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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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File: 1684228587389.png (130.51 KB, 479x359, leftistmedia.png)

 No.15736

If class conflict is a reality, why aren't politics divided along class lines already, even if immature in consciousness, what Lenin called "trade union consciousness". Instead politics is divided between different coalitions involving different sectors and industries of capitalists and workers, divided by education, race, religious, ethnicity, geography, and seemingly everything BUT actual class.

And I know people blame muh liberal idpol but this is lazy IMO. This is really a schizo tier conspiracy, the alex-jones-ism of the left. Liberals aren't capable of socially engineering class conflict out of capitalism's existence through mass media or anything else. Its the path of least resistance to just make coalitions out of existing groups of people. Liberal idpol is a consequence and coping political strategy over the lack of class politics, not the cause of it.

Doesn't the fact that the proletariat hasn't emerged as a united political constituency disprove the basic thesis of Marxism? There's no clear evidence that the proletariat is the revolutionary subject, or that a revolutionary subject even exists under capitalism?

 No.15737

>>15736
How is the existence of false consciousness 'schizo tier'? We can blatantly see how the bourg incites culture wars ala trans issues at the moment.

 No.15738

They are, but politics is a very broad subject. Like propaganda, politics is total.
There is not going to be a global unity of thought and purpose.
>evidence
Is just another name for "interesting observation"

 No.15739

>>15737
you don't think the idea of false consciousness is a bit too easy?

>Friedrich Engels used the term "false consciousness" in an 1893 letter to Franz Mehring to address the scenario where a subordinate class willfully embodies the ideology of the ruling class. Engels dubs this consciousness "false" because the class is asserting itself towards goals that do not benefit it. In the letter, Engels uses the term false consciousness interchangeably with the term ideology.


The term false consciousness was just a throwaway line in one letter Engels wrote and now it's the go-to explanation.

 No.15740

>>15739
Fetishism is a pretty prominent part of Marx's works

 No.15741

>why aren't politics divided along class lines
they are

 No.15742

>>15736
because false consciousness. QTDDTOT. next.

 No.15744


 No.15745

>>15739
Well call it something different if you want, it doesn't change anything. It's an obviously true explanation, working people don't get anything from the mainstream electoral parties but they vote for them anyway because they want to prevent someone worse or because of irrelevant cultural issues.

 No.15747

>>15746
Also true, but that's because the electoral system is rigged in favour of the super rich.

 No.15748

>>15746
The bourgeoisie have duped the people by using their mass amounts of wealth and propaganda to make certain facts of life to be "the correct thing to do".
Things like "you can't drive drunk" have become common sense to the people, purely because the bourgeoisie said so.
They've, one way or another, made you believe that what is best for them is also best for you.

Is arguing whether the legal limit to drive is .08 abv or .09 really within the best interest of the proletariat, when the correct answer is to have no limit in the first place?

 No.15749

Lies

 No.15750

>>15748
anon, i'm not sure legalising driving drunk is the best use of the proletariats energy

 No.15751

>>15750
It's the drunk crashers that are the problem, not the drunk drivers

 No.15752

>>15736
The class struggle is ongoing but it's often mediated through identity, religion, etc. and it just doesn't appear like it did in the 30s and 60s because it's not waving the same banners. You couldn't explain the Iranian revolution without analysis of class (the clerics having their power base in the lower-middle class "bazaar" of artists and small shopkeepers; workers there too and in other sectors such as the oil industry) even though they often expressed their frustration through religion.

There are also weird ideologies that people express today that don't seem like they have anything to do with class, except ~ultimately~ and in the final analysis it's actually about downwardly-mobile screwup failson PMCdom down there in the root of the matter. It's obvious when you think about it. The class struggle is like the engine under the hood but most people, including most of the left, are focused on the make/model/color of the car.

 No.15753

>>15751
TBF, losing your citizenship over drunk driving seems pretty unjust… well maybe if you take the piss and keep doing it

 No.15754

>>15736
It depends on the country my american friend.

