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Comrade 05/15/2020 (Fri) 11:17:02 No. 1751
Oh god oh fuck I'm retarded. I've never been tech-savvy, just a pleb consoomer and user, never digging deeper than what was on surface level. But it seems to be, based on what I've been hearing for the past two years, that those who don't have a workable knowledge of it will simply be considered the illiterate of the 21st century. What bare bones basic, and I'm talking like Primary School shit I'm just that dense, level stuff should I learn? So far I've got: - Linux (no fucking clue how I'm going to learn it) - Python (seems accessible and is used in some GAN AIs which I find interesting, so kinda motivating) - Ruby (it's easier Python, is it really worth it then?) - C++ (I've just seen it everywhere I have no idea what it actually is) - Java (always thought it was only for free online games) - The Pragmatic Programmer, and that other one that's blue and has weird symbols and like old medieval manuscript people on the front. - I have a 3D printer, and access to Scratch and some kid's programming software. Honestly, I'm not wanting it to be a career, I just don't want to get fucked by glowies and would like to know that I can at least "write my own name/ABCs" etc.
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>>1751 I also can get a Raspberry-Pi thing too if that helps...
>>1751 >I just don't want to get fucked by glowies Using some Linux distro, especially with popular browsers such as firefox or chrome, and learning programming won't help you with that. Install virtualbox and whonix instead.
>>1751 Well i dont think it would be a big problem if you dont know that stuff but if you have the time and energy its always good to learn things. I think it would be good if you tried different operating systems (mainly different linux distributions) and with that partitioning making bootable usb sticks etc I think doing stuff with Batch is easy and you can make some fun stuff with it. When you did some basics stuff with that you could like into C++ or Java I like Java more but it depends on what you want to do. I think having a Raspberry could be good for trying different stuff mainly with operating systems. When we talk about glowies it would be good to look into VPN Tor encryption and stuff like that but you have to dig abit to find out what they are capable of
>>1751 This is quite excessive, it would take a long time to learn all those languages well, and I mean years. I consider myself reasonable knowledgable on this, and I only know a couple programming languages (more of problem solvey/maths guy). What I would do is I would download ubuntu or something to your raspberry-pi, you'll learn about the interaction between hardware and software here (sorta), and learn how to use the terminal/command-line. I think just learning about how an operating system is structured and to do everything through the command line already puts you miles ahead of the average person in terms of computer 'literacy'. Whenever you want to do anything on your computer search "how to do x in the command line linux" and familiarise yourself with it. https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overview this looks decent but I haven't done it so I can't be sure. Learn python first, just do the course here https://www.learnpython.org then try apply what you learn to the set of problems here https://www.practicepython.org This should give you a nice start. If you become good at python yeah there is lots of possibilities to look at machine learning stuff, but it requires a lot of maths and knowledge to actually make your own GANs and shit, but with a good level of python you can apply other people's models to your own data sets. The most useful way to learn this stuff though is to have some sort of a goal like "I really want to 3D print dragon dildos" so you learn how to model something on a computer "oh I can use Blender to make 3D models", then "oh I can use python in Blender, better learn that" etc etc
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>>1755 Interesting, is that like a "black box" or "brick" thing where no one but yourself can see in? >>1756 Thanks, I'll try :) >>1757 Very cool, I'll follow those up this weekend and see if I can make a head start. I guess I don't want to git gud, just at least have a passing familiarity.
>>1761 >Interesting, is that like a "black box" or "brick" thing where no one but yourself can see in? Virtual machine is a computer inside a computer. Vms have everything required in order to run programs, but of course it is slower than on a real computer. It doesn't really matter unless you want to play games on virtual machines(which is possible only on linux and complicated) or your pc is shit. Virtual machines can't access data on your computer by default, though file and clipboard transfer is possible if you enable it. Whonix provides two vms, one which is a gateway, it has a direct internet connection and acts as a relay for the workstation. Workstation doesn't have it's own internet connection and passes all connections through the gateway, which sends all the data through tor. In a setup like this glowies won't get your real ip as easily as if you were using just the tor browser.
