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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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File: 1687901025690.png (1.47 MB, 1200x900, 2962.png)

 No.19254

The USSR during the Stalin Period was arguably marked by a general retreat of revolutionary forces in many regards. While some things; including the most progressive constitution in the world at the time; clearly illicit praise and support, it's generally hard to extend this level of support to many other projects. The mass deportation of Volga Germans, the mass deportations and dispossession of the peasantry (as the USSR underwent socialist primitive accumulation), and the eventual illegalization of homosexuality are clear signs that many social forces faced active regression. Obviously, not all of this was Stalin's fault, and the contingent of radical liberals who attempt to pin all of this on him personally are not worth really a minute of our time. However, with that in mind, it seems quite obvious that Stalin, despite his successes, obviously had major underpinnings and failures. And many of them become increasingly hard to support in the face of new archives, leaks, and the such.

China also underwent it's own socialist revolution. Interestingly enough, Stalin pretty clearly helped in this one, backing Mao and giving them access and control of liberated Manchuria, no doubt a respectable deed. After the takeover of China, Mao didn't, despite even harsher circumstances in many cases, participate in a large level of social regression. The Cultural Revolution was a revolution within a revolution, the first of it's kind, and has lasting effects on China to this day. People in China don't revere the emperor's of old and Han Chauvinism, while existent, has generally been under control.

The reason i'm making this thread is because of a recent poll i've seen. People who support Stalin generally point out on how most polls in the former USSR regard him as a hero or one of it's greatest leaders. This doesn't really line up considering how the last Tsar of Russia, Nicholas, is usually rated not too far behind, often beating out Lenin (https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna25691312). It's even more concerning on how the White Army leader Kolchak is also rather popular in these polls (https://tsarnicholas.org/2019/12/08/nicholas-ii-stalin-and-lenin-top-popularity-rating-of-russian-historical-figures/).

So..is it really possible to be rather more critical of Stalin but be more pro-Mao? Mao's contributions to Marxist theory, including Mass Line, still hold alot more relevance then ever in this day and age. I can't say the same for Stalin.

 No.19255

>>19254
image unrelated btw, it looked pretty i thought :)

 No.19256

>>19254
It's silly to engage in great man theory even especially from the left. Stalin was a a (communist) man of his times, and a single party cannot will the masses to become socially conscious. Mao's GPCR was a success then again, China experienced 100 years of foreign occupation and humiliation so throwing out old history was easy. Russia, i.e. the USSR appeased to the Russian population during WW2 via historical continuity of "progressive" and defensive wars waged by tsarist and kingly Russia which had dire consequences.

 No.19257

File: 1687901333932.jpg (78.09 KB, 680x702, 29ator.jpg)

I like staline, but Mow is cool too

 No.19258

>the mass deportations and dispossession of the peasantry (as the USSR underwent socialist primitive accumulation),
The kkkulaks caused the crisis. You are a kulak-lover. You do not account for the class dynamics of anything you write about, really. Your judgements of history have no material basis.

 No.19259

>>19258
the dispossession of the peasantry is a historical necessity THOUGH

 No.19260

>>19259
For the development of capitalism, yeah.

 No.19261

File: 1687903484016.png (795.2 KB, 640x900, ClipboardImage.png)

>>19254
>People who support Stalin generally point out on how most polls in the former USSR regard him as a hero or one of it's greatest leaders. This doesn't really line up considering how the last Tsar of Russia, Nicholas, is usually rated not too far behind, often beating out Lenin

 No.19262

>>19261
TSAR AND SOVIET O7

 No.19263

>>19258
>The kkkulaks caused the crisis. You are a kulak-lover.
Holy shit lmao

 No.19264

Kulaks arent peasants! They were and are the bourgeoisie. As the NEP ended feudal class relations the peasantry stopped existing. From that point forward you had the agricultural workers and agricultural bourgeoisie. Conflating what it means to be a peasant is the exact reason the red scare historical revisionist we're able to make it seem like the Bolsheviks went after landless peasants.

