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Hinterlands : America's New Landscape on Class and Conflict Anonymous 07/12/2020 (Sun) 04:56:01 No. 684289
Anybody else read this? Thoughts?
I'd reccomend giving a summary of what the book claims.
>>684289 what is it about?
>>684294 It is about the decay of the countryside and outer suburbs of America (the "Hinterlands") caused by the new globalized economy, about the far rights activity there and a bunch of other stuff. The writing is sort of scattered, but it is very interesting.
uhhh not OP and haven't read it but found this review that looks good so far https://libcom.org/blog/class-struggle-frontiers-hinterland-14022019
>>684299 where can I get a pdf?
>>684309 Dude shut the fuck up nobody cares, this isn't even kind of related to this thread.
>>684302 Don't know.
>>684302 It's on libgen (dot) is
>>685771 based, thanks
>>685771 The way he talks about economic crisis in that insane lovecraftian way really hits.
>Economic activity shapes itself into sharper and sharper peaks, centered on palatial urban cores which then splay out into megacities. These hubs are themselves encircled by megaregions, which descend like slowly sloping foothills from the economic summit before the final plummet into windswept wastelands of farm, desert, grassland,and jungle—that farthest hinterland like a vast sunken continent that met its ruin in some ancient cataclysm, populated now with broken looking people sifting through the rubble of economies stillborn or long dead. ngl, I kinda like his writing
>>686272 It seems like a work of literature and well as theory, very metaphorical.
Going to post more excerpts to get more people interested. >The Crisis is maybe most visible in the desert because the Crisis makes deserts. And it is these deserts that make the militias—or at least that make them an actual threat. The grim potential of these new Patriot parties arises via their ability to organize in the vacuum left by the collapse of local economies. It’s easy for city-dwellers to dismiss the militias as simple far-right fanboys playing soldier in the Arizona desert, but that’s because the real deserts are largely invisible from the metropolis—they are simply too far beyond its walls. The progressive narrative, embodied in an entire sub-genre of think piece that we might simply call Tax Collector Journalism, therefore tends to treat these issues as if nearby ruralites just “oppose taxes” and therefore bring such funding shortfalls upon themselves. A slightly more sinister variant argues that, by backing candidates that reject increases in property tax, small, often out-of-county Patriot groups actually construct the crises facing these rural areas.
>>688788 >But these positions are nonsensical when we consider the fact that the collapse of revenues drawn from the land via extractive industries also means a declining property value for these lands and therefore a diminishing base of property taxes to draw from, all accompanying the disappearance of any commodity tax from timber sales, for example. To claim that this crisis was somehow “created” by anti-tax conservative ruralites or by small, relatively recently developed anti-government groups simply ignores that the basis of tax revenue is in industrial production, whether taxed at the level of capital, commodity sale, land ownership, or wage income. Less industrial output means either fewer taxes or a higher share of tax-to-income for most residents. Increased property taxes likely cannot be afforded by small landholders, for whom employment is sparse—and therefore the progressive’s alternative of increasing property taxes is simply a program of dispossession for small landholders. It is no wonder, then, that these smallholders align themselves with ranchers, miners, and even larger corporate landowners (all of whom will be paying the largest lump sum in taxes) to oppose such measures.
>>688788 >Tax Collector Journalism I very much like this new term. we should use it
>>688814 >It is here that the class basis of the far right begins to become visible. With new members joining the Patriot Movement drawn from a generation less convinced by the old militias’ narratives of racial supremacy, the ideological focus of such groups has instead turned largely to issues of land politics. Visions of race war have been replaced by a (nonetheless racially coded) prophecy of oncoming civil war that pits diverse, liberal urban areas against the hinterland. It is easy to seize upon the more conspiratorial aspects of these fears (such as the claim that the UN is set to invade the U.S., with the help and preparation of the federal government) in order to dismiss these movements wholesale, but doing so tends to obscure the fact that these groups are responding, however incoherently, to their experience of the Long Crisis and the new geography being created by it. The results are inevitably grim and occasionally made visible in sweeping acts of political devastation, the urban liberal weeping at the shore of a blood-red ocean stretched between California and New York—an expanse somehow invisible until 8 November 2016, the 18th Brumaire of Donald Trump.
>>688821 >In reality, the far right’s political base is not defined by sheer xenophobia and idiocy, and their political analysis, though sprinkled with occult themes and mystical logic, is not entirely hollow. To take a common example, the idea of George Soros secretly funding the most violent aspects of things like Occupy Wall Street and Black Lives Matter is a common trope, and it is only the more extreme version of a widespread perception that urban elites use forms of government patronage (in particular welfare and affirmative action) to buy the loyalty of minority groups and thereby turn them against “working people” who have no access to such patronage. Progressive critics often point out the ways in which this theory and many affiliate conspiracies mimic the anti-Semitic narratives of the old militia movement, drawn from the historic far right. But what this critique misses is the simple fact that these conspiracies approximately, if incorrectly, describe structures of power so pervasive as to be mundane to most people.
>>688841 >The Democratic Party does (obviously and publicly) fund “radical” projects as a method of co-optation (rather than radicalization, as the right would have it) in its constant cultivation of a strong, radical-in-garb-but-centrist-at-heart base among labor unions,NGOs, local governments, and any number of “community” organizations claiming to represent particular minority groups or simply “people of color” as a whole. This patronage is not evenly allotted to the urban poor, however, and it largely does not come in the form of “welfare” as the far right argues, but instead as grants, campaign funding, charitable donations, and services provided by churches, ngos, or local governments—much of which is allotted to the upper-middle-class segments of disadvantaged populations, rather than those most in need. This method of co-optation and recruitment is therefore part of a real alliance built between the liberal upper segments of dispossessed urban populations and the particular fraction of elites who fund the Democratic Party. This is the Democratic Party machine. There is nothing conspiratorial about it. Those were the last 5 out of 8 paragraphs of the chapter called Deserts. Hope you found it interesting.
thought about sharing the book's conclusion, see what you all think >A number of theories have arisen to try and account for how these features might be combined in some speculative future evolution of current struggles. Clover condenses a number of loosely fitting theories about “communization” into a clear argument for “the commune,” defined by its ability to facilitate self-reproduction while also “absolutizing” the antagonism of the riot. The Invisible Committee offers fleeting glimpses of something similar, though too shrouded in smoke and flowery French prose to be entirely visible from our present vantage point. Many anarchists offer yet another sketch, founded this time on an “autonomy” that tends to conflate small-scale moments of self-reproduction in squats and occupations with the nationalist or proto-nationalist enclaves of populist movements in the global countryside. Frederic Jameson, meanwhile, represents a popular strain of academic Marxism in opting for the older language of “dual power,” founding the reproductive and extensive capacity of future struggles on the reinvented institution of the “universal army.” Despite their myriad shortcomings and many different vocabularies, all of these theories share the recognition that the evolution of the riot is a process of building power within the interstices opened by the Long Crisis. >Personally, I don’t understand the compulsion to mine history for words that might describe what’s to come. The fact is that the approaching flood has no name. Any title it might take is presently lost in the noise of its gestation, maybe just beginning to be spoken in a language that we can hardly recognize. There will be no Commune because this isn’t Paris in 1871. There will be no Dual Power because this isn’t Russia in 1917. There will be no Autonomy because this isn’t Italy in 1977. I’m writing this in 2017, and I don’t know what’s coming, even though I know something is rolling toward us in the darkness, and the world can end in more ways than one. Its presence is hinted at somewhere deep inside the evolutionary meat grinder of riot repeating riot, all echoing ad infinitum through the Year of our Lord 2016, when the anthem returned to its origin, and the corpse flowers bloomed all at once as Louisiana was turned to water, and no one knew why. I don’t call people comrade; I just call them friend. Because whatever’s coming has no name, and anyone who says they hear it is a liar. All I hear are guns cocking over trap snares unrolling to infinity.
>>686232 Yeah, as someone in the hinterlands it's definitely got that "midwestern gothic" feel.
>>689042 The far or near hinterlands?
>>688788 Damn.
>>689038 >I don’t call people comrade; I just call them friend.
>>684289 It just sounds like more apologia for the petit bourgeoisie of the Midwest
OK then, this represents the third non-standard theory I've heard regarding why the flyover states are full of nazis. To recap: 1) The Jehu theory (after Postone) - Continued increases in machine-facilitated productivity have eroded the ability of commodity producers (especially agriculture, but also mining and manufacturing) to produce value, which has rendered the large population that worked in those industries increasingly superfluous. Fiat currency was introduced and progressively devalued to control production and keep the economy afloat (what Jehu idiosyncratically refers to as 'fascism'), but this 90-year delaying tactic is nearing the end of its efficacy. So midwesterners are nazis because that's what happens to the poor assholes that get cut loose from a sinking capitalism. The solution is an immediate and deep reduction in the working day, with an eye to decoupling labour and consumption entirely. Communism is what happens when value (and by extension prices and wages) hits zero, value production has hit essentially zero, so all we need to do is to formalise/recognise the condition that already exists on the ground. UBI and various other measures are pointless, at best they're obscuring the facts on the ground and at worst they're delaying the inevitable. 2) The Greer-Tainter 'Catabolic Collapse' theory - Peak oil didn't stop being a thing just because we stopped talking about it, and collapse isn't the rapid bloody process that the apocalypse fetishists thought it would be. Catabolic collapse manifests as a slow 'cancellation of the future' (to borrow a phrase from Fisher), driven by the inexorably rising cost of energy extraction. Bit by bit, society is less able to spare the energy to administer itself. Like a person freezing to death, it starts at the extremities and moves to the core. Support to rural areas slows, then stops. No new infrastructure is built, and what already exists stops being repaired. The areas furthest away from the imperial centre are forced to manage their own affairs, a material circumstance that drives a thousand petty nationalisms. Without a new source of energy, these petty nationalisms get reified as the unifying state lacks the energy to resist dissolution. Rome turned into feudal Europe after they had to go too far afield for new slaves, and it's happening to us while we crow about how technologically advanced we are for doing fracking, a technology that was known about but considered too expensive for decades. So midwesterners are nazis because the entire oil-fueled global order is collapsing and the roof's hitting their heads first. The solution is a new source of energy that has at least the EROEI that oil used to. Terrestrial renewables are right out, their EROEI's too low - they won't stave off collapse, they'll just characterise the literal neo-feudalism that follows the eventual collapse. And now 3) Neel's 'Hinterland' Theory: Capitalism's crises (specifically crises in the profitability of rural and suburban industries like resource extraction and manufacturing) have concentrated all of the wealth in the cities and sent all of the commodity production overseas. Very well-characterised by this snippet: >and therefore the progressive’s alternative of increasing property taxes is simply a program of dispossession for small landholders So midwesterners are nazis because they're being ideologically led by the last of the kulaks, just now being dispossessed by economies of scale in agricultural production. The solution will grow as an extension of the riot, as people who have fallen into society's ever-widening cracks are forced to make a living there, like a scaled-up version of the mole people societies that live in the tunnels and drains of the metropoles. Though the details are still hazy, a decisive Thing is looming out of the inky blackness that has settled around our view of the future. The rumblings that this Beast makes in the tenebrous depths of The Next Little While are reflected in the themes of the literature being produced by many contemporary sections of the Left. Formal general strikes and 'parties' with 'programs' won't cut it, they're relics of a time when not so much solid stuff had melted into air.
