Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 01:23:49 No. 13727
>>13726 The rate of profit already fell to 0 in 1929. We’ve been living in socialism ever since
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 04:19:23 No. 13728
>>13726 The rate of profit prediction is, unfortunately, one of those relics of early Communist theory that didn't work out and has largely been abandoned in more advanced works.
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 04:32:47 No. 13729
>>13728 This is pretty much a lie and based on a misunderstanding of what the tendency for the rate of profit to fall even means. The funny thing is that even modern economists today in the latest books on economy acknowledge the tendency with a multitude of solutions to combat this tendency which they also acknowledge as being problematic in the political sense. You economics knowledge is stuck back in the 1970s.
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 05:04:49 No. 13731
>>13729 The problem with Marx's conception of the tendency of the rate of profit to fall is twofold:
1. It assumes that the labor theory of value is true
2. It takes the guise of a scientific theory, yet no meaningful predictions can be made with it.
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 05:15:15 No. 13733
I'm gonna do it, I'm going to do what all /leftypol/ers fear, the most disgusting reply I can think of.
Here:
>>13731 I disagree, and your opinion is so silly and misinformed, I am going to not respond because it's more likely that you come from bad faith. Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 05:57:55 No. 13734
>>13730 >implying the owners of the capital have incentive for profit to fall at all Waste of ten seconds. You owe me.
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 06:06:21 No. 13735
>>13734 Saying it will fall to zero and decrease in rate of profit after industrialization are two different things as the person said
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 06:07:56 No. 13736
>implying the owners of the capital have incentive for profit to fall at all
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 06:30:01 No. 13737
>>13731 >and has largely been abandoned in more advanced works If by "more advanced" you mean "modern," it hasn't been "largely abandoned" to my knowledge. What recent books specifically abandon it?
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 06:32:58 No. 13738
>>13736 Hence mass downsizing and gutting of entire companies, collapses overnight to merge with larger conglomerates. It's evidence of struggling profitability from the bourgies, so much so that they'll do anything just to eek out just that extra bit of profit. The funny thing is that this crisis is not a "labor" issue as it was in the 70s profitability crisis when labor cost way more. The bourgeoisie are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 06:59:02 No. 13739
Profits have hit record highs. It feels like everyone is engaging in one big price-gouging party. I've seen 20% increases on products over a 6 month period.
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 10:25:08 No. 13741
>>13738 >mass downsizing and gutting of entire companies, collapses overnight to merge with larger conglomerates y Not the case in most sectors and countries. Also its just a temporary trend in the west due to the recession phase they are in
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 13:46:21 No. 13742
>>13739 Theres profit and then theres ways to seem profitable on paper. Alot of those record profits are stock buybacks , tax cuts and subsidies dressed up as "profit"
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 15:20:43 No. 13745
>>13727 >>13728 >>13731 I'm more of a Kaleckian but these arguments are really bad. Castoriadis made a similar blunder when he took war period rate of profit increases and extrapolated them to say capitalism was not in economic crisis. This is false. Capitalism is in a terminal economic crisis.
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 18:31:23 No. 13746
>>13741 Your grasp of economics is basically neoliberal. Even Karl Shaub is ahead of you.
Anonymous 2023-05-06 (Sat) 19:47:35 No. 13747
>>13731 Where's the lie on the second point? What predictions have actually been made based on the falling rate of profit over the past century?
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 00:42:50 No. 13748
>>13747 A "tendency for the rate of profit to fall" is less a prediction than an observation of past behavior, hence "tendency." If I tend to do something, I will likely do it in the future, but whether I do or don't in a given time frame will be contingent on other factors. "Tendency" suggests I will at some point, but whether I do or don't in some particular instance is separate from whether the observation describes the long term correctly.
While Marx does predict the tendency also exists in the long term, he describes countervailing tendencies that imply the rate of profit's long term tendency to fall will not necessarily be true in particular time frames. This sort of short term/long term distinction isn't peculiar to Marxism, or to political economy and economics. The second law of thermodynamics is a statistical tendency that can be violated, even if it's highly unlikely to happen in most cases.
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 01:26:33 No. 13751
>>13745 > Capitalism is in a terminal economic crisis. Capitalism has been in “terminal economic crisis” for the past hundred years. When can we say that we’re in an objectively new mode of production?
