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Gomrad Spurdo#HTmBuh 05/08/2020 (Fri) 14:04:19 No. 375
How would you go about fixing the Isekai (sub?)genre from its current state of mediocrity and stagnation?
just end the genre and go back to making more regular fantasy anime
>>375 To fix Isekai, you need a grand narrative. Why was we drawn to isekai? It's because that real world has become so bad we no longer hope for a good ending in a real world. A good isekai should be the one that not only provided escapism, but implicit show the solution to change the real world. That's why I really those isekai that have MC quickly accept such things as slavery, because it teaches the readers to think that the only problem with this real world is that they're born unluckily into lower class, but not the system itself.
>>375 No OP bullshit powers No (generic) harem No webtoon art style No braindead MC That's all you need imo.
>ditch the generic copy-paste fantasy setting >develop the mc >don't spoonfeed the audience >actually develop the setting >real stakes >actually make being in a new world a conflict
>>379 >No OP bullshit powers This is really the entire problem with the genre now, for me. As for the source of the problem? A bit of pasta from me on the subject: >Any Isekai that don't make the fantasy natives look like backward morons? <Most older series that are created before the recent isekai boom. >Huh. So where did this new arrogance come from? At first glance, I would've suggested the difference is vidya, since most of the newer and more cringey isekai are implicitly or explicitly running on JRPG/KMMORPG mechanics, whereas the older stories were just fantasy stories. But on some consideration, I think the difference is sex (and to a lesser extent, age). Basically all of the modern isekai are shonen with a smattering of seinen, whereas all the best old isekai I can think of were josei (Twelve Kingdoms) or shojo (Escaflowne, Fushigi Yuugi). During this time shonen/seinen fantasy of course existed, but very rarely using the pretext of parallel worlds.
>>375 I don't know why nobody is talking about it,but the inherent problem of isekai,is that it's not a genre,it's just a pretext,a premise,there is like 4 actual isekai who actually use the whole "another world" trope as an actual scenario. There is a dire need to be an actual link between the real world and the fictional,something that makes the whole idea of going between worlds a meaningful choice for the story to go through. if there is not that,then it's just a generic fantasy story with no stakes. all the things >>379 is complaining about is just bad powerfantasy writing,that has just been poured into it,because we're all craving dopamine in a shitty capitalist hellscape and it sells,so every editor and cynical artist tries to make a buck on it,and the fact that the current market for mangas is now just chasing around the ghosts of the past trying to remake the same thing over and over but having no idea or even envy to do it for most people,and even worse,going into a downward spiral were the demand is always created by the market,so everybody always wants the same thing in the end,if everything is shit,only shit is at the top. This apply also to "old" isekai were the story of the fantasy world is interesting,but the pretext is still utterly asinine.
>>375 > current state of mediocrity and stagnation 1) Bring out another Season of Konosuba 2) Cancel grimdark edgelord shit like Re;Zero and Overlord as well as brainless shit like Log Horizon. 3) Take more obscure isekai LN series that have not been animated and make them.
>>376 Hamefura, honzuki. Theres litterally two female protagonist isekai airing right now and theyre both great.
>>375 >How would you go about fixing the Isekai (sub?)genre from its current state of mediocrity and stagnation? Less powerfantasy. 90% of isekai is basically just a "i went into some version of the past and i am now superhuman with my basic modern knowledge" or "i got litterally given godlike powers". Shows like doctor stone are also just isekais. Make the other world thing something actually meaningfull. At least half of isekais could work the exact same way with just a regular dude from the world they exist in right now. They just put in a dude or dudette from our own world in order to make it more relatable to the audience and because its an easy plot device. Like hamefura is great, but so far you could have had the literal exact same show if instead of the MC "regaining her memories" she just had a vision of those things. Though i guess that would rob us of the slight subversion (though it could have been a lot more on the nose for me tbh) of otome game tropes. Same for things like re zero. How would the show have been any different if the mc had been some random orphan that stumbled into the same place with the same curse? Him being from our own world literally does not play into the story at all. I still like hamefura and re zero though.
