[ home / rules / faq ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / siberia / edu / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta / roulette ] [ cytube / wiki / git ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru / zine ]

/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
Name
Options
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)
Join our Matrix Chat <=> IRC: #leftypol on Rizon
[ Return / Go to bottom ]

File: 1687515907991.png (411.48 KB, 700x479, ClipboardImage.png)

 No.18853

For example, did you know that the Gulag myth (the one of forced labor) originated in the 1920s in Finland and Sweden. Soviet lumber industry outperformed the Scandinavians and out-competed it on the European market. They then slandered the Soviet republic.

 No.18854

>>18853
Engels visited New Jersey (USA) later in his life and met the grand uncle of Richard Sorge (Stalins Master Spy)

 No.18855

>>18854
I'm reading some selected letters from M&E. It's actually crazy with how many different people they had connections with.

 No.18856

Marx and Engels supported the US invasion of Mexico

 No.18857

>>18856
is this bait? i feel like this is bait to derail this into some weird aztlan idpol

 No.18858

>>18857
It's not bait, Marx & Engels supported the US invasion of mexico specifically because the american bourgeoisie would be able to better develop the west coast than the mexican bourgeoisie and they would use california as a springboard to spread capital to the pacific thus developing capitalism and hastening worker revolution.
> Or is it perhaps unfortunate that splendid California has been taken away from the lazy Mexicans, who could not do anything with it? That the energetic Yankees by rapid exploitation of the California gold mines will increase the means of circulation, in a few years will concentrate a dense population and extensive trade at the most suitable places on the coast of the Pacific Ocean, create large cities, open up communications by steamship, construct a railway from New York to San Francisco, for the first time really open the Pacific Ocean to civilization, and for the third time in history give the world trade a new direction? The "independence" of a few Spanish Californians and Texans may suffer because of it, in someplaces "justice" and other moral principles may be violated; but what does that matter to such facts of world-historic significance?
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Marx_Articles_from_the_NRZ.pdf
In their time they supported anything that developed capitalism to enable a radical working class, it's why they supported things such as polish and irish national liberation as it would allow a bourgeoisie revolution of production to occur and thus allow class conflict to move to a higher stage, that being of worker vs capitalist. A good text on this is 'Marx on the margins' you can get a free pdf of it on libcom. The same line of thinking was used by lenin in regards to colonial nations but this position is nonsensical in the modern day as every single nation on earth has undergone a bourgeois revolution of production and capitalism has been developed in every country, so remember that whenever you see a retarded stalinist or maoist try to replace marxism with just blatant nationalism.

 No.18859

File: 1687517914893.jpg (1.31 MB, 1284x2236, 6e57eced0f56fa2a39e7f84f1c….jpg)


 No.18860

>>18858
>capitalism has been developed in every country, so remember that whenever you see a retarded stalinist or maoist try to replace marxism with just blatant nationalism.
Uneven development still exists son

 No.18861

>>18860
Competition is an inextricable part of capitalism, noone can change that and an equal share of capital is impossible, some nations will fail in the market and some will win, the purpose of the communist movement is to overcome this competition.

 No.18862

>>18858
>so remember that whenever you see a retarded stalinist or maoist try to replace marxism with just blatant nationalism.
oh. i see what's going on. I hope you re-read those letters on Irish and Polish nationalism and see that Marx had a much broader idea of races and nations and that he really didn't believe you could make away with them that easily. Essentially you're declaring that because there exists a comprador bourgeoisie in a lot of the exploited third world, that there exists a national bourgeoisie.

 No.18863

>>18861
>the purpose of the communist movement is to overcome this competition.
Like the OBOR initiative aims to?

 No.18864

>>18863
Is that a joke?
>>18862
A nation being in a sphere of influence doesn't makes their bourgeoisie disappear

 No.18865

>>18864
>Is that a joke?
It's the literal aim of it stated outright sometimes

 No.18866

>>18865
Please tell me how a economic infrastructure plan abolishes private property?