>>689643 There is overlap between the first and the third, and the second seems like part of the logic for the first and third, but the third seems to be the most coherent to me, as someone who isn't familiar with any of them. Would you mind elaborating further? I kind of have ignored Jehu since he gets memed on here but I'm going to read this Hinterlands book
>>689643 First one makes no sense really.
>>689643 1 and 2 are just "lol capitalism is collapsing" which is obviously from just driving through the place. It doesn't explain why they are nazis, unless you just assume that being white and downwardly mobile just flicks on the nazi switch. The hinterlands theory is the only one that explains anything.
>>689643 Add on the Sakai theory from Shock of Recognition
>>689996 >Would you mind elaborating further? That's the wrong question to ask me, buddy. You're right that there's a lot of overlap between the arguments. I think it's to be expected, in a 'blind men touching an elephant' kind of way. The actual truth is likely to be a mixture of all three positions, because history and society aren't neat like my precious sterile STEM labs. Also note that the first two arguments weren't originally aimed at explaining 'what's the matter with kansas', I've just tried to extrapolate their premises to relate them to the topic at hand. Also all errors must be assumed to be mine and not the original authors'. Frankly I think that regardless of the root cause, Neel's theory best explains why the politics of the hinterlands have taken the trajectory they have. Regarding root causes, I think it's interesting that >>690023 lumped 1) and 2) as 'capitalism is collapsing', since neither Greer nor Tainter are in any way Marxists. As a matter of fact, the manner in which Greer claims society is collapsing is a far cry from Marx's predicted trajectory for capitalism. To be fair, the exhaustion of society's basic energy (and food) supply was not something even remotely relevant in Marx's time, being before even the Haber-Bosch process. I think Greer is one of the only people I've seen who (correctly) point out that terrestrial renewables are no substitute for oil and their mass deployment will not allow production to continue on its current path, which is enough for me to forgive him for being the arch-druid of north america or whatever dumb shit he's on. I think Greer is mainly useful as a competing situation. As in, while all this shit is happening with the capitalism's crises and accumulation &c. &c., we're also low-key running out of the thing that's the basis of our whole society, it's causing issues, and it'll be a big problem for whatever society comes out of this next episode of Capitalism's Bullshit. Jehu, on the other hand, sees capitalism collapsing 'in the other direction', as it were. Certainly his monomania for Marx means that his arguments are more in line with Marx's predictions compared to Greer. He argues that we're just now reaching the limit of capitalism's ability to maintain itself by debasing the currency, one of the last things delaying the lack of value production from causing a reckoning that requires a reorganisation of production or else the mass destruction of production - communism or barbarism. He argues that this general crisis already happened before in 1929, we were presented with the same choice, and we chose barbarism, an extended period in which the state is forced to step in and do exactly what Marx said it would have to do. https://www.reddit.com/r/abolishwagelabornow/comments/hemsiy/a_graphic_representation_of_postones_argument/ this post and the ongoing series of posts in his blog is relevant to this argument, he even cites an earlier example of the clearing out of labourers rendered superfluous by the development of agricultural productivity - namely, the small-holding Oklahoma farmers of the Great Depression. The fact that I don't provide a clear reason for why his conclusion is 'we have to reduce labour hours immediately' is because I quite frankly don't really understand it myself. I tend to find Jehu's economic arguments to be quite strong, and I greatly admire his desire to bring empirical rigour to what he categorises as "philosophizing bullshit", but I find his prescriptions for action quite lacking. I can appreciate the principle of what he's going for. He basically argues that capitalism either is doing or has done most of the work of dissolving its own basis and abolishing itself, our work is essentially giving a little push that precipitates a reorganisation - like how bumping supercooled water precipitates ice formation. But I think, despite his criticisms of them, he listens too much to the communisers, who are actually just a bunch of french poseurs. Also I don't really understand the "communism is free time and nothing else" motto. Bear in mind that I haven't done nearly as detailed a reading of Jehu as I'd like and both Grossman and Postone have been taunting me from their position atop my to-read list. Perhaps despite my verbiage I'm actually just Dr. Brainlet, PhD. I can't in good conscience provide more detail on Neel's argument, as all I wrote was what I gleaned from the summary provided here. Bad form, I know. When I eventually do read him I hope he goes into more detail (ie, numbers) about the processes that stripped the wealth and industry of the midwest, because I sometimes hear conflicting reports about the true nature and extent of this process - namely that production capacity didn't go down nearly as much as is claimed, only employment. Or that neither went down for substantial parts of the region, and the problems are located elsewhere - perhaps limited to exhausted resource extraction or comprehensively automated agricultural labour. As someone who grew up semi-rural though, I have a soft spot for anyone that a) remembers that kulaks still exist and b) dumps on them as the reactionary historical relics they are. In conclusion, kulaks delenda est. An interesting commonality with theories 1 and 3 is the complete rejection of the 'working class' as a relevant section of society. For Jehu it's because they've effectively already been abolished by the superfluity of their labour. For Neel it's because, similarly, more and more people are being locked out of engagement with capitalism entirely, left to build a society of their own in the Cursed Earth outside Mega-City One. Both, I think, could trace that idea back to Hardt & Negri's 'multitude', through the later notion of the 'precariat'. They also share in common the notion that full, not-a-dream, not-a-hoax, communism is or should be on the immediate agenda for communists today. Having seen a vast chunk of the population laid off this year with no appreciable shortages in production, I'm increasingly coming around to this way of thinking. Really very little of the labour done in society today is actually necessary, it does seem very reasonable to think that the 'lower phase of communism' is either entirely unnecessary or else has already passed us by in a heavily distorted, capitalist-led form. >>690038 Could you give a summary of his argument? I have a blind spot when it comes to Sakai. I tried reading Settlers but I found that it resembled a liberal sermon more than a Marxist polemic so I didn't get very far. Perhaps I was just in a shitty racist settler-colonial mood at the time though.
Gotta be honest, I'm tired of Leftcom prose. This isn't a fucking art project, I want to learn about class dynamics and social conflicts in the American countryside not the authors hot takes on what a city is.
>>690229 Marx did the same thing though >Capital is dead labour, that, vampire-like, only lives by sucking living labour, and lives the more, the more labour it sucks. The time during which the labourer works, is the time during which the capitalist consumes the labour-power he has purchased of him.
>>690220 Just read the shock of recognition. Essentially he says fascism is a radical ideology that overthrows the big bourgeois for the sake of petty profiteers and labor aristocrats. With the fall of the white settler labor aristocracy, they are now open to fascism.
>>690229 leftcom prose is based
>>690220 First worlders getting laid off and production going down proves nothing. The third world actually makes stuff. The first world is just consumers enjoying their mall economy, obviously they're useless.
>>690229 Interesting to hear what you think of it.
>>690010 How so?
>>690238 >fascism is a radical ideology that overthrows the big bourgeois for the sake of petty profiteers and labor aristocrats Hitler basically had major corporate sponsors, so the argument's not off to a great start. And isn't the labour aristocracy just used for votes and militancy suppression? Perhaps I'm just reading you wrong (it's 3 AM), but it kind of sounds like the labour aristocracy gain some sort of power under fascism? Also what specifically is meant by "petty profiteers"? I realise that presumably all of these questions could be answered by reading the text, but I'm just leaving this here and going to bed. Also I quite disliked Settlers so I need a little more oomph to give Sakai another go.
>>690269 He shows in "The Shock of Reginition" that Hitler's major corporate sponsors didn't really control him and that fascism actively worked against the big bourgeois. The people who really supported Hitler were the declassed and petty-bourgoise along with the middle class, and with power, Hitler destroyed the old proletariat by promoting it to bureaucrats and handlers of the new slave imperialized proletariat. Sakai thinks that the same sort of thing, an overthrow of the big bourgeois state and a mass parasite state could come from the white settlers recently losing their labor aristocrat status in the face of globalization.
>>690220 The problem with the Jehu/Postone gang and others is if you write off the existing proletariat as a revolutionary subject you essentially have no base for communism. The arguments that we could riot or general strike our way to a communist society via the multitude or the most oppressed are as weak as they were 100 years ago. Absent a revolutionary subject in the west, you either end up accepting that communism is impossible or take the hyper-SaKKKaist position that America must be bathed in nuclear fire and Xi Jinping should rule the world in the name of the Real Proletariat of China.
>>690277 >He shows in "The Shock of Reginition" that Hitler's major corporate sponsors didn't really control him and that fascism actively worked against the big bourgeois. The refutation of this is that Hitler continued pushing the invasion into Russia when it was obviously futile. The only possible explanation can be that he acted on behalf of imperial expansion for capital. Trying to paint Hitler as an anti-capitalist is cringe.
>>690308 Sakaist think the revolution will come from the 3rd world. no ? China is not third world.
>>690315 Read the piece bruh, it makes sense.
>>690308 Couldn't Postone be read as a third-worldist, then?
>>690277 He doesn't actually prove much. He just says that Hitler had to "bribe" the German industrialists for their support, while handwaving away all the shit he actually did which favoured the big bourgeoisie at the expense of the petty bourgeoisie. Honestly Sakai's takes in Shock of Recognition only make sense if you consider fascist rhetoric to be a more accurate indicator of its nature than fascist actions and policies. In fact he literally says this at one point in regards to Mussolini.
>>690349 Unrelated, but opinions on Hinterland?
>>688788 >it is these deserts that make the militias Who will be American Muad'dib?
>>690358 Haven't read it yet but I will get on it soon. It's actually quite relevant to other things I'm working on.
>>688788 >Tax Collector Journalism, therefore tends to treat these issues as if nearby ruralites just “oppose taxes” and therefore bring such funding shortfalls upon themselves. A slightly more sinister variant argues that, by backing candidates that reject increases in property tax, small, often out-of-county Patriot groups actually construct the crises facing these rural areas. But enough about the causes of early feudalism in Late antiquity.
>>690220 >we have to reduce labour hours immediately it's covert austerity/degrowth. If you face a crisis of overproduction, but don't want to impoverish people by reducing production through keeping people unemployed, this is what you do. Work less, produce less. Have a long depression but "share" the unemployment. The leisure time is the trade off for the end of growth in consumption.
>>690370 What are you working on?
>>690428 Master’s thesis comparing the applicability of Gramscian vs ML theories of fascism to the contemporary American far right.
>>690323 It does not make sense, the Americans fully joined the war only when the CCCP military was already defeating the Fascist military, they did not want to risk loosing too much territory and population to the socialist system.
>>690229 >t. admires Stalin for his prose >>690317 >Sakaist think the revolution will come from the 3rd world. no ? China is not third world. If they think that, it implies that there will be no revolution if and when the Third world develops like China did. China did not depend on a colonial empire to develop (though are accused of assembling one now to continue growing), so if you allow that China is developed, then that means colonial empires are not needed for (the greater part of) development
>>690435 Sounds cool. Post it when you finish it?
