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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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 No.17236

Dunayevskaya’s state capitalist critique of the USSR, she read state stats and analyzed the data with the categories in Marx’s Capital, it’s really fascinating! Touches on labour laws, revolt, crises, preponderance of machinery, commodity fetishism, world market, LoV and more. I love when actual quantitative data is used in these types of questions. The book was published in 1958 but supposedly she began developing this theory as early as 1942, maybe even as early as 1939/40.

 No.17237

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 No.17238

got the PDF?

 No.17239

It's just old anticommunist drivel under the guise of red flag. Boring.

The way that cunt butchers Marx's ideas is especially aggravating

 No.17240

>>17239
least misogynist leftypoltard

 No.17241

>>17239
Butchers how? Dunayevskaya was literally a communist.

 No.17242

>>17240
I learned english from bongs, they use "cunt" as gender nuetral insult, you bloody burger.

 No.17243

>>17241
For a start she obviously didn't read Gotha. And she doesn't understand what commodity fetishism is.

Generally it's a collection of antisoviet myths, not even mild liberal myths, but a hardcore schizo myth on the level of "black hundreds" about how in tsarist times people ate better than in USSR which is a complete bullshit. Myths about being incarcerated for "being 15 minutes late" are especially laughable. All it lack is talking about being send to gulag for stealing "three ear of wheat" or something. I am retty sure it's somewhere in the book tho.

If she is a communist so is Solzhenitsyn.

 No.17244

>>17236
>rapid deterioration of living standards from 1913 to 1940

Why are you reading retards?

Did she mention even once that USSR had yearly price decreases at the time, no? Does she take into account all the new housing, schools, hospitals? You've brought us a profoundly retarded analysis

 No.17245

>>17236
>random stats presented in the most uncharitable way possible to construct the narrative

Typical. See, we have prices in 1913 and in 1940, wages for 1913 and 1940, and then we analyze those in separation to production/consumption. You'd think they would try to understand why's the puzzle doesn't solve itself, but isntead they immediately go into "well they must be faking stats" instead

>one showy subway and some factories


I smell butthurt off this lib

>15 minutes late to gulag

>taken out of school for vocational training
>fascist saboteurs were actually le heckin based Russians resisting USSR

Yikes. I bet that retard also shlicked off to Animal Farm and repeated the lies about Soviets failing at education reforms. Idiots like this were hit the hardest fist when USSR broke an Europe's worth of Nazis and fascist, and then during Sputnik moment

 No.17246

>>17244
>Did she mention even once that USSR had yearly price decreases at the time, no?
The biggest retardation is that it's simply comparing wages and prices of food without taking into account what those wages are spent on. In the USSR workers didn't have to worry about rent, healthcare and education while in Russian Empire rent would eat most of that wage alone. Not to mention that a lot of food consumption in USSR was free, as in factory diners, kolkhoz field kitchens and so on. And that is just assuming those numbers on wages and prices aren't fiddled with which i am pretty sure is the case too.

Funny how she talks about commodity fetishism yet makes income equivalent to consumption which is exactly that fetishism lol. Anyone who makes that argument has no place to call himself communist or marxist, simple as.

 No.17247

File: 1684655288732.png (21.81 KB, 914x96, ClipboardImage.png)

>>17236
>le biological yield
>only Russian economists use it! Everyone else agrees it's baaaad!

https://agriculturistmusa.com/crop-yield-estimation/

Although I have a suspicion that since the person who wrote the article is from a non-Western country - Bangladesh - they might as well be studying Lysenko not as a science freak, as well as other Soviet scientists. Wow, what can biological yield even mean? Why would Soviets even want to know the amount of grain on the stalks before the harvest and how much was actually harvested? Such travesty!

>statistics lump workers and employees into one category

>when they don't, they lump together rural and urban!

Which means the retard somehow didn't have access to actual Soviet statistics which has shown stats such as Kolkhoz employment figures. I bet she also would ignore the fact that USSR had top spot in the world for the use of agricultural combines and had more tractors than Germany. Don't fucking forget that USSR's agricultural fields total was 60% of USA's in 1920-30s with much worse climate.

