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'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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File: 1688169518626.jpeg (13.47 KB, 284x177, download.jpeg)

 No.19326

Comments on an "Anti-Capitalist" Riot
Friedrich Engels

These excerpts are from letters written by Engels in the immediate aftermath of the February 1886 "West End Riots". The letter to Laura Lafargue is taken from Engels-Lafargue, Correspondence, Vol.1, 1959. The letters to Bebel are from Marx-Engels, Correspondence, 1846-1895, 1934, although the last two paragraphs from the 15 February letter have been translated from the German original in August Bebels Briefwechsel mit Friedrich Engels, 1965.

To Laura Lafargue, 9 February 1886

Our clever folks of the S[ocial] D[emocratic] Federation scorn to rest on their laurels. Yesterday they must needs interfere in a meeting of the unemployed – who count now by hundreds of thousands – in order to preach La Révolution, revolution in general, and ask the mass to hold up their hands, those who were ready to follow M. Champion wherever he would lead them to – well, to what he does not know himself. Hyndman, who can only overcome his personal cowardice by deafening himself with his own shouts, went on in the same strain.

Of course you know what a meeting at 3pm in Trafalgar Square consists of: masses of the poor devils of the East End who vegetate in the borderland between working class and Lumpenproletariat, and a sufficient admixture of roughs and 'Arrys to leaven the whole into a mass ready for any "lark" up to a wild riot à propos de rien [about nothing].Well, just at the time when this element was getting the upper hand (Kautsky who was there says das eigentliche Meeting war vorbei, die Keilerei ging los und so ging ich weg [the meeting proper was over, the brawling broke out and so I made off]), the wiseacres above named took these roughs in procession through Pall Mall and Piccadilly to Hyde Park for another and a truly revolutionary meeting. But on the road the roughs took matters into their own hands, smashed club windows and shop fronts, plundered first wine stores and bakers' shops, and then some jewellers' shops also, so that in Hyde Park our revolutionary swells had to preach "le calme et la modération"! While they were soft-sawdering, the wrecking and plundering went on outside in Audley St and even as far as Oxford St where at last the police intervened.

The absence of the police shows that the row was wanted, but that Hyndman and Co donnaient dans le piège [fell into the trap] is impardonable and brands them finally as not only helpless fools but also as scamps. They wanted to wash off the disgrace of their electoral manoeuvre, and now they have done an irreparable damage to the movement here.

To make a revolution – and that à propos de rien, when and where they liked – they thought nothing else was required but the paltry tricks sufficient to "boss" an agitation for any vile fad, packed meetings, lying in the press, and then, with five and twenty men secured to back them up, appealing to the masses to "rise" somehow, as best they might, against nobody in particular and everything in general, and trust to luck for the result.

Well, I don't know whether they will get over it so easily this time. I should not wonder if they were arrested before the week is out. English law is very definite in this respect: you may spout as long as you like, so long as nothing follows; but as soon as any "overt acts" of rioting ensue, you are held responsible for them, and many a poor devil of a Chartist, Harney and Jones and others, got two years for less. Besides, n'est pas Louise Michel qui veut [not everyone who wishes can be a Louise Michel].

To August Bebel, 15 February 1886

The Social Democratic Federation which, despite all self-advertising reports, is an extremely weak organisation – containing good elements but led by literary and political adventurers – was brought to the verge of dissolution at the November elections by a stroke of genius on the part of these same leaders. Hyndman (pronounced Heindman) the head of the society, had taken money from the Tories (Conservatives) at the time, and with it put up two Social Democratic candidates in two districts of London. As they had not even got any members in these two constituencies the way they would discredit themselves was to be foreseen (one got 27, the other 32 votes out of 4000-5000 respectively!)….

In the meantime unemployment was increasing more and more. The collapse of England's monopoly on the world market has caused the crisis to continue unbroken since 1878 and to get worse rather than better. The distress, especially in the East End of the city, is appalling. The exceptionally hard winter, since January, added to the boundless indifference of the possessing classes, produced a considerable movement among the unemployed masses.