>>690445 This is confusing... No you don't need a colonial empire to develop, the soviet union developed without it, and like you said so did China. Maybe the United Kingdom needed colonies to develop because they were a small island with a small population, lacking internal labour surplus to support development ? What do you mean with China being accused of assembling a colonial empire to continue growing ? Do they not know what a colonial occupation means ?
>>690476 >Do they not know what a colonial occupation means ? yes
>>689643 >So midwesterners are nazis because they're being ideologically led by the last of the kulaks, just now being dispossessed by economies of scale in agricultural production basically walking up to the answer and then turning away. If the working class elsewhere either disengages politically or radicalizes, but the "working class" of the hinterlands turns to fascism then that means........
>>690489 What? They're not working class?
https://brooklynrail.org/2020/07/field-notes/Crowned-Plague new article by the writer of hinterland
>>690489 He doesn't actually say in this book that they turn into Nazi's, he says he is actually optimistic about how much they HAVEN'T turned into nazis given how fertile soil people think they are. More often, the people of the far hinterland are politically disengaged, and as seen with the rise of trump, petty bourgoise vote while lumpen proles and proles mostly sit out.
>>690499 This. Remember that the strongest and most consistent support for Trump and his ilk has been from upper middle class petty booj and labour aristocrats. Not lumpenized former labour aristocrats.
>>690489 it means they are lumpenproles, yes, the other feeding ground of fascism beside petit bourgs
>>690496 cool, thanks for sharing
>>690466 Sure but it will be several months. I'm still in the early stages.
>>690532 lol nice host
>>690532 >>690542 gta radio station type intro
>>690524 upload a copy on libgen (dot) is so that it doesn't get erased when the thread it's posted in dies
>>690242 Thanks, I'll have a long train ride tomorrow maybe I can dig through, doesn't seem too long.
>>690561 Yeah its only about 175 pages long.
>>689643 1 and 3 combined are the correct analysis
>>690550 yeah lol also he's a vegan farmer
I'm struggling to figure out where exactly the "near hinterland" is in a city like Baltimore. Maybe Dundalk? But the inner city is still black, still poor and still in the process of being gentrified.
>>690684 Also Dundalk isn't exactly hyper diverse, its mostly poor whites, but it is the only place with a "logestic" economy like he describes.
>>690360 Does Bob Avakian have any kids?
>>690774 I hope not
>>690684 Actually now that I think about it, the suburbs that used to contain middle class black people are now getting poorer. I think the racial aspect has obscured the facts of gentrification from me.
>>690774 The Avakian species reproduces by budding.
>>691034 No he bites you and then you turn into one.
>>690423 I think the argument is somewhat the other way around. According to Jehu/Postone, the vast majority of labour done today doesn't have anything to do with the production of value OR use value. Consider the fact that government spending, definitionally uninvolved in value production, accounts for anywhere from 40-60% of any given nation's GDP. Other analyses by the likes of Harman suggest that the economies of first-world nations might be as much as 75% superfluous labour. Jehu/Postone essentially argues that this superfluous labour is a sort of austerity measure of its own, directing labour away from value production. This is made explicit in agricultural subsidies, where the government pays farmers not to produce in order to maintain profits. So then, it's not so much 'work less, produce less' as it is 'work less, produce the same'. Jehu's demand is also specifically for a reduction of hours with no reduction in pay, since the intent, I think, is to drive up the price of labour in order to exacerbate the fall in the rate of profit and mitigate contervailing tendencies. Which I suppose brings us to the heart of my trouble with Jehu. On the one hand, I think his general strategic orientation is impeccable. Capitalism is too big for us to battle head on, we have to use leverage. Fortunately, capitalism contains real tendencies that point to its dissolution and superseding by communism. Our strategic orientation should absolutely be to apply the needed leverage by exacerbating those existing tendencies. The fact that the vast majority of the Left seemingly doesn't agree with that is a black mark against their name in my book. Having said all that, my problem with Jehu is that I don't think he takes his logic to its conclusion. He recognises that capitalism is too big to move on its own, but is seemingly unable to recognise that the mass of people needed for his 'leverage through superfluous labour reduction' plan to work is similarly immobile. We need a lever for the lever. In decades past this 'lever for the lever' took the form of the most advanced section of the working class. Honestly I'll be fucked if I can find them these days, though.
>>691329 >Jehu/Postone essentially argues that this superfluous labour is a sort of austerity measure of its own, directing labour away from value production. By this logic, then, the 'super-exploitation' of the third world is not so much the evil first worlders and their labour aristo henchmen sucking the global south dry. Instead, value production is just so miniscule that the third world is the only place where you can pay a worker according to the actual exchange value they produce. An 8 hour day in the shoe factory nets you 50 cents not because your labour is worth 6 cents an hour, but because despite working 8 hours you've only done a few minutes of socially necessary labour time, and are paid accordingly.
>>691334 Possibly the same conclusion as Sakai or other third-worldists, but removes all the moralism to which I am deathly allergic.
>>690220 >it does seem very reasonable to think that the 'lower phase of communism' is either entirely unnecessary or else has already passed us by in a heavily distorted, capitalist-led form. This is all true but it misses the superstructural aspect of the transition to socialism. The Modern citizen is bourgeous and not only that but also draconian, which is a failure of liberalism, meaning that the citizen believes in the stractification of wealth and "feudalisms" or "tribalisms" such as racism or sexism. These things drag the revolution down through what is basically cultural whinning and lack of progressive conceptualization
don't go halfway down the catalog you cunt thread, i'm not finished with you
>>696627 Interesting but also >muh PEE EM CEE'S
>>696627 I mean, its a decent theory, but I don't believe the meme that the DSA/Bernie style social democracy is literally all muh middle class. Clear its not. It was a rather unstable coallition of working class and people of colleges avoiding their downwardly mobile fate.
>>696657 I mean you could sort of make the accusation that all political movements are movements of “people of colleges” or similar middle class categories. Most political movements draw heavily from these groups regardless of orientation, including actual communist ones. The real question is what made up their base of support, not their activist/staff core.
>>696627 >Imagine two horse shoes touching each other So like a circle? >No, no, it is two horse shoes like this drawing It looks like a drawing of a circle >No, not a circle, this is double horse shoe theory. And in the middle of the two horse shoes, there's a skull and there's a single vine growing from inside the skull that sort of wraps around the horse shoes too. Wouldn't that be sick? Yeah, I guess it would be.
>>696682 Basado
>>686290 >It seems like a work of literature and well as theory, very metaphorical. You mean meaningless?
>>696652 Tired of this term already.
>>696627 it's ok, but I don't get why he whitewashes billionaires. they clearly do have outsize influence on politics, often in idiosyncratic ways, yet he just dismisses them as a group just so he can keep raging at "managers"
>>696652 >>703781 t. (aspiring) people of colleges
So I've started reading this, and I've come up with a few notes and observations so far. Here's something that I find particularly interesting: Consider how neoliberal atomization may be introducing a dialectical conflict which appears to have been overlooked, almost as a relic of the birth of modernity. Put in Hegelian terms, this conflict could be described as a thesis (neoliberal atomization), antithesis (tribalist and communitarian tendencies), and synthesis (an alternative modernity, similar to that sought by original fascism). If this were the case it would make the current movement something of a close cousin to fascism. By this I mean to say that it is drawn from similar sources, and as a result expresses itself in a similar way, however it is being driven by a fundamentally different central contradiction. Original fascism represented an alliance of the petty bourgeoisie and monopoly capital against the threat of socialist revolution. It too possessed a distinct anti-modernist, anti-cosmopolitan strain, however it could easily be argued that this played second fiddle to the central contradiction of capitalism and socialism. To borrow a concept fro Mao, the anti-modernism of original fascism may be considered to be a secondary contradiction, and class conflict to be its principal contradiction. However we now live in a world where the relative strength of these forces has been reversed. The working class by and large lies defeated, while globalization and atomization has reached unprecedented heights. The contradiction which presents itself front and centre to the average member of a Patriot militia is not the nationalization of property (although this still looms large in their imaginations), but the dissolution of communitarian bonds, and thus atomization may now be the principal contradiction driving the movement. This gives rise to a phenomenon which contains all the same ingredients as 20th century fascism, but in different proportions which may produce something unique. Indeed, while the Patriot movement and far right is overwhelmingly white, there are even mirror images of this phenomenon among racial minorities, particularly blacks. Consider for example NOI, Black Israelites, New Black Panthers, and other Black nationalist organizations which also possess strong elements of resistance to neoliberal atomization, and the search for a renewed quasi-spiritual organic community. These of course come from radically different contexts, and thus express these sentiments in radically different ways, even if there is a common underlying force. This is the 'organic' description of the forces driving the American right, however its conjunctural elements must also be considered, ie the cultural, historical, and political context which colours the details of far right ideology. To identify a handful of elements off the cuff, we may consider the longstanding anti-communist populism of the US since the 1950s (and before), the false association of communism with the UN and globalism, increasing racial diversity as an expression of globalism, cosmopolitanism, and the corrosion of traditional communitarian bonds, etc. None of this is of course mutually exclusive with the more typical economic forces and conjunctural elements already noted, such middle class anxieties about racially coded proletarians, the middle class tendency to externalize economic woes to interlopers rather than capitalism, and the conflict between globalized and domestic capital and associated economic sectors and demographics. The point is that original analyses of fascism may have underplayed this element precisely because socialist revolution was actually a credible threat in the 1920s and 30s, while atomization was far less advanced.
>>707522 >thesis - antithesis - synthesis
>>707522 what do you think of his prose?
>>707538 It makes the book far more enjoyable to read, although I worry it may be obscuring what he's actually trying to say at times.
>>702580 cringe, read it
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>>707522 So what you are saying that fascism is more based in cultural anxieties and race narratives where as in the 30s fascism was indicative of reaction to socialist revolution that is to say class based anxieties. The importance of the superstructure has definitely superseded base economic conditions in matter of importance but both forms of fascism lie in the basic fact in that it is a social movement that arises when contradictions between modes of production and culture reach peak contradiction within one another. This probably explains why modern nazism is more esoteric and occultist; it seeks to form an organic (paganish?) commune that achieve post-racial, homogeneous utopia of one sole master race wiping out humanity in what can be compared to as a doomer's wet dream into climate change apocalypse fiction LARP.
>>708917 Eh sort of. I mean the issue of dissolution of the white middle class community is intimately linked to economic forces. For example the decline of the middle class as a result of neoliberalism is introducing new strains on these communities like poverty, drugs, etc which are corrosive to their cohesion. Migration and the free flow of labour favoured by globalized capital is leading to a decline in their security as the dominant culture. It’s more that the apparent culture war which looms so large in the conflict between neo-fascism and cosmopolitan liberalism is an expression of the conflict between globalized and domestic capital, and their associated middle class elements (urban people of colleges vs rural petty bourgeois/labour aristos). With 20th century fascism, anti-communism based on class interest was the primary material contradiction, and anti-modernism, anti-cosmopolitanism etc followed from that contradiction. Here the central economic contradiction is between cosmopolitan and national capital, and anti-communism follows from that for a number of reasons rather than being its source.
