come from). Whether it's true or not is irrelevant.
For fuck's sake, education used to be reserved for men, are you seriously going to argue that, because being smart is not a unique trait of men, education wasn't considered male-only back then and it wasn't "weird" or "wrong" for a woman to want to get some education in those times?
><literally what I sayWhat you said is that being sporty is a necessary trait for a woman to be a tomboy, and somehow implied that being physically strong is the only masculine thing that exists. But there are some ways in which women can "act like men" which don't necessarily involve physical activity, such as using the same coarse language as men do in public, not taking care of one's physical appearance or not using makeup, or doing whatever is considered "un-ladylike", which could even involve having a certain posture or walking a certain way.
>>random fucking images from a google search of anime tomboyNo, they all come from otome games and the images are from VNDB, retard.
>>9873> Traps are all bishounen because they "really pretty"No. You really don't get the meaning of bishonen. Most traps, by virtue of catering to males, are "fake bishojo", while most reverse traps, by virtue of catering to females, are "bifauxnen". Bishonen is masculine and for women, bishojo is feminine and for men. If a trap looks exactly like a bishojo, or average cute anime girl, he can't be a bishonen, or average pretty anime boy: that's the entire point of "traps". Again, most traps go too far beyond the bishonen femininity line, and they land squarely into bishojo territory. It doesn't matter if you think those traps are "pretty" and that this must mean that they fit the definition of "bishonen" because it literally means "beautiful boy": it's not androgynous, it's 100% feminine, therefore cannot possibly be bishonen. You're just taking definitions
extremely literally.
The fujo example you gave is actually not "most traps" nowadays, and yes, those would count as bishonen (mostly because the typical yaoi style made it clear that they were just the submissive bottom of the main couple but still male), but they used to be much more common more than a decade ago. And even then, those weren't always crossdressers, they were just stereotypical uke which is why they resembled girls, but they were not part of the otokonoko fetish like the ones that are more well-known today. Saying that bishonen traps made for girls and bishojo-looking traps made for guys are the same is like saying that BL and otokonoko hentai are both "yaoi" because there's gay sex in both, despite the styles, audiences and appeals being entirely different.
And no, Astolfo or Felix would still look like girls and nothing like boys if they wore masculine clothes, the way they're designed (face and body) makes them look too feminine to resemble the non-trap males in their respective series, not to mention their voice. They're unambiguously female in everything except genitals.
Seriously, if you have no idea what you're talking about, just admit it and stop pulling definitions out of your ass.>Nerds have been pretty inclusive for decades
>Sports, Weight-lifting, Martial Arts, Bar-hopping etc. are considered 'masculine' because typically women have a hard time getting involved, a man will generally outperform the average woman in these regards, by mere fact of being biologically male No.9894
>>9893>Also, tech has always been considered, in general, as something that men do, not women.
No.9895
>>9893 People use overboard specifically to view new content, including textwalls and whatnot, it's not that hard to scroll past a post.
>our retarded walls of text about petty detailsThis is a chan, that's what we do all the time lol. You're not going to hurt anyone by not saging.
No.9896
>>9893>Missing the point again?Your point is inane, and I already broke down why.
>cope aboutthe fact that, in fact, Nerdiness wasn't really a male exclusive aspect, as (for example) the typical 'Nerd' cafeteria table had girls and boys alike and that was pretty normal and culturally accepted (see movies). A girl on, say, the football team is neither accepted nor normal.
>driven by an attraction to nerdy tomboys and not just a desire to prove you wrong? Given your own self-admission to the fact that your textwall arguments are somewhat too stupid for other people's sensibilities, I would assume that you're so adamant in dying on this Nerd hill because you are invested in Nerdy Tomboys.
>the period when shit like video games started to be marketed almost exclusively at boys Yes, but vidya wasn't really exclusive to Nerds and the early "gamers" of the 80s and 90s included mostly normal kids who liked to play games.
>it became "weird" for girls to get into that True, but that's not really being a Nerd. Also this didn't last long, as this kind of marketing to boys stopped at the mid-90s when stuff like Pokemon and Digimon, and at this point it's a fairly normal expectation for a guy and girl to hang out and play games, which is partially why during GamerGate's idiocy, Anita Sarkeesian was derided for being an ignorant dumbass.
>What does it matter if it was seen as a dorky or a cool thing I know you didn't bring it up, that's the point. It is relevant to the fact that even if I theoretically agreed that Nerds are "mostly male" or some shit, the point is that they're not a representation of most males and therefore masculinity as a whole, which is in part based on biological physiology and behavior of males.
I'll address the rest later; Gotta Go
Fast No.9897
>>9893 I'm back
Cont.
>All of these things also apply to being into tech stuff Are you implying that females are biologically less able in tech/Nerd stuff? Because that's patently untrue, hell it's pretty well known that girls tend to excel over men in many technical regards (which is why many bureaus such as Mikoyan-Gurevich in the USSR had many women-dominated technician groups and departments. Only in the West where 2nd and third wave feminism was focused on (in essence) pushing businessmen-but-female in terms of female work rights, and left professional technicums rather devoid of women, not because this was a masculine field, but because of porky's impact on culture.
>women generally haven't been as involved in these things or been as successful/visible as men In tech, at least in the West this is in part due to the liberal attitude of feminism and it's essential "landlords but female/gay/black" type ideologies, pushing literal equality, rather than the equity that women in Socialist or social-democratic states did.
>there are no girls on the internet That's got nothing to do with it being "male dominated" and has to do with the focus on male/female identity online being used as a cudgel (as proven with twitter accounts and their argument by (self) authority because "I'm an [X] so I'm totally right". Pic 1 related is essentially the whole point of why this maxim exists. Like I said, gender neutral essentially.
>this siteBecause it's dictated by capitalism's impact on society, that's why incel is a termin almost exclusive to males, (requiring the need for "femcel" to differentiate). This means that while an incel is generally not masculine (i.e. le chinlet), they are males because of male/female dynamics, which is why ideas of males being raped by females is often correctly dismissed, a woman is the one being penetrated and cannot physically force you to fuck her, and a woman will be in the right if they refuse sex, as it is a choice that gives up power to the man. But I digress.
>some people think that men are usually more involved in such hobbies than women due to biological reasons That is true, but not the majority of people, which is my point. Unless it is seen widely as being male dominated by virtue of masculinity, something is not inherently masculine in and of itself.
>education used to be reserved for men And that wasn't based in any legitimate biology, it was just sexism… not to mention that for the majority of people neither men nor women were allowed an education by virtue of being of the lower class.
>it wasn't "weird" or "wrong" for a woman to want to get some education in those times? It was, but it wasn't seen as masculine, there's a difference between a girl behaving outside the norm, and a girl specifically behaving specifically in male fashion.