Also, randomly stumbled upon a scientific research into the implementation of tractors in USSR, which said that collective farms in 1926 used tractors more extensively (160 hectares per tractor) than state farms (130) and lease cooperation i.e. private farms (90). Collective farms were simply better at implementing new technology efficiently

 No.17248

>>17247
Honestly, why read retards from OP when you (if you know Russian) read articles like this one about the state of agrarian sector in USSR in 1920-30s from Soviets themselves?
https://istmat.org/node/43401

They go into minute detail about outputs of farms and factories producing industrial goods for farmers, they have relevant stats, they compare them to other countries, etc etc. Hell, they even track "regionalization" of production, i.e. they looked at such a weird fact as 70% of industrial goods for farms getting produced in around Ukraine, and that Odessa was producing ploughs for use exclusively in North Russia - and that this had to end because it's inefficient and that North Russia needs to have it's own production of ploughs tailored to it's conditions.

It's just plain better read, you know?

 No.17249

>>17247
She doesn't just say it's "bad"; she explains why it's bad as well: it underestimates the economic yield (the actual amount harvested for consumption), sometimes seriously. There are reasons why you might want to know the biological yield, but you wouldn't normally do this to the exclusion of the economic yield. The site you link to simply explains the concept.

Why do tankies need to misrepresent people they respond to? It happens in every other discussion on this board, and it's irritating to hear endless ad hominem, misogyny (it's somehow much worse than it ever was during the Gamergate era, across multiple threads), and strawmen when confronted by contrary evidence.

 No.17250

>>17249
>Why do tankies need to misrepresent people they respond to?

There is literally someone who posted an article >>17248 about how soviets estimated their yield in reality as opposed to misrepresentation by author of this crap book. Crying about "misrepresentation" while posting some shitty anticommunist drivel about "gulag for 15 minutes late" is one hell of a double standard.

 No.17251

>state capitalism
there's no such thing

 No.17252

>>17251
so socialism is when the gubmint does stuff?

 No.17253

>>17252
Yes, that's why the Qing dynasty was socialist

 No.17254

>>17240
>nooo you cant dismiss some revisionist idiot because she is a WOMYN!!
Western culture is a disease, a plague. There is no cure.

 No.17255

>>17254
westerners having a fetish for their made up idea of the east is so funny

 No.17256

>>17255
>womyn are immune from criticism
>m-muh east
WTF are you bringing it up for, is the east in the room with us right now?

 No.17257


 No.17258

>>17255
>>17254
ChatGPT
>>17256
They're bots they can't think or conceptualize rooms or magnetic poles.

 No.17259

>>17242
>>17254
Yeah calling her a cunt definitely had nothing to do with her being a woman. If it was a man who wrote the text (or if OP didn't mention the name of the author or her pronouns) that poster 100% would have used that word.

 No.17260

>>17241
>communist
She was an anticommunist hack wearing a red garb in order to attack at socialism from within. Have you not learned a single thing from the experience of the Soviet Union? Reactionaries couldn't openly declare their true ambition of seeing socialist construction thwarted, they had to lay low and disguise themselves as honest communists who opposed and sabotaged the development of socialism all the same, but who framed their political position as having a mere "critique" of the successful campaigns that were crushing the bourgeoisie, the landlords, the imperialists, the social-chauvinists, and all of their lackeys.

 No.17261

>>17259
Wow such an astute observation anon, that they'd probably use "dickhead" instead.

 No.17262

>>17250
If it's there, then cite it and translate it. I hate it when people indicate that sources in some other language explain how "x" is wrong yet fail to elucidate how in their own words. In languages I know and can trace the sources, this is usually nothing more than posturing at best, and it's often intended as eristic.
>Crying about "misrepresentation" while posting some shitty anticommunist drivel about "gulag for 15 minutes late" is one hell of a double standard.
No one said the latter. I complained about misrepresentation, among other things, because that's what you're doing.

 No.17263

>>17249
>Why do tankies need to misrepresent people they respond to?
I'm not familiar with Dunayevskaya's work, but the edgiest MLs online do this because otherwise they would be forced to face the absurdity of their ideology.
They prefer to pretend everyone who criticized the USSR was basically a liberal or a fascist, even though a Marxian critique of the Soviets already started with Rosa Luxemburg right when the USSR was founded.

The Marxian critique of AES took many different forms over the 20th century, and some who formulated it eventually became liberals for sure, but many became more radical than official communist parties due to their critique of bureaucracy, and ended up having little trouble applying it to the West later on, as neoliberalism involves heavy state intervention despite what its proponents might say.