>>383 >likes konosuba the most generic "comedy" isekai in existence >dislikes re;zero that has one of the most unique storylines what a fucking shit opinion
>>377 This. We got some gems like Konosuba, but it's time to do other stuff. Maybe 20 or so years from now we will have some fresh ideas for isekai. Personally I would like to see some new attempts at stuff like Slayers and Record of the Lodoss War.
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>>387 >Slayers <animation budget, never that big to begin with, goes down and down with each cour except for small cour-end bump for boss battles <last season isn't even adapting novels but it's still really good <scifi spinoff's animation budget hits rock bottom, canceled in first season <movies/ovas help blunt the pain, but only so much, and eventually dry up also subsequent movies aren't as good as the first movie nor the ovas <studio finally gets more money, fixes animation for home video, new slayers season coming up <voice cast scheduling conflicts, especially megumi-chan is busy with pokemon, love hina, shaman king, etc. <franchise dies <decade later <stars align <new anime seasons announced <official translations of novels even happen <supa hype <new seasons are solidly animated, but otherwise big letdowns, and are mostly original material rather than adapting from novels <mediocre performance <novel translations also halted early, right where anime adaptations did <literally nothing since except (pretty gud) alternate continuity manga FUUUUUUUUUUG. I can still dream, right? I mean, Jojo happened after all these years, even FMP got a new season.
>>388 You never know. I guess it depends on how hard the animation industry gets hit by the new recession and how desperate Japan gets for material to adapt.
>>375 just have more interesting, well-developed settings than 'Dragon Quest without Toriyama' that's all you really need to do
>>389 Yeah, looking into it, the author launched a 3rd arc of mainline novels a couple years ago that's two volumes in by now. So there's a chance something interesting might happen with the franchise soon.
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>>387 Yeah, I think we're really getting burned out. Too many anime have played around with reincarnation into worlds with video game settings. I don't even think the old hook of gender bendered reincarnation is novel anymore since everyone is so used to it and of trans people now. Personally I'd like another Crest of the Stars, with the same deeply thought out setting (the author tried to create his own language just like Tolkein), with epicness and romance. This time I'd just want with less princesses and more communism, and it'd be nice if the main characters weren't essentially fighting withing a neoliberal empire. I'm hoping the next generation of Japanese directors will be further left and so we'll see some pretty cool leftist fantasy soon instead of the usual nationalism + neoliberalism.
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>>386 > the most generic "comedy" isekai in existence It isn't though. Just because Cautious Hero and other Isekai copy its gimmick doesn't mean it's generic since its one of the first to come out. Its satirical and politically incorrect without having an actual ideology and is thus amusing for it >re;zero <unique Time Loops have been an old hat since BEFORE Groundhog Day. Fuck there was a Naruto fanfiction published covering this EXACT concept before RE;Zero was even made. Re;Zero has an interesting CONCEPT, but executes it so horrendously that past the first 10 episodes, it becomes utter schlock. Like SAO it dangles interesting and good moments, only to then kick them to death, like that puppy in Elfen Lied. Edgy grimdark shit and "muh 1 true waifu" is shit that plagues Isekai like SAO or Re;Zero. Either execute the idea fully or don't taint it.
>>392 >it'd be nice if the main characters weren't essentially fighting withing a neoliberal empire LOL, that's a bit of a humblebrag, to say the least. Crest/Banner of the Stars isn't liberal, isn't even feudal, it's outright fascist revanchism. The Abh are basically Space Imperial Japan, playing up their "inscrutabru orientur curture" to justify their totalitarian society as an exotic quirk, and their "teehee we live in space and just politely annex planets under Not!Colonial governors"-schtick is basically Space Co-Prosperity Sphere. But all of that is secondary to the central waifu plot. If you want a politically conscious take on the same basic setting, play SC2.
>>392 I love Crest of the Stars. I have the old translated novels on my shelf. I hope they try adapting it again. A return to scifi anime would be fun. I'd like mecha to make a comeback too, but I'd be happy without it so long as we get more scifi.
