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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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 No.16648[View All]

Long-hidden ruins of vast network of Maya cities could recast history
<In Guatemala, scientists map well-organized network of 417 cities dating to circa 1000 B.C.

>Beneath 1,350 square miles of dense jungle in northern Guatemala, scientists have discovered 417 cities that date back to circa 1000 B.C. and that are connected by nearly 110 miles of “superhighways” — a network of what researchers called “the first freeway system in the world.”


>Scientist say this extensive road-and-city network, along with sophisticated ceremonial complexes, hydraulic systems and agricultural infrastructure, suggests that the ancient Maya civilization, which stretched through what is now Central America, was far more advanced than previously thought.


>Mapping the area since 2015 using lidar technology — an advanced type of radar that reveals things hidden by dense vegetation and the tree canopy — researchers have found what they say is evidence of a well-organized economic, political and social system operating some two millennia ago.


>The discovery is sparking a rethinking of the accepted idea that the people of the mid- to late-Preclassic Maya civilization (1000 B.C. to A.D. 250) would have been only hunter-gatherers, “roving bands of nomads, planting corn,” says Richard Hansen, the lead author of a study about the finding that was published in January and an affiliate research professor of archaeology at the University of Idaho.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2023/05/20/mayan-civilization-pyramid-discoveries-guatemala/

Graham Hancock - absolved
His detractors - BTFO

You may begin your posts by admitting you were wrong to trust liberal scientists and the ideology-laden "science" that aims to maintain the status quo, rather than advance humanity. I'm not angry, or here to gloat, I am just happy that now we can finally move on and start discussing the implications of "civilisation" being much older than we think. How does this affect Historical Materialism? (my position, as explained extensively and in-depth in the last thread, is that it actually makes HistMat a more robust theory) Graham Hancock is a self-proclaimed socialist

The last effortpost thread, full of academic sources, logic, reasoning, good arguments, was moved to /siberia/ as to kill it. It seems I didn't save it on this computer, but I know for sure I saved it. I will find it, I promise you that.
233 posts and 77 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.16882

>>16881
The idea of the Sphinx being older is not that conversational but most think it was repurposed to be the Sphinx built by Pre-Dynastic Egypt (and wasn't that much older) rather then built by another civilization. There wouldn't be a second Sphinx, as by the repurposed theory what we are seeing is a body built by Pre-Dynastic Egypt and a head from the 4th Dynasty.

 No.16883

File: 1685139571650.png (27.13 KB, 1134x666, ClipboardImage.png)

>>16882
It's worth noting that the sphinx is carved out of bedrock rather than assembled by stacking stone (pic related - ignore the schizo parts, I couldn't find a scholarly diagram showing how the sphinx fits into its enclosure which was carved into the rock). Putting aside the adjacent temple made out of that stone, the sphinx itself (or a lion or whatever if it wasn't originally a sphinx) could have been carved by anybody with the ability to carve limestone (a soft stone). The sphinx being older isn't indicative of a more advanced culture, just history being wrong about something. Non homo sapiens might even be capable of carving the sphinx. It's really not that impressive. The temple made of the quarried stone speaks a lot more to necessary organization and labor capacity. But it also indicates an older date since it was sourced directly from the site unlike most dynastic era construction which was shipped in from elsewhere.

 No.16884

>>16878
>I dare Hancock-anon to reply to this.
OK. It's not a gotcha you think it is.
>>>1479105
>"Uhm, acktualleh sweetie, these megaliths everyone else carbon dated to a different rate were made in the ice ages because muh solstices!"
You cannot carbon date rock. lol You carbon date things which contain carbon, i.e. organic matter. So when they carbon date a megalithic site, they carbon date the organic stuff they find around the site, like wooden or bone tools, preserved burnt wood from a hearth, etc. Like he says here:
>based on 29 C-14 samples, pottery and other "contextual" indicators,
The word in the quotations is the key. Contextual, as in related but separate, like the word context. He puts it in quotes, because when writing that is how indicate you may not agree with the meaning but use it cause someone else does or that is the best word available, and sometimes it can indicate sarcasm, proper name, quote. In this context he is saying that he doesn't agree that they are related to the construction of the site, while obviously belonging to people who occupied the site, possibly long after the megalith was built.
>Trust muh gut feeling over carbon dating!
Oh no… You saw "carbon dating" and immediately thought "haha! science!" without knowing how it actually works. Classic liberal move

Carbon dating measures the decay of Carbon-14. It is called C-14 cause it has 6 protons and 8 neutrons, making it unstable, unlike the two stable forms of carbon, C-12 and C-13, which both have 6 protons, but 6 and 7 neutrons respectively. C-14 is radioactive on account of its instability, and will decay over time, shed the neutrons along with radiation. This decay is regular. An elements half-life (just like the video game) refers to the amount of time it takes for the number of C-14 molecules to be reduced by a half. For C-14 it is around 5.000 years iirc. Since we know the ratio at which C-14 appears in nature compared to C-13 and C-14 (can't remember what it is, something small), we can measure the current ratio of C-14 to C-12 and C-13 in an artifact, and by comparing it to the natural ratio infer irs age. As I said carbon occurs in organic matter. Rocks are not organic, they do not contain carbon, therefore you cannot carbon date them.
> "Uhm, but have we ruled out that people didn't randomly move all of the stones around at the carbon dated times and that it REALLY was made in the ice age???"
You shouldn't be this arrogantly confident when you don't understand the fundamentals of what you're talking about. They carbon date organic matter under' the rocks, and he's saying that the place the rock is, is not necessarily its final resting place. It is not a very good argument, I agree, but you should understand it. I'd have to look into how they choose the material and what they sample to completely dismiss it.

> (Hancock goes on to talk about big LGM meltwater floods and earthquakes)

Well yes, the flood could have shifted material, rocks, brought new material in, etc. Again, would have to look from where they take the samples to make up my mind about it.
>Dude unironically says muh Great LGM Flood shit means that all carbon dating wrong
You're poorly informed. The flood at the end of the last ice age (Younger Dryas) has been confirmed by geological evidence.

While there is still some debate, as more evidence is gathered, it seems to be pointing to a large, single-event flood, that changed the planet's landscape. The event must have been very traumatising for the people that survived, so no wonder it is in myths around the world. If you saw something like that, don't think you'd talk about anything else for the rest of your life.

Here's some links, but there's a bunch of information out there.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1207381109

https://medium.com/@humanoriginproject/did-the-younger-dryas-flood-shape-prehistoric-earth-e1d67d16a88c

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169555X20304426

http://biogeochemistry.org/biblio/Pelejero_et_al_99EPSL.pdf

https://www.washingtonpost.com/energy-environment/2018/07/11/scientists-may-have-solved-huge-riddle-earths-climate-past-it-doesnt-bode-well-future/

http://maajournal.com/Issues/2019/Vol19-1/7_Jaye%2019(1).pdf

>This is a very strong statement of absolute fact. I'm absolutely sure that further study will dispro-I mean PROVE that this was all ice age things re-arranged just so that every single fucking carbon dating of the site makes it LOOK like it doesn't align with the MYTHS that are clearly true.

>doesn't know what carbon dating is
>doesn't know the flood at the end of the Younger Dryas has been corroborated by a lot of evidence
>confidence through the fucking roof

 No.16885

File: 1685141831122-0.jpg (198.64 KB, 1080x718, Z(13)_1.jpg)

File: 1685141831122-1.jpg (211.42 KB, 1080x793, Z(14)_1.jpg)

>>16882
The thing is, the Sphinx shows evidence of erosion, not just horizontal from being flooded, but vertical lines, that you get from rainfall erosion. Which means it had to have been built when Egypt had a tropical climate. That was over 13.000 years ago, before the flood at the end of the Younger Dryas. The cold, glacier melt water flowed into the oceans, changing the temperature suddenly and drastically, disrupting the warm ocean currents (and therefore air currents), changing the climate on a global scale.