 No.15755

Conservatives are forced into idpol issues because upper class members are too few to win elections. Liberal idpol is reaction to conservative idpol.

 No.15756

File: 1684234129476-1.jpg (327.42 KB, 1800x1022, C2_1_updated.jpg)

>While it is obvious how race played a major role in the Civil Rights Movement, that is not to say it wasn’t also a fight for class and gender. First off the Civil Rights Movement was almost just as big of a class struggle as it was a race issue. This is because during that same time there was a massive exodus out of cities from middle and upper class citizens, mostly white. This led to many jobs relocating outside the city to follow this migration. This greatly impacted the inner cities economies, which saw limited job opportunity and very few options. This led to an economically driven segregation in which the inner cities were mainly lower income African Americans while the suburbs were populated by upper class whites. What many people fail to learn is that the Civil Rights Movement was not just a fight against racism and prejudice, it was a fight for better labor standards, more jobs and more economic opportunities and freedoms. The South never really changed its class structure from the civil war onward, even though slavery was abolished black citizens still worked the worst jobs, in terrible conditions for awful pay. Even though blacks played a central role to the economy in the south they saw little of the benefits, and were denied access to the social benefits of that economy. The success of the Civil Rights Movement led to increased educational opportunities, this led to a massive increase in the number of black college students which therefore led to an increase in blacks in professional jobs.

>This was a major step that massive increased the size of the black middle class population, before the movement a vast majority of the black population were lower class, with little to no option for upwards mobility. One of the main goals was for every citizen to be able to achieve the ‘American Dream’, and to eliminate all barriers to achieve that goal. African Americans wanted to participate in white American culture, there were African Americans who simply wanted to live at the same standards as white citizens with the same income and education. They had additional barriers to overcome, it was not simply a money issue, they had to overcome the institutionalized racism in place within many facets of society, they were denied schooling, housing, work opportunities and all of this denied them access to the much touted upward progression of the American dream. The push for equal rights from black citizens goes hand in hand with their push for economic opportunities and power. There has been a widening gap between black citizens and white citizens in terms of economic power. It is this gap that many believe helped propel the massive amounts of activism witnessed during the civil rights movement. The disenfranchised African Americans realized that the so called American Dream was out of their reach if the system stayed the same.


>The counter movement against the Civil Rights Movement was just as much class warfare as it was about race. The majority of the members of the counter movement called White Citizens Council were upper class well educated whites. This council used intimidation and various aspects of class warfare. The White Citizens Council attempted to combat the movement by impacting various avenues of revenue for businesses that were a threat to the white supremacy in the south. There were many very harsh actions taken by the council, they withheld credit, products, they canceled already in place insurances and mortgages, they fired black workers and evicted them from their houses.

https://genderraceclassblog.wordpress.com/popular-culture/summary-of-civil-rights-movement-and-class/

 No.15757

>>15736
Because organizing solely along class lines is only a priority for communists. The revolutionary overthrow of capitalism has been a fringe minority position for many years now, usually upheld by a fraction of the most wretched and downwardly mobile of the working class.

You see class collaboration and idpol as wrong because they're distractions from the workers' "true mission" to overthrow the system. The workers don't see it that way. They just want a better deal, higher wages, cheaper products, etc. and so they see no harm in voting for landlords and business owners, or advocating for social justice absent any clear class content.

 No.15758

>If class conflict is a reality, why aren't politics divided along class lines already
because class conflict doesn’t require explicit and self-conscious political organization to exist.
> schizo tier conspiracy
never trust anyone that uses conspiracy as a slur, particularly when they are trying to gaslight you into thinking you’re equivalent to alex jones for thinking that a global empire explicitly organized to contain and kill communism with entire government agencies dedicated to covert psychological operations might inculcate class-collaborationist views in its citizenry.

