[ home / rules / faq ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / siberia / edu / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta / roulette ] [ cytube / wiki / git ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru / zine ]

/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
Name
Options
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)
Join our Matrix Chat <=> IRC: #leftypol on Rizon
[ Return / Go to bottom ]

File: 1682951664459.gif (1002.02 KB, 250x251, downloadfile.gif)

 No.13689

in my country, there is a laborist political movement akin to spanish national syndicalism that appropiated the pro-workers discourse
around the 2000s, they invented the term "popular class" in contrast to the "oligarch class". im not exactly sure of its implications, maybe its a rebranding of the universal "middle class" term, or they (more likely) synthetized an alliance between workers and lumpenproles. what are the implications and consequences of this manufactured discourse?

 No.13690

Sounds like leftist populism that is good imo.

 No.13691

>>13690
romanticising poverty and marrying proles with the people that mug them on the way to work seems retarded and is a time bomb. besides, it implies a paternalistic state policy in which the state opposes "oligarchs" (bourgeoise that dont align with them, because they dont have it against corps that support them) so it can impose a dengist regime and mantain the working class under state capitalism

 No.13692

>>13691
>muh lumpen le bad

L ass sheltered ass take

 No.13693

>>13689
They are grouping everyone who isn't bourgeois and making a revolutionary class. This is good. Mobilization 101

 No.13694

>>13693
Eh lad as a strong working class man I can go toe to toe with lumpens so no muggings but they are irritating especially when they nick what little ya have

 No.13695

>>13692
im not sheltered. im a welder, the son of a teacher and a farmhand, and got mugged at gunpoint by people who never worked in their lives. they subsist by taking workers personal property. how is that any different than the surplus value a burgeoise takes from you?
>>13693
no, they also support the burgeoise, just the ones that have deals with the state. id like to point out that this is a western democracy and whatever power they acquire within the state apparatus is not even slightly close to state socialism. just as an example in the 2020s they legitimized an imf debt a liberal goverment took. theyre bonapartists id say
btw they went full kristallnacht in the 1960s and killed and persecuted their left wing and everyone associated with leftism

 No.13696

>>13692
Nobody likes thieves who steal directly from regular people, regardless of what you want to call them.

 No.13697

>>13695
>>13696
tbf lumpens are in desperate situations.

>no, they also support the burgeoise, just the ones that have deals with the state
Like how?

 No.13698

Peru?

 No.13699

>>13697
>desperate situations
doesnt make them less of a material antagonist
screw that, i know what poverty is like. i know what hunger is like. some people simply enjoy crime. why fuck over other poor people when you could go to wealthier places and take what you need? because punching down is easy
>deals with the state
first of all its important to understand that the current politicians from this school were subordinates and allies of a rabid mercenary government (alla chicago boys) in the 90s which were in cahoots with 70/80s military juntas and set a lot of leftist hunters and torturers free
the most obvious deals are infrastructure and land leasing businesses. lots of ghost, inflated deals made with building and hotel companies
also worth noting are the alliances with unionist bureaucracies which constantly pressure workers into accepting uneven deals with corporate suits, the vast land acquisitions from chinese capitalists and how open they are to negotiations with bourgeois (when they became the opposition party during the previous liberal government, they conceded an important labour laws reform project which increased age of retirement, working day hours, lowered compensations and wages)
>>13698
argentina

 No.13700

>>13695
>>13696
>every lumpen is a violent criminal
the class politics understander has logged in

thats fucked up that you got mugged but crying about the lumpen is for bitchy right wingers. obsessing over le evil criminals is dumb and will never accomplish anything. I like this articles approach where he talks about how if the lumpen aren't won over they will just end being hired muscle but they also have the potential revolutionaries and productive members of society.

https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/periodicals/red-papers/red-papers-2/franklin.htm

 No.13701

>>13695
I hope you die next time you get mugged

 No.13702

>>13700
I specifically went out of my way to not use the term lumpen and even made it explicit.

 No.13703

>>13700
thank you for this. i was just looking for an informed opinion on the subject since im lacking on my reading
>>13701
cant say the same about you because you dont leave your house

 No.13704

File: 1683113326328.jpg (311.79 KB, 1600x1235, Benito-Mussolini.jpg)

>>13689
He's coming back, bros!

 No.13705

>>13700
excellent reading. thanks again, it helped me gain insight i lacked
still, id like to explain that while this alliance and subsequent productivization with the lumpens may be plausible, the national syndicalist party does not operate within a frame of revolutionary theory or praxis. they do not wish for the lumpen to help the working class, nor for they to cease being parasitic
i still have a doubt. culturally, the working class wishes for police enforced or vigilante violence against criminals, and most destitute people are seen as part of this group. on the other side, there is a strong criminal culture summarized in "berretines" or "thieves pride". some street criminals and drug dealers are proud of their class conditions and see working people as petty (gil laburante). how can you resocialize them? how can you help them realize their conditions are part of a contradiction? and how can you make the working class see the same people who commit crimes against them as an ally, even circumstancial?