It's like when they post On Authority every time someone use the word "authoritarian". Have they even read the actual text?
>All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society.
If the USSR shall be judged by these standards, well the Marxist-Leninist project failed completely.
I wouldn't call the purge of Old Soviets like Bukharin a "simple administrative function", well after after the October Revolution. I wouldn't use anything like the Cultural Revolution or the Great Firewall of China as an example of "public functions [losing] their political character", on the contrary, this tendency only intensified under ML regimes.
And it's not a question of "abolishing [the political state] at one stroke", the Soviets almost had a whole century to do so, but by Brezhnev the high ranking officials of the CPSU were a rapidly declining gerontocracy.
Sure, if the Germans communists would have won the revolution in 1919, things would have been much easier, but in the end, capitalism was more resilient than Marxism-Leninism, who lost its raison d'être after initial heavy industrialization and proletarianization of peasants, during the 1970s, deal with it.

The thing is, tw*tter tankies won't listen to any critique, to them it's all myths made up by the CIA and fascists, so I don't really want to bother arguing with them – btw not all MLs are like this, some have good arguments in their favor and are more willing to recognize historical mistakes.
I just hope some of them will eventually join a ML micro-org as unapologetic and intransigent as they are, and inevitably burnout when they realize it's not terribly epic to do praxis in the rigid old-school way in the 21st century – unless they live somewhere like in the Philippines, again not all MLs are bad – but I hope that instead of quitting politics or becoming a liberal, they will instead read the Marxists who unashamedly described the USSR as "state capitalist" or something among those lines during these years, and correctly diagnosed that bureaucracy de facto replaced capitalists as the ruling class in the USSR, to finally develop new ideas relevant to our current material conditions instead of clinging to the ghosts of the past.

 No.17264

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>>17249
>it underestimates the economic yield (the actual amount harvested for consumption), sometimes seriously.

Do you have any actual proof that Soviets were THAT dumb and used biological yield WITHOUT using economic yield? You know that you can use both to measure the amount of waste, right?

What if you are a country that wants to decrease the amounts of waste? How do you control that without valid statistics?

"Scientific" anticommunism is all like this - just misrepresentation and uncharitable idiocy.

>>17263
>many became more radical than official communist parties due to their critique of bureaucracy

Oh wow, people who were citicizing nothingburger buzzwords could apply those buzzwords to neoliberal countries. Must be fate and a sign that their reading is "marxist" and correct

 No.17265

>>17263
>And it's not a question of "abolishing [the political state] at one stroke", the Soviets almost had a whole century to do so, but by Brezhnev the high ranking officials of the CPSU were a rapidly declining gerontocracy.

If Soviets continued with Stalinism, there would be no Khruschevism/Brezhevism. Your reading of the situation is retarded.

>more willing to recognize historical mistakes.


Stalin's mistake was dying too early to carry out an after-war purge. Mao managed to live long enough to salvage the situation in China.

>tankies won't listen to any critique, to them it's all myths made up by the CIA and fascists


Oh? Well then, here's my critique of your retard position - Stalin was bad because he wasn't Stalin enough and was too kind to opposition, and that's the whole reason why USSR fell. USSR was too LIBERAL

 No.17266

>>17264
>nothingburger buzzwords
You are using buzzwords yourself, uygha. Being smug isn't a argument.
Look at Eurocommunism or Dengism, I thought you principled MLs were decrying such revisionism? How did it happen? How revisionists got allowed to take up the reigns in the first place?

 No.17267

>>17266
>Look at Eurocommunism or Dengism, I thought you principled MLs were decrying such revisionism?

Eurocommunism is revisionist nonsense, Dengism is Marxism-Leninism adapted to China and developing further. people who call it revisionism are retards

>How revisionists got allowed to take up the reigns in the first place?


Dying too early due to criminal medical negligence, most often

 No.17268

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>>17265
>If Soviets continued with Stalinism, there would be no Khruschevism/Brezhevism.
Why didn't they? Why oh glorious Stalinism was allowed to rot in the first place?

>Stalin's mistake was dying too early to carry out an after-war purge.

Lol. Don't forget to spread the truth among the masses.

>Mao managed to live long enough to salvage the situation in China.

Are you a Xi fanboy?

>Stalin was bad because he wasn't Stalin enough and was too kind to opposition, and that's the whole reason why USSR fell. USSR was too LIBERAL

<literally "the gas chambers gulags didn't exist but should have"-tier argument
Pic related, keep coping.