As usual, political wire-pullers tried to exploit this movement for their own ends. The Conservatives, who had just been superseded in the government, put the responsibility for unemployment on to foreign competition (rightly) and foreign tariffs (for the most part wrongly) and preached "fair trade", i.e. retaliatory tariffs. A workers' organisation also exists which believes mainly in retaliatory tariffs. This organisation summoned the meeting in Trafalgar Square on 8 February. In the meantime the SDF had not been idle either, had already held some small demonstrations and now wanted to utilise this meeting.

Two meetings accordingly took place: the "fair traders" were round the Nelson Column while the SDF people spoke at the north end of the square, from the street opposite the National Gallery, which is about 25 feet above the square. Kautsky, who was there and went away before the row began, told me that the mass of the real workers had been around "fair traders", whilst Hyndman and Co had a mixed audience of people looking for a lark, some of them already merry. If Kautsky, who has hardly been here a year, noticed this, the gentlemen of the Federation must have seen it still more clearly. Nevertheless, when everybody already seemed to be scattering they proceeded to carry out a favourite old idea of Hyndman's, namely a procession of the "unemployed" through Pall Mall, the street of the big political, aristocratic and high-capitalist clubs, the centres of English political intrigue.

The unemployed who followed them in order to hold a fresh meeting in Hyde Park were mostly the types who do not want to work anyhow, hawkers, loafers, police spies, pickpockets. When the aristocrats at the club windows sneered at them they broke the said windows, ditto the shop windows; they looted the wine dealers' shops and immediately set up a consumers' association for the contents in the street, so that in Hyde Park Hyndman and Co had hastily to pocket their bloodthirsty phrases and go in for pacification.

But the thing had now got going. During the procession, during this second little meeting and afterwards, the masses of the Lumpenproletariat, whom Hyndman had taken for the unemployed, streamed through some fashionable streets near by, looted jewellers' and other shops, used the loaves and legs of mutton which they had looted solely to break windows with, and dispersed without meeting any resistance. Only a remnant of them were broken up in Oxford Street by four, say four, policemen….

In addition a prosecution has been brought against Hyndman and Co which is so weak that the intention is that it should come to nothing…. The gentlemen certainly told a lot of tall stories about the social revolution, which, in front of that audience and in the absence of any organised support among the masses, was completely stupid; but I can hardly believe that the government is so foolish as to want to make martyrs of them.

These socialist gentlemen want to conjure up a movement by force and over night, something that here as elsewhere necessarily takes years of work; though it is also the case that, once it is under way and imposed on the masses through historic events, it may develop far more quickly here than on the Continent. But people like these cannot wait, and this leads to childish actions such as we are usually accustomed to seeing only from the anarchists.

To August Bebel, 18 March 1886

As to Hyndman, the way he came out in Trafalgar Square and Hyde Park on 8 February has done infinitely more harm than good. Shouting about revolution, which in France passes off harmlessly as stale stuff, is utter nonsense here among the totally unprepared masses and has the effect of scaring away the proletariat, only exciting the demoralised elements. It absolutely cannot be understood here as anything but a summons to looting, which accordingly followed and has brought discredit which will last a long time here, among the workers too.

As to the point that is has drawn public attention to socialism, you people over in Germany do not know how utterly blunted the public are with regard to such methods after a hundred years of freedom of the press and of assembly and the advertising bound up with them. The first alarm of the bourgeois was certainly very funny and brought in about £40,000 in contributions for the unemployed – in all about £70,000 – but that has already been disposed of and nobody will pay more and the distress remains the same.

What has been achieved – among the bourgeois public – is the identification of socialism with looting, and even though that does not make the matter much worse, still it is certainly no gain to us.

http://www.whatnextjournal.org.uk/Pages/Back/Wnext19/Engels.html

 No.19327

haha riots go brrr

 No.19328

>>19326
>What has been achieved – among the bourgeois public – is the identification of socialism with looting, and even though that does not make the matter much worse, still it is certainly no gain to us.
When our time comes we will make apologies for the terrible optics.

 No.19329


 No.19330

>this leads to childish actions such as we are usually accustomed to seeing only from the anarchists.

Lolll

Another interesting nugget from Engels:

>the real content of the proletarian demand for equality is the demand for the abolition of classes. Any demand for equality which goes beyond that, of necessity passes into absurdity.