 No.13706

>>13705
Use state to give home and job. Therapy at first, then gulag if they can't function

 No.13707

>>13705
>how can you resocialize them?
You put them into camps. That's what the Soviets did, that's what the Maoists did, that's what western social democrats did albeit on a much less drastic scale. I'm not talking about death camps here, but detaining and 'reeducating' noncompliant populations is the only answer you're gonna get from the radical left, outside of existing liberal criminal justice practices.

 No.13708

>>13706
>>13707
the text anon shared proposed pre-revolutionary organization between proles and lumpenproles. it makes sense, at least in theory. not only lumpens are direct victims of state oppression and negligence, they are also accustomed to clandestine activities and violence which are useful revolutionary tools

 No.13709

>>13704
Bella ciao

 No.13710

>>13699
Isn’t this just Peronism?

 No.13711

>>13710
yes. thats the exact political movement im talking about
it had a frame in which it operated akin to a revolutionary movement and helped the working class achieve victories (this explains the initial bourgeois discontent with it and the constant suppression from military dictatorships) but bonapartism dug its grave. a fatal flaw it carried over since its conception, because peron never was nor intended to be a revolutionary leader
he left wing of the movement was explicitly trying to install state socialism, but their internal enemies in the peronist movement (including peron himself) fucked them over

 No.13712

>>13708
Sure, the lumpen population can be mobilized during a revolution to fight alongside industrial workers. But what happens after the revolution, when it's time to get back to work and build a new society? The socialist government uses the power of the state to 'reform' those people back into productive workers. i.e. put them into camps.

 No.13713

>>13711
Are FIT based?

 No.13714

>>13713
im inclined to say no. my family, my familys friends and myself had experiences participating with several parties that form that coalition
my appreciation is that the people that form those spaces are well read and involve themselves socially quite a lot. sadly, theyre bleeding heart idealists and hippies. i think it may be the lack of working class people in their ranks
they lack pragmatism and ambition. and i doubt they will ever lay the same cultural roots peronism did
most based people got themselves killed at the last dictatorship. i guess the maoists could count as based yet their pragmatism got out of hand and are now buddy-buddy with the peronist crème

 No.13715

>>13713
btw ask around the hispanic general and the milei thread thats active. my opinion is just that, an opinion

 No.13716

Wow how horrible, a viewpoint more amenable to marxism is gaining traction. Should you organize among them? Or complain on the internet after doing nothing to reach out to your countrymen.

 No.13717

>>13716
peronism hasnt made nor intends to make any progress towards (at least) state socialism, it even smothered it in the crib
and just so you know i help my countrymen by working in soup kitchens in my spare time. im not some fucking sheltered internet nerd

 No.13718

>>13717
Wow sounds like a weakness that is ready to be exploited, its adherents ought to be ripe for radicalization!

 No.13719

>>13714
Huh, then why exactly do they do so well among natives in the north?

 No.13720

>>13719
pure conjecture cuz im not informed about most South American politics but my guess would be the maoist emphasis on the peasantry and countryside may have something to do with it, the naxalites in india are also have strong ties to indigenous groups for example

 No.13721

>>13718
you could be less of a pedantic faggot and speak earnestly and politely. i made this thread specifically to learn, not to assert my knowledge. if you took time to read my other posts, youd know that the argentine lumpemproletariat, captured by the bourgeois state, is encouraged to feel pride towards their condition and it is very hard to help them acquire consciousness
>>13719
i cannot say much about those populations, i live in buenos aires, so i talk from my own experience with urban and suburbia fit militants

 No.13722

>>13721
>you could be less of a pedantic faggot
My point is your options are to right your mast or accept failure and cope. So many leftists choose the latter. Many of them because it is all they hear, a feedback loop of defeatism.
>if you took time to read my other posts, youd know that the argentine lumpemproletariat, captured by the bourgeois state, is encouraged to feel pride towards their condition and it is very hard to help them acquire consciousness
First of all if you think someone is lumpen because they lack class consciousness and not the other way around you are not a marxist. Secondly if you believe that all the state has to do is tell the proletariat that they should be happy about being alienated we have already lost because whoops tsar nicky just forgot to hit the propaganda button and marxism is solved forever.

 No.13723

>>13722
what a dense motherfucker. your high and mighty attitude show that you are a basement dork that doesnt interact with people in real life. for the life of me, i cant imagine such a snob organizing or helping other workers

fuck off. reply to me if youre a retarded methhead that diddles kids and takes it up the ass

 No.13724

>>13723
>Hello I would like help
<Well ABXYZ
>Wow you're gay retarded and a loser
What do you want me to say? That it's okay for you to give up and turn into one of those "amerikkka settlers will never be revolutionary" guys but for a global South country?


Unique IPs: 24
[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / rules / faq ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / siberia / edu / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta / roulette ] [ cytube / wiki / git ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru / zine ]
[ Return / Go to top /