 No.17269

>>17240
>>17259
least retarded feminist

 No.17270

>>17267
>Dying too early due to criminal medical negligence, most often

And by that I mean: Kirov's murder, numerous attempts at Lenin's life, Zhdanov dying to preventable medical condition, Stalin also dying to such. There's plenty of such shit in Soviet history.

Chinese got a better deal out of it because they probably had much more replacement figures for anyone dying, thus assassinations had less effect and were used much less often

 No.17271

>>17267
>Dying too early due to criminal medical negligence
The ideas were correct, the Absolute was almost reached, the only problem was that the Big Guys died too early.
Never change /leftypol/, self-crit is for pussies.

 No.17272

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>>17268
>Why oh glorious Stalinism was allowed to rot in the first place?

Yes-yes, fighting revisionism is the same as allowing it because - gasp! - they were fighting it therefore there was revisionism. Retard.

>literally "the gas chambers gulags didn't exist but should have"-tier argument


There's huge fucking difference between being a retard to who believes in 700k dead people - without any corpses or photos to prove it - and saying that Stalin failed to carry out a PLANNED afterwar purge because he died.

Well, that anon was completely correct. You people can only misrepresent and smugly attack strawmen

>Are you a Xi fanboy?

Which country is Crimea?

 No.17273

>>17268
>Why didn't they?
the trotskyite-khruschevites led a coup d etat during the last years of stalin's life. stalin was ready to democratize the ussr and establish a dotp

 No.17274

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>>17271
>The ideas were correct, the Absolute was almost reached
next thing you tell me is that wars with the aim to conquer or change government don't work either because - gasp! - physical reality can't actually intervene into the ideology of people. I mean, who would in their sane mind assassinate anybody? What changes would it even bring? It's just one insignificant man dying, there's no way society will change as a result!

 No.17275

>>17272
>Yes-yes, fighting revisionism is the same as allowing it because - gasp! - they were fighting it therefore there was revisionism. Retard.
Define "revisionism" otherwise I will consider it as an other buzzword you are throwing around.

>Stalin failed to carry out a PLANNED afterwar purge because he died.

We got it, you are an edgy boy.

>Which country is Crimea?

Crimea is de facto part of Russia since 2014, but is de jure part of Ukraine because Western bureaucrats can't stop coping just like the bunch of (You) memelords.

 No.17276

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>>17275
>pic

Any actual proof Stalin said this?

>Define "revisionism"


You used the word first to try and finnagle me into the "MLs lost because even China isn't communist" kind of retarded fight. Fuck you, define revisionism yourself.

Btw, this is yet another tactic retards like you use to try and win fights by technicalities instead of pursuing truth. Man, it sure is going to be a fruitful fight over definitions with you trying your hardest to stretch present day China into revisionism - despite the fact that Marxism is an actual fucking science and thus develops, while revisionism is a REVISION of marxism which breaks with marxism

>We got it, you are an edgy boy.


You have no argument

>Crimea is de facto part of Russia since 2014, but is de jure part of Ukraine


State your position.

 No.17277

>>17274
If your org get subverted, it means their organizational method was ineffective in the end, especially when it happens over and over again.
You can get inspired by the way ML used to organize workers, for example it's certainly possible to have a vanguard party without circlejerking about how Stalin did nothing wrong.
But listening to twatter MLs, revisionists propped up everywhere at the same time all around the Western bloc, and not a single hard-working Stalinist took the task of courageously saving the USSR from its demise.
Just self-crit like a good Maoist would ffs.

 No.17278

>>17276
>State your position.
I already did. I don't see any point in pursuing this discussion if you can't take 2 seconds to search what "de facto" and "de jure" means in a dictionary, these are basic concepts in law.

 No.17279

>>17277
>If your org get subverted, it means their organizational method was ineffective in the end

That's why you purge. Stalin failed to purge for more than 10 years. Claiming that communist party must allow non-communists and careerists and do well without any kind of vetting otherwise their organizational method is bad because - gasp! - they have to remove people from the party is profoundly retarded

>especially when it happens over and over again.


Antidote is purges over and over, until popular culture changes and people internalize that communist party is for communists, not for careers. It is a long process.

>it's certainly possible to have a vanguard party without circlejerking about how Stalin did nothing wrong.