>What you said is that being sporty is a necessary trait for a woman to be a tomboy I never said that once, I said that it is a majority trait that most tomboys have, and is generally the main association, I did not say that it was required for one to be a Tomboy. Inb4 "muh screenshot" It's a greentext fantasy, not a literal definition of every and all Tomboys ever.
>which don't necessarily involve physical activity Yes, I KNOW, given that I GREW up with at least 2 different Tomboys
>They all come from [site that can be found on Google] Relax and see
>>9874 No.9898
>>9893>Most traps, by virtue of catering to males, are "fake bishojo" I'm talking about looks, not appeal and you're contradicting yourself;
Bishonen aren't traps, holy shit (they can be, depending on how feminine they are >most traps go too far beyond the bishonen femininity lineBy virtue of wearing girly clothes and maybe makeup, take any typical bishounen character (say Sesshomaru) and put them in a dress and give them some make-up and you'd be hard-pressed to not call it a trap. Again, you're taking real life ideas of crossdressing and femboys and applying it to anime, when frankly if you strip away cosmetics of a bishs you're just going to get a face that is fairly androgynous.
>taking definitions extremely literally I'm taking them as they are, without stretching them past what they mean.
>Saying that bishonen traps made for girls and bishojo-looking traps made for guys are the same is like saying that BL and otokonoko hentai are both "yaoi" because there's gay sex in both, despite the styles, audiences and appeals being entirely different. Because the audience is a marketing thing - from a definitive perspective there is little difference.
>uke designThat has to do with how design in general changed over the years, heck it even happens within long-running shows (see pic 1 where Haku in Naruto and Shippuden changes into being more feminine because the art style changed with the time period (late 2000s vs late 90s).
>Astolfo or Felix would still look like girls >They're unambiguously female in everything except genitals <the fact that people called them out as traps from the very reveal of their designs say otherwise. Pic 2 related says otherwise. Astolfo particularly looks female because of female clothing and a female braid, adjust it slightly and it becomes immediately the typical bishi look.
>stop pulling definitions out of your assYou first, lol
No.10243
>>10240It only ok if done by a tomboy with no rape
No.10364
>>2654>Tomboys are losing meaning as a termin This is especially true in pr0n, mostly drawn material. The recent posts under that tag in r34 is filled with characters that are merely;
A) Genderbent characters (a la Ranma)
B) Futas (despite nothing about the characters depicted being Tomboyish, conflating a cock on a grill with masculine behavior)
C) Dyke lesbians
D) Short haircut girls in pants (usually doing /fit/ routines)
E) Femdom
Ironically it's rarely all at once, but mostly separate, pic related being one of those that combines several of the above 5.
No.10365
>>10364What would
you call a tomboy, then, anon?
No.10368
>>10365A girl that is interested and behaves in traditionally masculine ways but isn't gender dysphoric (I specify this because conflating that and trans people is something liberal ideologues exploit).
- Gender-Bender is closer to dysphoria, as it's a male mind in a female body unless the male and female minds are totally separate (a la Rin and Ran from To-Love Ru).
- Having a cock =/= masculinity even if it is generally masculine and related to traditionally masculine things. A girly girl having a dick is just that, not necessarily a tomboy
- Dyke lesbians can BE Tomboy but usually its more Top-Bottom dynamics in lesbians, having 1 partner take a more masculine role in bed, so yuri =/= masculine.
- Short hair cuts and Working out can be Tomboy traits, but aren't indicators of Tomboys in and of themselves (OP goes into it).
- Femdom isn't masculine because it's female specific domination, unrelated to masculine behavioral traits, as male and female can be Top/Bottom.
Prime examples of Tomboys: Toph Bei Fong (ATLA), Ellie (Pixar's UP), Temari (Naruto) etc.
No.10371
>>10368Thank fuck, so you agree with me to an extent, huh?
>>9723 No.10372
>>10371>>9723 I agree in the first half of your post but while I get your attempted point about other traits, IMO Nerd is kinda not the angle I'd call a girl a Tomboy over.
No.10380
>>10372Fair enough, maybe with other typically masculine behaviors at the same time.
No.10404
>>10392god she's pretty cute, thanks
No.10416
What the fuck is wrong with you?
No.10417
>>10416Who are you replying to?
>>10404No problemo
No.10748
>>10392>dedicated marinebeing an authoritycuck is a disqualification for being a tomboy
No.10749
>>10748anakids/libsuccs aren't allowed to make rules about anything… cause that goes against your ideology.
No.10750
>>10749die choking on a dick cop
No.13941
>>13931Eh that post just feels like it could be more succintly stated as "gender nonconformity doesn't mean dysphoria". I guess there's a discussion to be had on how people'the popular conception of dysphoria might be misled but how often do people conflate the two really?
Anyway hot take: tomboy cute
No.13946
>>13941>hat post just feels like it could be more succintly stated as "gender nonconformity doesn't mean dysphoria". Author of the post here - Yes you are correct, for any rational person that's enough. The reasons I extrapolated so lengthily is to make sure there are no verbal loopholes that could be used to make an argument for "le trans Toph" or to try and claim my post as "reactionary".
> there's a discussion to be had on how people'the popular conception of dysphoria might be misled but how often do people conflate the two reallyTomboy as a term has died off in popular culture outside of niche imageboards and older generationspeak, social media like titter are full of virtual signalling people that claim that "tomboy is a term to dismiss trans people" and other rubbish.
>hot take: tomboy cute Thermonuclear take: Tomboy based
No.13958
>>10364This
I also hate how people think a tomboy is a sporty girl with shorthair or dark/tan skin
No.13959
>>13958>How people think a tomboy is a sporty girl with shorthair or dark/tan skinI mean that's certainly a plus, but it certainly is not a trait of the trope.
No.13961
>>13959I know, but it kind of has become the main trait recently
Every piece of that i've seen art that features a tomboy is that same archetype that gets reused especially in eastern works
Not saying that it's bad it's just a little strange and might have some bad implications
Like having darkskin = masculine
No.13963
>>13961>it kind of has become the main trait recently Yeah, because stereotyping is even more prevalent due to social media.
>it's just a little strange and might have some bad implicationsYeah.
>Like having darkskin = masculine Yeah it's kind of a burgeroid mentality IMO.
No.13966
Complaining that archetypes are being too archetypal is pretty silly.
No.13968
>>13963>it's kind of a burgeroid mentalityActually it's a lot more prevalent in the east
It's mostly eastern art that does this
No.13974
>>13968>It's mostly eastern art that does thisTrue, but non-jap weebs make up a large portion of the consumers and even then I don't think the East artists call their stuff Tomboy, it's a label that gets put on by Westerners.