>>393 Honestly I really didn't like Re;Zero either. It wasn't bad, but I didn't understand the hype. I guess it had some cool waifus, but I want a little more than that in my anime.
>>394 You totally correct, but I still loved the show and my fascist space elf waifu.
>>375 I stop making them at such as fast pace, and actually pay my animators a livable wage instead of pocket change per cel.
>>398 At least anime uses less 3rd-world sweatshop animation than "western" cartoons do
>>398 Animation coops might be a better alternative. I'm sure it would still have shitty pay, but at least the grunts at the studio could feed themselves.
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>>400 Anti-Seiyu Aktion
>>398 *I would >>399 I'm not familiar with the extent of outsourcing in western tv animation. >>400 Have you heard of the Animator Dormitory Project? It looks pretty interesting.
Communist revolution isekai baybee. Something like gekokujo but with less child sweatshops and magic and more industrialization.
>>399 I think KyoAni.does the.majority.of.their animation in-house and pays their animators well.
>>404 I don't know how well the animators are paid, but they do get salaries which means the studio at bare minimum has to follow stricter labors laws. Given the quality of their animation and the fact they are one of the only studios that isn't paying per drawing I imagine a job there is super competitive.
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Stop having pic related be the focus of the story unironically... or at least have it actually be legitimate and not "oooh I'm horny, let me love this guy for NO real reason"
>>404 Kyo Anime did, but then their studio was burned down by a homicidal madman which killed half of the animators. They're no more.
>>406 >oooh I'm horny, let me love this guy for NO real reason <describing 90% of battle-harem anime Kek
>>407 They have multiple studios, and have recovered from the incident.
Recently finished watching Overly Cautious Hero (Shinchou Yuusha: Kono Yuusha ga Ore Tuee Kuse ni Shinchou Sugiru) Honestly I have to say it was not what I expected. The first few episodes resemble Konosuba, but as it goes on it gets pretty dark and fucked up. It even has a few parts reminiscent of Berserk-tier shit which wasn't directly shown but the implications of which are still nauseating. It still possesses humorous parts throughout though. All in all a decent Isekai series that is relatively well made and possesses plenty of satirical and parodic moments. Definitely would watch again.
>>410 I enjoyed it too. I won't rewatch it, but I would pick up a second season if them make one.
>>411 Checked dubs. I actually wouldn't mind them ending on 1 season simply due to the open-ended adventure potential it allows.
I don't know maybe there should be isekai about this
>>413 >this this being? was there an image to go with your post?
>>410 I enjoyed it more than I should have. When they showed how in the possible sequel they were going to liberate the world where Seiya previously failed I got hard. Really loved the darker parts of the show.
>That ending for Shin Highschool DxD Volume 4. Fuck, Great Red better make a comeback
>>415 >I got hard Excuse me!? >>416 Based trips
This summarizes my opinion on the Overlord anime pretty well, though in less detail since I dropped it very early. https://old.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/h8nzal/i_hate_overlord_its_a_terrible_anime/
>>416 >ending for Shin Highschool DxD Volume 4 Hopefully his Power of Dreams will have something to do with it.
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>>417 >Excuse me!?
>>418 I actually remember liking the LNs a lot more than the anime. I enjoy the overpowered supervillain thing. It's just a nice change of pace from the usual shit, though I still think it is a weird wish fulfillment thing like most the isekai shit.
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>>419 >>416 On the topic of DxD, we should spam ScrewAttack to do a Deathbattle with Issei Hyoudou vs another powerful protagonist of some kind.
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>>1279 On the note of DxD and Isekai I found the only fanfiction for Reborn as a Slime and DxD, which frankly is just begun but already a lot of fun. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13489627/1/Red-Dragon-Slime
Go back to super detailed settings and worldbuilding being expected, '90s-'00s isekai were great.
>>1286 But world building is hard and otaku will eat up any generic half baked fantasy garbage if the waifus are decent.
>>1280 What anime is picture from?