>>709065 Exactly right, both the patriot movement and bernouts are looking to preserve the "real economy" against global cosmopolitan capitalism.
>>708917 Except that this time, fascism also has decent support in the middle class people or color, in its own flavors. Read the shock of recognition by J. Sakai.
>>709073 >Read the shock of recognition by J. Sakai. I have, it’s bad.
>>709076 Well you're cringe and think office workers are proletariat, so...
>>709076 You literally agree with Sakai for what I was saying. See >>707522 >there are even mirror images of this phenomenon among racial minorities, particularly blacks. Consider for example NOI, Black Israelites, New Black Panthers, and other Black nationalist organizations which also possess strong elements of resistance to neoliberal atomization, and the search for a renewed quasi-spiritual organic community.
>>709082 >You literally agree with Sakai for what I was saying. I know, but Shock of Recognition is still bad for all the other nonsense it says about 20th century fascism. >>709079 Yeah and Sakai thinks the Nazis and Italian fascists were radicals who overthrew the establishment. That’s a million times more cringe.
>>709083 >radicals who overthrew the establishment. Do you think mass murdering Jews was done for profit or something? Did you read to much Bordiga and come to actually believe Auschwitz the great alibi? The holocaust proves that the Nazi state was not under the beck and call of the capitalist class. At most, it incorporated capital comfortably as a pillar of new Aryan murderous imperialist class collaborationist society, but could certainly subjugate it to its massive projects of unprofitable and costly extermination.
>>709087 It doesn’t matter if they were at the “beck and call” of the industrialists or not. They systematically eliminated every possible threat to the German elite and went out of their way to funnel huge amounts of money to them through rearmament and war profits. In practical terms the Nazis were absolutely working in the interests of the German bourgeoisie, even removing elements of their own party that wanted to oppose them. The Holocaust itself was integrally linked to the plan to colonize Eastern Europe, ie a fundamentally imperialist project that no doubt would have made the German bourgeoisie immensely rich if it had succeeded. In fact Generalplan Ost was just a scaled up version of Manifest Destiny, and consciously so. The industrialized killing with gas chambers and such that is associated with the Holocaust really only began in the last two years of the war, when defeat was already inevitable (and many top Nazis knew it). The fact that the Nazi imperialist project failed doesn’t somehow disprove the fact that the Nazis were a fundamentally conservative force. It’s also worth noting that Sakai barely talks about Italy in that piece, probably because the Italian fascists were working as hired thugs for landowners basically from day one.
>>709093 The Nazi style of Colonialism was a class collaborationist, not bourgeois project. Its goal was to create a new slave proletariat or foreigners and turn the German working class into petty farmers on the new frontier, bureaucrats and managers as well as military men. This was in the interest of the German ruling class, but also aimed to destory and promote the German working class out of the proletariat.
>>709087 >thinking that production for profit was a relevant factor after 1929 ibm and krupp steel get paid fake currency to do unproductive labor no value is exchanged but money circulates, the system limps along how the fuck you expect to help communism along if you don't even know how the world economy works today
>>709105 >muh left coom post value meme shut the fuck up, don't care, didn't ask, plus you're white.
>>709101 None of that is incompatible with the notion of the Nazis as a conservative and reactionary force.
>>709113 Was American colonialism conservative?
>>709113 What I am saying is that it was not primarily a bourgoise state, but rather a labor aristocrat state, with these labor aristocrats bound to the interests of the bourgeois and thus presuing mutually beneficial colonialist imperialism.
>>709108 respectively: no, you should, and maori actually thanks for playing
>>709142 Not in its context no, but only because they were spreading modernity and capitalist relations of production to premodern, pre-capitalist corners of the globe. All social formations are progressive in a given context. Liberalism was progressive at the time of the French Revolution, but is reactionary at present. The Nazis were not spreading capitalism to the pre-capitalist world. If anything they were imposing a pre-capitalist system on the capitalist states of Eastern Europe and the socialist USSR. >>709150 >What I am saying is that it was not primarily a bourgoise state, but rather a labor aristocrat state I think that this may have been their end goal, but they were never able to establish it. In the prewar years their relationship with the working class was characterized by systematic destruction of proletarian institutions and the gutting of the social safety net. Once the war broke out German proles were just food for the meat grinder.
>>696662 Maybe that's exactly the problem, that working class people don't make up the staff and activist core of these movements
>>709239 That's always the case though. Most of the top ranking Bolsheviks were from middle class backgrounds as well. I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing, it's more a question of how the activist core relates to and serves the interest of its mass base, as well as working to incorporate members from that base into the core (also something the Bolsheviks did).
>>709244 Bolsheviks are a failed project though, that middle class activist party base is what produced people like Gorbachev and Yeltsin.
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>>709249 It's also that they had to compromise with the peasants in order to get anywhere, since Russia was a country that depended on peasant labour. There is no fast-track to the revolution. You have to do it the proper way, or it's not worth doing at all; you will just end up where you started.
>>709249 You mean the activist base which was killed of during the purge? Yes, the USSR was basically a technocracy, but it had a lot more to do with the necessity of managing production, the party bureaucracy becoming intertwined with professionals (creating what can be described as the nomenklatura) and the lack of any kind of worker's self-management.
>>685771 Thanks lad.
>>710342 You're welcome
I think you're all overthinking this, suburban/rural whites are right wing because they're mad that whites are becoming a minority.
>>711761 >they're mad that whites are becoming a minority. why though
>>711795 >be paleskin grog >darkskin grug tribe starts moving into paleskin grog tribe's cave >paleskin grog no like
Bump, this book seems to be a very important read with everything going on in the US. I'll be starting it today, has anyone read the full book yet? I've got a strong feeling that shit will hit the fan after the election in November, so I've been working to better my understanding of the class struggle in America right now.
Do the hinterlands exist anywhere else outside of america? Like Russia?
>>730020 Yep. Read the book.
>>690445 Stalin's prose is amazing >The foundations of Leninism is a big subject. To exhaust it a whole volume would be required. Indeed, a whole number of volumes would be required.
>>755993 based
>>709087 holy shit quit shilling Sakai when we all dislike him for valid and objective reasons as to his analysis of working class and fascist movements, he may be right on a few things sure but large chunks of his analysis are colored by a retarded perception of the world which makes his conclusions unworkable.
What I find interesting is applying this to countries outside of America - we see it in Spain with the gradual growth of independence movements in Catalonaia, but also Basque county and Andalusia, in France with a lot of the Foix, Normandy, and Occitanian nationalists, in the UK with the gradual appeals for Scottish and Welsh independence, ect. To me it makes it seem like America is not so far along in the process yet because there hasn't been a consolidation of what would amount to "petty nationalisms", like the formation of say, Appalachian nationalism or something. By this metric, Germany is also quite early in this process, and Russia is likely middling in this process.
>>711761 That's the explanation they give. What they're really mad about is the fact their towns and neighborhoods are devolving into opioid addicted hell holes with no future. The right wing news, AM conspiracy theorists and pastors all tell them it's the darkies and homos fault.
>>685771 >>684289 >New landscape of CLASS and conflict White this Black that Latino this White that Black this
>>759998 yeah you could start writing papers for your local situation with this new theoretical framework
>>759966 rent free
>>711795 They haven't forgotten Rhodesia and South Africa.
>>760877 >What they does blame LGBT for is approaching children. Trying to teach childrens about genders was already bad, now drag queen HYUCK HYUCK HYUCK DEM SHEMALES BE TALKING TO MUH KIDS >some of them being sex offenders, are sleeping with 8 year old kids Lol ok >What they blame blacks for is welfare use and the always increasing taxes that come with it this hysteria is hilarious once you actually crunch the numbers and figure out who is getting welfare off of who. If white trash took out life insurance and proceeded to overdose on fentanyl, their children might actually have a future. Hicks are already content to uigher off of the taxpayer for ~100k when junior wants to go to college anyway
>>760931 Cringe and libpilled.
>>711761 If that were the case then we would expect to see reactionary sentiment across the board but we don’t. Educated urban whites are generally pro-liberal idpol.
>>760936 In Amerikkka, class is a toothless abstraction without looking at race and nation. The facts are this. There has never been international solidarity or whatever. The white workers were racist, the black nationalists with sexists and homophobic, the suffragettes were racist, the jewish civil rights league were anti-worker and racist, etc, etc, etc. Everyone is just trying to get the biggest slice of the pie they can and will utilize any hierarchy they can to make a grab. Everybody in Amerikkka only really cares about their own struggle.
>>760951 Thats why black disabled trans people are the only group dedicated to really overthrowing all hierarchy.
I think the far hinterland type described in thus book is mostly doomed. They are the last vestiges of the "cowboy" "self sufficient" whitetariat. Most of the industry in these places is all run by immigrants. The entire poultry industry is basically ethopians and Central Americans at this point. Farm labor is all Mexicans. The boomers are used to a standard of living that is now unsustainable and unnecessary for the empire, so they're being replaced, and the next generation of the working class will be their children, along with the immigrant population that does a whole lot of the actual work in the US at this point.
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>>760931 Woke and Berniepilled. Whites can't be poor. >>760930 >Nothing bad happened to whites in Rhodesia Picrelated. In South Africa, president Zuma have sung kill the boers on TV. He say cops should not investigate when whites are killed and he want to change the constitution so he can just take whatever whites have. Just in case you wanted to fight racism, this is racism.
>>760965 Fuck Boers. They are literally parasites and leeches, they are no proletarian Boers, only labor aristocrats and bourgeois. They are a race of parasites who came in and strung south Africa out for everything it was worth, slaughtering the locals and destroying their culture, home and lives. The fact that the ANC let them keep the land they stole is fucking outrageous. They live in big ranch homes fit for a wealthy man in a first world nation, while the blacks live in ghettoes and shanty towns with a 70% poverty rate. Shoot the Boer is a good slogan if the government had any balls to actually do it. Instead they are allowed to keep all their wealth and keep exploiting the black populace. If I was South African, I would vote for the EFF. The land belongs to the locals, not neo-colonial colonizers.
>>760978 Now I'm not saying what Mugabe did was a good idea, he pulled it off poorly. But in principle it was good. He just should have done it with a bit more moderation so he could train replacements before taking the colonizers farms.
>>760965 Racism against colonizers who stole your country and killed your people isn't called racism, its called justified revenge.
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>>760978 They come to flee the religious wars in Europe and came with their agricultural technologies. The part of South Africa they live in was left barely utilized with only a few hunter/gatherer tribes on it. It was a win for everyone, as the local tribes who didn't even had cooper tools got to enjoy the standard of living of Europe, even starting their own farms once they understood how you take care of crops. Then, they found gold and the Great Britain invaded, invented the concentration camps because they couldn't win a bush war and expended in all direction after. Boers aren't the evil guys of the story. >>760984 But he couldn't. He rose to power by uniting war lords under his name. He had to appease the war lords after victory, and that mean easy money, and that mean tanking things. Once he started he just wasn't able to stop it, if he did he would just have suffered a coup. He had to take one thing, and then another, and then another and when whites were deposeded of everything he began to take from blacks. You don't reach 90% unemployment without being comically evil.