 No.18867

>>18866
Apologies for the slow response
I was flabbergasted at your question given you'd already answered it earlier
>Competition is an inextricable part of capitalism, noone can change that and an equal share of capital is impossible, some nations will fail in the market and some will win, the purpose of the communist movement is to overcome this competition.

 No.18868

>>18867
How does belt and road get rid of competition in capitalism?

 No.18869

>>18868
By creating conditions

 No.18870

>>18869
What conditions?

 No.18871

>>18864
>A nation being in a sphere of influence doesn't makes their bourgeoisie disappear
There's a qualitative difference between a bourgeoisie set to outright exploit their people so to be seen as the good negro in the eyes of their imperialists; and then there are revolutionaries, like Gadaffi or Sankara which (with all mistakes) showed a different way of development via some sort of state capitalism instead of continuous exploitation. Actually, the USSR was very anti-colonialist in its time, as was the PRC (and is today, as well). The development of the national bourgeoisie will hasten the development of productive forces and turn entire continents into proletarians. The contradictions will intensify. In the final analysis, there can be no withering away of the proletarian state with imperialism still present, and so all up to hitherto existing socialism were simply variants of Lassalle's Prussian socialism and Lenin's post-office socialism. We were wrong, the Lassalle-Bernstein-Kautsky-Bukharinite-Dengist line was correct. We must accept this as now proven fact if we are Marxists.

 No.18872

>>18871
>then there are revolutionaries, like Gadaffi or Sankara which (with all mistakes) showed a different way of development via some sort of state capitalism instead of continuous exploitation
You did not just try to insinuate that fucking gadaffi did not take part in worker exploitation jesus fucking christ

 No.18873

>>18870
I'm tired lass or lad and I really should be doing the reading for the friday reading group >>>/edu/18232

Are you just pretending to be stupid or do I really have to lay it out step by step?

 No.18874

>>18873
I'm trying to see how belt and road can get rid of something that is inextricably connected to capital. Because that is quite literally impossible.

 No.18875

>>18874
Alright, I'll come back to this after I've done the friday reading group work

If I forget hassle me there

 No.18876

File: 1687519943868-0.png (15.06 KB, 226x114, just give me trains.png)

File: 1687519943868-1.png (27.31 KB, 721x141, ClipboardImage.png)

>>18859
came here to say this

>>18858
>construct a railway from New York to San Francisco

 No.18877

>>1507451
>Gaddafi was a committed socialist
He was a literal self proclaimed third wayist
>>1507454
>getting rid of capitalism is antithetical to the development of socialism
I swear to god everyone on this site is horrendously autistic

 No.18878

>>18877
>>replying to anus flag
no u

 No.18879

>>18872
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1882/letters/82_02_07.htm

>An international movement of the proletariat is possible only among independent nations.
>So long as Poland is partitioned and subjugated, therefore, neither a strong socialist party can develop in the country itself, nor can there arise real international intercourse between the proletarian parties in Germany, etc, with other than émigré Poles. Every Polish peasant or worker who wakes up from the general gloom and participates in the common interest, encounters first the fact of national subjugation. This fact is in his way everywhere as the first barrier. To remove it is the basic condition of every healthy and free development. Polish socialists who do not place the liberation of their country at the head of their programme, appear to me as would German socialists who do not demand first and foremost repeal of the socialist law, freedom of the press, association and assembly. In order to be able to fight one needs first a soil to stand on, air, light and space. Otherwise all is idle chatter.

And this
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/letters/84_11_18.htm

>Recently it was officially stated that the Imperial Constitution was not a contract between the princes and the people but only one between the princes and free cities, which could at any time replace the constitution by another. The government organs which laid this down demanded, therefore, that the governments should have the right to overthrow the Imperial Constitution. No Exceptional Law was enacted against them, they were not persecuted. Very well, in the most extreme case we do not demand more for ourselves than is here demanded for the governments.

>The Duke of Cumberland is the legitimate and unquestioned heir to the throne of Brunswick. The right claimed by Cumberland in Brunswick is no other than that by which the King of Prussia is seated in Berlin. Whatever else may be required of Cumberland can only be claimed after he has taken possession of his lawful and legitimate throne.