 No.15759

>Liberals aren't capable of socially engineering class conflict out of capitalism's existence through mass media or anything else.
No, but modern mass media is absolutely capable of misdirecting people's class anger towards any number of scapegoats, or breaking up groups of workers on the basis of race, gender, or other spooks. If anybody questions the effectiveness of false consciousness I'll just point them to the existence of the internalized inferiority complex that many racialized/colonized people experienced (and often still experience). This was so effective that virtually every anti-racist and anti-colonial movement had as one of its primary goals getting the colonized to stop thinking of themselves as inferior to the colonizer. If you can convince people that they themselves are lesser than their neighbour because of skin colour, you can definitely convince people that immigrants, Jews, or whatever else are the cause of their problems.

 No.15760

>>15736
>If class conflict is a reality, why aren't politics divided along class lines already
They are divided along class lines. There's imperialist propaganda and then there's national development propaganda of the periphery

 No.15761

Communist parties of the past 50 years in Europe and USA suck fucking dick

inb4 a eurocentric view of history

 No.15762

>>15759
Sabocat's chauvinism strikes again!

 No.15763

>>15762
What's chauvinistic about what I said?

 No.15764

>>15748
Stop drunk driving and telling yourself it's bourgeois to operate a motor vehicle sober

 No.15765

It is, you are just confusing spectacle with politics.

 No.15766

>>15755
Honestly this should be obvious to everyone but for some reason people keep acting as though it's the liberals who establish the idpol paradigm rather than reacting to it.

 No.15767

>>15763
Ignore the troll

 No.15768

File: 1684256486475.jpg (2.88 KB, 111x107, wtf_sunglasses.jpg)

>>15748
>Is arguing whether the legal limit to drive is .08 abv or .09 really within the best interest of the proletariat, when the correct answer is to have no limit in the first place?

 No.15769

This is now a drunk driving thread. Drunk driving laws are counter-revolutionary and must be abolished. First on the to do list of every local org.

 No.15770

>>15739
>bit too easy

Vibes are not serious analysis

 No.15771

File: 1684258723122.png (291.47 KB, 485x436, 1623078444647.png)

>>15770
neither is turning one throwaway line from Engels into the whole theory of why after thousands of lines of analysis of capitalism, the explanation for why the proletariat is just "lul their just brainwashed bruh"

 No.15772

perception is reality

 No.15773

>>15772
i hate how overused this trope is, but isn't this 'idealism' ??

 No.15774

>>15772
No there is a reality (Atman) but it is unknowable (to the unenlightened) so it presents itself as a Rorschach test (to the unenlightened)

 No.15775

>>15772
>lemme just close my eyes on the freeway and put in my earphones, hahaha can't see or hear any carsAAACCK

 No.15776

>>15771
No, you're basically just making it simpler than it is because the vibe of the argument seems off.

You don't have to even use marxist concepts of false concisouness specifically to understand that proles are heavily propagandized by propaganda filters within the media.

 No.15777

File: 1684260123370.png (195.75 KB, 850x603, ClipboardImage.png)

>bourgeois propaganda isn't an answer because the one specific term I sometimes see marxists use for it isn't frequently used by marx or engels

Anon

You understand that analyses of propaganda in capitalist societies do not begin and end with the term "false concsciousness," correct?

Please tell me you aren't actually dismissing a documented phenomenon with "well this specific term wasn't used often therefore it's just a soundbite"? Because come the fuck on that's a piss-poor argument

 No.15778

>>15776
>>15777
Any analysis of why people believe what they believe should start with their material and economic self interest because if consciousness can contradict that through brainwashing then you are admitting that the economic base doesn't really matter and superstructure determines superstructure so the libs fighting the culture war are actually right.

Third worldism at least attempts an explanation for why first world proles don't want socialism due to being a labor aristocracy.

 No.15779

>>15778
>so the libs fighting the culture war are actually right.
Why so? The proletariat needs their own culture to combat and change the superstructure of the present, not sink to the levels of bourgeois cultural hegemony.

Read Gramsci.