Look at the pictures.
>first pic
The red around the chest, showing the cascading lines with dimples at the paths of least resistance, the curved red is next to an obvious ridge made by water flow. Green area is showing vertical lines from rainfall also, there's lots of them.
>2nd pic
The erosion is even more obvious. You can clearly see the vertical lines in the green area.

Cool thing about this is that you can use your own eyes. And don't trust me on erosion, go look up in a geology textbook (libgen.is) what water erosion looks like, rainfall, still water, flowing water, etc.

 No.16886

>>16885
The Sphinx would have had run off from the hill. Also the best guess is that is was originally a statue of the goddess Hathor in her lioness form thus the statue would have had to have been made after Hathor became part of Egypt mythology meaning it couldn't be over older then 4,000 BC and even then she would have been a cow till around 3,000 BC as far as we can tell.

 No.16887

>>16883
>The sphinx being older isn't indicative of a more advanced culture, just history being wrong about something.
It is, if it shows signs of hundreds of years of rainfall. Egypt has been a desert for the last 10-12.000 years. That means the Sphinx is older than what the current ancient history paradigm doesn't allow for. It's such a strong anomaly, that if true, would necessitate a paradigm shift in Egyptology and Archaeology. We'd have to rethink a lot of things.

To all the people who have built a career on the paradigm (and it's lots of people around the world), built a life, it is liberally the end of the world. Imagine if you had to accept that the last 50 years you spent researching, reading, writing was all bullshit, a life built on a lie. That's why most paradigm shifts happen after the "old guard" dies and new, younger people come in, with new ideas. Then they become old and just as unreceptive to new ideas ("it's my turn god dammit!") and the cycle continues.
>Non homo sapiens might even be capable of carving the sphinx. It's really not that impressive.
>Non homo sapiens might even be capable of carving the sphinx
>It's really not that impressive.
lol. Let's see you do it then.

>it also indicates an older date since it was sourced directly from the site unlike most dynastic era construction which was shipped in from elsewhere.

Sure. But we can't date the sphinx, because as you have rightly pointed out
>the sphinx is carved out of bedrock
There is no way to carbon date the rock the sphinx is made out of. So they assume the people who built the stuff around the Sphinx also built the Sphinx, the ONLY evidence being that they are next to each other. Nothing else, no.inscriptions, no record of carving, nothing.

 No.16888

>>16886
>The Sphinx would have had run off from the hill.
Which hill? Where is the water coming from? And how can water flow down the hill, but end up above the head and body. Think about it.
>Also the best guess is that is was originally a statue of the goddess Hathor in her lioness form
Best guess? By whom? Based on what? I show you hard, geological evidence and you're like "Well this guy says…"
>thus the statue would have had to have been made after Hathor became part of Egypt mythology meaning it couldn't be over older then 4,000 BC
How fucking convenient. It's circular reasoning. If you start with the premise that the Sphinx is less than 12.000 years old, that means you limit yourself to that time period and whatever "evidence" you can find. And when you can't, you make a "guess" (read: make it up), it's not like anyone can question you or challenge you if you're the "topmost authority on it". And if they do, you'll just kick them off the site.

 No.16889

File: 1685144877861.jpg (349.35 KB, 1920x1080, sphinx-big-photo.jpg)

>>16888
>Which hill?
There is a grade going from the wall surrounding the Sphinx up to the Pyramids along the road.
> And how can water flow down the hill, but end up above the head and body.
The head is not that weathered. It is a reason why the idea of the head being changed gained traction as it has less weathering.
>Best guess? By whom? Based on what? I show you hard, geological evidence and you're like "Well this guy says…"
From Egyptian mythology, I mean if we are talking per-dynastic Egypt odds are it would be a god/goddess from their pantheon. Hathor has a lioness form and was one of the popular deities dating back to the pre-dynastic period.
>How fucking convenient. It's circular reasoning.
If it is older I would think the religious cults would have either destroyed it or repurposed it. Though evidence points to Egypt having the technology to do anything like that 12,000 years ago. They only started agriculture around 11,000 BC from what we can tell

 No.16890

>>16889
>It is a reason why the idea of the head being changed gained traction as it has less weathering.
It is also missing the nose, it has horizontal lines across it, as if someone tried to destroy the head. But if you look at the face, you can see verical lines, that could have formed by water flowing.
>pic related
See those white, vertical lines, going from top of the head to the bottom? A common example of weathering.
>Stone objects are the most important carriers of cultural information. Most of them have gone through natural and anthropogenic damages over an extended period of time. According to the research results, the influent factors of the weathering can be divided into three categories of physical, chemical, and biological factors [1].

>The chemical and biological factors were considered to be the cause of discoloration on stone objects, such as blackening, whitening, and reding. These coloring changes cause not only esthetical interference, but also induce secondary damage to stone objects [2, 3].


<Red discolorations are not so common on the stone surface compared with the blackening and whitening phenomenon.

https://heritagesciencejournal.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40494-020-00394-z

>From Egyptian mythology

When Hancock uses mythology for clues, he's a nutjob, when Egyptologists do it, it's evidence.

>If it is older I would think the religious cults would have either destroyed it or repurposed it.

It seems like they tried. It's just not easy destroying bedrock/granite. Just like Arabs tried to destroy the pyramids, but after 8 months of work, just made a gash.
>In AD 1196, Al-Aziz Uthman, Saladin's son and the Sultan of Egypt, attempted to demolish the pyramids, starting with that of Menkaure. Workmen recruited to demolish the pyramid stayed at their job for eight months, but found it almost as expensive to destroy as to build. They could only remove one or two stones each day. Some used wedges and levers to move the stones, while others used ropes to pull them down.
>Despite their efforts, workmen were only able to damage the pyramid to the extent of leaving a large vertical gash at its northern face.[10][11]
It is not surprising that they wouldn't have been able to destroy the Sphinx thousands of years ago.

>Though evidence points to Egypt having the technology to do anything like that 12,000 years ago. They only started agriculture around 11,000 BC from what we can tell

Yes, that's why it is so strange and begs a lot of questions. You're starting with the assumption that Egyptians made the Sphinx, and then you arrive at the conclusion that it had to have been made by Egyptians much later than 12.000BCE, because they didn't have tools to do it earlier. But your original premise that Egyptians built the Sphinx is never discussed or proven, we just accept it as true, cause Egyptians lived in Egypt, Sphinx is in Egypt, therefore Egyptians built the Sphinxvcase closed!

Would you accept this level of rigour in any other academic/scientific discipline? Nope. But it's not like you or I could take some instruments and analyse the surface of the face to see if the discoloration really is from rainfall.

 No.16891

File: 1685179954967-1.jpg (244.35 KB, 960x628, 2Q==(8).jpg)

>>16890
forgot pic of the white lines. You can see the white lines on the Sphinx quite clearly. For comparison, you can see how water discolours rock over time.

 No.16892

>>16884
>dares me to respond
>I do
>he runs away
😎

 No.16893

>>16888
I doubt someone tried to destroy the head, more they re carved the head transforming it to Horemarkhet (what the Egypt kingdoms viewed the Sphinx as). This probably was done to give credence to the idea that the pharaoh was a deity that would have been heresy in the pre-dynastic era, where it would work for everyone but the local population but the Egypt kingdom could have just have brutally suppressed the settlement for the con to work with Egypt as a whole.

If the Sphinx in its pervious state was not one the deities at the time it begs the question how come we don't get mention of it? Surly it would have effected Egypt forklore.

 No.16894

>>16893
>If the Sphinx in its pervious state was not one the deities at the time it begs the question how come we don't get mention of it? Surly it would have effected Egypt forklore.
Not if it was discovered by the first Egyptians who arrived there, who didn't not have a (standardised) written language. I am not sure when they started writing on papyrus and stone. I think it was after they settled in the area. I am outside now and don't have time to look it up thoroughly. If you do look it up, post some links, I am curious to know.