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>>1751 >that other one that's blue and has weird symbols and like old medieval manuscript people on the front. This lol
>>1762 Thanks for the explanation.
It's a meme, don't fall for it.
SICP is basically the most abstract, generalized and compherensive study of what a computer program most fundamentally is. Lisp is a tool so powerful it defies all practical purpose. If you just want to learn to actually program, don't read it yet. It's like offering Phenomenology of Spirit to someone who's looking for a good self-help book. Save it for later as a deeper look into what you already know
>Linux (no fucking clue how I'm going to learn it) there's nothing really to learn, just try out some normie distro like linux mint, xubuntu or zorin os core on virtualbox, learn the few annoying common terminal commands (sudo apt-get update, sudo apt-get install [package-name], sudo apt-get purge [package-name]) >Python focus on that, and maybe learn some html and css too for fun https://www.w3schools.com/python/default.asp https://www.w3schools.com/html/default.asp https://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp >Ruby dead, completely replaced by python and node.js >C++ for specialized purposes, you need a very good reason to learn it, don't waste your time >Java oracle killed it, they acquired java from sun microsystems, turned it into proprietary crap and now they're suing google in the supreme court for not having a license by oracle, don't waste your time >The Pragmatic Programmer has a shit ton of filler, they've never heard the phrase "less is more" >SICP MIT no longer wastes their time teaching this in undergrad, it is just an insane cult of nostalgists who lament over it. yes it's a classic book that anyone who would label themselves a "computer scientist" should get around to reading, but certainly not the first book any beginning programmer should read
>>1766 I just watched one of the lectures (from 1980's) and I was just like, whoa. I oddly found it more on my "wave" than most technical ways of explaining. But yeah, there's a lot of presupposed knowledge so I should come back to it later. >>1771 I appreciate your candor. Html seems like a good thing to have up my sleeve (would be nice to make a website for comrades), never heard of css.
>>1773 Css describes how html elements look. All the colors, fonts and such.
>>1766 >>1773 It's an introductory text for first year computer science students and has been used as such for decades, all around the world. The only thing it presupposes is high school mathematics. And enough disciple to get into MIT, I guess.
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>>1766 Is this copypasta? It is so full of bullshit it has to be a joke.
>>1761 >kazarinka based
>>1772 >there's nothing really to learn learn bash and other shell-scripting.
>>1778 he said he doesn't want a career, bash is not general-purpose like python
I don't think you need to know how to program to be considered digitally literate. You certainly don't need to learn four different programming languages and read a book that is basically career advice for software engineers. If I were in your place, I would study these topics in some detail, in some cases even Wikipedia would be more than enough: - computer architecture: cpu, memory, disks, peripheries, data representation, etc., differences between desktop computers, laptops, servers, mobile, embedded - "systems" software: operating systems (processes, scheduling, files, drivers, libraries, windowing systems, etc.), compilers, interpreters, shells, etc. - networking: packet switching, OSI model, IPv4 and IPv6, TCP/UDP, some example protocols (e.g., ICMP, ARP, DNS), look up what an RFC is and skim some that seems interesting; figure out how you can look at your network traffic and read about the protocols that look interesting - WWW: take a look at HTTP, maybe even read the RFC, look at HTTP requests using Firefox's inspector, look up the things you don't understand; learn some basic HTML and CSS, like you were planning to pimp your myspace profile - encryption: look into HTTPS, certificates; public key cryptography, PGP, GPG, start using it right now; E2EE for XMPP/Matrix, etc. Skip the mathematics unless you are interested in it - programming: just pick a language that looks nice, it doesn't matter which as long as you stick with it for a while I am sure in a hour I will have a dozen new suggestions, but in the end you will have to decide for yourself what you spend time studying and what you care about. And of course, read >>>/edu/338. You are not retarded or a pleb for not studying computers before.