 No.15780

>>15778
>if consciousness can contradict that through brainwashing then you are admitting that the economic base doesn't really matter and superstructure determines superstructure so the libs fighting the culture war are actually right
Not unless you adhere to a rigid, vulgar materialism. Marx himself was always flexible with this, hence his statement that men make history, but not as they choose. The superstructure can obscure the relations of the economic base, and this can suppress the class consciousness of various groups. However this only works up to a point, and more specifically it works up to the point where the experiences of the people they are trying to convince daily contradict the narrative that they are being fed. If you're a middle income worker, it's still objectively true that your interests are irreconcilably opposed to your employer, but if you live comfortably then it's much easier to believe that this is not the case. Generally speaking, the less a narrative is contradicted by a person's actual experiences (that is, their material conditions), the more likely they are to accept it. In other words false consciousness is very real, but it can only work within the confines of certain material conditions.
>Third worldism at least attempts an explanation for why first world proles don't want socialism due to being a labor aristocracy.
Third worldists are correct insofar as the better conditions of first world workers makes it much easier to accept bourgeois ideology. Where their wrong is thinking that this means that the interests of these workers is actually aligned with the ruling class.

 No.15781

>>15778
Yeah, your argument doesn't follow at all

>you are admitting that the economic base doesn't really matter and superstructure determines superstructure so the libs fighting the culture war are actually right.

How do you think power within the superstructure is capable of consolidating and reproducing itself in the first place? It's not like you get legal rights and material wealth purely from culture war shit.

>Any analysis of why people believe what they believe should start with their material and economic self interest because if consciousness can contradict that through brainwashing

At no point do Marxists ever hold that individual consciousness and belief is the sole locus of social causality, so that's not exactly a "gotcha."

 No.15782

A revolutionary party does not exist in most swathes of the world.

 No.15783

Most trade unionists support liberal or left-ish parties, for example in the US Democratic Party candidates always get union endorsements which they're attacked over by the Republicans
It's not their fault they don't get a lot of good options in electoral politics

 No.15784

File: 1684280164638.png (220.78 KB, 377x461, smuggie.png)

>>15780
>Not unless you adhere to a rigid, vulgar materialism. Marx himself was always flexible with this, hence his statement that men make history, but not as they choose. The superstructure can obscure the relations of the economic base, and this can suppress the class consciousness of various groups. However this only works up to a point, and more specifically it works up to the point where the experiences of the people they are trying to convince daily contradict the narrative that they are being fed. If you're a middle income worker, it's still objectively true that your interests are irreconcilably opposed to your employer, but if you live comfortably then it's much easier to believe that this is not the case. Generally speaking, the less a narrative is contradicted by a person's actual experiences (that is, their material conditions), the more likely they are to accept it. In other words false consciousness is very real, but it can only work within the confines of certain material conditions.

yes this is correct but i also feel it misses on the conditions of work in addition to just pay and compensation. A white collar professional compared with an oil rig worker in dangerous conditions similar six figure levels of pay but very different work experience. A white collar worker has to have initiative and creativity and it's impossible to quantitatively meter their work to the same extent or to regiment their job to the same level as it would make their work impossible or cut down on their creativity. So white collar workers have more power to clock in at certain times, take lunch breaks, not be micromanaged, etc. And this leads to more of a preference for at least pseudo-egalitarian relations between managers/owners and employees of this class.

The technocratic impulse of professionals is also based on their daily experience of work. Professional class relies on a high level of knowledge and skill to do things and solve problems for their employers. Their orientation is to better understand phenomenon. The bourgeoise class relies on owning things and controlling people, such as employees and customers. Thus their orientation is towards domination and control.

 No.15785

>>15781
>At no point do Marxists ever hold that individual consciousness and belief is the sole locus of social causality, so that's not exactly a "gotcha."
thats also not really responding to the arguments either. No one is talking about individuals but rather categories of people based on things that aren't class in the original marxist sense. That's not "individual"

 No.15786

What kind of faggot shit is this thinking class politics is not part of politics?! Even angoloid land has labor party.

 No.15787

>>15784
>yes this is correct but i also feel it misses on the conditions of work in addition to just pay and compensation
For sure, it's about the totality of a person's material conditions. It's incredibly easy to defer to sources of established authority when you aren't yourself going through anything that contradicts these narratives.