 No.16895

>>16894
But what about the period of the two kingdoms (before upper and lower Egypt was unified)? If the Sphinix was recognized as one of their gods then it is understandable why it is hard to find mention of it. It would be hard to phrase context in writing of if they ever were referring to the giant stone idol or the actual deity. If they didn't recognize it then it should be easier to find mention of it in hieroglyphics.

 No.16896

>>16895
>If they didn't recognize it then it should be easier to find mention of it in hieroglyphics.
Not if they had an oral history about the Sphinx before they discovered writing. Because they could have invented a myth/story about the Sphinx and then passed it down orally. You're just interpreting it (without proper evidence) in a way that suits your point.
>hieroglyphics
Thanks for reminding me. Mastabas, which supposedly predated the pyramids, had hieroglyphics carved into or drawn onto the walls. So why wouldn't they do it inside the pyramids at Giza?

Khufu's name, drawn in red paint inside one of the chambers of the Great Pyramid, is the only evidence they have that pyramids were tombs of pharaohs. No mummies, no inscriptions, no hieroglyphics, nothing. Yet they assume they were tombs.

Once you look into it, you find that there is not much evidence for their claims and the mainstream narrative regarding the pyramids. Of course, I know that doesn't mean that the lost-civ is proven to be real, but it does prove the current theory is not significantly corroborated, and we need to do more research and study. We do this with theories to either confirm the current theory or deny it.

If you cared about "science" and the scientific method, you'd support further, independent research into the topic, and not just accept the "authoritative explanation", especially when it rests on such weak evidence. Not asking you to accept the lost-civ theory, just to consider that Egyptologists could be wrong.

Psychiatrists performed lobotomies into the 80s, so even contemporary doctors and scientists can be very wrong. So let's not pretend these egyptologists have it all figured out.

 No.16897

File: 1685243883561.jpg (57.87 KB, 450x446, NarmerPalette.jpg)

>>16896
That would have eventually been written down, Egyptian mythology has its roots predating its writing system. But there is a possible candidate celebrating the conquest of Lower Egypt, now this is obviously propaganda but we do see what could (repeat could) be what the Sphinx looked like as a landmark to passing boats on the river (the head being questionable as again this was clearly made as propaganda against the Delta region), or that could have been the state of construction stage of it at the time. There are many different possibility without going into the theory that it existed before the area was settled by the Maadi.
>Thanks for reminding me. Mastabas, which supposedly predated the pyramids, had hieroglyphics carved into or drawn onto the walls. So why wouldn't they do it inside the pyramids at Giza?
By the time we had modern records of them, looters have been through them longer then the Roman Empire has been dead to us, more then enough time to pick them clean. If they used something else for the engravings that would have been looted a long time ago, and they may have decided to go that route not knowing if the pyramids that big would even be structurally sound thus they the ornaments for the chamber was made more modular. Hell they may have been failures and never used for all we know.

 No.16898

>>16897
>we do see what could (repeat could) be what the Sphinx looked like
Where?
>By the time we had modern records of them, looters have been through them longer then the Roman Empire has been dead to us,
Yet hieroglyphics carved into stone survived everywhere else.
>If they used something else for the engravings that would have been looted a long time ago, and they may have decided to go that route not knowing if the pyramids that big would even be structurally sound thus they the ornaments for the chamber was made more modular.
What? I am talking about engraving stuff onto the walls of the pyramid's chambers. Just like they carved hieroglyphics into the walls of mastabas. And if they could build the pyramids, they'd know that carving hieroglyphics into the walls would not affect the pyramid's structural integrity.

 No.16899

>>16898
Top right under the Falcon (Horus). From the river the Sphinx could have just looked just like a head/neck and body, that also could have been as far as it was constructed at the time with no tail,or paws. Remember the Sphinx was just mined out of a quarry where its shape came from so its original shape could have been simpler.

> Yet hieroglyphics carved into stone survived everywhere else.

Not everywhere and the pyramids are highly visible targets.
>What? I am talking about engraving stuff onto the walls of the pyramid's chambers. Just like they carved hieroglyphics into the walls of mastabas. And if they could build the pyramids, they'd know that carving hieroglyphics into the walls would not affect the pyramid's structural integrity.
That would come later, meaning it is not a worry of carving effecting structural integrity, it would be them not knowing when it would be complete or if and waiting. This wouldn't be cheap and we know they had backup plans for burial with unused tombs.

 No.16900

WOAH!

Anons said that if you had a civilisation that could travel to every continent, you'd see genetic markers of human populations from a different continent, because it'd be impossible to visit and not leave a trace.

Well, as it so happens…

Earliest South American migrants had Indigenous Australian, Melanesian ancestry

>In 2015, scientists discovered something surprising: that some Indigenous peoples in the Brazilian Amazon were distantly—but distinctly—related to native Australians and Melanesians. The genetic signal of Australasian ancestry in so far-flung a population sent researchers scrambling for answers. A new study reveals this genetic signal is more prevalent throughout South America than thought and suggests the people who first carried these genes into the New World got it from an ancestral Siberian population.


>The finding also sheds light on those people's migration routes to South America. "It's a really nice piece of work," says Jennifer Raff, an anthropological geneticist at the University of Kansas, Lawrence, who wasn't involved in the study. It shows that the 2015 finding "wasn't just an artifact. It really is a widespread genetic signal ."


>One unanswered question is why the Y signal hasn't turned up in any North or Central American Indigenous groups. One possibility, Hünemeier suggests, is that the Y signal–bearing migrants simply stuck to the coast and made it to South America without leaving any genetic legacy up north. It's also possible that groups with Y ancestry did live in North and Central America, but died out in the deadly aftermath of European colonization. "The population Y signal is a puzzle," Meltzer says, "but this is an interesting piece to add to it."


Hm… So this civilisation possibly hadn't visited North America. How does one go from Siberia to South America without going through N. or C. America? 🤔🤔

>Next, the researchers used software to test different scenarios that might have led to the current DNA dispersal. The best fit scenario involves some of the very earliest—possibly even the earliest—South American migrants carrying the Y signal with them, the researchers report today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Those migrants likely followed a coastal route, Hünemeier says, then split off into the central plateau and Amazon sometime between 15,000 and 8000 years ago. "[The data] match exactly what you'd predict if that were the case," Raff agrees.


Ah yes, they went by the coast and left no trace. The exact explanation anons said is ridiculous when talking about the lost-civ visiting places. Or you know, they went by ship.

Regardless, the timeline is interesting.
>Anthropologists think bands of hardy hunter-gatherers left Siberia and entered the now-submerged land of Beringia, which then connected Eurasia and Alaska, when sea levels were much lower than today—perhaps about 20,000 years ago. Then, about 15,000 years or so ago, some departed Beringia and fanned out into North and South America. These early migrants made good time: By 14,800 years ago at the latest, radiocarbon dates suggest they were setting up camp in Monte Verde in southern Chile.
>These early migrants made good time
lol, their explanation is that super hunter-gatherers ran from Siberia to S. America. Makes sense, they did it in 6 generations, too. Why would they not stop in C. America, or anywhere else? There's absolutely no reason for them to go farther, and it's not like a band of hunter-gatherers can kill all the animals and use up all the plants in a place in a generation, no matter how "hardy" they are. It also implies that they knew where they were going, and didn't stray anywhere.

I brought a lot of evidence into this thread/topic. Not enough to prove the lost-civ, but definitely enough to cast doubt on the official story and official timeline of human development.