>>760986 Oh boy revanchism
>>760986 Ha, yes, killing working class people who happen to have the same skin color than the former elite class isn't racism. It's class warfare. Just as giving full power to a small class of rulers who have the correct skin color. This is the only way to defeat capitalism.
>>761003 First of all, not true. Apartheid propaganda. "Oh the land was empty!!" No. Second, I don't care about the history, the Boers are currently parasites. If I am black and I become bourgoise, it doesn't matter if I came over on a slave ship, I'm still a parasite, just as the Boers, who live in a first world nation while the black population lives in the ghetto with 70% poverty rate. The Boer's stole land that did not belong to them and helped the rise of a colonialist state. >>761011 Working class? Maybe. Proletariat? Hell no. no one can deny that there is a Boer white working class in South Africa. They exist in the millions, in mines and offices and factories. They are wage-laborers. Yet, as a whole, they produce no (as in zero) surplus value. Economic studies show that all the surplus value created in South Africa is created by Afrikan labor. The Boer white workers’ wage-labor is merely an indirect mechanism for them to share in the exploiting of Afrikans. That’s why Afrikan workers live in dusty Soweto and the white working class lives in ranch-style homes with cars, appliances, .357 magnums, swimming pools and cheap Afrikan servants. They are a working class, alright, but a parasitic one with no real class consciousness and no contribution to make to the liberating of the world.
>>761003 >as the local tribes who didn't even had cooper tools got to enjoy the standard of living of Europe, Literally colonialist propaganda >Ohhh Britain increased the living standards in India! We had to help them by murdering them and stealing from them! White mans burden!
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>>761015 >Economic studies show that all the surplus value created in South Africa is created by Afrikan labor. Given how the rainbow state try to break economically the remaining whites, I find that hard to believe. Boers have lost powers centuries ago, and today not even Anglos have any power in South Africa. Why would capitalism give them a pass? >That’s why Afrikan workers live in dusty Soweto and the white working class lives in ranch-style homes with cars, appliances, .357 magnums, swimming pools and cheap Afrikan servants. This time is long gone. It's not the 80's anymore. >If I am black and I become bourgoise, it doesn't matter if I came over on a slave ship, I'm still a parasite, just as the Boers, who live in a first world nation while the black population lives in the ghetto with 70% poverty rate. Exactly. You must choose a fight, the race fight or the class warfare. Going after whites is dividing the working class.
fuck boers
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>>761096 It's not possible. Take the endnotes-pill and accept that the socialist project was tied to an ascendant workers' movement that no longer exists in the way it did a century ago. The conditions that concentrated and socialized the industrial proletariat in urban zones, centered them as the progenitors of progress and development, yet isolated them from bourgeois society and institutions are long gone. We've had decades of social-democratic cooption and welfareism, but also suburbanization and urban decay, deindustrialization and financialization. Modern workers are highly fragmented and atomized, uneducated and deskilled, distrustful and wary of each other and ignorant of the economic and political structures they inhabit. This is a recipe for balkanization (you can see it right here in this thread!) and apathetic deference to the status quo, not organizing and party-building. The future will be urban riots and suburban apathy all-around while fringe radicals on the left and the right try desperately to drum up support for political causes long since rendered anachronisms.
>>762058 Cry more first worldist. You act like the industry is going away and that class struggle is gone, no, its just been exported. The real struggle continues in the third world where industry is a thing. Keep crying about how you got too expensive to pay to do industrial work for a the most part. Also read the fucking book. The industrial capacity of the USA still exists and it CANNOT go away, it is the threads that hold the globalized economy together, the shipping warehouses, docks and all the logistical industrial infrastructure that compromise the new center of the working class, the decaying inner ring suburbs.
I was eying this thread for a while as the books subject seemed quite interesting. So I finally decided to try and read it. It is really surprising just how similar the "hinterland" phenomena of China or US is similar to the things that are happening in tiny eastern European states. The word "one city republic" has often floated around these parts, and it is undeniable that the outer regions are absolutely fucked beside a few lucky cities that are historically or economically significant. Even more curious to read through the entire analysis now, and would recommend the book for others, at least from first impressions.
>>763936 Thats the state of the hinterlands structure, including in the developed world now.
About to clean up this thread and ban everyone who continues rule-breaking in here.
>>763936 Sounds like Wales tbh
Why isn’t there a single book about urban conditions and the brutal dismantling of urban communities/the urban working class? The first victims of neoliberalism weren’t suburbanites or ruralists, it was people in the cities who saw industrial manufacture disappear, saw all social programs vanish, saw a brutal Drug War to further fragment and disappear workers in the urban environment, and finally gentrification in hand with mass imprisonments to fully clear out neighborhoods of working class (particularly black and hispanic) people so middle class college-educated people could move in. The urban proletariat isn’t only subject to being left behind by the advance of finance capital, unlike people from rural and suburban, they’re subject to out and out covert war with the police as their occupation force >Inb4 muh coastal elites The gentrifying scum aren’t the urban proletariat, they’re expeditionary forces for the further accumulation of finance capital via the dispossession, imprisonment, and murder of the urban poor
>>764448 thank you it was getting really out of hand
>>764989 But there are I'm pretty sure Mike Davis talks about it in his books, for one
>>765172 >>764448 Based mods.
>>765221 >Mike Davis Can recommend City of Quartz
Ok, I'm 1/5th through and I do have a few questions. I always assumed that deindustrialiation is only a phenomena of the mature capitalist states like US or Europe, so why is it also happening in developing nation like China? The author describes how the situation there is quite similar, with industrial towns popping up and drying up as fast as they appeared. Why is this? Also, isn't he making a mistake about saying that it is the disenfranchised hintermen that voted in Trump? Perhaps the author covers it in more detail later, but as far as I was aware, his base were the privilaged suburban whites, Florida retirees, petty porkies and soy grower kulaks. I though the people that Hinterlands describes would far more often be non-voters.
>>770100 >I always assumed that deindustrialiation is only a phenomena of the mature capitalist states like US or Europe, so why is it also happening in developing nation like China? The author describes how the situation there is quite similar, with industrial towns popping up and drying up as fast as they appeared. Why is this? Well for one China is not really "developing" anymore, it is fairly well developed save for rural parts of the country (much like the US, but without as crushing poverty). China is trying to shift away from being an industrial export economy because it fosters reliance on western powers to buy your goods, and instead is going for a more self-sufficient modern economy, with enough industry to sustain the home country and their foreign policy of developing Africa, but also a service industry, professional academics, ect.
>>770100 Like the other Anon said, China is not exactly a “developing” economy anymore. Per capita they lag far behind most western countries, but as a whole they are the most heavily industrialized country in the world. Moreover you also have to consider that Chinese capitalists, like their Western counterparts, want to maximize profits. So if they can make more money by outsourcing production to poorer countries, they will do so. Remember that the consequence of China’s amazing poverty reduction is increasing wages and thus lower rates of profit, which is what caused Western porkies to start outsourcing in the first place.
>>690232 No he didn’t you cherrypicking prick
>>690010 The first one is more or less orthodox marxism
>>772686 othrodox morpheus larperism maybe.
>>772918 stay mad
>>772918 Remind me, who is morpheus? He is another Rafiq-esque figure, right?
>>770116 >dengists faces when China deindustrializes and starts policing the world
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>>773013 Morpheus from "The Matrix"
>>773045 What does Morpheus from the matrix has to do with anti-work shit? I vaguely recall that, at least I think, a person who called themselves Morpheus did some Marxist theorizing online, so I wanted to know more about them if that's the case
>>773024 >that dang man said good words therefore good future one way or another Capitalist base; capitalist interests above all others.
I'm about 50 pages into Hinterland, and I really can't recommend it enough. An interesting point made so far in the book is the division between the new far-right (what Neel calls "National Anarchists") and the old far-right (neo-nazis, KKK, racist right in general). The new right is driven by opposition to land rents and taxes and is centered in the far hinterland of the western US. Its goals are localist and communitarian in nature, unlike the ultra-nationalist old right. The National Anarchists sometimes use racially coded language, but it is not explicitly racist. These two movements are tenuously united under Donald Trump, but the author says that Trumps election was a premature power grab which has given the far left some space and opportunities. It's important to keep these two rightist factions divided. It's a dense yet readable book, and the author has some really interesting insights. I especially like his term "National Anarchism" as it perfectly describes the libertarian/AnCap basis for the new right. It's a much more accurate description than "fascist".
>>684289 Brilliant book so far, very readable. Beside his theory I think the way he describes the areas hes talking about is very engaging, like the section where he talks about the miner who had an aversion to sunlight and then went mad. It captures that weirdly omnipresent terror of capitalism. Very book report 101 post, but its easily the best leftist book i've read in a while just cause im not forcing my self to finish it.
>>773076 The anti-work guy Jehu, enjoys larping as Morpheus from the Matrix.
>>773185 >Miner who went insane Read it today and that scene rrally got to me, not in a sad, but dread inducing kind of way. The writter has a lot of literary talent, especially as the things he describes come from his own personal experiance. That "Firebomb" scene was also something special.
>>773187 He doesn't seem to go out of his way to "larp" as Morpheus; this just sounds like projection.
>>773205 Whats the firebomb scene?
>>773113 >sometimes use racially coded language, but it is not explicitly racist. I am pretty sure they are racist just not aggressively racist, they are more like "equal but separate" types that are in capable of imagining a world that isn't an ethnic zoo
>>773423 I think a lot of the time the issue isn't so much that they're consciously racist as it is that they genuinely buy into the views on race espoused by the GOP. Which is to say they may hold racial biases, may support policies which are implicitly racist. They also likely hold beliefs which are a kind of "soft" racism, similar to the kind of shit Ben Shapiro says about "black culture" being the cause of crime and poverty in black communities. This is a soft form of racism because it definitely portrays blacks as uniquely responsible for their poor conditions, but due to reasons which are not hardwired, and can be overcome with hard work. In other words they may think blacks are a bunch of criminals and welfare queens, but they don't think it's because of the shape of their skulls. They are also unlike Nazis or the KKK in that they accept the existence of "good" blacks or other minorities, provided they meet the right criteria. You'll find at least some black Three Percenters or Oathkeepers, but you won't find any black klansmen.
>>773502 I agree but there seems to be a generalised and near pathological rejection of the idea that the issues colored people have come systemtic problems, it seems that the idea itself "hurts" their pride and ridicules them, perhaps it is because it shatters the idea of america the freest place on Earth
>>773861 Upper class whites want to think they are the shit and they got where they are by hard work and their own two hands. Admitting they got some help from their skin color along the way is a massive ego bruiser. Lower class whites want to think that even if they are poor, they are good hard workers who are in real value above those uighurs even if they are currently living with them, and the idea that the only real difference is systemic racism is similarly disconcerting.
>>773502 Soft racism is basically just a proxy for regular racism. Basically nobody thinks its culture. They hate the uighurs, and they can't say its because of genes so they make up some shit about culture, anything to stop thinking about the systemic racism problem.