 No.19265

You described the 60s New Left

 No.19266

>>19265
how do?

 No.19267

>>19266
many in the new left were very supportive of china during the cultural revolution while not caring for the ussr at all. you can still find strange individuals who profess to hate stalin and accuse him of being a kkkolonial settler (re: siberians usually) while loving mao. i assume it's just third worldist aversion to 'boring european' revolutionaries.

 No.19268

almost but im stalin ambivalent and pro-mao most days, pro-stalin and pro-pro-mao after a few drinks. stalin is basically equivelant to lincoln & caesar, which is either a simple matter of history absolving him or a matter of him being worth a cheers depending on whether or not its happy hour

 No.19269

File: 1687926890829.png (345.4 KB, 604x453, 1685288748661.png)

>>19254
>So..is it really possible to be rather more critical of Stalin but be more pro-Mao? Mao's contributions to Marxist theory, including Mass Line, still hold alot more relevance then ever in this day and age. I can't say the same for Stalin.

I'll chuck in my two cents. Again, like i said, Stalin was a mid revolutionary and there's plenty to be critical of- but the question boils down to was Stalin an active participant in the governance of the USSR and used mass influence (if he had any) to steer it, or was it the fault of the USSR as a whole due to how it was governed more or less collectively.
Stalin is probably one of the most mischaracterised socialist figures in all of history- he's either seen as a man who did nothing wrong or a iron fisted tyrant. There's no inbetween or nuance- you're either forced to hate him or love him, and either praising him or critcising him lands you in hot water.

On one hand, some people call Stalin a theorylet, others called him a traitor to the international socialist cause (which was more of a decision to embrace realpolitik for better or worse), but without a doubt his policies (at least for the time) were a continuation of Lenins economic model and he did have plans to introduce more democratic reforms to soviet collectivisation, and was more or less a net-benefit for the Russian people. That's not getting into the fact that the man lead a country to see victory over one of the most deadliest embodiements of fascism we have yet to see surpassed.

The problem is, is that the USSR didn't necessarily enact said democratic reforms and they wound up being co-opted by beauraucrats. So as a result, much like Robespierre, Stalin is often mischaracterised as being an active law maker and decision maker to the soviet unions less than favourable policies- ranging from ethnic deportation to homophobic laws- as opposed to someone who was more than likely complicit, to him leaving other communists for dead and choosing to support liberal bourgoise republicans or leaving other communists for right wing forces to appease the allies.

I think one anon said it best- if Stalin was purged and someone else took his place- that other person would have also likely have shared the same fate as Stalin- being chracterised as "le ebil dictator who killed millions".

In regards to Stalin being held in high reverence in the same line as Nicholas the II however, I don't really see how this is a surprise.
Socialist figures have always been co-opted by the ruling class in order to co-opt them to exercise propagandistic control.

Martin Luther King Jr. was a socialist, and yet conservatives co-opt him by saying he was an advocate of non-violence.

Nestor Makhno despite being an anarcho-communist is co-opted by Ukranian nationalists and far right wing groups- despite the fact that he would have likely shot them himself.

Che Guevara, Albert Einstein, Tupac Shakur, Charlie Chaplin, Nelson Mandela and of course as you mentioned Joseph Stalin are all products of this- whether you choose to praise them or criticise them i'd argue is irrelevent.

Stalin's thought and governance died in 20th century alongside the Soviet Union. Most folks who post here are usually in western countries with a handful of lads from Asia- but even then we don't live in countries with an existing peasantry, we don't live in a land where are de-industrialised, and I think most of us are smart enough to not apply 20th century policies to 21st century material conditions.

tl;dr
Stalin is more or less irrelevant to current 21st century conditions- but that doesn't mean that we have to dismiss him outright. He had his time in the sun, and now that sun has set.
Don't focus on could have or should have been, focus on what is.