 No.16901

File: 1685286245696-3.jpg (114.25 KB, 652x873, Tuth-grab1.jpg)

File: 1685286245696-4.jpg (66.72 KB, 640x480, Egypt.KV34.01.jpg)

>>16899
>also could have been as far as it was constructed at the time with no tail,or paws.
No, because the rocks behind the Sphinx, the walls of the hole/depression at the bottom of which "rest" the Sphinx's paws, show clear evidence of water erosion. That means it was dug while it was still raining in Egypt or before the flood. You cannot deny laws of physics because they don't fit in with your narrative.

>its original shape could have been simpler.

Good point. Egyptians could have just made some modifications to the statue after finding it, to make it in line with their gods.

>everywhere else.

Not everywhere and the pyramids are highly visible targets.
Not the chambers inside, the hallways, etc. Just like in the mastabas you say they evolved from.
>That would come later, meaning it is not a worry of carving effecting structural integrity, it would be them not knowing when it would be complete or if and waiting.
OK, so why didn't they do it when it was complete? None of the three pyramids at Giza have any hieroglyphics or decoration inside. Which is what the Egyptians did in the tombs in the Valley of Kings and mastabas. Why didn't they do it in literally the greatest tomb and mastaba they have ever built?
>pics related
Wall decorations from tombs from Valley of Kings and mastabas that either predate or are (allegedly) contemporaneous with the construction of Giza pyramids. They found mastabas around the pyramid that have wall decorations and hieroglyphics.
<workers get the decorations and depictions of their life, but not the pharaoh, who is supposedly like a god to them
Not a chance.
>This wouldn't be cheap
Oh give me a break. Supposedly after the Giza pyramids they built a bunch more. They could afford those, but they couldn't afford hieroglyphics or wall decorations, which btw they have literally inside every other building and tomb they built.

>they had backup plans for burial with unused tombs.

Yeah, unused tombs that still had wall decorations and hieroglyphics (despite not even being used as a tomb).

At this point you're just trying to "win" an argument, rather than actually considering what is being said. You're just trying to come up with explanations, and they get wilder as time goes on.
>it was expensive
Yeah, they could afford to build pyramids, but not to carve hieroglyphics in them. Every past king, every professional, merchant, priest, papyrus carrier and ass wiper before, during and since the supposed building of pyramids at Giza got some decorations. The amount of decorations and their type depended on how much they could personally afford, or how much was alloted for their tomb. On the other hand, the pharaoh has all the wealth and resources of Egypt available to him.

 No.16902

>>16901
You don't have to go that far back, there was still significant rainfall in the pre and early dynastic period. Also we see restoration of the Sphinx going from the old kingdom through the Roman Empire, the soft body layer is very weak compared to the head with the body not even lasting on its own from the old kingdom to the time of the Roman Empire. You also have the fact before the quarries uphill, rainwater would have flowed down into the Sphinx.


>Good point. Egyptians could have just made some modifications to the statue after finding it, to make it in line with their gods.

Or the Maadi that settled the area, where we have evidence of them mining the area and making statues in the pre-dynastic period. You don't have to have them running across it from an even older civilization of which there is no evidence of.
>OK, so why didn't they do it when it was complete?
Was it? I mean at the time of the funeral was it? We don't have any evidence of that, these could have been completed by later pharaohs simply out of political reasons, their function then being simply because they couldn't change course, the previous pharaoh set it and motion as a god and they could not afford the contradiction. The living pharaoh could have viewed it as a good enough to avoid backlash, had a ceremony for reburial but the inside was more just a facade to look like the living pharaoh didn't cut corners, ie using paint on smooth walls instead of engravings with paint.

 No.16903

>>16900
>Earliest South American migrants had Indigenous Australian, Melanesian ancestry
forgot link: https://www.science.org/content/article/earliest-south-american-migrants-had-australian-melanesian-ancestry

Let's recap some parts of the official narrative so far:
>super hunter gatherers crossed three continents in six generations, leaving no genetic trace anywhere in N. or C. America
they didn't stop, or veer from their path, just ran
>every chamber, shaft and opening in Egypt that doesn't have a clear purpose is a tomb, grave or a room for preparation of dead people
Egyptians loved dead people
>that's why the largest structures they've ever built, that were not surpassed for millennia to come are just big tombs
they are not decorated like every other tomb though, cause they couldn't afford it lol
>mastabas have rooms because Egyptians built houses for their dead people
civilisation that figured out how to build the pyramids, thought it was a good idea to waste time carving villas for the dead out of bedrock

Don't you find that a bit weird? Every ancient civ and culture took death seriously, had elaborate rituals etc. but Egyptians are the only ones to organise their society around people dying.

>the pyramids are highly visible targets.

THEN IT IS A TERRIBLE PLACE TO PUT A DEAD PHARAOH AND HIS TREASURES IN THEM, ISN'T IT????
<how do we prevent the looting of the pharaoh's tomb?
<we make the tomb into a large structure that is visible from miles away, to attract any band of thieves in the vicinity
Brilliant! And these are the people you say built the pyramids? Real bunch of geniuses.

Unironically, thanks for that. I think you have just absolutely destroyed and BTFO'd the pyramid-tomb hypothesis (inadvertently, of course).

And that is why I like conversation, cause the conclusions and ideas I wish to explore, do not necessarily have to come from me, they can come from the other person

 No.16904

>>16902
You completely ignored the genetic evidence and the decorations in the tombs vs. no decoration in the pyramid. You can't just ignore the facts you don't like. I'll just take it as you conceding the points, because you have nothing to say about them.

>You don't have to go that far back, there was still significant rainfall in the pre and early dynastic period.

TRUE!
But they say the Sphinx was built in 2500.
>While the date of its construction is not known for certain, the general consensus among Egyptologists is that the head of the Great Sphinx bears the likeness of the pharaoh Khafre, dating it to between 2600 and 2500 BC.
So pharaoh Khafre, not goddesa Hathor. You really don't even know what the "offical narrative is" yet you are 100% sure it's right. Weird.

>However, a fringe minority of late 20th century geologists have claimed evidence of water erosion in and around the Sphinx enclosure which would prove that the Sphinx predates Khafre, at around 10,000 to 5000 BC, a claim that is sometimes referred to as the Sphinx water erosion hypothesis but which has little support among Egyptologists and contradicts other evidence.

>a fringe minority
>geologists
>little support among Egyptologists
LOL. Thanks for pre-bunking it, wikipedia. I'm glad they inform us they are a fringe minority, so I know not to take them seriously before I even read what they say. Which means I don't need to read what they say. Wow cool and easy!
>contradicts other evidence
>other evidence
<the general consensus among Egyptologists is that the head of the Great Sphinx bears the likeness of the pharaoh Khafre, dating it to between 2600 and 2500 BC
Someone should inform these crackpot geologists that the real scientists, the egyptologists said the sphinx (despite missing it's nose and a 1/3 of its face before restoration) bears the likeness of a pharaoh, who we've only seen represented in other statues and 2D pictures. And this is conclusive and indisputable evidence that the Sphinx was built when they say it was.

Looks like geologists are gonna have to change how they think about erosion. Clearly, there's no erosion around the sphinx. UNO REVERSE CARD, Egyptologists plunge geology into a crisis.

>Or the Maadi that settled the area

They'd say you're as schizo as I am. They said the Sphinx was built in 2500BC and that's that! End of discussion, no more study, research or investigation.

>an even older civilization of which there is no evidence of.

except of course the pyramids and the sphinx they left behind, right? because the evidence for it being built by Egyptians is purely circumstantial.

>Was it? I mean at the time of the funeral was it?

It is a bit tiring when I have to explain your position to you, as well as argue for my own. Yes, Egyptologists say it was completed in the lifetime of Pharaoh Khufu, 27 years.
<Built in the early 26th century BC during a period of around 27 years,
>these could have been …
And then you go on making wild speculations and fanciful narratives to explain away inconvenient things.

In the next post I will look at the chronology of the pyramids. Cause that's also fucked. At this point I do not give a fuck about the lost-civ actually, now I just want to poke holes in egyptology and expose it for the bullshit it is. You'll see what I'm talking about in the next post.