>>13966 1) Tomboys are a real thing
2) The complaint is that the Archetype is being applied to something not relevant to its definition.
No.15005
>>13977>East><tan=manDoesn't the Gyaru concept kinda disprove this?
Its more situational than that IMO.
>>639 No.15009
>>15005>Doesn't the Gyaru concept kinda disprove this? You posted an artist who is a prime example of that
He and like many other asian artists love to give masculine characters dark skin as in darker than the girl even darker than gyarus in many examples
It's literally a fact that many asian cultures see being dark skin is a masculine trait
And gyarus are a whole other can of worms
Like the idea of having dark skin = being unpure and tainted
No.15082
>>15009"Tanned=outdoorsy/sporty" is not that different from "short-haired=masculine" in a sense, it's obviously something that isn't strictly true but it was used often enough that the association became ingrained in the minds of the anime audience. If you're trying to get a character's personality across with a single drawing, which is something that both Internet artists and professional character designers often have to do, you have to make use of this kind of association even when it doesn't make sense (like when a character is naturally dark-skinned).
And there might be some imported exoticism from the West regarding African and indigenous people as being less civilized – which can come across as more masculine – but I wonder how much of a factor that is.
>And gyarus are a whole other can of worms >Like the idea of having dark skin = being unpure and taintedGyaru is a real fashion style and not just a character archetype, so I think looking at it this way is wrong. People who dress in a certain way don't do it because they want to project a negative image of themselves. Even if there is exoticism at play here too, it's not like real gyarus think of themselves as "tainted".
No.19717
>>2654This OP can be summarized by pic rel (but it's still a good effort post OP).
>>2888 's trip 8s confirmed.
No.19742
>>19717Makoto do be kinda a tomboy tho
No.19748
>>19741Absolute chadette.
No.19787
A fairly decent Tomboy depiction in current anime IMO is Tomo Aizawa from Tomo-chan is a Girl!
>inb4 it's actually anti-Tomboy
The show is a comedy of misunderstandings, not a "you need to be more of a girl" thing. Mainly because Jun likes Tomo from episode 1, he is upset that she might have a boyfriend who is not him, he thinks she is cool as fuck, gets embarrassed all the time when she shows any affection, also actually treats her like a girl when she is not looking, like when he defended her against bullies. Additionally, the idea that he doesn't see her as a girl is actually suggested by Tomo's friend, Jun never expresses such a sentiment. And finally, to me Jun's reaction comes off as a polite rejection, like a way you would reply to your best friend no without losing them. Clearly, he has stuff to work through, or is afraid of something rather than merely thinking of her as a bro.
No.19789
>>19788>The entire concept of "tomboy" was invented to break out of the narrow confines of socially accepted gender roles. Keep this intersectional nonsense out. Tomboy has a simple primary definition that has remained for centuries - a girl behaving in a boyish manner regarding physical activities and general behavior that are typically male oriented, for a number of historical and biological reasons. It is not "betraying the spirit of the idea", because the spirit of the idea is that it is not the general norm of girls, not some immature, burger feminist conception of "female liberation" from "le social norms". It's most negative connotation hasn't been commonly used in centuries at this point.
The Oxford English Dictionary (OED), from 1533, defines “tomboy” as a “rude, boisterous or forward boy.” (a la Tomcat for a male cat). Later in the late 16th century this was amended alongside the synonym Tomrig to mean a "a girl who behaves like a spirited or boisterous boy; a wild romping girl."
>Let people be however they want Irrelevant gaslight, nobody is saying otherwise (although there is significant argument to be made with this burger idea of "you're just as good as you are and just accept yourself" rather than the superior concept of "be the best you that you can be")
>stop trying to box them <muh gatekeepingThere is a definition for tomboy, if a character does not fit the definition, they are not tomboys, end of discussion.
>you're more comfortable This is bait on the level of "so much for the tolerant left"
>aroused <The OP is literally calling people out for trying to pigeon-hole their fetish by trying to label it Tomboyish even when they're not tomboysHAHAHA
No.19792
>>19789>you're just as good as you are and just accept yourselfI have no issues with the phrase in itself. What annoys me here is the association of myself with my body or preferences. I am the body without organs, a formless cosmic being that is beyond all these physical manifestations, I don't value my body that much to try to preserve its current state like a fucking bodily conservative or whatever… Well, I guess I do value my brain, I don't wanna lose my memory and personality, I've grinded too much to start at point zero again. How else am I gonna discover all this anarchist literature? I am truly blessed to live in this timeline in that regard.
No.19842
>>19792>association of myself with my body or preferences. Your body and your preferences are part of you, so yes that is part of the phrase implicitly.
>I don't value my body that much to try to preserve its current state like a fucking bodily conservativeWhat the fuck does that mean LOL? Caring about your body matters too, since your mind and body are not independent entities, it's like Yin and Yang, the spiritual must have the physical and the physical must have the spiritual, or in other words your mind needs a body and vice versa, otherwise you are incomplete.
>>19793 I mean Kida is tomboyish, but yeah it's retarded, especially since by that metric, Gyaru are also "tomboys".
No.19850
>>19842>Kida is tomboyishThe fuck? Since when?
No.19872
>>19850She's a warrior princess. Being tomboy =/= being unfeminine looking, her having long hair and curves doesn't stop her from hunting in the caves, fighting on equal grounds with men and generally being roguish. This is even specifically visible with her interactions with Milo, as he's bookish, fairly weak and clumsy and generally not very 'masculine' in the typical sense. He certainly has his moments, but it's not his preferred activity if you compare him to a character like Lyle, who is stereotypically masculine, the difference is apparent.
A better example of a dark toned character not being a tomboy would be Chel from Road to El Dorado, or Katara from ATLA. Like Milo, they don't prefer to fight, but they can take action. (Inb4 Katara and Pakku, that was a thing of principles and to establish that Katara isn't a damsel in distress and doesn't want to be, but she's not a Tomboy like Toph).
No.19874
>>19872>Being tomboy =/= being unfeminine lookingI thought that being a tomboy means both looking and acting (more) masculine. And I don't remember Kida doing that much action, more like Mailo and Kida "complete" each other, so to speak. She's not incapable of action. But then again, so is Mailo. I mean, who would be bold enough to go to the middle of fuck knows where risking their own life but Mailo. That requires at least one ball of steel.
No.19875
>>2654>pathetic fetishists>pathetic fetishists>pathetic fetishistsMr. Miyazaki, is that you? When have you learned English?
No.19876
>>2675Ritsu is not a tomboy. She is based. I consider based people its own gender.