 No.15788

File: 1684285536214.png (783.11 KB, 1000x1500, gnome.png)

>Liberals aren't capable of socially engineering class conflict out of capitalism's existence through mass media or anything else
Mass media is a huge part of how people intake and model society. It's no longer about our neighbourhood, we're supposed to worry about CHINA and COMMUNISTS who want to force you into a life that's even worse than this! This is the best we've got!

Yes, public relations and mass media has made celebrities out of our oppressors. The royals are celebrated as a force of stability. The billionaire CEOs are celebrated as technological heroes, even the ones who don't actually understand the tech (Tim "I'm not glad he's dead" Cook) and who have held technology back. One of my parents will say how a horrible media tycoon is acktually a good guy because he donated a life support machine to a hospital one time after having a heart attack, on the condition he gets first priority with it if he's hospitalized. This is what huge amounts of people will accept as mutual aid.

Don't pretend mass media is trivial, it's the glasses in front of our eyes.

They don't engineer class conflict out of existence. No no no we all know there are problems with la economy. What they can do, and effectively do, is obfuscate the cause and make it appear as if it is isolated, not systematic. Who took your job? Immigrants! Who is decreasing the value of your labour? Immigrants! We don't want to compete with workers who earn $5 a day! Oh, it's not the fault of the boss who has no choice but to take the best offer, no, so we need to stop immigration!
Unless you take the step back to consider that the system is not just "how things are", or "nature", this shitty theory checks out.

 No.15789

>>15786
that labor party is labor based in name only and has been since at least the 1990s anon

 No.15790

File: 1684286780006.mp4 (4.82 MB, 1920x1080, DAMN TOASTER.mp4)


 No.15791

>>15788
>Tim "I'm not glad he's dead" Cook
fuck, meant Steve Jobs.
i need sleep

 No.15792


 No.15793

>>15736
OP this is a very insightful question, it actually cuts to the heart of a certain debate in Marxism.

Class is implicated in every part of our social lives, But class struggle is rarely immediately visible. Partly because class itself doesn't refer primarily to a property individuals have, but a structural facet of society. Coming to class consciousness means seeing class in society, and this takes extra knowledge, experiences, and difficulty. As immediately presented to us, there are no issues about class (until communists choose to make it about class…). In actuality class and class struggle are always there, but they present as e.g. feminist struggles, race struggles, democracy struggles, national or cultural struggles, and so on. Class is always operating under the surface, but it has to be consciously draw out of the picture. So if you're asking this question, I know you must be from a really stupid country 🇺🇸

 No.15794

>>15793
>In actuality class and class struggle are always there, but they present as e.g. feminist struggles, race struggles, democracy struggles, national or cultural struggles, and so on. Class is always operating under the surface, but it has to be consciously draw out of the picture.
Gus Hall termed that the "communist plus."

 No.15795

>>15766
Based way to describe it

 No.15796

>>15736
Let's dissect what you are saying. Point by Point.

1. If Class Conflict Is A Reality, Why Aren't Politics Divided Along Class Lines? Even Lenin's Trade Union Consciousness, Rather Politics Is Divided By Different Coalitions of Different Industries of Capitalists and Workers, and other factors e.g. Race, Religion, Ethnicity, Geography, Education, These are not Class.

POLITICS

Above this is what you are saying. It is false and you are thinking of things the wrong way.

You are only talking of the political sphere and life in capacity to organize, or either electoralism, or some form of grouping.

Politics extends beyond that and it is mixed with all things, it's everywhere simultaneously.

Politics is life, mans development, his origins are political, to just live and participate in society, move in history, Is fundamentally political.

We are political beings.

Thus if we are political beings, and politics extends to all life, to all societal things, so must Class.

Class and politics are inseparable, never independent, mans political formation arises out of Class formation.

