/edu/ - Education

this post has been noticed by the ISPB (Institute for Scientifically Powerfull Bait)

what makes good bait?

>provocative
>controversial
>takes advantage of existing disagreements in a community
>seems sincere
>passionate
>feigned ignorance/anger
>almost correct, but just slightly off in a frustrating and technical way that takes too much time to explain

this video touches on a lot of what OP is talking about, especially 3:37-14:00

🍩✎ ⓢ𝕆 Ť𝓡𝔲ⓔ ＢέŜᵗ𝕪 ♞♬

>>16220
fix it

>hot take: Kautsky's theory of "ultra imperialism" was ultimately correct, but 100 years ahead of its time.
Not really a hot take Lenin conceded it could ultimately be correct his problem with it was it was irrelevant to the immediate situation

So when are we going to get Zizek was ahead of his Time Thread? Come on folks I know you got it in you to write about Zizek and his ideologies into a massive ChatGPT style bait post.

Kautsky was right about alot of things, but his opinion of pacifism in ww1 was not good. I've read Kautsky's criticisms of the USSR and they make sense in context, I don't think his criticisms were from a malicious place.

Tl;dr
it has to get worse before it gets better
for westoids lol
All their crying stems from this fact

>NATO is ultra imperialism
Completely idiotic. Firstly, NATO is not the entirety of all imperialist powers by a long shot. Secondly, even of you looked at NATO as such, it has constant inter imperialist conflicts. Brexit was a result of the consolidation and antagonism of the EU against the USA, in Ukraine the EU core has fundamentally different goals than the USA and is fighting against them in the background. The USA blew up the EU pipeline for fuck sake. The EU has fundamentally different interests in the middle east region than the USA, preffering a stable region with which they can trade, Iran par example, while the USA desires cheap oil exports and absolute domination. Thirdly, even if you looked at all the imperialists, including other Anglosphere countries, Turkey and Briccs countries, they constantly have open conflict.
The idiotic idea of ultra imperialism that imperialists can peacefully and sustainably divide the world between them was false then and is false now. The fundamental nature of capitalism, that it seeks new places to expand to, at the cost of competing capital, prevents ultra imperialism from existing.

>Neo colonies, unlike old colonies, are being kept underdeveloped
Old colonies were also kept mostly underdeveloped. They exclusively exported primary resources. Only where colonists settlers were send were the colonies developed. On the contrary, even neo colonies today receive more capital exports than they did back then.

>China, unlike the other imperialist powers, exports capital
Every imperialist power exports capital. The destruction of native industries to root out their competitive nature and free up cheap labour and space for your own capital is not in opposition to exporting capital, it is two sides of the same coin. It is just that china never had to destroy foreign capital because the west already has through old colonialism and pax America. It is always imperative for capital to destroy its competition abroad even if it cannot immediately expand to it, that is why Africa was made to be and kept underdeveloped, and why it's only recent that it has begun to be industrialised now that the EU has been rebuild, the Soviet Union was looted and china was industrialised. China is not meaningfully different.

>Ultra-imperialism constantly resets the clock and arrests development,
No. That is just regular imperialism. On the contrary, if you actually had ultra imperialism, ie peacefully division of the globe between imperialists, then capital could keep expanding into their influence spheres. It is precisely because we do not have ultra imperialism, but regular ass imperialism, that the border regions constantly get destroyed in wars between imperialist powers. Honduras is not destroyed by ultra imperialism, it is destroyed by American imperialism. Venezuela exists because of support by other imperialist powers such as China Iran and Russia, who keep it alive for their own benefit. Ukraine is not bring destroyed by NATO to keep it underdeveloped, it is being destroyed by conflict between EU USA Vs Russia because of its gas fields. Syria is the same.

Ultra imperialism was a idiotic cope to support imperialist bourgoies governments then and it is now.

>>16216
> Today we have an ultra-imperialist coalition called NATO that will coup, sanction, embargo, invade, wage proxy wars, and otherwise destabilize any government, even bourgeois governments, that do not align with its economic hegemonic interests.
thats not kautsky's ultra-imeprialism

> It instead arrests the development of peripheral countries, so that they can remain neo-colonies for as long as possible.
thats lenins imperialism

kautsky's ultra-imperialism was a theory of post-imperialism that said that wars under capitalism were not inevitable because rational capitalists would cooperate to form a cartel and work together to ensure peace and free markets

It doesn't matter if Kautsky or Lenin were right holy shit
If you need to cling onto 100 year old analysis of society without trying to understand the current state of the political economy you are a petite-bourgeois red life-stylist who's trying to be a bigger catholic than the pope because you have ego issues and don't want to risk your comfy 1st world life for the revolution.

>>16229
In this case it is meaningfully important to understand the nature of conflicts, because if you do not, you get groups like exist today who openly support or even materially aid the Ukrainian or Russian state, you get people who support the Filipino regime over the Maoists guerillas, etc.