No.19878
>>2654Tomboy was always a woman skater with short hair.
No.20337
>>2654>tomboya lot of people don't care about the word tomboy and ignore it because its insignificant
No.20362
>>2654>As the years went by I found myself highly attracted to 2D girlswell there's your problem
No.20364
>>20361 Because that's not how the etymology of it works? I mean the term does get used, but it's more of an online slap-dash term of recent rather than Tomboy
>>19878 Based 90s poster
No.20368
>>2675A qveen nonetheless
No.20402
>>2654>As the years went by I found myself highly attracted to 2D girlsWhat virginity does to an mf.
No.20511
>>2654I've always been confused about this thread, until I finally read this post:
>>19717You guys are getting at either strawmen, or just silly idiots on the internet.
No.20512
>>20511*Mad
>>20489Dawg you got baited
No.20519
>>20518It doesn't really work since Tom is a masculine name – if anything femboy is better because it's a part of female dialect to call men "boys"
No.20526
>>20519This
>>20518>i feel less women are inclined to take up the mantle tomboy because the name is to closely related to masculinity In modern day yes, mostly because of toxic bourgeoisie feminism of the current era basically screaming ideological twaddle about evul males and other intersectional nonsense.
>the male equivalent is femboy which keeps a masculine namesake.Boy has somewhat different implications depending on the usage as unlike MAN, it can imply under-developed male characteristics (i.e. unmatured)
>i think to help create more tomboys I support this for sure, but I think tomgirl in the context of etymology doesn't quite work given the history of the term, since "FEM" is a bit more definitive in that regard.
No.20527
>>20518Tomgirl already exists as a term and basically means femboy, as an inverse of tomboy. The "boy" in tomboy is meant to refer to taking up aspects generally associated with boys. If you wanted to change the term you should change the tom part to something else.
>>20361That is a term that exists although it's not nearly as well known because being the opposite of a tomboy is much much less socially acceptable. Femboy emerged more recently but it has explicitly fetishistic associations.
No.20528
>>20526>Boy has somewhat different implications depending on the usage as unlike MAN, it can imply under-developed male characteristics (i.e. unmatured) I neber understood this. People refer to adult females as girls and theres no insult to their development. Why is there differentiation between boys and men but not girls amd women.
Hell, we have yaoi amd bara.
Yet, theres no female equivalent for bara.
No.20529
>>20402Or maybe he just finds 2d girls are better.
Ive always felt that even after getting laid.
I like staring at real life pica of women, but its not the same.
No.20532
>>20531No idea if that Anko is a Tomboy since I'm unfamiliar with her, but my favorite Anko is definitely one.
>>20528 >People refer to adult females as girlsNot very often and neither do they often refer to men as boys, it's more an informal way of addressing someone or more often a group of people, usually with a more casual, in-group talk, rather than a stranger talking about others.
>Why is there differentiation between boys and men but not girls amd women.There is
>Yaoi and barathat's about body type and age group, which is significantly varied in men and boys, while girls and women often develop physically and mentally at a different rate
>no female equivalent for baraWhat is Tachi?
>>20530 THIS
No.20533
>>20529why do imageboard users keep talking about "2d" girls? but i dont get it
No.20544
>>20526>mostly because of toxic bourgeoisie feminism of the current era basically screaming ideological twaddlei think it's more then that, most modern feminist look away from the semi masculine themed women as a kinda rejection of femininity. as if to say you have to reject the feminine in order to be strong. modern feminism wants to say that femininity has it's own strength, and i support this obviously. but the approach is what i think is the problem, some of it feels like it's demeaning women of wanting to be who they want to be. being a tomboy isn't the problem it's thinking you have to be a tomboy in order to be strong is the problem. as Laurell K. Hamilton said "there's no wrong way to be a girl."
>Boy has somewhat different implications depending on the usage as unlike MANliterary how and when?
>I think tomgirl in the context of etymology doesn't quite work given the history of the termno i think it sounds quite fair, tomgirl has been used before, it was once the name of a yaoi doujin magazine, it's been around for a long time. femboy is the new name and it's clearly made with the favoritism of BOY.
No.20546
>>20544>most modern feminist look away from the semi masculine themed women as a kinda rejection of femininity I disagree, feminism of today attacks femininity too and while attacking masculine qualities in men, pushes the most stereotypical ones as good for women - ergo the "more female CEOs" shit, especially in terms of fictional depictions. Thus we get screaming about big breasted women being bad for example.
>literary how and when? When people refer to a man as boy and they're not a friend being casual, then it's downtalk - implying through words that they're immature/unmasculine. Referring to women as girls has a different connotation as youthfulness is something traditionally preferable, ergo the maxim, "it's impolite to ask a lady her age"
>tomgirl has been used before Tomboy has a history of use and its meaning for centuries. Tomgirl is not as old a phrase and arose in the modern era as a reflection of the older Tomboy termin.
>modern feminism wants to say that femininity has it's own strength That's the problem, modern feminism is exactly the opposite of that.
>being a tomboy isn't the problem it's thinking you have to be a tomboy in order to be strong is the problem That's sort of true.
No.20553
>>20546no modern feminism wants to embarrass femininity and be strong in it's own way, your right that it rejects other concepts like tomboy but for a cause that sounds just: it threatens femininity. I propose the way to combat this is to not change the ideology of modern feminism but to simply create equality in the naming conventions. the concept of tomboy can be feminine in it's own way and work with modern feminism instead of rejecting it.
https://youtu.be/bul-TP-R_sg?t=2927also yes "tomboy" is older then "tomgirl" but i just said "tomgirl" is older then "femboy"
and yes "boy" can be used to refer to immaturity but it's still the masculine word for young man. men just need to stop being prunes and start calling themselves girls if they want to see more tomboys.
No.20593
>>20553>also yes "tomboy" is older then "tomgirl" but i just said "tomgirl" is older then "femboy" and yes "boy" can be used to refer to immaturity but it's still the masculine word for young man. men just need to stop being prunes and start calling themselves girls if they want to see more tomboys.
Yet, young adult females are referred to as "women" or "girls" without any differing implications of maturation.
Also, I think masculinity is obsessed over too much
No.20602
>>20593>Yet, young adult females are referred to as "women" or "girls" without any differing implications of maturation.Society develops all over unequally, and it's full of contradictions – it's very normal for girls to call their non-ronantical female friends as "girlfriends", but for guys you get a eyebrow raised.
I guess it kinda balances out since it's normal to be "gay with the boys"
>masculinity is obsessed over too muchYeah, that's the frustrating with male gender roles.
It's to the point of mtf get more shit than ftm – (of course they both get shit to the level of danger).