Class is about production, our mode of production, its organization, division, the level of technological capability alongside the social relations it creates, meaning class, how people interact with each other, their interests and occupations, the zeitgeist or culture that arises, but most importantly the general relation, the primary antagonism of rulers and commoners, may that be slave and master, peasant and lord, or the worker and owner.

Once you understand the above, you can see how politics is everywhere, Politics is class.

TRADE UNIONS


Trade unions have a long history, they are nuanced across the world.

Sometimes they are collaborative with the ruling class asking for a peice of the pie.

Other times revolutionary and actively calling for communist policy or generally working class interests as a whole.

They are a mixed bag, reactionary or progressive.

sometimes both, sometimes they placate people's and sometimes revolutionize peoples.

It depends on the material conditons
the particular place, social and actual environment.

base: what is the local economy like or employment?

superstructure: like laws, backwards culture? etc…

 No.15797

>>15736
>>15796

SUPERSTRUCTURE, CULTURE, OTHER CATEGORIES

I do not believe there is particular coalitions involving different sectors or industries of Capitalists and Workers. Maybe electorally, voter blocs and so on.

And sure you can divide class among particular lines and I don't disagree with it for analysis.

But you have not stated these properly, no strata has been named, no ethnicities or religions have been named, which sure you can divide for analysis.

But we cannot do so here…as my argument is they are class or relate to it, one way or another, fundamentally so, here is why:

Either they are:

Materially, economically and at the base

or

Culturally, characteristically at the superstructure.

Base and Superstructure: Base generally affects and shapes superstructure, while the superstructure strengthens and maintains the base…

However also vice versa: Superstructure can LIMIT or EXPAND the base, accelerate or stagnate the Base. both interact with each other.

now my argument:

Geography is not some thing that magically divides politics or class. It is a very real, very concrete thing, Geography may point to class formation, it may tell us agricultural Workers are here, industrial workers are there, richer peoples are here and poorer peoples are there.

Education, is superstructure, learning is ultimately a cultural activity although has base elements such as dividing labour, so they mix together in a way, but you can argue it leans one way.

Education doesn't nessecarily divide class or politics or class politics, it can be an indicator possibly of politics and class, of backwardness or progresiveness, the level or place of education can indicate your own class, this may even relate back to Geography.

Education also internally class, political, there are many different theories of school and its relation to production, to class, generally such as propagandizing and indoctrination.

Race and ethnicity: is a character of class or some may argue it takes the size of class structure or even Is a class. I would argue rather it's a tied character, something inseparable.

Race is used to divide class not just internally against each other e.g. working class. Racism is used by the owning classes to justify exploitation.

Race can even relate to class formation, proletarianizing certain people while other ethnicities get more heightened to better positions e.g. English and Irish

It can be used to differentiate ownership of land and property.

But also externally divide class, sometimes certain classes are formed by certain races or ethnicities

e.g. slavs to slaves! or the African people taken as slaves! or Jews and finance/banking! and so on.

Race can specify occupation and labour, used for particular production. It can even be used for currency or monetary regulation, of wages within a class, or reserve armies of labour.

Race and ethnicity are connected to class, specifically production and the labour markets, tied to different modes and means of production.

Race can relate to class struggle or particular class interests.

However the primary relation is colonialism and imperialism to race and ethnicity, to unequal exchange, international relations, finance capital and free trade zones e.g. NAFTA, Zapatistas, Mexican Govt. and communal land.

Religion, although metaphysical and superstructural will still have people, it's rituals, structures and so on all real and material. In fact Religion as superstructure may even affect the base e.g. A religion has a sacred tree, this is valuable as a resource, an foreign extractor Is interested in this, or maybe even particular people within the religion, now the religion prohibits any usage of this sacred tree thus limiting development of the mode of production, building new tech and so on or possibly helping a local environment or whatever, you can see the superstructural affects on the base, the cultural on the economic.

Ultimately OP, you just need to read more, get a more educated marxist perspective, you are nearly there and almost thinking among such lines, you have to think about about world through this framework of Marxism and holistically with it.