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>>1779 That could be the very reason to learn it. Bash is extremely useful and quick to use in most situations a normal user or administrator faces, it's use can be immediately integrated into everyday life. Meanwhile Python would appear as a separate field designated for professional programmers.
>>1751 >- Linux (no fucking clue how I'm going to learn it) Just install a distro. You can start with an easy one like Ubuntu, Mint, Manjaro, or Fedora. It's easy. >- Python (seems accessible and is used in some GAN AIs which I find interesting, so kinda motivating) A perfectly fine place to start with programming. >- Ruby (it's easier Python, is it really worth it then?) Ruby is not "easier," it is just different from Python. They are both equally capable and advanced languages. Ruby may be a bit more elegant. >- C++ (I've just seen it everywhere I have no idea what it actually is) This or C is necessary to understand memory allocation and management, which is necessary knowledge for writing really excellent Python programs. Don't stress too much about which language you start with. All of the ones you listed are essentially the same kind of procedural code. Just google for whatever kind of resource you learn best with-- textbooks, videos, whatever. Then jump in.
>>1780 That's one hell of a response. Wow. Thank you, I'll have a lot of reading and (perhaps more importantly) doing to do! >>1793 Hm, I see. I think you're right, just jumping in is probably best :)
>>1793 >This or C is necessary to understand memory allocation and management, which is necessary knowledge for writing really excellent Python programs. This sounds like cargo cult bullshit.
>>1797 What are you trying to say? If you haven't manually managed memory, your programs will have issues even with garbage collection. The "everything is a reference" languages have a lot of pitfalls you will not understand unless you know how memory management works.
>>1751 Install a Linux distro, start with Mint or Ubuntu, then try something like Arch just for an experiment. You will learn some OS concepts and Bash basics along the way. Then move on to Python and other languages. You're right though, being able to have control over what your computer does and write your own scripts can make a real difference these days.
>>1755 Usage of Tor is greatly improved if you have some sense of how it works and why. Otherwise you sabotage yourself, like most Tor users. Learning Linux and programming will certainly help with that.
>>1851 >>1852 good tips
>>1848 I am trying to say that this is just the usual "hurr real men use C" bullshit that is spouted by imbeciles in every /dpt/ because they think using malloc and free somehow makes them better than other programmers. There is absolutely no reason to learn C or C++ if your goal is to write "really excellent" Python programs. The way memory is managed are wildly different and there's little if any transfer between the two. You are better off studying the cost model of Python instead of masturbating to how manual your memory management is despite the malloc implementation doing most of the heavy lifting for you.
>>1852 >Otherwise you sabotage yourself, like most Tor users How?
>>1848 pass-by-reference is not the same thing as garbage-collected
>>1891 off the top of my head: -doing shit that makes your browser uniquely identifiable, like making your window a weird size -installing browser extensions that fuck with the page and thus fingerprint your browser to the website admins -putting confidential information in tor. tor exit nodes can MITM you and you should not trust stuff on tor to be secure -doing shit that ties your activity together, like having a conversation in one browser tab and then copy-pasting your post onto a different website in another browser tab
imo this is the best thread in /tech/ rn for total begginers to this stuff. Keep it up.
>>2813 OP from that thread. >>1751 Grab Linux and definitely NOT windoo but for security reasons avoid the most common distros just in case. It should be fine but the Glowies have probably unique attacks for distros like Ubuntu. Python is a great starting language and pretty easy to do things like Web scraping, networking etc with it which is quite fun. Recently wrote a brute forcer in python (Not recommended but quite easy). C++ is fantastic. People will shit on it for difficulty but you can basically do anything with it. Also probably one of the fastest general purpose aside from C itself. Java is pretty great too with a lot of ease-of-access features compared to C++.