 No.16905

>>16904
>You completely ignored the genetic evidence and the decorations in the tombs vs. no decoration in the pyramid. You can't just ignore the facts you don't like. I'll just take it as you conceding the points, because you have nothing to say about them.
I just don't see then being missing as compelling evidence they existed prior to Egypt.
>But they say the Sphinx was built in 2500.
It is one thing to say the Sphinx is ore-dynastic it is another to say it pre-dates the tribes that make up Egypt.
>except of course the pyramids and the sphinx they left behind, right? because the evidence for it being built by Egyptians is purely circumstantial.
Why can't the Sphinx be built by the Maadi? The Rapa Nui built the Moi heads without any more advanced tech then the Maadi. And it seems the Sphinx started life as just a bust, the neckline down is much softer stone, unfit for such structures. So either its creators didn't know basic geology required for stone work or never planned it to be anything but a bust on a plateau. Have them dig a trench around it for water run off and so people can look up to it and and the body could have formed from natural erosion. Later you could have the Egypt old kingdom restore it into the Sphinx assuming the plateau was actually a carved body. As for the pyramids, once we get into dynastic Egypt have evidence of stone working even beyond the Maadi, we have records of them talking about their construction (yet not the Sphinx). Why would the lie about creating the pyramids yet admit they didn't build the Sphinx?
>It is a bit tiring when I have to explain your position to you
My position is not of Egyptologist yet I don't jump to the conclusion of older civilization we don't have any evidence even existed.

 No.16906

Radiocarbon dating sounds science-y, it must be an independent and objective way to verify their claims, right? Wrong.

Let's see how dating works in Egyptology.
>pic related
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza
I took a screenshot so you'd see that the paragraph has no citation.

>The reign lengths from Khufu to known points in the earlier past are summated, bolstered with genealogical data, astronomical observations, and other sources. As such, the historical chronology of Egypt is primarily a political chronology, thus independent from other types of archaeological evidence like stratigraphies, material culture, or radiocarbon dating. [from 2nd pic]

That's revealing.
>In the past the Great Pyramid was dated by its attribution to Khufu alone, putting the construction of the Great Pyramid within his reign.
Well, then I am sure they completely disregarded the original date and independently arrived at the same number.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44683433_Radiocarbon-Based_Chronology_for_Dynastic_Egypt
>The historical chronologies for dynastic Egypt are based on reign lengths inferred from written and archaeological evidence.
Read: contextual evidence, artifacts found at the site, that may or may not have been left long after the pyramid was built, no way of knowing.
>These floating chronologies are linked to the absolute calendar by a few ancient astronomical observations, which remain a source of debate.
Uhh…
>We used 211 radiocarbon measurements made on samples from short-lived plants, together with a Bayesian model incorporating historical information on reign lengths, to produce a chronology for dynastic Egypt.
They use the assumption that it was built around 2500 BCE in their calculations. And they have to, because for radiocarbon dating to work they need to know the ratio of C-14 to C-12 and C-13 in nature at around the time they are dating.
>A small offset (19 radiocarbon years older) in radiocarbon levels in the Nile Valley is probably a growing-season effect. Our radiocarbon data indicate that the New Kingdom started between 1570 and 1544 B.C.E., and the reign of Djoser in the Old Kingdom started between 2691 and 2625 B.C.E.; both cases are earlier than some previous historical estimates.
Even though it used the egyptologist assumptions, carbon dating found that it is actually slightly earlier than they think. Obviously not 10.000 years older, but enough to tell us that Egyptologists don't know shit.

Carbon dating gives them conflicting data, but when there is an anomalous reading, they just come up with an ad-hoc explanation. This is a bad way of forming theories, eventually the whole theory rests on self-referential ad-hoc explanations for scientific data. Bad, bad, bad.
>In 1872 Waynman Dixon opened the lower pair of "Air-Shafts", previously closed at both ends, by chiseling holes into the walls of the Queen's Chamber. One of the objects found within was a cedar plank, which came into possession of James Grant, a friend of Dixon. After inheritance it was donated to the Museum of Aberdeen in 1946; however, it had broken into pieces and was filed incorrectly. Lost in the vast museum collection, it was only rediscovered in 2020, when it was radiocarbon dated to 3341–3094 BC. Being over 500 years older than Khufu's chronological age, Abeer Eladany suggests that the wood originated from the center of a long-lived tree or had been recycled for many years prior to being deposited in the pyramid.[40]
Ah yes, it must have been recycled many times/years. Because when you're building a pyramid for the queen, you rely on used parts, instead of getting a new plank.

I like how these pharaohs are gods that can make hundreds of thousands of people build them pyramids, and drag 10 ton blocks 100m high up a slope because man-power (food production and shelters) is no issue: unlimited amounts of resources for pyramids, tools, boats, frames, levers; unless there's an inconvenient fact, then that particular thing wasn't so important and could be half-assed.

How could anyone trust anything Egyptologists say, especially if the person doesn't actually known what they say, is beyond me.

 No.16907

>>16900
Dumb bass, south america also has many pacific island plants that came alongside traders. That's not evidence of ancient pre-ice age civilization. Plus, they have timed the migrations of both these plants and the animals to well past the ice age anyways.

 No.16908

>>16905
>As for the pyramids, once we get into dynastic Egypt have evidence of stone working even beyond the Maadi, we have records of them talking about their construction (yet not the Sphinx).
Who? The Maadi or the Egyptians?
>Why would the lie about creating the pyramids yet admit they didn't build the Sphinx?
Yeah, why would they lie about building a wonder? It helps to control your populations, if they think you're capable of such feats.
>My position is not of Egyptologist yet I don't jump to the conclusion of older civilization we don't have any evidence even existed.
You keep using that strawman. Find where I conclude that or stop mentioning it. It is dishonest and frankly, annoying.

As I keep saying OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. It is also tiring to keep having to explain myself, because it is easier for you to imagine me as some schizo who went into this, (500+ posts and replies about the topic over two threads), with faulty logic in the very premise of my argument.

All of this is NOT (negative, deny, refuse, reject) evidence that there existed an ancient pre-ice age civilisation.

With me so far?

This IS evidence of (positive, accepting, agreeing, yes) Egyptologists either willfully lying or just being wrong.

The lost civ theory is just ONE OF (not the only one, in company with others) the POSSIBLE (not certain, maybe yes, maybe no), ALTERNATIVE (not the same, but accounting for an equal or greater amount of data, evidence, explanations and predictions as the first/original) theories that could replace the current theory.

I'm always open to hear others.

>>16907
>Dumb bass, south america also has many pacific island plants that came alongside traders.
What? Are you saying they sailed across the Pacific ocean in 15.000BCE? When I said the "lost-civ" might have done it in 12.800BCE all the detractors said that's ridiculous. So no, there was no cross-ocean trade (according to the mainstream view) in 15.000BCE that could explain it.

>That's not evidence of ancient pre-ice age civilization

No, it is evidence that people migrated from Siberia to S. America BEFORE the last ice-age, in other words, BEFORE the time we used to think it happened. The archeologists say they walked, but didn't leave any genetic traces while walking through N. America.
>Plus, they have timed the migrations of both these plants and the animals to well past the ice age anyways.
You're kinda dumb dude. You're having trouble comprehending sentences. You saw one thing, but your brain read something completely different, the opposite actually.
>These early migrants made good time: By 14,800 years ago at the latest, radiocarbon dates suggest they were setting up camp in Monte Verde in southern Chile.
Last ice age (Younger Dryas) ended in 12.800BCE. When in the "before common era" or "before christ", before 0, the numbers aren't written with a negative, so it looks like they are getting smaller. But actually they are increasing, just like -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, that's in ascending order, from smallest number to largest. I know it's a bit confusing, but 12.800BCE actually comes AFTER 14.800BCE. Therefore they have shown the migration happened BEFORE the last ice age. You said after, which is incorrect

Furthermore, if you find the article and read it (my bad for not posting the link at the same time, it is a few posts below) you will find they tested people, not plants.
>The 2015 DNA studies revealed Australasian ancestry in two Indigenous Amazonian groups, the Karitiana and Suruí, based on the DNA of more than 200 living and ancient people. Many bore a signature set of genetic mutations, named the "Y signal" after the Brazilian Tupi word for "ancestor," ypikuéra.