 No.19270

>>19254
>The mass deportation of Volga Germans, the mass deportations and dispossession of the peasantry (as the USSR underwent socialist primitive accumulation)

were these "other projects" intended as steps towards socialism or regrettable decisions that they thought were necessary to win a war?

>China also underwent it's own socialist revolution. The Cultural Revolution was a revolution within a revolution


China had a civil war and cultural revolution 17 years later during peacetime. Russia had a civil war then was invaded and 17 years later was 1933 the year Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany. Do you think that it was a mistake to double down on industry to produce defense and that they should have instead had a cultural revolution?

 No.19271

>>19269
>others called him a traitor to the international socialist cause (which was more of a decision to embrace realpolitik for better or worse)

how is it 'realpolitik' to abandon the international movement when the usa was still putting all their effort into propping up fascists, killing communists, etc

seems like the cia believed in their system more than stalin believed in his

 No.19272

>>19254
>>19255
The source for the image is a clothing design for the opera Le Coq d'Or by russian avant-garde painter Natalia Goncharova fyi

 No.19273

>>19271
Stalin was there when the drive to save Rosa failed so was Trotsky

There's a reason Stalin warned what would happen if the Soviet Union fell and tried to make it a bastion and also a reason some trots reading Lenin kept the Burger Reich busy in the Middle East while China rose in a way that Chinese strategists could calculate precisely this is documented how long they had while the ontological evil was distracted

At this point if I saw a trot torturing a squirrel I'd assume the squirrel deserved it in some wierd trot 12 dimensional chess so I wouldn't interfere and go down a bottle of grog to forget I ever saw it

 No.19274

>>19273
But Stalin didn't do shit when Greece tried to go communist and let them all get massacred.

 No.19275

>>19274
Yes
So my question here would be how would you behave in Stalin's position the Anglos are psychos

I'd have sent the red army in personally
but that's just me and I wasn't there

Tito supported them, and Yugoslavia shares a border with Greece

One would have thought that would be enough

From this I can infer something, I'm not sure exactly what yet but I'll be thinking about it

 No.19276

>>19275
Well Yugoslavia isn't the USSR.

 No.19277

>>19276
Still communists should have enough popular support that they should be able to win a civil war when they have a neighboring state flooding guns into their hands

In fact the communists in Greece were supposedly very popular and still are today

There is clearly a missing piece in this jigsaw puzzle ''comrade'"

 No.19278

>>19258
>be marxist
>all history is the history of class struggle
>wtf the enemy class fights back?!?!? who could've seen that coming?

 No.19279

If you praise Mao yet slander Stalin in the same breath then you’re only interested in communism because it’s hip and cool among your friends, not out of any genuine conviction

 No.19280

>>19278
No shit, retard. That is what I explained to op.

 No.19281

File: 1687951147165.png (1.99 MB, 1280x720, ClipboardImage.png)

>>19254
Lol everything you said is backwards. I think Mao is much more open to criticism for how they conducted their revolution and all the misguided efforts(backyard smelting? WTF?)

>People in China don't revere the emperor's of old and Han Chauvinism, while existent, has generally been under control.

Sure the Romanov thing made a come back after 1990 with the Orthodox church, but still, I think Chinese overall are more in reverence of their feudal history.

 No.19282

>>19280
the point is stalin was at fault for not seeing it coming

 No.19283

>>19254
>general retreat of revolutionary forces in many regards
Didn't happen.
>the mass deportations and dispossession of the peasantry
Didn't happen.

 No.19284

File: 1687976291154.jpg (69.75 KB, 791x616, 1686938703394.jpg)

>>19254
>The reason i'm making this thread is because of a recent poll i've seen. People who support Stalin generally point out on how most polls in the former USSR regard him as a hero or one of it's greatest leaders. This doesn't really line up considering how the last Tsar of Russia, Nicholas, is usually rated not too far behind, often beating out Lenin (https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna25691312). It's even more concerning on how the White Army leader Kolchak is also rather popular in these polls (https://tsarnicholas.org/2019/12/08/nicholas-ii-stalin-and-lenin-top-popularity-rating-of-russian-historical-figures/).