>But the revolutionary German Imperial Government prevents him from doing so by force. A fresh revolutionary action. What is the position of the parties?

I can't do anything about labor exploitation under Gadaffi. I make no moral claim and neither should you. But you must see that the national-liberal and progressive bourgeoisie is the one which must carry out this liberal revolution. This is a per-requisite for socialism.

 No.18880

>>18875
There is literally no way to get rid of competition in capoital, the very >>18879
>you must see that the national-liberal and progressive bourgeoisie is the one which must carry out this liberal revolution. This is a per-requisite for socialism.
That's literally what i originally said here >>18858 i also pointed out this has already happened in every nation on earth so these strategies are now redundant

 No.18881

>>18880
>There is literally no way to get rid of competition in capoital
That's the point

Anyway join the friday reading group @ >>>/edu/18232

We're reading Engel's Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State

It's a great read

 No.18882

>>18880
> already happened in every nation on earth
I'm not content with this. I told you that there is a qualitative difference between a comprador and national bourgeois. One is progressive while the other is not. The majority of the world is only just now starting actually become a nation-state, due to increased Verkehr inside closed borders and other politicial and economic bodies. The national differences are become obsolete through the increase of Verkehr, the productive forces. Yes yes dengism lole whatever, this is all from the German Ideology before I get accused of dengism.

 No.18883

>>18882
>One is progressive while the other is not
The bourgeoisie are only "progressive" in the sense that they develop capitalism which has already been done in every nation. Sudan one of the least developed nations on earth has a larger urbanised populace than England did when the communist manifesto was published. Capitalism has firmly been established with the worker bourgeoisie class conflict in full effect in even the least developed nations.

 No.18884

>>18883
Dumb take. Just look at Lula compared to Bolsanaro. Or how the increase of intra third world Verkehr also correlates with communists and general labor movements being popular in the west. A global crisis that'll shake the myth of eternal capitalism (as it happened in 1991.) can only happen once the first world becomes too reliant on third world industrial capabilities.

 No.18885

>>18884
>Dumb take
This isn't a take it's a literal fact

 No.18886

>>1507473
I fucking hate because you are like an unconscious buffoon, which has set out with a goal in mind and is finding facts to support it. Literally turning Marx on his head.

>>18885
You as well. You just can't decide in advance that there exists a one size fits all form of economic development and that different historical background also gives different ways of doing capitalism. FFS even Marx contended that the state of the peasant and the Russian peasant commune cannot and mustn't be compared to the west European peasant (which was an ally of the bourgeoisie). The Russian peasant was qualitatively different from the European peasant.

(I'm referring to his letter to Vera Zasulich) https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/zasulich/draft-1.htm

And so today. The capitalism of the Euro-Atlantic and the capitalism of the People's Republic are different, as are all emerging economic capitalistic conglomerations in Africa, Asia, South America. These are the facts. You cannot and should never decide on an outlook in advance. That's idealism.

 No.18887

>>18886
We're not talking about peasants and no matter how "different" the capitalism of these nations are they are all fundamentally the same as in the bourgeoisie owns the means of production and there exists a working class that sells their labour for income and these two classes are in conflict with one another. This exists in every single nation on earth as capitalism has spread world wide. The fact you want to dispute this hard fact is just so you can justify nationalists bourgeoisie competition in which you want to see the lesser nation get a larger share of capital on the market.

 No.18888

>>18886
Let me maybe be even more explicit. Only with developed nation states, can there be win-win economic development between them as nations. Simplifying movement between countries, connecting via infrastructure and joint efforts show that the Other is not the other, but your fellow man in the struggle to build a better world. You must see how this is different from finance capitalism.

 No.18889

>>18887
my fucking god you cannot reduce everything to economic categories, you're literally treating them as holy cows when the point of marxism is not to do that
read the german ideology.