No.20604
I leave for a week and the thread goes full schizo
>>20593>Yet, young adult females are referred to as "women" or "girls" without any differing implications of maturationThe implications are different, not without any difference, I explained this before but referring to a woman as a "girl" is meant to be complementary, as age is an important psychological consideration for women, as being considered Old is commonly negative, as it implies a loss of youth, something that is even reflected physically by Menopause coming about in midlife, while a man remains capable of reproducing even in old age.
>masculinity is obsessed over too much I don't think so - there may be variations of femininity and masculinity, but they themselves are defined points for this spectrum. There is a differences between masculinity and machoism.
>>20602>but for guys you get a eyebrow raisedBecause unless the male is obviously homosexual, it implies intimate familiarity that go beyond friendship.
>very normal for girls to call their non-ronantical female friends as "girlfriends" More of a modern burger meme term from the past few decades rather than universal - English's term "friend" is the proper, neutral term. Moreover usually I've seen the phrase "girls" and "boys" is used by FRIENDS within friend groups of the same sex and the meaning is casual in the same sense as "dude/dudette". It's atypical for a girl to refer to a boy in a casual manner like that without being in a friend group and usually a girl that does do that is typically a tomboy or vice-versa for a boy in a girls group, ergo the "nice cock dude" phrase.
>it's normal to be "gay with the boys" It's a joke about perceptions, not an unironic thing
No.20605
>>20553>it threatens femininityIronic hypocrisy
>create equality in the naming conventions Except it inherently rejects the concepts the words mean.
>not change the ideology of modern feminism>work with modern feminism No, modern 'feminism' and its toxic ideology is a bourgeoisie farce and a harmful one at that. Their idea of a strong "femininity" is the wholesale rejection of femininity and replacing it with Machoism but done by a "girl-boss"
>Chapo liberal ECeleb nonsenseDon't make me vomit.
>"boy" can be used to refer to immaturity but it's still the masculine word for young man You're deflecting and incorrect, young man has very different connotation to boy and it is usually separate - "This boy, No, young man…" is a phrase that comes up in literature and other media and is a reflection of the cultural meaning behind boys becoming men.
>men just need to stop being prunes and start calling themselves girls if they want to see more tomboys. What the hell does this mean?
>>20603>tomboy is a women with some masculine traitsCorrect
>see this as a rejection of feminism Inane schizoshit - feminism has nothing to do with tomboys, and the ideology trying to co-opt it or attack it is just further proof of idpol being cancer.
>i believe tomboys can be feminine in there own way Correct, by inherent fact of they are female, just as an effeminate male is still male to an extent, but that is physical vs behavioural.
No.20608
>>20604>It's atypical for a girl to refer to a boy in a casual mannerYeah, I keep forgetting to really consider casual vs formal situations.
Ironic part is that it doesn't hold me back in life since it mostly kicks in automatically.
It's similar to how I forgotten the reasoning for many rules in english – (like when to use "that") – but I still use it in proper context without much thought.
>>20544>>20546>>20553>>20605I'll admit: I'm being lazy, and I have skimmed your guys' posts.
But what do you point to as a representation modern day feminism?
I don't really know myself, and I've been burnt from those 2016 anti-feminism youtube channels who would miscontrude X feminist (like Anita) arguments, or over hype some randoms who have no real impact.
(Thinking back on that last point, the only people with influence who'd advocated for stuff like banning video games were religous/conservative figures).
I know it's a decentralized movement, but it seems like this conversation is working off of different defenitions/analysis of modern day feminism.
Making some post look "schizophrenic", as mentioned by
>>20604 .
No.20612
>>20608>it mostly kicks in automatically. It essentially becomes a muscle memory, that's why a lot of amnesiacs can still write and read even though they have lost all memory completely, there are things that are ingrained into their subconscious.
>what do you point to as a representation modern day feminism? I don't want to continue this conversation much further because it's beginning a derail of the thread TBH, but I'll respond.
This is mostly within a 1st world context; third-wave feminism and Western feminism in general is what is being referred to. Anita Sarkeesian and many other "feminists" are good examples of toxic women that have a warped view of reality or at least support a warped view because it benefits them. They don't care about women or even understand women's rights or what being a free woman really means, it's just something for their meaningless selves to cling to because without it they are nobodies - they seek to create a schizm by setting women against men in a false dichotomy and promoting machoism-but-female which is toxic. I know leftypol likes to use the term a bit much but these are genuine lumpens, often from the upper-crust of society that talk down at people, but can be convincing to the naive, ignorant and stupid (and simps).
>the only people with influence who'd advocated for stuff like banning video games I've seen it among liberals too, but that's beside the point. I've never gathered my knowledge from the 2012-2020 era of youtube drama because it was all ECelebs bitching, Anita was just an example because she goes beyond youtube and is a benchmark rolemodel for modern feminists. Her attitude isn't new nor is it accidental, it is a long-term COINTEL effort by the CIA, through people like Gloria Steinhem to influence generations of young women and fracturing any people's movements with nonsense about gender roles and obsession over them. By modern day it had become such a cancer to the left that feminists and similar idpol "activists" essentially destroyed the Wall Street movement, driving away ordinary workers and people. Pic1 rel is from old /leftypol/ talking about it and pic 2 is about Gloria Steinhem.
Long story short: Intersectionality is a glowing cancer that only divides the left, promotes a false, harmful image of strong women and is completely contradictory to socialist thought.
No.20676
>>2852I hate that this reminds me of a particular recent Muchin pic… I hate that I know Muchin in general tbh.
Obligatory sauce
https://archive.ph/0DaOe No.20679
>>20677To be honest a lot of the girls in RWBY's main cast could be called Tomboys of varying types. Other than Nora:
>Yang A party girl with some aspects similar to Nora but with some feminine vanity (her hair) and generally being more salacious and intentionally 'unlady-like' yet still carry a femininity
>Ruby While mostly girly in appearance and some other regards, she's a weapons nut that both likes seeing/using them and made her own, likes to fight grimm, has a boyish dream of being the best hero and also tends to forget female norms in lieu of her enthusiasm and dorkiness.
Pyrrha and Blake are a bit of stretch given their over-all character, as being a fighter doesn't necessarily make them tomboyish, especially in regards to their world having different standards of fighting prowess that can often ignore male/female physical dimorphism. Despite being an Amazon (essentially) Pyrrha's character is much softer and feminine than a typical tomboy, especially outside of combat.
Penny doesn't really fit because of her being a gynoid.
No.20690
>>20683
Jesus learn how to format you unironic reddit spacer, it reads like a twitter post.