It functions as a critique of critical theory intersectionalists. I recommend reading the whole Anti-Dühring. He so thoroughly debunks Eugen Dühring, he gave him a mental breakdown and turned him into proto-/pol/ schizoid.

Late Engels was a very interesting figure. Not only was he defending Marxism in the social democratic and labor movements of the time but he was also updating and refining their theories with the emerging trends of the late 19th global economy.

Michael Roberts has a book titled "Engels 200" where he has an entire chapter devoted to Engels contributions after Marx.

 No.19331

>Now, as regards your plan, it is the circumstances presently prevailing in Germany that are the first consideration. From time to time I get information on the subject direct from Germany and, according to this, the despotism of the police is unrestrained and the government is determined to put a stop to any public agitation by our party, no matter what the pretext for that agitation or under what name it is conducted. The fact that Social Democrats are at the back of it is enough for any meeting to be dispersed, any attempt to have a say in the press smothered and any participant expelled from a locality subject to the state of emergency. The experience of the past six years cannot leave us in any doubt as to that.
>Now I am of the view that the appropriateness, timing and object of a renewed attempt at mass agitation are things we who live abroad are utterly incapable of deciding, and that this must be left entirely to those in Germany who have to endure the pressure there and who know best what is possible and what is impossible. So if you approach Bebel or Liebknecht, and they deliberate the matter there, it would, in my view, be for them to decide the pros and cons, and for us to abide by their decision.
>Things are by no means so bad with the agitation in Germany, even if the bourgeois press suppresses most of what is happening and only now and then lets out an involuntary groan of terror that the Party is gaining ground at a tearing rate instead of losing it.
>The police have opened up a really splendid field for our people: the ever-present and uninterrupted struggle with the police themselves. This is being carried on everywhere and always, with great success and, the best thing about it, with great humour. The police are defeated–and made to look foolish into the bargain. And I consider this struggle the most useful in the circumstances. Above all it keeps the contempt for the enemy alive among our lads. Worse troops could not be sent into the field against us than the German police; even where they have the upper hand they suffer a moral defeat, and confidence in victory is growing among our lads every day. This struggle will bring it about that as soon as the pressure is at last relaxed (and that will happen on the day the dance in Russia begins) we shall no longer count our numbers in hundreds of thousands but in millions. There is a lot of rotten stuff among the so-called leaders but I have unqualified confidence in our masses, and what they lack in revolutionary tradition they are gaining more and more from this little war with the police. And you can say what you like, but we have never seen a proletariat yet which has learnt to act collectively and to march together in so short a time. For this reason, even though nothing appears on the surface, we can, I think, calmly await the moment when the call to arms is given. You will see how they muster!
https://wikirouge.net/texts/en/Letter_to_Johann_Philipp_Becker,_February_14,_1884

 No.19332

>>19331
This writing is from 1884 by the way. The ones this thread are about are from 1886. 2 years later

 No.19333

>>19332
Your quotes relate mostly to social-democratic strategy of the time, but it's pretty clear that Engels had no problem with proletarian mobilizations against the police themselves

 No.19334

>>19326
Engels is absolutely correct. One of the problems with petty black bloc and anarchistic rioting is that they are petty. There is no point to terror and violence unless it is great, socialised, organised and sudden, because petty rioting ia easily repressed. Go big like 1789 at least or go home!

 No.19335

>>19333
Problem is glamorizing lumpenproletariat with no objective goal as explained in engels writing. Which is done often today with people getting excited whenever any type of people get on street regardless of what they accomplish or if they have any type of plan. If is proletariat class who are well organized with a goal of course should be supported

 No.19336

>>19334
Fuck the French "Revolution"
>>19335
There's no need for a goal if collective class consciousness is raised as a result of cop roid-rage

 No.19337

>>19336
Class consciousness isn't raised by random acts of destruction/violence with no goal. It's a free for all with people on street who have no loader or guidance. It's just exciting for people to look at lumpens from outside. Rarely had this led to anything. Riots and protest that have worked had demands they articulated and vocal leaders at minimum. Lumpenproletariat are given immense slack that they were not before and people do not analyze them like before when called the dangerous class

 No.19338

>>19337
Who have no leader*

 No.19339

>>19334
How does one go 'big like 1789' without practice or confidence and etc we gain from rioting and bloc'ing up?