Also this is bullshit.

China is still governed by communists, meanwhile Russia is capitalist and YET STILL Lenin and Stalin are hugely popular, what does that say?

Even with all the worship of cretins like Kolchak, Bolsheviks are still more popular.

 No.19285

>>19254
>People in China don't revere the emperor's of old
I think that some old military strategists are popular but I don't know how much
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu#Worship_of_Guan_Yu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Liang#Worship_of_Zhuge_Liang

>popular in these polls

Do you have a comparable one for China that has people like Mao along side Confucius and Sun Yat Sen?

 No.19286

>>19277
The greek communists controlled 90% of the country when the british arrived in Athens to bring back the exiled monarchist government. They were armed and popular. But someone told the greek communists to be accomodating to the british and the exiles and trust them to form some coalition government including the communists, and then someone told them to lay down and turn in all their arms and demobilise. And then cheer on the persecution and murder of those communists who called out this foolishness and refused to surrender. And then when the anglos opened fire on the crowds in syntagama square, and the monarchist government restored the nazi collaborationist security battalions and unleashed them on the greek masses in a period of brutal anti-communist white terror, the greek communists let themselves meekly get slaughtered for weeks before deciding to at a point of being gravely weakened and disarmed to escape into the mountains and try to fight back from there. No amount of Yugoslav guns could've saved them from there. The fact is the greek communists handed greece back to reaction on a platter at someone's insistence.
That someone is your missing jigsaw piece.

 No.19287

>>19285
At the moment, no, I can't really find any. I can find plenty on China's international popularity; which, while fluctuated, seems still relatively positive overall in many aspects; but not a ton of comparisons on leaders.

>>19284

>Russia is capitalist and YET STILL Lenin and Stalin are hugely popular, what does that say


That maybe the USSR in many regards was not the expression of a socialist experiment, but one built on both Great Russian Chauvinism?

>>19270

>were these "other projects" intended as steps towards socialism or regrettable decisions that they thought were necessary to win a war?


Refer to image.

>>19272

thanks :)

 No.19288

File: 1687982120329.jpg (280.59 KB, 566x581, glow2.jpg)

>The USSR during the Stalin Period was arguably marked by a general retreat of revolutionary forces in many regards. While some things; including the most progressive constitution in the world at the time; clearly illicit praise and support, it's generally hard to extend this level of support to many other projects. The mass deportation of Volga Germans, the mass deportations and dispossession of the peasantry (as the USSR underwent socialist primitive accumulation), and the eventual illegalization of homosexuality are clear signs that many social forces faced active regression. Obviously, not all of this was Stalin's fault, and the contingent of radical liberals who attempt to pin all of this on him personally are not worth really a minute of our time. However, with that in mind, it seems quite obvious that Stalin, despite his successes, obviously had major underpinnings and failures. And many of them become increasingly hard to support in the face of new archives, leaks, and the such.

>China also underwent it's own socialist revolution. Interestingly enough, Stalin pretty clearly helped in this one, backing Mao and giving them access and control of liberated Manchuria, no doubt a respectable deed. After the takeover of China, Mao didn't, despite even harsher circumstances in many cases, participate in a large level of social regression. The Cultural Revolution was a revolution within a revolution, the first of it's kind, and has lasting effects on China to this day. People in China don't revere the emperor's of old and Han Chauvinism, while existent, has generally been under control.


>The reason i'm making this thread is because of a recent poll i've seen. People who support Stalin generally point out on how most polls in the former USSR regard him as a hero or one of it's greatest leaders. This doesn't really line up considering how the last Tsar of Russia, Nicholas, is usually rated not too far behind, often beating out Lenin (https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna25691312). It's even more concerning on how the White Army leader Kolchak is also rather popular in these polls (https://tsarnicholas.org/2019/12/08/nicholas-ii-stalin-and-lenin-top-popularity-rating-of-russian-historical-figures/).