MY SOURCES:

I am going off memory, general line of thinking of historical materialim from: Marx, Engels, Immanuel Wallerstein, Samir Amin, G.A. Cohen, Jason W Moore, John Bellamy Foster.

^ A mix of original historical materialism, ecological, dependency or world-systems theorists and one analytical marxist which are usually incorrect but sometimes correct.

But most recently I have learned alot about Marxist theory of development, historical analysis or base and superstructure from Walter Rodney.

Walter Rodney, in the beginning of his book "How Europe Underdeveloped Africa" spends alot of time before the meat of the book, discussing the origins and history of man, the marxist stages of production, development of civilization along class lines and so on however what struck me was his Base and Superstructure, I'm sure it originated elsewhere but how he used it was very enlightening and informs much of the above.

 No.15798


 No.15799

false consciousness is a thing. why do you think so many women support anti-abortion laws even though it directly restricts their own freedom? vapid moralism. why do so many black people support police states? why do liberals clap like seals when they see women piloting drones? arf arf. vapid moralism.

if you want to see how delusional people as a whole really are, just look at how many religious (or crypto-religious) people there are.

 No.15800

>>15799
>false consciousness is a thing. why do you think so many women support anti-abortion laws even though it directly restricts their own freedom?
"Half the world population" isn't a unified group. Women who think abortions are >wrong generally aren't being restricted when they are banned. 70 year old women definitely aren't being restricted when they ruin pregnancy rights.
>why do so many black people support police states?
Being black doesn't inherently make you lower class any more, miss. It's a huge widespread issue, make no mistake and ACAB, but not a universal one. If you're in a place where the police aren't harassing you and you're doing well under capitalism, then it's easy to think that being a black conservative is in your short-term interest.

 No.15801

>>15800
Trying to be "one of the good ones" is a false consciousness phenomenon applying in some cases to any minority group, be it black people, women, lgbt, etc

 No.15802

>>15800
>"Half the world population" isn't a unified group. Women who think abortions are >wrong generally aren't being restricted when they are banned. 70 year old women definitely aren't being restricted when they ruin pregnancy rights.

This is pointless. The fact is that a lot of women who benefit from the option to have an abortion do not support their own freedom. this is false consciousness. My freedom is the most important thing to me because I'm not a vapid moralist. Just because you think it's "wrong" doesn't mean you're not an idiot or a sheep.

>Being black doesn't inherently make you lower class any more, miss.

lol not worth responding to

 No.15803

The problem with false consciousness is that it has no explanatory power. What was the mechanism from breaking free of the 'false consciousness'? How are you sure you still are not under a false consciousness? It is everybody else that is suffering from false consciousness except for the person who is vainly 'self-enlightened'. It's a self centered explanation that is immune to any critique.

 No.15804

>>15803
i thought it was just acting against your class interest

 No.15805

>>15804
That makes no sense. How can a whole class of society willingly go against their own class interests? The point of Marxism is to casually explain the forces that compel classes to act in the aggregate.

 No.15806

>>15805
Because of propaganda and ideological conditioning? Also people have stated that there's more complex explanations for this issue but you just ignore it.

 No.15807

>>15806
That only begs the question, how were you able to break free of the propaganda and ideological conditioning? There has to be a casual mechanism that lets a person be free of their ideological constraints and nobody has given an adequate answer.

 No.15808

>>15807
Nobody said propaganda was perfect, some people have different genetics/life experience/interests/etc that means they react differently to ideology. What's important is to capture enough people to make change impossible by those that aren't affected.

 No.15809

File: 1684389052163.jpeg (149.92 KB, 1080x1192, IMG_1696.jpeg)

>>15748
Hell yeah brother! Finally someone is saying shit that makes some sense!

 No.15810

>>15748
>Things like "you can't drive drunk" have become common sense to the people, purely because the bourgeoisie said so.

 No.15811


 No.15812

File: 1684405396227.jpg (57.07 KB, 640x645, 1c8.jpg)

>>15808
>those that aren't affected

 No.15813

>>15736
Last time I checked nearly all countries in the world have labour parties.