You just want to have a communist party with liberalism - meaning you are a revisionist/opportunist. There's ZERO reasons to cut out Stalin from a communist party's pantheon and ZERO reasons to add Trotsky or whatever repressed retard you worship. Only stalinist parties managed to create AES, no other parties ever even approached conquering a state. Even when the power was jumping into their hands, like in case with November Revolution, they refused to go for a power grab because they were too liberal

>and not a single hard-working Stalinist took the task of courageously saving the USSR from its demise.


Lmao, stalinists were fighting revisionists for decades after Stalin's death, and they were aiding China in opposition to revisionist course of CPSU. One of the reasons for the split, by the way.

>>17278
All of us here played paradox games. I'm asking about your fucking opinion

 No.17280

>>17276
It does sound like something he would have said great man that he was who did nothing wrong other than being too kind and merciful

 No.17281

>>17280
Dude, it's fucking obvious that if Stalin has died to doctors' plot he wasn't as great as we'd like. You aren't proving anything

 No.17282

>>17278
>All of us here played paradox games. I'm asking about your fucking opinion
Who gives a fuck about my opinion? My opinion on what? "Which country is Crimea"? Crimea is a peninsula surrounded by the Black Sea, not a country.
I'm talking about the present state of things, kiddo, I'm not talking about your alt-history simulator, I'm talking about what is currently existing right now, in the material world.
Also if you didn't play so many games, you would be able to read the subtext of the:
>because Western bureaucrats can't stop coping just like the bunch of (You) memelords.
part of my post. So please, stop disappointing daddy Xi and do your homework next time.

 No.17283

>>17282
You could have said "Crimea is Russia" or "Crimea is Ukraine" and be done with it, instead you go on tangents about how it doesn't matter. Fine then, what about Donetsk and Luhansk and Cherson and Zaporozhie?

 No.17284

>>1476096
Man, why is it so hard for you?

What is your own opinion? Your own moral judgement?

 No.17285

>>1476096
>>17284
>jewish nigger scum.

The Crimea question never ceases to out people like you, lol

 No.17286

>>17284
>Your own moral judgement?
Why should I care about having a "moral judgement" on Eastern European border skirmishes? I only care about my class interests, and I can't live out of any private property rights over capital.
I thought Lenin thought "morals" shouldn't get in the way of class politics. I'm only analyzing the situation from afar, once again:
>de facto controlled by Russia, probably for a foreseeable future, de jure part of Ukraine as long as NATO refuses to accept they basically lost the war.

 No.17287

>>17279
>Antidote is purges over and over, until popular culture changes and people internalize that communist party is for communists, not for careers. It is a long process.
The best way to wreck a radical political organization IRL. Not a good thing to do unless you are paid by the state to sow fbi.gov among socialists trying to organize according to their class interests.
Again, I suggest you to get involved in a party or an union away from the keyboard, and to try to impose such a hardline stance based on this unapologetic view of the history of AES.
Remember:
>The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.
If you ever feel burnout, don't abandon political thinking, Marx is objectively the most important thinker of modern times, just broaden your horizons, he influenced many interesting people.

 No.17288

>>17287
>The best way to wreck a radical political organization IRL.

Why do you want to apply the party politics of a hegemonic proletarian party to a small Westoid communist party full of whoevers? I mean, even then cadre parties still were proven superior to "radical political organization IRL", lmao, because Lenin's party thanks to purging (in a sense) was actually united and communist.

Maybe you are mistaking purging as way to maintain the hegemony of correct opinions for retards pushing through idpol nonsense?

>I suggest you to get involved in a party or an union away from the keyboard, and to try to impose such a hardline stance based on this unapologetic view of the history of AES.


Oh bother, must be very fucking hard to listen to what people say. You have all those opinions about freedom and liberty and you just can't shut up about them in front of people whose interests don't include this metaphysical crap

 No.17289


 No.17290

File: 1685025540259.png (616.35 KB, 662x831, 8768765765.png)

>>17236
>Dunayevskaya

 No.17291

>>17289
Leftypol is making Reddit look real good these days

 No.17292


 No.17293

>>17263
It is posted not because people think the USSR succeeded but because it shuts up those crying about authoritarianism.

 No.17294

>>17268
r/europe is that way

 No.17295

Dunayevskaya is just the typical Trot who turned against the USSR the moment it kicked out her man Trotsky. Cunt.

 No.17296

>>17236
Bleak. Can someone reredpill me on socialism in the USSR?


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