>>1329 It's that slime isekai, won't be hard to find.
>>1329 Its mentioned in my post y'know. Reborn as a Slime.
Holy shit I can't believe how much of this garbage there is. >>1286 Escaflowne was the best.
Have the MC miss his home-world and actively try to find a way back Also, have him be a communist
>>1335 >Have the mc be a communist Based
>>375 Am I the only one who wants to see the "And she don't stop coming" meme used with the Aqua rainbow vomit gif?
>>1280 A similar fic, though more stereotypical isekai--shittish. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13367575/2/Did-I-just-get-Isseikai-d
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>>1332 Escaflowne was Not!FFVI seriously it was good but I think there must've been some actual plagiarism going on
>>410 Some "leftist"weeb got really mad about how Overly Cautious Hero and Konosuba are totally chauvinistic and bad. It was pathetic
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>>2180 Anyone attacking Konosuba is my enemy.
>>2188 Aqua is hot as fuck, I wish there were better doujins of her.
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>>2188 Post more pictures of Aqua, please!
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>>2189 Aqua has decent booty, but I personally prefer the only true goddess Eris.
>>2315 Eris Pads Her Breasts
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>>2316 She has an overall better personality in comparison, which actually makes her tolerable unlike the drunk thot Aqua. So my question is: Does It Even Matter?
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>>2319 >Better Personality Maybe, Aqua is good once she's disciplined. Besides, Eris is a bit of a brevno (log). Oh and YES IT DOES BIG-BREAST LIVES MATTER
>>2319 Firstly, yes. Secondly, idc, I just want my trash waifu
I thought the appeal of Aqua was that she's a dumb bitch.
>>2322 That's part of the appeal to me.
>>392 We're not being burned out, we're just lacking with any one anime/manga/LN that concretely and properly executes the ideas without hamstringing itself with plotholes, poor romantic lines and edginess. SAO abridged actually does the concept of SAO much better than the original. And Konosuba and Cautious Hero demonstrate how one can play with the gamer Isekai genre humorously. Reincarnated as a Slime, which uses gaming mechanics, also is good, because it embraces how OP the character is and manages a good story around it. If this kind of thing was applied to a real SAO-type gaming anime, we'd probably be satisfied.
>>376 >make the main character Yuri-bait FTFY
>>2504 I won't allow you to call Maple and Sally yuribait even if they are
>>2505 Watcha gonna do? Call the Yuri police?
>>375 Do something other than a fantasy setting goddamn Also make the MC just some guy who doesn't have bullshit powers
>>399 They both use the same Koreans
>>2530 Yes, but less of them. I sincerely doubt there's one single American left that draws tween frames professionally for broadcast or theatrical animation, and the number of such Americans drawing keyframes is probably in the triple digits.
>>2503 It amazes me how much better SAO Abridged is than the actual anime. SAO Abridged and SAO Alternative Gun Gale Online are the only good things to come out of that franchise in my opinion.
Perestroika, obviously.
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>>375 The only solution is to pretty much just stop making them and return to tradition (fantasy anime). It seems to be slowly dying on its own, anyway. Also fuck Konosuba, the anime was good (probably thanks to Deen's QUALITY) but the novels ended up turning into what it was parodying and had a shitty open ending, plus the author is a one-trick-pony hack who made at least two other works that are literally just Konosuba but with a few changes. Seriously, go look them up, the guy can't write anything else.
>>2674 Cursed joke >>2803 >novels ended up turning into what it was parodying Because there is only so much you can do before the product has been wrung dry, by which point it's just extended for the monies. >two other works Names please?
>>2803 Eh, I don't mind them keeping the novels going. At this point I just enjoy the characters and want to continue reading about them doing shit. I thought his wrestling series was fun, but I only watched the anime.
>>2803 The same thing sort of happened to Highschool DxD and is exactly what derailed SAO from the beginning.
>>3079 i don't remember SAO being a parody at all but just legitimately honestly genuinely isekaishit
The cheese pizza man can pass reforms.