>>16225
He has his moments like pointedly laying flowers on a memorial for the jeju massacre when visiting worst Korea and his plaintive admission that dissidents like him were naive fools who thought they could have the liberal democracy and still keep the socialism

Ultimately he's a petit bourgeois bookseller though who needs to advertise his books after an exile to the opinion section of RT he's learnt to hew closely to the liberal consensus to keep his guardian columns etc

>>16224
>Kautsky's criticisms of the USSR
Tldr?

>>16230
>some retards supporting this over that actually leads to qualitative material change
holy shit retard stop dealing with ideas and get organizing. jimbo from Wisconsin isn't aiding nor stopping the Philippine revolution when he shitposts on twitter and neither are you promoting socialism when you go tit for tat with the ziggas and dengists
no one cares about your critical support and no one cares about your geopolitical analysis detached from marxism
read, organize and develop theory and praxis. stop clinging onto the ghosts from the past

I feel like I'm going nuts 🐿️🐿️🐿️ here

>>16216
Imperialism is the weakest of Lenins theories and Kautsky going ultra retard about imperialism doesnt fix this problem.

>>16234
Belt and road looks a lot like the theory nerds in the CPC read Kautsky's essay and went wough

>>16235
would you expand on that?

>>16233
>holy shit retard stop dealing with ideas and get organizing.
I am. Part of the people we work with send guns to the ukrainian army. Another group litterally sends guns to the filipines and has had members of their group die for rojava.

>>16236
I could but I'm tired and my explanation would probably end up more wordy than the essay itself
https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1914/09/ultra-imp.htm
Just read the OG

>>16237
You could've prevented that radical adventurism, but you didn't.

>>16237
>people we work with send guns to the ukrainian army
You should kill them and then yourself
fr fr

>>16216
>This ultra-imperialism, rather than exporting capital and creating its own future competitors in a developmentalist fashion, has learned from the mistakes of past empires, and now limits the amount of capital it exports.

No, porkies never learn. They crave destruction and reconstruction of others' markets, and nations of the world are naturally afraid of this shit

>>16241
There's a late letter by Engels that predicts that communists might be forced to seize power prematurely and do the neccesary things porky won't do

>>16239
>You could've prevented that radical adventurism, but you didn't.
They are a group we work with, and this happened before I even joined the org.

>>16227
>NATO is not the entirety of all imperialist powers by a long shot.
List the imperialist countries not in NATO

>>16229
>If you need to cling onto 100 year old analysis of society
Christians do it with something 2000 years old. 100 is practically yesterday

>>16244
>List the imperialist countries not in NATO
Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Japan, Russia, India, China, South Africa, Switzerland, Austria, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, arguably Iran.

>>16237
>I am. Part of the people we work with send guns to the ukrainian army
Good job helping kill kids in Donbass, banderite

>>16246
>China
lol

>>16247
If you read carefully you would realise that the conversation was
<why care
>because otherwise you end up sending weapons to the ukrainian government
<this doesn't happen
>people we organise with locally litterally do that

Ergo I do not.

>>16248
>Copium
Lets me redirect you to the OP
>Furthermore, China is bourgeois, but they are bourgeois in the traditional sense that they actually export capital and help develop the global south, which is why global south nations are choosing to ally with them over the imperial core. Having a traditional imperialist relationship turns out to be less parasitic than having an ultra-imperialist
If you take issue with me saying China is imperialist then
1. You take issue with the entire premise of this thread in the first place
2. This does not detract from that fact that there are plenty of imperialist countries outside of NATO.
But go ahead, tell me which of the countries I listed, aside from china, are or are not imperialist? Unless you are arguing Australia, Japan, South Korea and Switzerland aren't imperialists?

>>16242
Dengists vindicated

>>16250
>Do the things porky does not want to do
>That being privatising previously national industries and re-establishing markets
Engels was talking about expropriating small farm holdings to establish industrial farming and the like, dumbass. Making your buddies billionaires by giving them state protection and selling out state assets to them is well within what the bourgoiesie wants to do.

>>16251
You sure? I don't remember any of that being in the letter
It was rather short

>>16252
>do the neccesary things porky won't do
Such as privatising previously nationalist industries (which the bourgoiesie always does when it can) or provide state protection to the people who control the government (happens constantly)?

>>16245
no one mentioned Christianity
get a grip

>>16253
We should probably go find the letter before discussing this further yes?

>>16255
Go ahead.

>>16256
I was hoping you'd do it lad or lass
I'm trying to settle down and get to sleep after a hard days work and am old and getting long in the tooth

>>16254
>No one mentioned
I did. I'm steering this conversation now.
>Get a grip
I did. I'm steering this conversation now.

>>16245
is this supposed to be an argument?

>>16259
Do you wanna argue