 No.15814

>>15812
I'm aware everyone is affected by propaganda, I was trying to simplify and not get into an argument about everyone being ideological.

 No.15816

>>15813
True but most of them are terrible and don't represent labour at all.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-stamer-conservative-new-labour-b2337901.html

 No.15817

>>15814
>>15814
>I was trying to […] not get into an argument
Then why are you here?

 No.15818

>>15817
I just find OP of this thread tiresome.

 No.15819

>>15803
The bourgeoisie have tricked you into believing that you are "happy" and "well fed" and that capitalism is an acceptable economic system. You must join the Communist Party immediately, where they will purge those thoughts from your consciousness and replace them with Correct Ideas about the necessity of violence and the importance of obeying the Central Committee.

 No.15820

>>15818
Then why are you here?

 No.15821

>>15803
False consciousness is not realizing that you have more in common with workers in other countries than you do with your own ruling class. It is the source of the collective action problem of why do the numerical majority of the international proletariat not simply overcome the numerical minority of the international bourgeoisie. False consciousness comes from chauvinism. Arbitrary attachment to one's nation, race, sexuality, gender, and other intersecting attributes over and above one's class interests leads to a failure of the proletariat to form the broadest possible coalition against capital. There is also fear that prejudices would resume once the bourgeoisie is overthrown.

 No.15822

>>15752
>You couldn't explain the Iranian revolution without analysis of class
odd, most liberals cite the iranian revolution as something that disproved class analysis as it was based on religion

 No.15823

>>15822
This is because the Liberals would have to admit that the original coup that brought the Shah back into power was coup against the Communists as they tried to nationalize the oil making the Brits and the Burgers uppity.

 No.15824

>>15736
>Why isn't politics divided along class lines?
it is. You are just a weird schizo, a booj, or an american for not seeing it.
Sage and fuck all of you for giving 80+ replies when all you had to do was say the premise is wrong.

 No.15825

>>15803
The start of it is questioning the nature of freedom, if you think that the capitalist state can guarantee your freedom, you're bourgeois. It's really that simple, I agree race and identity detracts from this basic point. Freedom of mass society is the beginning of dialectics.

 No.15826

>>15821
You have to concede though, that these narratives have overtaken the discussions of class. The bourgeois media has made false consciousness vogue by offering a false narrative. Marxists can only intervene through their small civil societal institutions , this is a huge problem we must face straight on.

 No.15827

File: 1684670304029.jpeg (17.62 KB, 300x300, FewFM-jWAAAfHIA.jpeg)

>For most of the twentieth century, us political parties represented different coalitions of capitalists, who appealed to working-class voters on the basis that they would promote economic development, expand job opportunities and generate revenues to invest in public goods. This was the ‘material basis of consent’ that determined party success at the polls: a local version of the politics that shaped most capitalist democracies during the long post-war boom.

>The us political scene has long displayed a profoundly paradoxical aspect: while ubiquitously structured by class, it is marked by an almost complete absence of ‘class politics’. The parties, at their apexes, minister to different fractions of capital, but at their bases are oriented to different fractions of workers. Thus, neither the Republican nor the Democratic Party is, or has ever been, a ‘working-class party’; it is correct to interpret these parties as parties of capital. Yet despite this fundamental orientation, they must both seek to appeal to the material interests of those who ‘own only their own labour power’, since this sector makes up the vast majority of the American population. Any party that competes in electoral politics must to some extent respond to working-class interests. Despite the talk of identity politics and ‘post-material values’, us politics has a clear material mass base. But it is not a class politics, because naturally neither Democrats nor Republicans seek to mobilize the many workers who vote for them against capital; nor do they attempt to exert effective political control over capital, especially in the era of ‘political capitalism’. Thus we have, in our formulation, material-interest politics without working-class politics.

 No.15828

>>15736
Simple answer. The dominant ideology is the ideology of the ruling class. And they would prefer that people be divided about race and gender and sexuality and other issues of secondary or tertiary importance so that workers are coming for each other's heads rather than their's.


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