>So..is it really possible to be rather more critical of Stalin but be more pro-Mao? Mao's contributions to Marxist theory, including Mass Line, still hold alot more relevance then ever in this day and age. I can't say the same for Stalin.

 No.19289

File: 1687982436037.jpg (284.18 KB, 1000x667, kat_.jpg)

>>19287
>That maybe the USSR in many regards was not the expression of a socialist experiment, but one built on both Great Russian Chauvinism?

Nah.

For every pipsqueak bourgeois nationalist from Estonia or Georgia crying about Russian communism, there's a Russia nationalist crying that the USSR discriminated against Russians and saying Jews and Latvians ruled them.

Both cannot be correct, therefore both are false. The USSR was built on national equality, but obviously bourgeois cunts won't accept that.

 No.19290

>>19289
>Estonia or Georgia
>bourgeois nationalist

>Russia

>Russia nationalist
Why is nationalism only bad for you if it's bourgeois but if it's in Russia then nationalism le bad?

 No.19291

File: 1687983280318.png (115.37 KB, 1500x1500, 1687560354243.png)

>>19288
everyone i don't like is a glowie and fat: a guide to mental retardation

 No.19292

>>19290
Nationalism is always bourgeois.

 No.19293

>>19282
This is a flawed understanding. The crisis was not caused by The Party's actions. The Party's actions were the logical response to the crisis. The kulakkks had been accumulating land and wealth for years at that point; the crisis/ class tensions were building for years. They were overdue for liquidation.

 No.19294

File: 1688003870010.jpg (46.44 KB, 480x480, 1623198466458.jpg)

>>19271
>how is it 'realpolitik' to abandon the international movement when the usa was still putting all their effort into propping up fascists, killing communists, etc
I can only speculate but I reckon it was for a few reasons
1. The USSR had a habbit of siding with liberal bourgoise nations as opposed to other tendencies- probably out of fear that other tendencies who were critical of the soviet union would lead to more international conflict. Considering Russia had a civil war and countless of internal purges, it's likely this paranoia carried over- espeically since the Anarchists of the FAI drew their inspiration from the Black Army regiment during the Russian civil war.
They probably believed that this would grant them more international leniency and legitimacy and prevent foreign powers from invading them all over again.

2. Considering Russia had been recovering from civil war as well as the second world war, it wouldn't have been great to go to war all over again. Keep in mind, the USSR initially wanted to join NATO and made an attempt before being rejected. This probably stems from the "socialism in one country" policy. Stalin probably had the intention of building up the USSR so it would come from a position of strength to then aid other communist nations and revolutions- but sadly this of course came at the cost of leaving other communists for dead.

This was a dipshit move regardless, as we now see the consequences. The USSRs continued attempts to appease the allies to prevent them from fucking them over came at a horrible cost- in the end they only tried to delay a war with the west- but in the end they only wound up caving in on themselves.

 No.19295

>>19271
This applies more to Mao than Stalin.

 No.19296

>all that shit
libtard

 No.19297

>>19261
Soviet-Tsarist Union.

 No.19298

>>19294
>the USSR initially wanted to join NATO and made an attempt before being rejected
not necessarily true. the 'attempt' (a statement that they would be interested under certain conditions) to join nato stemmed from broader discussions about potential european collective security. i believe molotov knew fully well that, despite nato ostensibly being an alliance for european peace open to anyone, they were in fact just an anti-communist agency. so while the soviets may have supported a restructured treaty, the expression of interest was (at least partially) a way to 'expose' nato, which they essentially did since their rejection was on the grounds of soviet membership being incompatible with its 'democratic and defensive aims.'

 No.19299

>>19261
kek. saved. gonna post it at the next bitch who talks shit about russia
>>19291
literally true though, ultra


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