The Wizard of Oz is a good isekai. Kindred is a good isekai. Just don't make them fanservice for otaku always.
>>3632 What I meant about SAO and DxD is how unique they were in their genre in terms of ideas. DxD has held up for at least 12-16 volumes at least, and I still am interested in the rest of it, however the original 'magic' of DxD was how Issei, instead of being a wussy dude who has girls liking him for no reason and getting all ashamed of pervy things, is the opposite. He's an unabashed pervert who powers-up on the idea of groping and sucking tits. He peeps on girls unashamedly and his saving grace is his loyalty to friends and kindness. He's weak as fuck in the beginning, but through sacrifice and training gains power and the girls he was into start taking him seriously instead of a boytoy. Sure, it gets into a shonen power-wank later on, but that's part of the fun, since Issei is a reluctant fighter, who unlike most Shonen protags, doesn't like having strong rivals and a lust for fighting. With SAO it was a relatively under-rated idea that was wasted quickly. Compare SAO to Log Horizon.... there are no fucking stakes in Log Horizon because death is nonexistent there. in SAO, if you die in the game you die IRL. But SAO wasted this potential instantly, both in the anime and in the LNs. This is why I liked SAO Abridged more. Sachi's death has lasting impact throughout the first season instead of being a forgotten "tragedy". Kirito is not some good person who's also a gamer, he's a broken and slightly sociopathic trauma victim who loves movies and other escapism. Despite his anti-social behaviour, he still is good at heart even if he's cruel in how he goes about it. The S-Class Ragu Rabbit cooked by a maxed out Cooking Skill had a logical result of making any food, real or virtual taste like garbage. There's plenty more, but point is, this is all non-existent in the original. It's so bland that they had to make it up with heart-tugging shit like Mother's Rosario and the brutal-over-reality of Alicization's edgefest. TL;DR They began to squander their potential as steam and inspiration began to be lost.
>>3709 SAO Abridged Kirito is essentially just like Kazuma except with power.
>>3673 Based. >>415 >Seiya For a moment I thought you were talking about Saint Seiya and I was hyped, then I realized this was referring to a different show... I am dissapoint.
>>5051 Hail Eris?
>>5051 >I was hyped, then I realized this was referring to a different show I realize this sounds like Kayaba from SAO Abridged now.
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>>805 Youjo Senki thread BTW
>>375 >make the setting something more interesting than just generic fantasy or video game world, something that would actually create interesting contrasts for the protagonist >alternatively, or additionally, make the protagonist something other than ordinary nondescript Japanese guy, give him interesting traits >no harem or powerfantasy bullshit >it doesn't even have to be a fighting or adventure plot Essentially fish-out-of-water stories are supposed to be interesting because of the contrasts between the MC and the world, most isekai is just blatantly "life sucks I wish I was an anime protagonist". No meta shit either. I mean parodies and """deconstructions""" are alright but they're no solution and eventually become saturated themselves. You're just binding yourself to what's problematic about the genre. Someone else mentioned Wizard of Oz. Literally one of the most famous stories in English literature is an isekai: Alice in Wonderland. But truthfully it'd be best to let it die for a while. Sometimes something is so overdone and tired that even a good version can be hard to enjoy.
>>5455 Pretty solid solutions
What anime needs is another GATE that isn't gross JSDF propaganda, maybe more in line with how StargateSG1 did it (which was in turn USAF propaganda but way better done).
>>5458 >GATE that isn't gross JSDF propaganda GATE without JSDF propaganda would just be another generic shitty isekai instead of a nationalist right-wing shitty isekai.
>>5471 not at all, since it presupposes a civilizational level connection, not just the shitty MC that gets wooshed away. the terrain of colliding worlds on a grand scale is much more fertile ground than the tired fish out of water setting
>>5476 Go watch Outbreak company.