>The new study, led by geneticist Tábita Hünemeier at the University of São Paulo, São Paulo, examined genetic data from 383 modern people from across South America, including dozens of newly genotyped individuals living in the Brazilian Amazon and central plateau.


Isn't this embarrassing for you? That I have to keep correcting you on basic facts, telling you how things work and explaining what the text/sentence actually means. It's been like this for a while. Personally, if I were you, I'd feel shame and probably do a quick web search and read more carefully, so I don't say dumb shit. You though, you seem to be in your element.

 No.16909

File: 1685300784287.png (314.16 KB, 385x471, ProtoSphinx.png)

>>16908
>Who? The Maadi or the Egyptians?
The Egyptians, they clearly state they restored the Sphinx but never claimed to have built it.
>Yeah, why would they lie about building a wonder?
Again, the admit they restored the Sphinx while saying they built the pyramids. Also the Sphinx would not have been much of a wonder, some carved head sticking out of a plateau, if the Greeks and Romans didn't think the Sphinx was a whole body work that was more ancient then them they would have been unimpressed. They would have noticed it is in an old quarry and wounder what the big deal was that someone carved a head using the stone of a quarry then left it there. It is they idea someone carved the whole thing that makes it seem impressive but you run into the problem of the stone quality rapidly diminishing below the head that they would have known from digging down elsewhere in the quarry.

>You keep using that strawman. Find where I conclude that or stop mentioning it. It is dishonest and frankly, annoying.

That you seem to dismiss the idea the Maadi could have made a proto-Sphinx.

 No.16910

>>16908
I was referencing a less popular theory about how they had far away heritage with so little evidence of continental migration. It's been long known that people from even as far as taiwan migrated to polynesia, their descendants slowly spread all across the islands there. So they island hopped all the way to near the coast of south america, closer than today because lower ocean levels meant more islands, and could even reach the coast easier. They didn't do cross-ocean trips, it was propably islanders close to the continent doing irregular trips there and interbreeding a bit. The plants I was referencing are the foreign plants that had somehow appeared on the other side of the ocean in the eyes of botany (sweet potato), which are now known to have been spread by these traders/explorers/migrants. But this hasn't been fully proven since the earliest confirmed date of contact between polynesians and south americans is around the ~1200 A.D. mark based on the spread of sweet potatoes. Personally I think this is fully plausible and will propably be the dominant theory in the future since even your article specifically talks about "Australian, Melanesian" ancestry.
And this isn't really "new-new" news:
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.331.6024.1512
https://www.science.org/content/article/most-archaeologists-think-first-americans-arrived-boat-now-they-re-beginning-prove-it

 No.16911

>>16909
>they clearly state they restored the Sphinx but never claimed to have built it.
That is something I didn't know. So why do they still say Egyptians made the Sphinx? Good source on the claim?
>Also the Sphinx would not have been much of a wonder
I was talking about the pyramids and the possible motivation for lying.
if the Greeks and Romans didn't think the Sphinx was a whole body work that was more ancient then them they would have been unimpressed.
Because it was buried?
>pic related
>It is they idea someone carved the whole thing that makes it seem impressive but you run into the problem of the stone quality rapidly diminishing below the head that they would have known from digging down elsewhere in the quarry.
A.K.A. the mainstream opinion: Egyptians carved the Sphinx in onen go, at around 2500BCE, around the same time they built Khafre's pyramid (because the Sphinx looks like Khafre). See what I mean with self-referential ad-hoc explanations.

>That you seem to dismiss the idea the Maadi could have made a proto-Sphinx.

Nope, again, I literally said the opposite.

Hm, looks like I accidentally deleted that post/part of the post or forgot to post. That is my mistake.

What I said (or wanted to say, but didn't, well, not really, cause I just went off)

>>16902
>You don't have to go that far back, there was still significant rainfall in the pre and early dynastic period.
For me, it's more about showing Egyptologists, liberals and the academia that kowtows are wrong and full of shit, that Egyptologists only care about their own reputation/ego and not about "the truth", while liberals only care about having a cohesive narrative that can be used to support their ideology, and not "reality". Libs will categorically reject anyone who doesn't agree with them, regardless of what the content is Academia/education is just another pillar of capitalism, along with the institution of marriage, banks, police, and a few others. Liberal capitalism has dominated the West, and no longer do we have "democracy" or any kind of vibrant debate about how we should organise our lives. We now have ossified institutions (with a plethora of specialised departments, that keep getting even more specialised and atomised) that manage capitalism/our system and therefore us.

The hierarchical/undemocratic structure of these institutions makes them resistant to change, and therefore less adaptable to changing conditions. Which is why maintaining the status quo and "everything must stay as it is but it can be "improved", again by specialising. A good example is the kitchen, how is it "improved" in capitalism? By creating specialised tools: a blender, juicer, food processor, which all do the same thing essentially (it is a spinning blade, only the shape of blade and container is different).

This specialisation isn't done for specialisation's sake, it has a purpose. The specialisation in institutions is just to create more jobs ("bullshit jobs") for all those academia graduates who are facing a prospect of joblesness because all productive work (in the Marxist sense, not dictionary definition) has been moved out of the West. Productive labour actually benefits from specialisation and division of labour, because generally it means something can be made faster, or improvements can be achieved quicker. This creates more value, and the surplus can be used to support that person.

What happens in institutions is that they become money sinks, they create no value. For example what value can be created from every police department having a SWAT team, bomb squad, armored vehicle, snipers, etc. it costs more. But it helps manage capitalism/us,

Coming back to academia. The atomisation and specialisation of academic departments results in professors having an "ant hill" to defend, they have to fight to maintain their position, while departments compete against each other for funding, professors fight to maintain the position, while students compete The logic of capitalism is recreated in all of its constituent parts/institutions. For example marriage has become transactional, and an economic decision, rather than anything about love.

Plekhanov in Monist theory of.history says that society, history, what we analyse.with Marxism is made up of trillions of individual actions, from which patterns emerge, like ants' colony intelligence emerges, or our consciousnesses. It's dialectics – lots of.small quantitative.changes, results in qualitative change.

SO! Liberals understand this, that's why it is important to keep any changes to a minimum, maintain status quo on all fronts. Change is allowed only.once it has been appropriated by capitalism and filtered through the ideology so all of its original content is gone or changed, so as to actually support the system, rather than be a threat to it. An example off the top of my head: MLK and Malcolm X, also Nelson Mandela. All supporters of violence and socialists, but that is not.how they are presented. They called Mandela a terrorist and supported the SA government that imprisoned him, but once he's dead and no longer a threat, he was a hero, changed the world blah blah blah

Professors are in a similar position in academia, like.bourgeoisie are in society: it is precarious, they have threats from below, from other professors, etc. And what do you do in society to make your position safer? You organize yourself as a class, stop infighting and focus on maintaining your collective position, while at the same time.keeping the other class in check. What does this mean in practice? Professors support/take on students that agree with them and wish to continue their work, not the ones who disagree or think differently. Between disciplines, they all have this tacit understanding that they

Liberal/bourgeois science is political and individual. Political, because it is the political ideology that determines what science will be done, i.e..which specialised "departments" will be created. E.g. nuclear research and energy, or not. So while the scientific method, as a tool, is politically-agnostic (more or less), the decision where it is used is not.