>Masculinity should be about resolve not age nor physiological aesthetic
It's not just about age or physiological aesthetic, but the very definition of boy is connected to immaturity and lack of development, which is a separate concept from age and physique. The implication is that, regardless of age, a man being referred to as 'boy' by a stranger, is meant to imply that they're not an adult, it doesn't matter if their body is adult or not i.e. infantilism.
> how femininity is defined by youthfulness
1) You're strawmanning - femininity is not defined JUST by youthfulness, that is just an aspect of it.
2) The aspect of youth in relation to femininity is a result of material realities of human age - women often have trouble maintaining their looks as they get older, which impacts other aspects of them, thus it is flattering to be considered to not look old and so decrepit. Denying this or trying to change definitions because it makes you uncomfortable is inane and ignores reality.
>society encourages excessive facial expression from young women as a default quirk
What the actual fuck are you talking about?
>>20684
>Why cant anime aesthtic fans jyst enjoy what they like without being condemned for it?
NTA but
A) Before posting please re-read your post the number of typos, terrible grammar, etc. is abysmal, even by imageboard posting standards
B) Who are you talking about? Who mentioned live action Western stuff? This feels like projection.
No.20696
>>10364 Although I still stand by the fact that a lot of R34 pr0n and ecchi incorrectly labels fit short haired girls/futas as tomboys by default. However that does not mean that they can't exist as such.
A decent example in my opinion is Dsan's OC Tommie - /fit/, shorthaired futa tomboy that acts like one of the guys… just with boobs.
https://allporncomic.com/porncomic/my-gym-partner-is-a-stacked-tomboy-dsan/ No.20699
>>20679Plus they're all very breedable
No.20703
Apparently there's a titter account called Tomboy Of The Day, it's pretty fun.
https://twitter.com/tomboy_otd>>20702 I like how some people are already trying to "fix" Tomboy Lois Lane, although I don't disagree with the eyes being blue or the hair being long, since that's just an aesthetic choice that wouldn't take away from her being a tomboy at all.
Visually, "tomboy Lois" having short-hair fits with Lois's energetic personality more than her usual long-haired look, while the brown eyes matches the new skin tone which was probably changed with the intent of making her look foreign. I believe Lois is supposed to be Korean this time around (since she also wore a modified version of a hanbok for her suit in S01E04 and is voiced by a Korean woman), so maybe she's half-Korean, half-Latina or half-Korean, half-Caucasian for this show.
That said, the color clash with her brown skin and blue eyes in the version on the right doesn't look bad at all and combined with the long hair makes her look more mature, and thus the design feels much closer to that of Lois Lane's usual appearance.
A good compromise would be having Lois's hair grow out in later seasons as a symbolic indicator of her maturing, plus it serves as a good reference to the previous versions of Lois people are used to seeing who had probably been working for the Daily Globe years before Clark joined, whereas in this version, both her and Clark join around the same time.
No.20709
>>20707Personally I disliked the new She-Ra show for a variety of reasons mostly related to the modern identity politics in it and separately some of the poor animation, the overall bland pastel color scheme and some poor art-designs. Separately I'd also point out how the Adora/Catra relationship feels like poor fanfiction yuri shipping and a lot of its aspects are basically aped directly from Revolutionary Girl Utena.
>>11364That being said, compared to some truly shitty cartoons contemporary to it, it's okay-ish, not something I'd recommend, but okay.
>Are we currently in the Golden age of tomboy media No, that was the 90s/2000s, however I think that, as of the 2020s, Tomboys are making a comeback as a sort of industry reaction to the poor reception of liberal idpol trying to replace both tomboys and normal feminine women by browbeating people with the shallow "yas kween slay" 'strong womyn' schtick that is evident in characters like Korra or Rey. People's lack of interest in media with that, has been losing companies money, so finally they're letting in people with better ideas and whose genuinel interest in creating actually interesting characters is getting a chance to shine again in the Western mainstream rather than just small indie companies or Japanese anime.
No.20714
>>20713 How is blatant liberalism good? It got in the way of the story/plot a lot, like it did with Korra, and just felt very immature. Thundercats 2011 at least managed to replicate teen angst without it being grating.
>Catra/Adora relationship is great precisely because its like yuri fanfiction, give me more angsty love-hate.I found that annoying and frankly disrespectful, both to actual lesbians and the original material. It's yet another poorly done lesbian ship with stereotypes that just switches a female character into a male archetype relationship wise - a general trend for yuri-shipping - and if that's enough for lesbians, then boy that is a low set of self-esteem and standards, it's like Black people being happy that their representations are background characters subservient to others.
It is also parodical of the original material, which is inappropriate, given that the name is precisely the entire reason this was made - nostalgia bait for parents who were kids at the time of the original. The ship specifically is explicitly comparable to someone remaking Revolutionary Girl Utena but changing the main characters to be a straight relationship.
No.20715
>>20713Something I wish they explained was how Bow had two dads, ten brothers and sisters, but no mom. I be think Scorpia had two moms as well.
It's not really a problem since there's magic. Like, in Twelve Kingdoms sex doesn't make babies either since everyone comes from a magical tree. It would have been nice if they'd just explained it.
Anyway, I liked the Catra/Adora relationship. The payoff at the end was nice.
>>20714>Disrespectful to the original 20 minute toy cartoonlmao
No.20718
>>20709Yeah I agree, and that She-Ra cartoon was simply yet another pointless reboot/remake that no-one asked for because executives are too scared of losing money by making something original for the new generation.
Seriously we should be giving the new generation new stories and shows that are for them, not reheated 30-year old cultural leftovers made by narcissists being lead around the nose by cynical marketing teams and executives that only see profit to be made.
No.20719
>>20715>I wish they explained was how Bow had two dads, ten brothers and sisters, but no mom. I be think Scorpia had two moms as well. That's easy, it's a caricaturesque idpol shove-in of; "you get 2 dads and you get 2 moms and you get a bunch of adopted siblings, because that's so diverse!" - i.e. lazy liberal projection. I liked Scorpia's design and some interactions, but Bow was just pathetic and lame.
>It's not really a problem since there's magic <12 Kingdoms12 Kingdoms is a hell of a lot better a story, and frankly speaking has the magical tree lore and magic system in general. That isn't the case for Eternia. She-Ra is kind of an outlier, being the child of a First Ones, but even that isn't very clear, as is the magic powers people have.
>I liked the Catra/Adora relationship. The payoff at the end was niceI suppose it was cute, but frankly it was bland and uninspired to me, almost as done to death as the caricature of a caricaturesque hero saving and marrying the one-dimensional damsel in distress, I've seen it done better before, and unlike actual fanfiction, it's not something I can ignore for the sake of it being amateur writing.