>>1751 unironically, watch Muke's video on digital security. I fucking hate the guy but everything he says there is 100% spot on. Other than that if you actually, unironically want to dive deep technically just go look at a local university's computer science/information technology/cybersecurity etc program. Most universities have their curriculum publically available which should let you know what topics to look over. Most universities have their syllabus for each course available too, and each syllabus usually has a textbook on it or multiple. then just go download those textbooks from libgen as pdfs and read them. 90% of college is just professors reading from slides that are copied from the book, so if you actually just read through the textbooks starting from the basic/intro ones in order you will essentially be equivalent to a CS degree holder except for no money. you can essentially skip any hardware/electrical engineering type courses/elective you find in the curriculum though
>>2814 Thanks, I'll follow those up. >>2815 Cool, I'll look around my area :D
>>2815 >watch Muke's video Who is Muke? Can't find said video.
Also I'm reading about all the shiz going down on plebbit, and the murmurs of a potential clearweb (is that the right term) cleansing. I can't learn this stuff fast enough (matrix, tor nodes, etc.) and I'm worried I'll lose this cosy chan where I've found calm after a long time. Please don't leave without me ;_; I'm trying as much as I can, it just feels like that nightmare where you run but you stay in the same spot as your friends get further away... Please Don't go
>>3009 i suppose we could eventually migrate to a federated network and you wouldn't need technical skill to participate, but just like chapo there's really no going back if this place ever gets nuked. whatever was there that ties a community together gets lost in the ether inevitably.
1) just switch to literally any linux distro You will switch 3 times 'til you finally stick with arch. this is normal. 2) Before you learn 4 different programming languages, just learn bash first. Bash is like the red telephone to your system (not really but just go with it). Learn how to properly use and maintain your system. there are ample resources online, there are some free edx.org courses on linux basics that are quite good. after you can write proper shell scrips start thinking about what programming language you want to learn. Get the basics down and man pages are your friend, use them.
>>3008 >muke this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDsMA466vEw autistic leftcom physics student (and also hard drug user, if you can't tell by looking at him)
>>3008 muke is one of the dumbest motherfuckers on the planet and a tripfagging regular from 8/leftypol/ before he spun off onto YouTube. not invested in this discussion, just coming here to say muke is a retard at all levels and although i havent seen his tech/security videos, i frankly wouldnt even trust that stupid fucker to figure out how to plug in his computer and given his politics, i immediately am suspicious of his capacity to be a competent techie. then again, luke smith and the hated one are apparently alt-right/ancapis and they know tech (even though they take cryptocurrencies way too seriously), so maybe muke is an idiot savant there too.
>>3026 >muke >leftcom he's literally a cosplayer and always has been. he's also been a tankie, an ml, a maoist, a market socialist, a libsoc, and whatever the fuck else under the sun. maybe he finally came to his senses and got into some good theory, but i doubt his intellectual capacities so much that i find it hard to believe he can get leftcom theory. at least he isnt a post-leftie (yet) because i'd had to have his reputation associated with such an already horribly maligned intellectual current
So, thanks to this thread I'm going to try to implement and learn a bunch of it (or try to). Should I get a RasberryPi or a secondhand ThinkPad? >Why don't you just use your current PC/Laptop Look ngl I've set my PC and laptop up for work/browsing and have got them just the way I like them, cosy. I'd honestly rather start with a blank slate rather than fuck around and mess up. Low effort for sure, but if I'm going to have burner stuff, I want it to not have my job related software on it :\ Speaking of, what other hardware could I get that's simple? I think someone posted a splitter or something that looked nifty...
>>3049 Get a secondhand thinkpad as those are far cheaper than Raspberry pis. You can get one for like 20$ or less if you’re lucky, especially the x200 or t60
>>3050 I'll keep my eyes peeled. Thanks :)
>>3049 Most likely you will just fiddle around with it for a week and then put it in the closet to gather dust. There won't be any real commitment unless you use it as your "daily driver".