Back to academia (we're getting closer to egyptology and the point, I promise). These various specialised departments within academia are specialised in the liberal/bourgeois sense, not the socialist sense (rationalisation? Lukacs, not dictionary). This means rather than increasing productivity (more vibrant discussion and a more Feyerabendian approach to science), they become disconnected, all "reporting" to an authority rather than each other ("free association of producers"). Instead of cooperating and ensuring coherence amongst each other, they can only check it against the.dominant ideology to check its "correctness". Again, in a socialist/Marxist country checking against the ideology is OK, because it is a critical ideology (Marxist sense, not "woke" or dictionary sense), change is in-built into its core premises.

In liberalism, one of the core premises is not changing. That's why Fukuyama could say it's the end of history. Liberalism is philosophically idealist, this means that "progress" to them means going towards a goal, and that goal is inclusion (dictionary sense, not "woke" sense). Inclusion (and consequent subsumption) of every human, and every living being and non-living thing into itself, i.e. capitalism. How does one include things? Many ways, it could be on equal grounds, comradely, with mutual respect and respect for everything else. On account of our proletarian consciousness, we know, among other things, that we are not alone on a deserted island, but the product of our material conditions and the interaction of things, just how we use various things from nature and through cooperation create value.

In liberalism, inclusion is done not with respect between equals, it is done patronisingly, from the standpoint of a caretaker. They take you in "to help you", just like " job creators" give jobs, and they certainly don't exploit the person they "help". You, and everything else becomes a ward of liberal capitalism. That is why poor people are helped with small handouts, rather than with anything that might actually change their position, because ultimately for liberalism it's better if the person stays where they are, but they can live in an apartment, and enjoy gadgets – toys in a cage.

Liberalism also uses analytical philosophy, because that suits it. Much like Marxism looks at change, so analytical philosophy, and therefore the logic of doing science, is about analysing things at rest. Where Marxism looks at the whole, the interaction of all the moving parts and the various contradictions that arise out of it at the points where opposites find purchase/friction. Much like bourgeois science is satisfied by dissecting and labeling all the parts of the things they analyse, liberalism too takes things out ("kills" them by removing them from the interactions that make them what they are. It's our relationships, our interactions with other things that make us what we are, and not the various organs that make us up. Cut "our" liver out and you are still you, you aren't now you-minus-liver. There is nothing inherently about it that makes it "yours". It carries a DNA code that allows the organ to grow and determines its relationship to other organs. But that isn't "you". The ONLY way it is yours, is when it is interacting with the other organs and its part of the whole that makes "you". Outside of that, it is just a piece of meat.

Liberals classify and label everything. Because they mistake knowing what something is made of for understanding. Every academic discipline has their "thing". Just like telecom companies divide the market amongst themselves, so do academia and science institutions divide the world amongst themselves. They all get something to do, a piece of the world to analyse, in other words to classify and control, become "experts" on that one thing and stay in their lane! With that, naturally, comes the belief that only way to know about something or become an expert, is to be anointed by the current "experts", like I have mentioned professors protecting their position.

In EGYPTOLOGY (we made it) this is shown in how they are satisfied with classifying all the old.shit thet.find, labeling its date of production, producer, buyer and what it is composed of. That's it. The tools used, the details of work was organised, that's not important. That only becomes important in the little niche that is anthropology (also one of the few places were Marxism is allowed, stripped of its revolutionary content). That is also why the Egyptologists are satisfied with never asking for help from other discipljnes, unless it is to learn one of the aforementioned properties.

Egyptology doesn't have to make their "knowledge" compatible with other disciplines, it needs to be somewhat internally consistent and be compatible with the dominant ideology. And as long as it supports the dominant ideology, it will get support from all the relevant things subsumed by the liberal capitalist system.

By support I don't mean some kind of mumbo jumbo hippie energy shit, but media will write about it, wikipedia authors will write "a fringe theory" before they mention your opponents' theories, and so on. Who tells them to do this? Nobody, or rather their consciousness and whatever ideology they have internalised. Their subconsciousness, the part of the consciousness we don't have access to, that still affects our actions, isn't something we get ready to go out of the factory, it is something that develops as we grow, interact with the world, others, as we're taught, etc. So if you have internalised the dominant ideology, you will recognise it in others, and most people will want to inteeacrlt with whom they are compatible with. And yes, I think a lot.of this "decision making" happens in the part we don't really have access to (but it can be "programmed")

Finally getting to THE POINT. I went off on a few tangents, just need to clean up formatting at some point Why do I do this?

I don't give a shit about Hancock or what the particular theory that challenges the dominant view. This Hancock vs Egyptologists is a small contradiction, but a contradiction none the less. We need more of them, and we need to try to increase them, not decrease them. We shouldn't be on the liberals' side. I know he is not a communist, or a revolutionary, but he is increasing contradictions in this one area.

Egyptologists are trying to maintain the status quo, because just like with the bourgeoisie, status quo helps those in power stay in power and continue reaping benefits from their position. While contradictions, struggle is where workers can develop a proletarian consciousness.

We want chaos, because chaos is opportunity. That is why action has to be two-fold: 1) increase contradictions, chaos; 2) build dual power, organise, so that when opportunity in chaos arises there is a movement that can take advantage of it and bring workers to power. Is it a coincidence that the successful revolutions (French, Russian) came on the heels of a war?

 No.16912

>>16911
Forgot to add. I have no illusions about organising online, I do praxis in the material world. What can be done online, is strengthen arguments against liberal academia, teach others about it, and so on.

Someone should do for.quantum physics what Hancock does to egyptology. Bohmian vs Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. Again, they separate and analyse, so now e-m waves are waves AND particles. What are they waves of? Probability curves! probability that a particle is in a certain spot. Then you have Bohmian interpretation, you could say materialist. Because idealism doesn't mean it is "ideal", idealists think ideas come before matter. So to them, having a mathematical formula that calculates the probability of particles position or velocity is good enough for them, because they have an "uncertainty principles". So apparently current interpretation of quantum mechanics says that particles pop in and out of existence.

Like I said, theories in liberal/bourgeois science and academia only need to be internally consistent (Even if you have to assume there is uncertainty in the universe) and consistent with liberal ideology.

 No.16913

>>16910
>https://www.science.org/content/article/most-archaeologists-think-first-americans-arrived-boat-now-they-re-beginning-prove-it
<That discovery, in 2004, proved to be no anomaly; since then, Des Lauriers has discovered 14 other early sites and excavated two, pushing back the settlement of Cedros Island to nearly 13,000 years ago.

<The Cedros Island sites add to a small but growing list that supports a once-heretical view of the peopling of the Americas. Whereas archaeologists once thought that the earliest arrivals wandered into the continent through a gap in the ice age glaciers covering Canada, most researchers today think the first inhabitants came by sea. In this view, maritime explorers voyaged by boat out of Beringia—the ancient land now partially submerged under the waters of the Bering Strait—about 16,000 years ago and quickly moved down the Pacific coast, reaching Chile by at least 14,500 years ago.


A pre-ice age "civilisation" that could navigate seas and build boats…🤔

 No.16914

>>16908
>What is something I didn't know. So why do they still say Egyptians made the Sphinx? Good source on the claim?
Because of the head carving, the idea that dynastic Egypt carved it out of something like Moai head is lost on them even though we have examples of them recurving their own statues. Then imagine the drama of the idea the Sphinx is two statues mushed together, the re-carved head and the plateau that they modified into the shape of the body.
>I was talking about the pyramids and the possible motivation for lying.
Yes but if they were lying I would think they would lie over their age thus the great pyramid (and such) being middle kingdom rather then old when they had iron tools making their construction easier for them.
>Because it was buried?
Again looking at the weak stone under the head I don't think it was ever meant to be a full body statue. Here is a plausible theory, the mining operation at the quarry left a plateau that could be viable from the river. The locals decided to carve a head on the plateau facing the river, they knew the layers of rock going down because they already went to bed rock in the quarry thus confident they could carve a head in it. They left the plateau as a rectangle as they knew all that stone was not worth extracting due to its poor quality. The result was a head sticking out of a rectangle rock plateau in the middle of an active quarry that would flood because its a quarry they didn't give a shit they'd just wait for the water to run down to the river. Of course Egyptologist don't like to admit this level of civilization existed in the pre-dynastlic period because it comes with an uncomfortable baggage that the settlements that got annexed into the first Egypt dynasty by force were civilized too.