>toy cartoonAnd this isn't? That's a pointless criticism given that's prerogative of most Western and Japanese cartoons - to sell merchandise. The point is that if you want to make a yurifiction, just make that, as much as I dislike them, Owl House and similar productions are their own IP and can be whatever they want, but if you're using an existing IP and story, one that has heavy nostalgia and cultural impact, making what is essentially a completely different thing, then pulling on the skin-mask of the older show to get attention. Like I said, it's not the worst cartoon of its time, but there's a variety of factors to it that make me dislike it on both character and quality levels.
No.20721
>>20720Yeah it's bewildering how rarely this gets said. You know what's cool about a new original property? It doesn't have an existing fanbase that you can piss off. It doesn't have le problematic baggage from a Different Time where people's sensibilities were less critical. With something original you are free to make literally whatever you want (or what you think will sell or what the culture "needs" etc).
No.20722
>>20721Very much true, but on the other side this requires you to write and create a compelling new story, new art-design, new ideas and essentially be original, which is hard work and requires paying writers to come up with scripts and story-lines from scratch.
Moreover an established fanbase means you have an established audience to milk (never mind that alienating them from established IPs with bad story-telling and idpol is counterproductive to long-term profit).
Thus we remain at an impasse, where greedy corporate fucks meddle constantly in the process of writing and production for the sake of political pandering and hand-me-down diversity while strangling creativity that isn't an Indie project. They hoped to choke people into accepting their shit-sandwiches, but clearly this is failing to go through.
No.20725
>>20719I'm not gonna read all that but even if the new cartoon is just to sell toys it's embarrassingly autistic to complain about it being disrespectful to the source material.
No.20726
>>20725>I Can't ReadThat's barely a dozen sentences, either you're illiterate or have no retort except ad hominum. I stated that disrespecting an existing IP is just among the reasons it's link to She-Ra is a negative to the story.
I already linked a post about this but whatever:
https://archive.is/FcAUc No.20729
>>20608sorry it took long to respond [spoiler]i don't like this website[/spoiler] but essentially
>>20612 this guy don't know what he's talking about. each decade of feminism essentially tries and fix the toxicity of the previous. the modern wave of feminism is a response to the gen-x/90s wave of feminism that tried to compete with men at their own game ie. being masculine and doing boy stuff. now and days it seems that feminism is embracing femininity saying it can be strong in it's own way. ie. girly, frilly, makeup stuff. this of course came with it's own toxicity; Mary Harrington has a good criticism of it. but what i'm focusing on is that is it can deprive women who want to be tomboy like. i'd argue that being a tomboy can be feminine in it's own way. the reason leftist are so critical of modern feminism, is that feminism isn't about class, it's not suppose to be. that's why you see people talking about more women CEOs, feminism is about working the current system. the modern feminist response to this is by making "women" a class, which is the biggest criticism I have. for one thing it undermines other issues of class by dividing the workers even more (it's like the industrial union debate), but the biggest flaw is again feminism isn't about class and when you try to create a women class the focus is at fault. i'll stop here because this is derailing.
No.20731
>>20729 This is derailing the thread at this point, so please take any more feminist dialogue to the /siberia/ thread on the topic.
>i don't like this website Why do you come here then?
>this guy don't know what he's talking about Sure bud
>each decade of feminism essentially tries and fix the toxicity of the previousLiberal mythology. Each 'decade' or rather wave of feminism has not tried to fix the toxicity of the previous, just double down with a different sort of toxicity, this is exactly what people like Clara Zetkin predicted and why the USSR rejected feminism and instead promoted women's rights as part of the working class. The first Western feminists were bourg movements that only got headway for the same reason general workers rights were improved - the Soviet Union's emancipatory efforts in bringing literacy and rights to its working class, gave workers unions and labour movements incentive to protest and demand rights from their corporate overlords. Thus, had the social democrats not committed to welfare capitalism, the USA and other Western states would have faced a genuine socialist revolt. So porky changed tactics, embracing populist rhetoric, co-opting movements like 'feminism' and later through the CIA, creating and controlling these ideologies that divided the working class by identity, only granting rights in superficial terms, while pitting different groups of people against each other by supporting policies that negatively impacted one group of workers to marginally 'improve' the rights/status of others, be they women, African-Americans or anything else. This started off subtly, but at this point grown into full-blown reactionary politics under the guise of 'social justice'.
>the gen-x/90s wave of feminism that tried to compete with men at their own game ie. being masculine and doing boy stuff.That's not how feminist 'waves' are divided. First Wave was the original suffragettes, which became active from the late 1910s into the 1950s, although their origins go back to the late 19th century with people like Victoria Woodhull. The Second Wave came in the 60s and went through the 90s, with the Third Wave beginning with the turn of the century up to today.
>now and days it seems that feminism is embracing femininity saying it can be strong in it's own way. ie. girly, frilly, makeup stuff. That is almost entirely untrue. Modern 'feminism' has attacked both traditional femininity as 'patriarchally enforced' (even though it is a result of material dialectics and is entirely by choice) and attacked concepts like non-traditional femininity (tomboys and independent women) by purporting that women that prefer masculine roles are closeted trans and so "need to come out" which is ironic, considering their attitude towards 'misgendering'.
At this point feminist rhetoric is a shallow one dimensional concept of 'strong women' that act like the caricature of toxic masculinity/machoism they claim to fight against, and simultaneously reject any older forms of femininity - traditional or otherwise - in lieu of having an amorphous ideology of women replacing men in all regards.
I recently read a feminist news article where feminists were crowing about how Massachusetts has so many women and women of color leading the government and that it was 'over' for men. It'd be childishly silly, if it wasn't what burgers unironically see and support as an ideology.
TL;DR: Feminism has always been idpol, always will be idpol and identarian politics is the enemy of workers movements and socialism by default. If the Western feminists siding with the anti-Soviet Intervention of 1918 wasn't proof enough, then the major icons of modern feminist ideology (Herbert Marcuse, Gloria Steinem, Judith Butler etc.) being CIA assets makes the case rock solid. Feminism purports to fight toxicity, but is just as toxic if not more so than what it purports to fight, and you don't fight fire with fire, nor do you solve inherent systemic problems by 'fixing' the system.
Now again, take this to the idpol thread in /siberia/
No.22412
>>20676 Translation here:
https://rule34.xxx/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=7074562 Archive of R34 page:
https://archive.ph/jzkhrArchive of notes:
https://archive.ph/9SD6Q TL;DR:
Aggressive playgirl lesbian delinquent preys on a cute girl only for it to be turned around on her by the secret futa. No.22415
>>20722>Very much true, but on the other side this requires you to write and create a compelling new story, new art-design, new ideas and essentially be original, which is hard work and requires paying writers to come up with scripts and story-lines from scratch. Nah.