Reverse-autistic permanoob brainlet fag here. Python sucks as a first language. It wasn't my first and I'm glad it wasn't, though I tried many times early on (mid 90s) to learn programming and got turned off because of poor python docs. I recently came back to it, because lots of the best data tools are in python, and I want to extend some of them to encompass new use-cases. I find its idioms too restrictive, obtuse even. Try import sys import op def wrapper(inputs=argsv[0],arr=argsv[1]) <remove whitespace code> r"\n"r"\t" ''.join(list(filter(wrapper, arr) just to remove white space. Furthermore the 'declarative and modular' meme is "declarative" for opaque codebase: impossible to navigate without using a heavy IDE or a million vim plugins. I like barebones vim and even cat | less or cat | head / tail in a single terminal on ancient hardware. For first reading I'd stick with eloquent JavaScript, go through from start and finish wit arrays and linked-list data structures. Then jump over to SICP (with original lectures) and complement that with a basic knowledge of C structures. Then you'll be good on the programming side. If you want to learn how to use Linux. I'd go for arch. They have thorough and easily searchable documentation that will help you build your system. They don't spoonfeed you but they give you everything you need to create the perfect system for your needs and hardware. Give yourself 2 weeks for this. It's like building your rpg character. Take your time and contemplate well your use case and personal sensibilitirs. I for instance dont care about aesthetics or feature-rich cutting edge bullshit. I type around 150 wpm if there is no bloody track pad, and think with images and notions, so I require something that runs without the slightest hiccup, at the same speed as my commands, no matter the load (of commands per second). I don't use sublime or slack or file manager or any gui interfaces outside Wireshark and the browser. Works great. Learn how to do basic navigation in vim, hjkl is movement $ and 0 beginning of line end of line. W E w e is word over word navigation. V is visual mode. I a o O are insert modes. c DD are basic deletes. Y P is your copy paste. U Ctrl+r your history control. ESC + : + wq is exiting vim with a save. The same with q or q! Is without saving. Learn how to use buffers and windows and escape to shell. These kinds of things will make you very productive. Over time you'll start to merge with these command and control mechanisms, becoming a true cyborg with an exobrain. It's totally worth it. And the cognitive enhancement gives you a rush of power and fulfilment that is better than most drugs. Basics of a setting up and running a system, the fundamentals of programming, and well-fused cerebro-enhancement will give you a solid foundation to start poking around with networks and such. Through play and practical use you'll develop new skills (like learning to use a search engine properly, how to catalog your knowledge and discoveries, and, the hardest and most prized accomplishment: understanding the man pages.
>>3440 > cat | less Strong contender for the most useless use of cat ever.
Yeah I think you'll get bogged down trying to learn all that at once. I think it's better to start with some basic language you are actually interested in/ can see yourself using. Eg if you are more into electronics than computers you could start with arduino or python with raspberry pi, if you were thinking of doing video game or graphics stuff you could try C#/C++/Java, if you want to do webdesign then go for CSS/HTML- even something like Processing (mostly generative art) is a good way to start getting your feet wet without getting hella bored immediately. As long as it's not too derived (ie visual programming or something like Matlab) you can learn a lot of the same fundamental concepts with any language. Python is pretty multifunctional- it's used across a lot of applications for plugins/scripts (if you are into 3D printing it can be used to make cool shit in CAD programs) , game design, data science and machine learning stuff.
>>3440 >>3469 These are pretty complex
With what's happening, time for update?
>>1763 anything but this. Get good at C everything follows from there.
>>5844 Like you would seriously get more out of the god damn dragon compiler book than go down the LISP path.
>>1765 yeah, this, division of labour is still a thing so who cares if you can code or not >>1751 start with a simple language like html and work your way up to low level languages as long term goal, also learn various things like architecture, cryptography, sorting algorithms, networks etc. on your way > - Ruby (it's easier Python, is it really worth it then?) ruby is dying since rails decreased in popularity, python has become a staple over the years (take it with a grain of salt i havent done anything cs related in a decade)


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