 No.16915

>>16914
Again, it doesn't matter what happened precisely or what the truth is. Egyptologists are wrong, that's the take-away.

 No.16916

>>16913
More like towns/villages. But them building ocean-worthy boats and navigating by the stars isn't really that amazing, go visit a more tribal area somewhere around the pacific and ask them to teach you. Wasn't it a big deal when those guys sailed across the atlantic with a wooden ship a few years ago.

 No.16917

>>16916
>them building ocean-worthy boats and navigating by the stars isn't really that amazing,
lol wtf? it is a big deal and it is amazing. Wood loses it's strength the longer it is, so building long boats presents some challenges. You look at a sea and you think "oh that's just water", well boats at sea are constantly pushed and pulled by forces. There's the upward force, the downward force, all the water, and so on. Boats need to be strong enough to withstand those forces. That's why (they used to think) Vikings' longboats were the first to cross the ocean, in 1100 CE with boats whose planks were fastened with iron nails, as well as being able to tack. For comparison, galleys, like the Roman trireme could not sail against the wind, sails were for downwind, oars for manouvering and up wind.
>navigating by the stars isn't really that amazing,
Are you just pretending to be dumb, or do you really think that? You really think that navigating with the naked eye, on a spinning, revolving Earth, using lights from a source billions of kilometers away isn't that amazing?

Well, no wonder you think the way you do. You've been so alienated from human activity that you don't think things like navigating by the stars with the naked eye is an amazing feat.

I suggest you try to make something from the ground up, something useful. Out of wood, metal, concrete, doesn't matter. I don't mean assemble pre-made parts, I mean take raw materials and turn them into something useful. That is the only way you will see for yourself, because Hollywood movies with montages and supermarkets full of stuff made you believe that things are easy to make just because we have machines and tools that do it for us.

 No.16918

>>16912
>quantum physics
Incidentally I know someone working in that field. What we decided on regarding the issue of truth is that "Truth is a consensus"

 No.16919

>>16918
>What we decided on regarding the issue of truth is that "Truth is a consensus"
That's what I mean when I say "socially constructed" knowledge. I don't agree with it, because it is rarely a consensus of independent individuals who have come to the idea on their own, it's more of a nepotistic affair and it isn't so merit-based. Practically, how do you decide how much a consensus you need, how to achieve it, and so on.

"Consensus" is a slippery word that can mean a lot of things and be used in various ways. Consensus is that communism is bad and capitalism good, does that make the statement true?

An example I can think of is Einstein's theory of general relativity. It was met with ridicule the first 5-10 years of its existence, and only once the old professors gate keeping physics died off, could Einstein's ideas be studied.

Ask your friend what he thinks of the Bohmian interpretation of quantum mechanics. It's a materialist conception of quantum mechanics, as opposed to the Copenhagen interpretation, that relies on magic.

 No.16920

How is anything the OP news to anyone?

This article about paved roads connecting cities dates back to at least 2005:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacbe?&useskin=vector

Fucking clickbait bullshit.

 No.16921

>>16920
And yet the thread was locked, curious.

 No.16922

>>16917
Man, ocean-worthy ships like catamarans aren't "amazing" "big-deals". They had a problem to solve and solve it they did: add a bunch of floaters on the sides to stabilize a long and narrow hull. Don't need no math to do it.
>You really think that navigating with the naked eye, on a spinning, revolving Earth, using lights from a source billions of kilometers away isn't that amazing?
<We're all made up of dead stars, isn't that heckin' amazerino!??!

 No.16923

>>16922
<We're all made up of dead stars, isn't that heckin' amazerino!??!
>missing the point
>writing down the first association that pops into your head
What's amazing is that you've somehow survived long enough to learn how to use a computer.

You say things without understanding their implications. They "just" built ocean-going ships and they "just" navigated with the naked eye. It betrays your poor understanding of how things work. Have you ever been on a boat? I sail. I bet you'd miss a spot by kilometers in a rowboat with GPS. Do you know how hard it is to look at your GPS location and find corresponding points on the coast? That's why they have buoys, poles, lighthouses, even fucking signs, so that you go where you want to go. Now think about what it'd take to cross the fucking Pacific Ocean.
>add a bunch of floaters
>floaters
Such as…? You can't just use a noun formed from a verb that describes the supposed function you think they had. It's like saying they had helicopters, they just used lifters.
>ocean-worthy ships like catamarans aren't "amazing" "big-deals".
The Internet and its plethora of search engines, as well as libgen and sci-hub make it very easy to find information and look up history of ships and boat building, there really is no excuse for your lack of knowledge. Go look up when archeologists/historians think ocean-going ships were invented.

 No.17982

If Hancock so smart so wise, why does he insist the Yonaguni monuments are artificial?
Graham Hancock - unabsolved

 No.20843

>>16922
>denigrating mankind's achievements in ancient times because "it's simple"
Build me a fucking longboat with the tools and materials available to the people of the past, within a year. I don't even care about this thread, but reading this shit tells me that you're an armchair analyst with no fucking experience in physical labour.

 No.21492

File: 1705845037785.png (1.55 MB, 1080x1714, lidarsettlements.png)

Hancock vindicated yet again
We can't stop winning lostcivbros…
https://www.science.org/content/article/laser-mapping-reveals-oldest-amazonian-cities-built-2500-years-ago
>Archaeologists once believed the ancient Amazon rainforest was an inhospitable place, sparsely populated by bands of hunter-gatherers. But the remains of enormous earthworks, pyramids, and roads from Bolivia to Brazil discovered over the past 2 decades have proved conclusively that the Amazon was home to large, complex societies long before European colonizers arrived. Now, there’s evidence that another human society—the oldest yet—left its mark on the region: A dense network of interconnected cities, now hidden beneath the forest in Ecuador’s Upano Valley, has been revealed by the laser mapping technology called lidar. The settlements, described today in Science, are at least 2500 years old, more than 1000 years older than any other known complex Amazonian society.

No, this is not evidence of Hancock's "lost civ".
>What is it evidence of then?
Hancock has been arguing human civilisation is older than mainstream archeology tells us, he predicts that as more research is done the more older civilisations we'll find. These settlements in the Amazon are older than mainstream archeology thought existed.

If we are still finding settlements in the Amazon, who knows what is hiding on the bottom of the ocean (of which we have mapped only 1%), under dozens of meters of sand, on the sunken continents.

 No.21511

>>16922
You are genuinely retarded and schizophrenic. You should seriously think about the rabbithole you are in and consider reaching out for help.

 No.21524

>>21492
Already made a post demonstrating why this is a sensationalist and misleading headline.
>>21392
>>21394

 No.21850

>>17982
>why does he insist the Yonaguni monuments are artificial
I don't recollect him claiming this but Kimura Misaaki has stated such and has the education in tectonics, geology, archeology etc. to know what he's talking about. The idea of a sunken city or remains of such are not far-fetched. Russia has many legends of such sunken ancient cities, with at least a few accounts of Soviet explorers finding such places in the early 1930s but being unable to locate them again because they lacked the mapping equipment to mark the mountains and canyons they were exploring.

 No.21945

>>21850
yes and various other geologists insist they are a natural phenomena

 No.21948

>>21945
>various other geologists insist they are a natural phenomena
<The mainstream assertion claims the opposite
No shit.


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