They already have to do all of this when they reboot an older IP, in order to update it and make it more modern or just different. It might cut out a bit of the design work with really early/top-level concept art, but it really doesn't save that much work. They have to come up with new designs for every character to fit a different art style and to be marketable with today's fashion sensibilities. The stories are also usually not just recycling the original, but more like fitting the IP's characters into whatever the current popular story format is.
>Moreover an established fanbase means you have an established audience to milk (never mind that alienating them from established IPs with bad story-telling and idpol is counterproductive to long-term profit). Yeah that's the real reason they do it. Not to save labor on development and production, but on marketing and to exploit the name recognition and nostalgia that already exists.
>They hoped to choke people into accepting their shit-sandwiches, but clearly this is failing to go through.This is a bigger problem than "forced diversity" or le woke SJW cartoons. Old media is just reaching the end-point where it's viable under capitalism. The studios are all Too Big To Fail but can't put out anything novel or decent because projects are too expensive now and if they're not a huge success they lose money. There just isn't that much surplus to extract any more.
No.22418
>>22415>They already have to do all of this when they reboot an older IP Yes and No. Theoretically you can just take old scripts and story lines and just rewrite some dialogue or scenes, that's a lot easier than coming up with an original story. Hell, having established characters makes writing much easier, even if you discard most old story-lines. It's why fanfiction is frankly easier to write compared to original fiction, since some of the work is already done for you, no matter how AU you make the story. That being said, one can create something unique even within an old framework, Thundercats 2011 is a great example of this.
>in order to update it and make it more modern or just different. Very little of that is necessary; from a business angle an established IP has plenty of storylines that require little change from how they were written decades ago, mostly because many older 70s-90s cartoons factored in being made for children and were carefully regulated and vetted to not promote harmful messaging (such as racism) or even promoted anti-prejudicial messaging. The question is whether the writers want to be more original and whether they're capable of being good writers to begin with. Even if you wanted a more diverse cast this can be written well, Static Shock and Extreme Ghostbusters are good examples of using diversity and even addressing diversity issues without being hamfisted libshit.
>They have to come up with new designs for every character Again, with pre-established characters, adjusting and modernizing designs are much easier than coming up with something original from scratch.
>Not to save labor on development and production It is also a factor, less labor needed means less money spent paying workers and fewer workers to pay (which is why Toon Boom format is so popular, like with Teen Titans Go or Thundercats Roar).
>This is a bigger problem than "forced diversity" or le woke SJW cartoons. Both are problems and not dichotomous, the majority of people don't want radical liberal ideology beaten over their heads by corporations, especially in cartoons for children who aren't and shouldn't be involved in socio-politics.
Forced Diversity is a writing problem, it lends itself to poor story-telling and poor characters because the story and characterizations are tokenized. The forcing itself is a problem of socio-economics, where-in Late Stage Capitalism starts to lose cohesion in an oversaturated market and production quality declines, leading to declining consumption and demand, with large corporations doubling down on what they're doing even harder to make up for the decline in profits and accelerating the decline in long-term. When there's clearly unnecessary work being put in a reboot of an IP just to push ideological messages that corporations want but the audience does not, it's bad business strategy, as you're losing money investing into something that isn't bringing equivalent or superior returns. So either the need for profit will force out this ideological nonsense, or the company's will fall and bring down large portions of the economy because of them being "too big to fail".
No.22419
WAKE UP GUYS, NEW TOMBOY THEORY DROPPED
No.22426
>>22418I wonder what happened to Thundercats 2011. The first episode was really good, then it immediately dropped off a fucking cliff.
No.22427
>>22426I actually enjoyed all of it as an atypical hero story. The real problem was that the second half never got made and so cut us off at the narrative low setting up the fight and eventual climax. As for why it was cancelled, unironically because Legend's of Chima was made and lego didn't want competition, and since Thundercats was placed in bad timeblocks, the viewer-count went down.
No.23660
>>10392i miss Tashigi pre time-skip… they ruined her
No.23662
>>23660Yeah, they made her a Nami Clone Post Timeskip, like with a lot of other characters.
I wrote a post about that a while back, on 8chan, gotta repost it in the
>>1732 One Piece thread at some point.
The part where she mindswitched with Smoker was pretty funny TBH.
No.23667
>>23662they all evolve into Nami, just like crabs…
the mindswitch part was really funny indeed, Tashigi smoking and with a pissed face do be something
No.23770
>>23047>>20696It's not just you. Also Gairussian saboteurn's later stuff fits too, though it's harder to tell given how hyper he makes the tits and ass
and balls. I think it's imitation of anime-manga doujin styles from the mid-2000s/early-2010s in terms of shape, detail, shading, shine etc.
No.23771
>>2702I fucking hate instagram so much you wouldn't believe it.
No.23772
>>23750wow. she is handsome
No.23779
>>23775Jizzed in my pants.
No.23780
>>23751My mistake anon, I just felt that without captions the video would be hard to follow. My love for tomboys far outstrips my technical capabilities and practice of english pronunciation.
Here it is in plain text form:
Prolegomena to the science of Tomboys
Human beings are naturally attracted to the energy and spirit of its peers, attempting thus to reunite what was separated in the time before time, the androgynous. Love, like art, is one of the many paths taken in this fundamental act of human self-realization, thus approaching the divine through the act of becoming one.
What is, now, a tomboy? We are here confronted by an archetype, concretized in the kaleidoscope of reality through each person's life experience and sensibility, of those who desire to freely express themselves to the fullest. These energies emanate from an originally feminine matrix, but can then germinate in any direction (similarly to a rhizome) disregarding norms, customs and social constraints that humankind has given itself in the scarcity of resources. This flourishing does not, however, imply an a priori rejection of those biological and anthropological elements that find themselves in harmony with one's idea of self-realization.
Ultimately we covet and long for such a fragment of humanity, crystallized by the term "tomboy", because we desire to be part of this great energy and merriment during our lives. The struggle for shaping a better world and to find one's identity is much lighter when we are not alone. The fact that I, perchance, desire to taste toned abs, biceps and thighs is merely coincidental.
No.23781
uygha go outside
No.23940
Found a Visual Novel called Tomboy: Love in Hot Forge
The VN has you be a medieval guy, kicked out onto the street without money. A blacksmith tomboy, Bridgid invites you to spend the night at her house and from there your relationship continues. Obviously it's lewd, and it's a bit choppy, but I just thought I'd mention it.
Gameplay videos are locatable on pornhub
https://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?viewkey=64f353be57132 A less lewd VN with a supposed tomboy is Tomboys Need Love Too! but I don't know much about it.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/628920/Tomboys_Need_Love_Too/Unique IPs: 72