/edu/ - Education

People who say productive forces trump production relations are following their material interests to get rich while they kick the can down the road on transitioning to socialism.

>>18934
My wages in real terms are falling lad or lass yet I firmly declare that in theory productive forces trumps production relations, because a massive quantative increase in productive forces is more determinitive for a qualitative change in production relations In praxis it is the opposite, especially since workers do not control the means of production so cannot demand an increase in the organic composition in capital

>>18934
Material conditions (development of productive forces) determine the possibility of the revolution - if the forces aren't developed to a certain point, then there is no possibility for a revolution. If it happens, then it's doomed unless it is ruled by some revolutionary advance in the productive forces, not because of the (although admirable) zealous work of the revolutionaries. What's wrong with this logic? I'm trying to follow Marx's logic and so far there seems to be some sort of the economic determinism he postulates and the belief in proletariat's exceptional fate and status.

>>18935
And yet, under production relations where the workers do not have control, an increase in the productive forces further concentrates capital ownership, at the same time as conditions for the workers deteriorate and the class relations become further entrenched.
>workers do not control the means of production so cannot demand an increase in the organic composition in capital
Workers control their labor power and can leverage that to make all sorts of demands if they are sufficiently organized and class conscious. The organic composition of capital is and has been (at least indirectly) a significant aspect of labor struggle throughout history, particularly since under capitalist relations of production an intensification of capital in production has been associated with layoffs and increased poverty, whereas under socialist relations the same sort of capital intensification results in freeing up of workers' time without throwing them to the chaos of the labor market. It is therefore the production relations that over-determine the consequences of an increase in productive forces.

>>18936
>Material conditions (development of productive forces) determine the possibility of the revolution
Why did the German revolution fail and the Russian revolution succeed then?

>>18937
Russian revolution failed, just slowly.

>>18933
>but it's not solidarity of serfs that ended the Middle Ages
it wasn't about serfs but about merchants and such

>>18937
You can't say that they truly won.

>>18938
If only they'd liberated Berlin from the literal Nazis the first time around

>>18933
The numerical quantity of the working class is one of the main things that distinguishes it enough from previous class relations and makes it possible for the complete dissolution of class relations wholesale.
>if revolutionary development of society is determined by the fact of productive forces
Also this is ideology, economism. Marxism is material forces + social relations.
>>18935
>yet I firmly declare that in theory productive forces trumps production relations
Good thing scientific socialism doesn't develop by the anecdotal perceptions by some anon dude on leftist politically incorrect then.