Holy shit the qoutes from this book are awesome. I've been trying to explain to urban comrades for a long time (pretty ineffectually) that remnants of white flight is only part of the explanation for why rural areas are so much more aggressively Republican than the cities. We've been fucking abandoned by all levels of government except the local, which is often too poor or too corrupt (or both) to really do anything, and that leads to a lot of incoherent anger. These angry rurals can be reached, and it fucking kills me every time online I see people being all "well the rural areas are all fascists anyway, fuck them"
>>773898 It still does exist. Whites are favored in jobs, loans, housing, etc, and the feds and cops are still pretty dedicated to disorganizing black communities specifically with drugs and mass incarceration, but obviously the wealth gap created by Jim Crow and Slavery is a big factor, possibly the biggest.
>>773209 Where he translates the song Firebomb to the passengers of the Chinese train
>>690308 >if you write off the existing proletariat as a revolutionary subject you essentially have no base for communism Correct. They are right though ergo communism isn't happening - atleast not for quite some time > accepting that communism is impossible At this time yes >the hyper-SaKKKaist position that America must be bathed in nuclear fire Not happening > Xi Jinping should rule the world in the name of the Real Proletariat of China. Dengism isn't remotely communist
>>773937 Communism never ever
>>761003 Good post. But no point arguing with racist sakoids.
>>761037 Yes but that's ok as long as it's not whitey Sakoids are racist brainlets and all they care about is race. Mirror image of /pol/
>>773936 >>773209 >I am united with the migrant worker by our shared class, age, and rural background —but in each the specifics differ so wildly that they seem to prevent any direct connection based on simple life experience. This is the unity of separation that is not yet the unity of any subjective orientation toward revolutionary potentials. >I tried to talk about riots in the u.s. and Europe, police murders, and the Arab Spring, and to ask about the riots and strikes common to Chinese factory cities—but too much was lost in translation. He just shrugged and pulled out his knock-off iPhone, pointing to a picture of a Rihanna album cover and signaling for me to put my ear near the speakers so I could hear the song. He liked the music but didn’t know what she was saying, he explained. Could I translate? The train rocked back and forth, the tracks now curving up into the mountains of Yunnan province. Okay, I said, fumbling through my dictionary. >It was later now, and the lights in the cars had all been dimmed. I squinted at the pages, turned blue by the glow of the screen. A young, shirtless man with fierce eyes wandered past us aimlessly. It’s a love song, I said. The construction worker nodded. We went around a sharp corner, and the shirtless man, not holding on to anything, tumbled into the pile of trash bags that had been accumulating between cars. Others squatted down to help pull him out, and he emerged with a bitter nonchalance, the same fierce look on his face. She’s saying that she wants to set you on fire, I explained to the construction worker. The shirtless man wandered over to see what I was saying and others followed. So she doesn’t have to burn alone, I continued. >Everyone nearby huddled around, not out of any particular interest but just because something seemed to be happening, fingerless workers gripping with what they could to stay in place, young women cradling cups of instant noodles as the train pitched back and forth, the steam rising out and weaving between bodies. She says that this is how you’ll know where she’s from, I said, translating literally and then wondering if maybe the metaphor isn’t clear: the fire is how you’ll know what she means, I try to explain. The iPhone screen glowed in the center of everything, coloring the steam from the noodles a soft electric blue. “Fire bomb,” I again translate the term as literally as I can: huodan, an incorrect portmanteau which could as easily mean fireball or burning bullets, but with the tones wrong, it could also refer to a shipping manifest. In the eyes of the huddled people, the screen glinted back sharper than the original, compressed to blue sparks and blade-shapes cutting across dark pupils. Many had seen factory bosses beat and harass people like them; they’d seen civil police do sweeps in the major cities, arresting street hawkers and requisitioning their goods. But they’d also seen those same factory bosses walk out at the end of the day only to meet with mobs of migrants led by hometown associations—and those civil police outnumbered twenty to one by people no longer willing to put up with their abuse, the crowd chasing them into their police vans, overturning the vans, pulling the cops out limb by bloodied limb. The fierce glow was something more than a reflection. Huodan, I said again in garbled, mistranslated nonsense that nonetheless made sense. Fire bomb, burning bullets, a list of freight goods to be moved from one corner of the earth to another. The song ended and the screen of the phone went black but people still huddled together in the darkness.
>>773937 >Correct. They are right though ergo communism isn't happening Jehu writes off the proletariat as a revolutionary subject, but he by no means concludes that communism isn't happening, or isn't happening soon. I might be misstating things somewhat, but he essentially posits that capital is the revolutionary subject. To him, communism is simply the society that would logically arise from the material conditions created by capitalism's development and inevitable collapse. That is, the contradiction at the heart of capitalism - using labor as the measure of value while simultaneously minimising it - must eventually lead to a situation in which the law of value can no longer operate, which would require production to be reorganised without it. The result of this reorganisation would be communism. This process of capitalist development and collapse, the "real movement", happens regardless of anyone's actions or desires, but it can be expedited through conscious activity on the part of the organized working class - specifically, by seizing control of the means of production specifically in order to deliberately develop them at a rate beyond that which is demanded by the market, minimising labor content as quickly as possible and forcing the breakdown and abandonment of the law of value. Somehow this argument got twisted in order to paint him with the 'accelerationist' brush, but if he's an accelerationist on that basis then so are Marx and Stalin.
>>690371 >But enough about the causes of early feudalism in Late antiquity. It really does read like the rise of the Bacaudae in late Roman Gaul from Salvian
>>690476 >Maybe the United Kingdom needed colonies to develop because they were a small island with a small population, lacking internal labour surplus to support development ? Most British colonies were a net financial drain on the exchequer, aside from India. Colonies are not profitable for national governments or people, but for a small minority of business owners and traders.
>>690269 >Hitler basically had major corporate sponsors, so the argument's not off to a great start. To play devil's advocate, fascist 'theory' such as it is, is far more radically anti-finance and hostile to big business than it is in practice. Big business was scared of Hitler, but they were far more scared of the Strasserist wing of the Nazi party and the left.
>>776399 >That is, the contradiction at the heart of capitalism - using labor as the measure of value while simultaneously minimising it - must eventually lead to a situation in which the law of value can no longer operate, which would require production to be reorganised without it. >minimising labor content as quickly as possible and forcing the breakdown and abandonment of the law of value. I might be somewhat of a theorylet, but this really doesn't make any sense. How does the labour content per good decreasing should lead to a breakdown of the law of value? Does the analyzis assume that the labour content will one day hit zero? Well, that is literally impossible, and I don't see how it would be impossible to account by labour even if the good only carries a minimal amount of labour, hell, worst case you just measure by batches of goods instead of individual ones. And this is all assuming we can indefinetly decrease the labour content. Empyrical observation over the last half a century seems to only show that the productivity tends to increase less and less, possibly due to capitalist inefficiencies.
>In essence, the election of Trump represents a premature seizure of power, opening more potentials for the far left than for right-wing militias. At least someone finally gets this, holy shit.
>the real political advance visible in the far right—and the thing that has made possible its recent ascendance—is the pragmatic focus on questions of power, which are religiously ignored by the American leftist, who instead focuses on building elaborate political programs and ornate utopias, as if politics were the exercise of one’s imagination. It is this focus on building power in the midst of crisis that distinguishes the partisan from the leftist, and the oath is the present organizational form of partisanship.
>>777259 >>777292 This kills the radlib
>>777296 >Marx portrayed the alliance of ruling interests as a “Party of Order,” since their conception of political upheavals was one that could see such events only as chaotic aberrations. These are individuals for whom the world is nothing but pelts, the economy a vast machine that unites the interests of humanity with that of capital. To be slightly more concrete, they are those urbanites who woke up on the morning after the election and looked around themselves in shock, as if someone had tied ropes around their ankles and dragged them out into the rust-spattered American bloodlands while they slept. Their expressions utterly ashen, they frantically tapped their phones trying to order an Uber to take them back home. But the Uber would never come. >They earnestly could not conceive of a world in which Hillary had not won. How could people be so utterly crazy, they asked themselves, before scouring Facebook for a litany of responsible parties—racist ruralites, third-party voters, those infinitely troublesome anarchists, or that vast majority party in American politics: the faithless zealots of the “Did Not Vote” ticket. The Party of Order is defined by its desire that the riot or insurrection be simply smoothed over. They want reforms to be implemented. They want us to let the slow gears of justice turn. They want body cameras on cops. They want community policing. They don’t see enough black faces in the room. They just want everyone at the table. The Party of Order therefore opposes both the extreme left and the extreme right. For them, the problem is “extremism” as such, and the maintenance of the placid, atonal status quo.
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>The [hinterland] way of life has been destroyed in a devastating, irrevocable fashion, essential industries torn out from under us, ecosystems razed, and everyone left suffering not just material deprivation but an expansive social and cultural collapse that can only be characterized as apocalyptic. >The many new non-denominational Christian sects that sprang up in the early stages of this collapse offered a simple solution for the dead: to become born again. But now even these sects are shrinking as people see what the tweakers’ heresy had perceived all along: the born again are born dead or die soon after through the thousand sacrificial cuts of daily drudgery. The rapture of apocalypse is therefore not on its way but instead long past. We’re adrift in its wake. >As even the new Christian sects collapse, a vacuum is left at the social core of the small towns and expansive counties that compose rural America. This vacuum has not yet been filled, but the tweaker is in a way a vanguard of whatever’s coming
>>777375 The fuckin prose my man
>>777296 >Traditional methods of transforming class antagonism into racial difference are beginning to reach a sort of saturation point, as unemployment, mortality, and morbidity rates all start to overspill their historically racial boundaries. The effects of this are extremely unpredictable, and political support will tend to follow whomever can offer the greatest semblance of strength and stability. >But the left is neither strong nor stable. Liberals ignore these areas because low-output, low-population regions very simply do not matter much when it comes to administering the economy—and that is, in the end, what liberalism is about. The far left, on the other hand, has long been in a state of widespread degeneration. It has retreated from historic strongholds in the hinterland (such as West Virginia, once a hotbed for wildcat strikes and communist organizing) to cluster around the urban cores of major coastal cities and a spattering of college towns. >One symptom of this more widespread degeneration has also been an inward turn, mass organizing replaced by the management of an increasingly minuscule social scene and politics itself re envisioned as the cult-like repetition of hollow rituals accompanied by the continual, self-flagellating rectification of one’s words, thoughts, and interpersonal interactions. Theoretical rigor has atrophied, and the majority within the amorphous social scene that composes “the left” only vaguely understand what capitalism is. This condition tends to blur the border between left and right, as both will offer solutions that lie somewhere between localist communitarianism and protectionist development of the “real economy.” >Another symptom is the neurotic obsession with anatomizing oppression and the assumption that revolutionary activity must originate from the “most oppressed” within a population. Class war and the revolutionary potentials that can be opened by it are inherently contingent—there is no “revolutionary subject” out there waiting to be discovered by leftist bloggers.