 No.18890

>>18889
>my fucking god you cannot reduce everything to economic categories
Sorry for saying that workers and capitalists exist in capitalism and that they're in conflict with one another

 No.18891

>>18890
Reductionist. Making marxism dogma when it should be the guiding ideology of the proletarians. you do not get marxism. you get the concept of marxism. but you must live marxism every single day to grasp it.

 No.18892

>>18891
>guiding ideology of the proletarians
Sounds like you should read the german ideology honestly lmao

 No.18893

>>18892
📽️📽️📽️

 No.18894

>>1507500
You don't recognize truth. You are discovering more and more of what is true and still improving on it
>the endless process of the deepening of man’s knowledge of the thing, of phenomena, processes, etc., from appearance to essence and from less profound to more profound essence.
as lenin outlined. not some holy Truth. Objectivity is part of petite-bourgeoisie bogochelovek ideology. All facts in bourgeois society and bourgeois facts. Accept objectivity, you accept another holy category and you reinforce the superstructure.

 No.18895

>>1507507
>After all everything is le subjective right?
No you fucking dumbass. I'm telling you that accepting that there is such a thing as the concept of objective is class-colored. Eating glass will still kill me, not because that's objective, but because glass is sharp. When you accept that that is also "objective" you open the door to the following "objective" remarks you often hear
>But money has always existed!
>It may be not optimal, but it is the best we got!
>Capitalism, that's trade, and we've traded since the begging of civilization.
Because even those are "objective" for bourgeois society. You are still thinking in bourgeois categories. The subjective does not exist either. Language shapes thoughts, language is product of class society hence no one's experience is subjective in the broadest sense but a shared experience of the actual economic relations between people.

>Weltgeist as Marx called it however is both of the world and beyond it
there is not such thing as "beyond the world" you fucking idealist.

>dialectical contradiction between the material and immaterial
There is nothing but the material, 'in different forms'. Engels observed so much when he wrote that motion = matter and there isn't one without the other, everything "immaterial" is just a higher form of motion among matter. I can't cite for the life of me but I think it was in Anti-Duhring. Maybe even some letter.

 No.18896

File: 1687525184540-0.png (375.62 KB, 492x788, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1687525184540-1.png (504.02 KB, 525x788, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1687525184540-2.png (810.58 KB, 539x788, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1507530
<Says who, you? I didn’t know you were the arbitrator of what’s real and what’s not. Forgive me mighty poster, it’s so obvious now you’re just so much more euphoric and enlightened than those fascist tankie dirty proles who actually believe in a higher power, like nearly everyone does. Clearly the worldview of the white elite redditor trumps hundreds of thousands of years of cultural development!
Yeah I don’t think so. Also hilarious you claim I’m an idealist when the idea of the universe magically creating itself into existence without an outside force, thus defying physics, is about as idealist as it gets

Incredible. It's like seeing the worst of social-democracy get twisted into some weird narodnik and anarchist synthesis. Read a book, dumbass.

 No.18897

>>1507546
No they don't

 No.18898

>>18853
I can believe this but source?

 No.18899

>>18871
>Lassalle-Bernstein-Kautsky-Bukharinite-Dengist line was correct.
radlib moment

 No.18900

>>18883
Stupid

 No.18901

>>18856
I know Engels did though I don’t know if Marx did. Def possible, both seem to have the same views

 No.18902

>>18853
Yeah many people don't know remember but in Finland during the 20s depression many people from all the sawmills, paper plants, etc. basically people from all lumber-related industries had to go look for work in soviet russia. Propably half the men in this one sawmill town near us had to go there for employment, the growth was so fast they hired foreigners.

 No.18903

>>18853
We all argue about the most based and least based communist leaders in history, but who is the most mediumly based?

 No.18904

>>18853
Wouldn’t this just count as generic corporate-monopoly slander? France claimed similar about Germany and Russia in the coaling industry because both massively out-competed theirs. I don’t see how this is a socialist fact rather than a fact that businesses have always slandered their competitors for monopoly.


Unique IPs: 14
[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / rules / faq ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / siberia / edu / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta / roulette ] [ cytube / wiki / git ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru / zine ]
[ Return / Go to top /