 No.19340

>>19335
>Problem is glamorizing lumpenproletariat
If I had a nickel every time some mf on leftypol dismissed rioters as "lumpens" with zero evidence I could quit my job.
>Which is done often today with people getting excited whenever any type of people get on street regardless of what they accomplish or if they have any type of plan
People get excited because the fact people are angry enough to take to the streets over cuts to social services or police brutality means that there is a potential for radicalization. Everybody is aware that riots alone are impotent, but their presence indicates revolutionary energy that can be directed by an effective vanguard.
>If is proletariat class who are well organized with a goal of course should be supported
That's not how this works. As communists it's OUR job to organize them, educate them about the real cause of their grievances, and help them achieve clear direction. You can't wait around for these things to appear spontaneously, you need to go to the sites of class conflict and make them happen.

 No.19341

>>19337
>Class consciousness isn't raised by random acts of destruction/violence with no goal
That's not the point being made. Here, let me help you since I'm an exceptionally patient person which is probably a bad thing and I should stop posting here: >>19336
Read through "collective class consciousness raised as a result of cop roid-rage"
Read every single word meticulously. Connect them semantically in your head. What do I mean by "as a result" especially in relation to "cop roid-rage" as well as "collective class consciousness"?

 No.19342

>>1520292
Class struggle is when a worker is killed by police then other workers fight with police as a result even if they're not the individual worker that was killed. This is a silly proposition because im a leftypol marxism master (i get angry when women swipe left on me on tinder which is marxism).

 No.19343

Well written

 No.19344

Didn’t we have this exact same thread during the BLM riots, with this same baiting of lumpens?How come you didn’t gripe about rioting during the pension reform or GJ?

 No.19345

>>19344
I think there was one poster that complained about a woman dancing at the pension reform protests, so there's that

 No.19346

Lolwut?

 No.19347

>Lumpen
Just say the N word. We all know that's what you're thinking

 No.19348

>>19329
Lots of stuff from az quotes are fake

 No.19349

>>19328
make no excuses for the terror means the revolutionary terror that comes after an organized and disciplined group has taken control of the real levers of power. Rioting and looting is not organized revolutionary terror, it is a bunch of disorganized people grabbing feverishly at crumbs which have fallen from Porky's table. Engels is right in this letter. Optics do matter, especially at the early stages when you are trying to make inroads with workers and build up an organization. The majority of the workers are from beaten down working class families with children who don't want to be surrounded by childless drunken men in their 20s who want to use vague revolutionary slogans as an excuse to loot, rape, arson, and pillage as a form of ""blowing off steam."" Who could have guessed that the opinions of working class families mattered? Who could have guessed that they don't want to clean up broken glass at their place of employment the day after a riot?

Engels is right. An effective revolution takes years of hard work. Not simply marching with a bunch of random people looking to blow off steam.

 No.19350


 No.19351

File: 1688184204957.png (520.27 KB, 1600x800, thiccrobespierre.png)

>>19336
>Fuck the French "Revolution"
hon hon hon stay mad, Grace

 No.19352

>>19349
Could not have said it better. This hits at the core of issue

 No.19353

File: 1688188738346.png (150.95 KB, 282x266, porky scared.png)

>>19326
>Engels the London porky denounces destruction of porky property in London
Occam's Razor

 No.19354

>>1520395
Lumpen mean rags, not Louis Vuitton and Lacoste

 No.19355

>>19350
Thanks

 No.19356

File: 1688195652908.png (473.87 KB, 1079x1239, ClipboardImage.png)

>>19348
>he hasnt read enough marx to recognize the quote
>he hasnt been around long enough to see it used to justify rioters
>he hasnt even been around long enough to see it regularly posted in this cesspit to defend the george floyd riots against quasi-conservatives who get cold feet about revolution every time poor people start fighting back

You need to go back or start reading, your choice

Pic related, my contribution to the thread. Marx described Louis-Napolean as lumpen-proletariat, do what you will with that. But try to actually fucking read the man before you decide it means Lumpen = Bad you pack of foaming morons


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