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>It is nonetheless notable that the divergence in mortality between whites with only a highschool diploma and (largely urban) whites with college educations is now greater than the divergence between the average rate for the black population and those same college-educated whites. >This has created a situation in which none of the components of what liberals like to call “privilege” are necessarily visible from the depths of mountain poverty in the Appalachians or the Klamaths. Individuals might be raised by opiate-addicted parents; work ugly, deadly, and short-lived jobs; struggle to make childcare payments or tend to drug-addicted and imprisoned relatives. If they seek government assistance, there will be little or none, aside from the military. They may not even be able to apply for financial aid for school if their family’s black-market livelihoods mean that their parents file no taxes. If they somehow do finally make it to any urban area for work, they may be more likely to be hired for entry-level positions or less likely to be shot in the street, but the cultural and educational gap will neutralize most other advantages. >They will also quickly contrast their own plight with that of the city’s other poor residents, noting what appear to be a wealth of resources provided via government aid programs and non-profits for everyone but them. In some places, they will see overseas immigrants—particularly resettled refugees—being given free housing and job training. In others, they will see nonprofits offering free classes in financial planning, or help for students applying for financial aid, but all targeted toward “people of color”—one of those strange liberal shibboleths that seems almost designed to trick the ignorant into saying “colored people” in order to give better-off urbanites a proper target for class hatred thinly disguised as self-righteous scorn. >It’s important to remember that the perception of such inequities certainly exceeds their reality, but they are not entirely imaginary. A rural migrant from McDowell County, West Virginia, is essentially an internal refugee, fleeing a majority white county that has a premature death rate (861.2 per 100,000 population) exceeded only by that of the notoriously poor Pine Ridge reservation. But there are not only no substantial welfare programs targeting these parts of the country, there are also no NGOs or resettlement agencies waiting to aid these refugees when they escape such devastation.
Ok, the quotes are great, but I kinda don't like em now as reading them feels like a spoiler for the book proper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50vRNNGqlp4 this video reminds me of some of the stuff the author talks about "clustering", the opposite of what he would call the hinterlands
>>777452 >In others, they will see nonprofits offering free classes in financial planning, or help for students applying for financial aid I can almost guarantee that shit is offered to them as well but they, not completely without merit, write it off as adult daycare bullshit.
>>777595 probably
>>777452 >It is nonetheless notable that the divergence in mortality between whites with only a highschool diploma and (largely urban) whites with college educations is now greater than the divergence between the average rate for the black population and those same college-educated whites. The more I read of this book the more I like it. If you hope that the left that is so concerned with fighting female, lgbt and poc (nominally secondary to class) oppression will at some point extend this to the uneducated you can wait forever.
>>777684 Their economies will remain fucked but it's not like the libs don't make an effort to get welfare initiatives extended to blood red rural areas, there's always some hopeless one in my state running on getting healthcare and infrastructure to rural america and they lose by 30 points every time. Maybe that's part of the plan though.
>>776399 >Somehow this argument got twisted in order to paint him with the 'accelerationist' brush, but if he's an accelerationist on that basis then so are Marx and Stalin. I mean, "The Fragment on Machines" from the Grundrisse was literally the first essay collected into Urbanomic's accelerationist reader back in the day. It's a tired argument that predates all of the neo-nazis who've been anticipating a kind of 21st Century Helter Skelter. Predictably, news outlets latched onto the latter over the former. This "pop" accelerationism is very different from what it actually is (or was), and has done nothing but hinder its theoretical development from an explicitly marxist viewpoint. I still think there's something to be said on the subject, but I'm not alone in saying that calling it "accelerationism" was a huge mistake.
Hinterlands is based, but the handwaving of race is a little cringe.
>>770112 >a more self-sufficient modern economy, with enough industry to sustain the home country >their foreign policy of developing Africa These two seem at odds. I don't see how indebting Africa for resources makes you "self-sufficient" and not an economic-imperialist like the west is to asia.
>>770112 >their foreign policy of developing Africa You mean colonizing Africa
>>778828 One thing I will agree with Dengoids on is that China's activities in Africa do not constitute imperialism yet.
>>779363 Of course it’s arguable. For the most part I agree with what Vietanon says in that screenshot actually. I think what China is doing in Africa can be compared to the Marshall Plan or the initial mutually beneficial trade relations that many European powers established with various peoples before actually colonizing them. However this can really only be speculation, an educated guess based on the known relationship between capitalism and imperialism. We look back on the Marshall Plan and can only see it as a tool of imperialism thanks to its broader context, and how it fit into America’s global strategy which already in 1945 included brutal exploitation of much of the world. China by comparison is an emerging power, and has yet to engage in that kind of exploitation. Until such exploitation begins to appear (or fails to appear) it will be impossible to say whether or not China’s investments in Africa are the opening stages of imperialist expansion or genuinely fair bilateral trade deals. In other words these investments could well be a component of an emerging Chinese imperialism, but we can’t say for certain until China starts *really* behaving like an imperialist power.
>>777173 Bumping my reply to Jehu anon. I am kind of interested in your analysis, but at least for now it sounds kinda stupid for the reasons I point in my post. Maybe I am missing something, so correct me if I'm wrong.
>>777405 it's really something else, but it's not surprising since he has a background in literature
can I get a tl;dr? is the argument of this book that basically the rural poor areas will be the site of some afghanistan/chechnya type insurgency against the industrial capital or?
>>761003 Verbatim Washington/London propaganda. Zero mention of the fact that Zimbabwe under Mugabe (and still today under Mnangagwa) was under crippling economic sanctions by the West (US's Democracy and Economic Recovery Act and sanctions by other EU and Western countries).
review of the book by Benjamin Crais
enjoyed this a lot anyone got reccs for other books in this same vein?
>>781441 Yeah pretty much
>>689643 >fracking, a technology that was known about but considered too expensive for decades. it's still too expensive; the American fracking industry will always remain a debt-driven affair.
>>789234 bumping my own question. anyone got other books like this to recommend?
I'm slightly more than half in the book and one thing kind of junped out. When talking about the lesser cities, the author mentions how the debt economy created by the for-profit health and education is the only thing that keeps many of these cities alive, which evebtually fails when the bubble of debt bursts. However, not much other detail as to how this works is given, at least for now. Could anyone who is more familiar with US economy explain how this works exactly?
>>793764 Meh it's more of a question of how expensive oil gets. >More expensive oil <Natural gas all of the sudden is cheaper by comparison.
>>830370 Bumping question
>>789234 >>822814 Some of what Chuang publishes covers similar issues from the Chinese perspective http://chuangcn.org/2017/08/class-combat/ This article for example has some overlap with the stuff described in the first chapter of Hinterland
I enjoyed the first couple chapters - need to finish it. I believe it's not something we are talking about enough. The nu-Nazis and rightoids of all flavours are more extremist, better trained, and better equipped than what we see in the city. some of these groups have enough armaments and people to hypothetically take over strings of towns in their wake. the pacific northwest has a shit ton of these types as well. the rural areas will inevitably become a battleground if the US administration decides to go full junta.
>>833922 The thing is these militias are over equiped with either imported arms or from very especific shops meaning they will not survive a war of attrition
>>834464 precisely. If yo more or less know all the commercial channels through which they acquire these arms, you can cripple them. the problem is dealing with the massive stockpiles they already have.
>>834464 >>834500 Well they might use weapons the have to get more weapons and supplies, and then try to repeat this over and over. Each cycle trying to arm more people. that's not that easy to stop with attrition
>>834568 But america is no longer industrialised enough to support such war, at least not with these toys they have around. About two APCs and twenty guys with good aim and cheap guns could win easily against them, if the strategies are sound.
>>834600 Yeah but then you still have the fundamental problem of violent counterinsurgency, which is that doing counterinsurgency creates more insurgents. The only strategy that genuinely does disarm a hostile population is investments that enrich these communities, something a hypothetical Biden admin or military junta simply cannot abide.
>>834605 So only socialism can save America
>>834609 Literally yes, all the other social movements without socialism have failed, there really is no other choice
A new afterward has been added to the French edition; it should get published online in English later this week. https://twitter.com/illwilleditions/status/1303006785297620999
I finally finished reading Hinterland a few days ago, and I can confidently say it's one of the most important Marxist writings in at least a decade. It packs so much information and analysis into its 175 pages that I have a hard time summarizing it. Beyond the theory and analysis, it's a beautifully written book packed with lines that absolutely blew me away emotionally. I grew up in the rural Rust Belt, and I can personally relate to and understand a lot of what the author writes about. I think it should be required reading for all American Marxists, and leftists in general. I've shared the PDF posted in this thread with a bunch of people so far, including Caleb Maupin and the CPUSA party leader in my chapter. I don't know if Caleb has read it so far, but my party leader has and she loves it. I just now sent the PDF to the CPUSA Twitter account, and I'm going to try and find a way to make sure the national party leaders read it too. I'm so glad /leftypol/ made me aware of this wonderful book as it has given me a clear sense of the material situation here in the US, and I plan on writing a comprehensive review of it ASAP. I'm going to do everything in my power to make people aware of this book and get it circulating in the CPUSA and other American communist parties, and I suggest everyone here does that too.
>>859882 Does the CPUSA site or newspaper have a book review section? You should try to get it published there.
>>859882 based cpusa anon. I was just saying a few days ago how this book needs to blow up in the mainstream left.
>>859887 I've messaged the party about it, I'll find out soon if they would publish it on the party website. I've also sent the PDF to PSL, hopefully, it starts circulating around that party too. >>859921 I completely agree, Hinterland is exactly what the American left needs right now. That's why I sent it to Caleb Maupin, whatever problems he might have, he has a pretty big following and he could make a lot of people aware of it. Are there any other people I should send it too?
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Reposting the PDF, just in case the original comment gets deleted if this thread gets too big. I link people to the PDF posted here because it's easy, does anyone know a place I can upload it for easy sharing?
>>859882 Send it to Dust James if you can, he is a rural communist trucker who has a Youtube channel discussing socialism and antiimperialism weekly and could easily be interested in that.
Finishing reading Arguments for socialism by Cockshott rn and thinking between reading this or Socialism or Extnction by Ted Reese next. What is your suggestion to which should i read first? Also, does Hinterlands give some glimpses of a new praxis besides analyzing stuff (which is valuable in itself) or doesn't it?
>>860111 I'll send it to him! >>860117 I suggest reading Hinterland, it's brilliant. It does give glimpses at new praxis, a big part of the authors' analysis involves the critical importance of the logistics sector to the continued functioning of capitalism. He's a veteran of OWS and Ferguson, spent a few years in prison doing slave labor and fighting wildfires, and has a comprehensive understanding of how the state represses civil unrest. Most importantly though, the book identifies where the modern proletariat is located and where we should focus our efforts. I seriously can't recommend this book enough, my words don't do it justice.
>>860308 Accidental sage, here's a bump.
>>860308 I'm gonna try to push this book in finbol's and demsoc's discord servers
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>>859882 I got it on libgen, not sure when I can get around to reading it but your recommendation of it is solid, anon.
>But as millions of Beatles-loving, Trump-and-Hillary-voting, homeowning baby boomers die off, their particular anti-communist brain-rot dies with them. The generational divide here really does drive down to the most basic level: around the same time that the u.s. had finally imprisoned the same share of its population as the ussr under the height of the gulag system, I remember a baby boomer explaining to me that the most important difference between capitalism and “communism” was that under capitalism the government can’t just spy on you, kick down your door, and search your property. A few years later, of course, the government was kicking down my door and searching my property, all because I was identified out of a picture-book of “known anarchists,” based on intel gathered by thorough surveillance of my house, local protests and online social networks. >For these people, the urn cannot approach quickly enough.