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 01:27:46 No. 13752
>>13739 profit and rate of profit are two different things.
I sell a $10 item and get $3 profit on it but then later I only get $2 profit on it per $10 sold. The rate of profit has fallen. But I go from selling a million products to 2 million. Rate of profit fell by 1/3 but total profits are up by 1/3.
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 01:37:52 No. 13753
>>13746 I mean you faggots have been saying capitalism will collapse any second now for hundreds of years during every recession but those very capitalist countries are now the richest on the planet and even the formerly socialist ones like China, Vietnam have adopted capitalism much more than burgers. Curious
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 01:52:14 No. 13755
>>13754
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 02:02:27 No. 13756
>>13753 >I mean you faggots have been saying feudalism will collapse any second now for hundreds of years during every revolt/crisis but those very feudalistic countries are now the strongest on the planet and even the formerly republican ones like the territories of old rome have adopted feudalism or got cucked by the ottomans. curious eh
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 02:43:04 No. 13758
>>13754
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 03:34:19 No. 13759
>>13757 >>electoral democracy in politics have proven to be a inefficient lets implement it in workplace… what could go wrong If that's the measure of "inefficiency," this is more you projecting contemporary political elections onto what workplace democracy would mean. Capitalism already has voters making decisions about workplaces in the vast majority of large corporations anyway. This is what having "voting rights" means for shareholders. It's silly to say "workplace democracy won't work because voting is inefficient" when not only is voting already done, but that fact has apparently escaped your notice.
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 03:43:41 No. 13761
>>13759 Welfare states are a result of electoral democracy, giving workers the voting rights will eventually degenerate companies into welfare units. Thats should not be the aim of a company
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 03:51:28 No. 13762
>>13760
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 04:02:04 No. 13763
>>13761 >Welfare states are a result of electoral democracy, giving workers the voting rights will eventually degenerate companies into welfare units Yes, corporations will provide money and other benefits for the overall welfare of those who work there like healthcare, dental care, etc. In fact, this may surprise you, but many corporations already do offer some or all of these benefits to some extent.
Labor-managed firms also already exist; the most well-known is the workers cooperative Mondragon. Even within a neoclassical framework, labor-managed firms are entirely viable.
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 04:03:13 No. 13764
>>13739 Yet investment in the means of production has also hit record lows. The USA has lost tonnage outputs across the board for heavy industry like steel as American capitalists simply hasn't invested in industry since the fall of the Soviet Union. This is why even the US Military industrial Complex can't complex even with modern Russia with mass production of arms due industry starving for reinvestment.
All those profits are short sighted as come at the cost of US industry falling father and farther behind its competitors that are investing in production.
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 04:17:33 No. 13765
>>13763 >corporations will provide money and other benefits for the overall welfare of those who work there like healthcare, dental care Yea but they reached that point due to workers not having vooting powers and their predecessors working their ass out to make company revenue. After you reach a certain point of prosperity its easy to provide these amenities and focus more on employ welfare.
Yea but its still under capitalism with markets and are a minority
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 04:47:12 No. 13766
>>13765 >Yea but its still under capitalism with markets and are a minority You said:
>>electoral democracy in politics have proven to be a inefficient lets implement it in workplace… what could go wrong >giving workers the voting rights will eventually degenerate companies into welfare units Neither of which is true empirically. If your contention is that people won't work under socialism, that isn't true either in the case of "actually existing socialism" or in the case of the more socialistic kibbutzim in Israel.
Also, if you're the one advocating for monarchy, monarchy makes even less sense from the point of view of efficiency. If a monarch is mentally stable, intelligent, and healthy, the state will at the very least tend to function as well as any other, all else being equal, but these qualities are hardly guaranteed historically. Primogeniture is always a matter of genetic chance, and, if the successor is nominated from within the royal family or within the nobility, this doesn't guarantee continuous and stable administration, even if the monarch in question is successful, intelligent, and so forth (e.g. Marcus Aurelius and Commodus).
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 06:05:47 No. 13767
>>13764 I see USSR graph like this, compared to China today, and realize just how much USSR degraded after Stalin. Just another country, analogous in results to capitalists
Anonymous 2023-05-07 (Sun) 06:07:29 No. 13768
>>13752 And then comes in China and makes it so instead of 2 million products you can only sell 1 million or even less.
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