>>5458 The key with Stargate was in making Earth a low-tech backwater usually protected by little more than obscurity or treaty obligations between actual galactic superpowers, and Earth itself only eking out wins against them by exploiting preexisting tensions within/among its enemies and encouraging allies to play to strengths they didn't know they had through an "outside the box" perspective. Ironically, in spite of USAF involvement (possibly even because of it, on a horseshoe basis of the conflict between 'merkin ideology, versus actual behavior deeply contradictory with those ideological ideals) I think Stargate's story ideologically feels less like imperialist propaganda, and more like anti-imperialism. There's even an interesting contrast in how Earth handles these utterly superior enemies between SG-1 and Atlantis **. Where in SG-1 Earth wins through these machinations playing on the weaknesses of great powers, versus Atlantis, where Earth's presence in Atlantis just desperately makes even bigger messes and fucks up repeatedly because it's just Earth and totally marginal allies versus one pretty much unified enemy.
Make it so their isekai is just a state if psychosis that has real world impact.
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An interesting Isekai is Reborn as a Spider. I usually dislike CBR but this article is actually fairly good. https://www.cbr.com/okina-baba-so-im-a-spider-so-what-not-typical-isekai/
>>5599 Keep in mind that while it's really good for quite a while (not as fast in the manga as in the novels, but still eventually) it does the typical isekei thing of going UTTERLY and COMPLETELY to shit once powerlevels get too high.
>>5584 too bad Kon is already dead or he would have been the man for the job
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>>5614 Man, his absence never stops hurting. Though thinking of him, Paranoia Agent's message was about 70% of what the most vicious and laser-accurate takedown imaginable of isekai's worst failings would look like.
>>5599 What's fucking interesting about this? That she starts as nothing and... quickly becomes OP? What a snore.
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Here's an isekai idea for y'all (it's ironic since I remember having a similar idea, but instead it was a socialist MC who convinces Dragons and Dwarves to work together).
>>5599 double checked, nicu-desu >>5624 It's subverting tropes typical - i.e. le handsome bishounen getting to live the real life! - having it be a spider and let shenanigans ensue. >muh power up No shit, it's a silly escapist fantasy, not a serious work. Nobody claimed it was. >>5604 All good things come to an end usually
>>5633 I haven't read them, but there's already isekai novels/anime/manga kind of like that (about using the MC's economics knowledge in a fantasy setting), such as Koushaku Reijou no Tashinami.
Anyone here watched/read Drifters? Literally the only good isekai I ever encountered. Its about bunch of historical figures being send to the generic fantasy world, with mission to either save it or destroy it. It utilizes the isekai premise really well, lot of focus is on showing how introducing these foreign elements into the fantasy world changes it. Like the fact that a guy knows how to produce gunpowder, or retro-engineering pieces of technology they brought with them are key plot points. Also the main villain is probably Jesus Christ. It is illustrated by the same guy who did Hellsing.
>>5849 I watched the first season it was great some stuff was a bit weird and I have no idea how they want to continue the story but overall pretty neat. Will there be a second season?
>>5849 fash garbage LMMAO
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>>5857 Havent heart anything about second season, first one covered 40-50 chapters, and currently the manga is on 80, so there is not enough material to adapt yet. >>5858 I would not say it is fascist, thematically its kind of like edgier Lord of the Rings. Uniting people of all races to defeat great evil and all. But yes, it has that Japanese quality where you can tell author does not share our sensibilities concerning WW2.
>>5615 currently rewatching and taking notes because I didn't understand it on a first viewing, I'll have to take your word for it lol >>5493 gave the first episode a go, it looks good. significantly more trashy than I would have liked, I guess you can't have it all tho
>>5892 >currently rewatching and taking notes because I didn't understand it on a first viewing If you watch while understanding the main message to be "self-deception is bad", the show obviously hammers nonstop on these points. I think it couldn't get any blunter than in the final episodes when the older detective smashes apart a literal cardboard fantasy of his idealized memories after his frail wife singlehandedly fights off the gargantuan Shonen Bat with nothing more than a stern lecture on sincerely accepting her own failings and making do despite them.
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>>5493 gotta say, they almost lost me with the beach episode, but luckily best girl came through in the end


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