>>861862 I loved that paragraph, the book is filled with shit like that.
>>859882 I think you should recommend it to the Chapo's. They have a tendency of calling out good stuff that they read on the pod. I'd try shilling it on Matt's (in)sanity stream, but it is at 1AM where I live, so fuck that.
>>862053 That's a great idea, I just sent Matt the PDF and a paragraph about the book. Let's hope he sees it.
>>861862 >around the same time that the u.s. had finally imprisoned the same share of its population as the ussr under the height of the gulag system Ehhhh... also you are not getting communism just from boomers dying.
>>862053 I have also been shilling it, I feel like it touches on a lot of things he talks about. They should get Neel on the show for sure, more people need to read it. I just finished it myself today and with all that's going on it's even more relevant.
>>862053 do it. the chapo crowd alone would eat it up and definitely spread it by word of mouth.
>>684302 You can find Hinterland, and millions of other books for FREE using this resource, and donate $5 if you can spare it to help them out. https://z-lib.org/
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>>863605 He also regularly uses words such as "is" and "potato" too.
>>863608 Which means he has read Deleuze and Guattari too, naturally.
>>863608 Is he a dreaded Hibernian? I have lost all respect for the mick.
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Finished reading the book and the ending left me somewhat disappointed. Neel went where I thought he was going, citing Joshua Clover's works on riots and communization. Neel rightly disparages Occupy as a shitshow, but seems to think the same occupation/protest tactics can still work if they're just turned against major logistical and industrial sites. His defense of 'ultras' within street protests sounds a lot like Blanquism or Bakunin's conspiratorial anarchist sects. The conclusion within the last two sections basically just says "well, maybe all these protests will mix things up or get better if we just wait another 10-20 years." I remain unconvinced by ultralefts who assert there is a "communist horizon" to the current sorry state of organized labor and the proletariat. If we are indeed regressing to the disorganized riot actions of the early 1800s, while under conditions of economic stagnation and mass labor surpluses, that's NOT a good thing. Because all those early actions failed, 1848 failed, the Commune failed, and on those failures was built the far more successful institutions of the Socialist and Communist Parties of the Second International. It seems to me that the task should be trying to prefigure the conditions for a strong organized labor movement, not just going with the flow of anarchist protest-riots and hoping they lead to something better. Either that, or admit that communism is currently impossible. David Blacker's book on neoliberalism in education asserts as much, and his fatalism about the possibility of change is refreshing compared to the bed-hedging of Hinterland or Endnotes.
>>869828 I think the main issue here is terrorism, in the eyes of the public it is a bad thing regardless of context, making political low mass action (which is what we are) impossible
>>862053 Matt actually talked a little about the shifts in the makeup of suburbs and cities on today's stream https://www.twitch.tv/videos/743093284 Around 33:00
>>760986 You are correct. Dismiss triggered whitoids.
We should shill it to Brace and Liz from TrueAnon.
>>685771 Thank you based PDF anon.
>>874391 Drive the Anglos into the sea England is Cymru clay
>>874391 Read hinterlands
>>875830 I should get a twitter and reddit account just to spam this
>>861862 >"The urn cannot approach quickly enough" Lmao I need to read this shit.
>>690229 I have to admit, the way the author writes keeps my attention. There's something more organic about it.
>>863610 The Body Without Organs is a potato.
>>690229 t. autist This book isn't for in-depth theoryjerking, if you want that read Endnotes, it should tickle your 'tism.
Bumping so I can screenshot thread later sorry
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>>686272 >>688788 >>688814 >>688821 >>688841 >>688872 >>689038 all me, you're welcome nerds, I got you into reading this book
>>690441 They joined as soon as it was possible. An eight-million man army, the world's largest navy, and a world-class air force isn't just something that could've been produced and shipped across two oceans in a year or two. Certainly not from a nation with a small army that was still scarred by the depression. >they did not want to risk loosing too much territory and population to the socialist system How the hell do you think this supports your point?
>>690315 Capital was definitely a motivation, that guy is not saying Hitler was anti-capitalist you retard. But the Nazi party was increasingly less influenced by business interests as the years went on. By 1944 the war-economy had pretty effectively cemented nazi control over industry.
>>895670 really good book
>>690229 This isn't even left com though. No one left com likes this shit.
>>895633 fuck why won't firefox let me screenshot the full page
>>950898 >fuck why won't firefox let me screenshot the full page Use the single file addon for Firefox, it makes a html file of a entire thread (without file attachments) that will work offline. https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/single-file/
bump because the French edition releases today!
>>950898 Search "Snipping tool" in your computer files, Windows comes with a screenshot program.
Can any eurofags confirm or deny if what this book says about rural burgerland is also true about rural Europe?
>>976578 no - oh god no. rural people are more conservative than city dwellers as a rule in just about any country, but burgerland is a special kind of dangerous.
>>976589 Not in political convictions but in the internal colonization and depopulation of rural areas.
>radlib ultra bullshit No thanks.
>Once its figureheads were defeated—Milo Yiannopoulos via public outcry and Richard Spencer via repeated punches to the face lmao
>>976924 Lemme guess, you're a Sakaifag?
>>976578 At least in Lithuania, yes, very much so, but with its own characteristics. Aside from the Capital, few cities with a university and ones with infrastructural / tourist / logistical significance, the rest of the country is a wasteland of dying towns and all but dead villages that forms the political base for our current centre right populist ruling party, who's leader coincidently is a land magnate that got all of it by muscling out the farmers with mafia methods in the 90's. Meanwhile the capital is an ever bloating, sprawling mess. Only reason, which the local politologists agree on, why the country isn't rioting is purely due to the outlet that is emigration to the Western EU.
>>977605 Talking of Richard Spencer he endorsed Biden
>>978088 Well, he's right. A vote for Trump is a vote against the US. Spencer is smart enough to see that second term means death to American empire.
>>833487 >We are told by Sontag, echoing Streep, that the roots of physical culture and its correlated aesthetic are easily identifiable: “To an unsophisticated public in Germany, the appeal of Nazi art may have been that it was simple, figurative, emotional not intellectual,” a type of art that offers common people “a relief from the demanding complexities of modernist art.” This is the sum of her explanation for how such a cultural movement rose to prominence, the diagnosis little more than a barely-veiled invective against the stupidity and unrestrained passion of the proletarian horde, incapable of understanding real art. Similarly, the recent essay from Refigural simply casts a broad net of vague associations in the classic thinkpiece fashion, here garnished with a bit of art-school loftiness. But throughout, the argument simply takes the rising prominence of physical culture and its aesthetic correlates as a priori fascist, a thesis “proven” through the simple fact that many on the far right seem to be drawn to guns and muscles and that frat boys also, in fact, like sportswear—big fucking surprise. >What neither work contains, however, is any rigorous approach to history. For Sontag, proletarian brutishness is enough. There is simply no reason for her to dig into the intricate history of German physical culture, rooted in the late 19th century and often deeply tied to early nationalisms and the rise of the worker’s movement. Nor is there any reason for her to trace the transfer of this particular strain of physical culture to the US via the migration of German workers and radicals into the American working class. There is no analysis of the role that physical fitness played in the social clubs of the early worker’s movement. Nor, remarkably, any mention of the ways that physical culture was directly mobilized against the rising Nazi threat, as seen in groups of communist streetfighters, or Imi Lichtenfeld and his gang of Jewish wrestlers and boxers defending their neighborhood in the midst of anti-semitic riots. This is because, for Sontag, the particular far-right adoption of physical culture within Nazism is symmetrical to the role it played within the broader workers’ movement from which it emerged. If communism is simply the “most successful variant” of fascism, there is simply no difference between the Nazi Olympics and a working class gym where people might learn the skills needed to fight strikebreakers at work or racist gangs on the street. >Thus severed from this history, such analyses play a purely ideological role. These critics find themselves in an historical moment when the flesh of the planet is being ground to pulp, when old emancipatory movements have been defeated in a century-long avalanche of blood, and when the poor today are increasingly living a life that seems to be composed of little more than curling into a fetal position while being constantly stomped under the boots of a million different species of police—and faced with this our brilliant Leftist declares “well, actually” your desire for strength is inherently fascist. The only time the liberal ever walks off the sidewalks and into the streets, after all, is to separate the fascist and the anarchist brawling through the labyrinth of stalled traffic, their intellect resounding with the mind-numbingly cultured revelation: “you’re just as bad as they are!” My god Changcn is good.
>>989611 based and materialism pilled
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>>869934 >I think the main issue here is terrorism, in the eyes of the public it is a bad thing regardless of context, making political low mass action (which is what we are) impossible Adventurism can work against warlord-ism(failed state) that is hated by the public.
Bumping this thread just to say that we should try to get Doug (from Zero Books) to be aware of this book and get him to interview Phil Neel in the Zero Books YT channel
>>1083791 just message him
>>1083791 He's @zer0books on Twitter, I think he'd be open to do it if someone were to message him.
The CPUSA hosted a Zoom seminar last night that featured Arun Chaudhary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arun_Chaudhary) and Mike Gravel as speakers, and I was able to post a PDF of Hinterland in the chat. Arun ended up following my Twitter too and I wrote and sent him a review of the book along with the PDF. Arun is pretty damn influential, so I'm hoping he reads it and spreads the word. My shilling of this book is starting to pay off I think, I want this book to be widely known amongst the left so damn badly. Arun's wiki refers to him as "one of the most influential characters in modern politics", he's capable of making the people who ran Bernie's campaigns aware of Hinterland.
>>1090994 >The CPUSA hosted a meeting on corporate spyware last night Yes we get it already, you're glowies.
>>1091019 I've noticed there has been a real uptick in people throwing around these accusations lately, the Feds must be trying to cop-jacket as much as possible with the election chaos. I'm sure you think every communist on social media is a glowy too, schizo.
>>1090994 Just yesterday Phil Neel appeared in a Mediapart transmission, a French leftist media, talking about the election : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQd7KegrXsg&t=3284 I guess he's trying to get the attention of the French public since the French translation just released
>>1091619 I'm happy to see this, the book mostly focuses on the US but a lot of what it says is universally relevant to the post-2008 world. >>1083791 >>1090845 I'll send him a message. I would want to send him contact info for Phil Neel too, does anyone know anything about that?
>>1092151 >I would want to send him contact info for Phil Neel too, does anyone know anything about that? This could be a start https://geography.washington.edu/people/phillip-neel
>>1091619 >I guess he's trying to get the attention He should ask people to reply with "Read Hinterland" to posts on the internet, for cheap guerilla marketing.
>>1095329 someone could buy a domain and redirect it to a download of the book maybe
>>1117208 better ask Phil Neel if he's ok with that
>>860111 Never heard of this guy before. Seems pretty based
>>1091224 There are no real communists online.
>>1118965 So you're saying they're a.. specter?
>>1092151 Did you ever send him a message; did he get back to you?
dialectical bump because of the settler thread


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