No.27846
Just admit that Neil absolutely failed.
He should have stuck to his original concept of Abby being a supporting character and then betraying you halfway through the game when you least expect it rather than his stupid golf scene within the first hour.
Halo fucking 2 had a better humanization of a villain (Arbiter) than TLOU2 and that's not a compliment. In order to create mixed feelings about a character you have to show them carrying out honorable or supportive actions to main characters that people love, BEFORE implementing the betrayal arc. Neil jumped the gun and the entire story suffered for it. And then he rubbed salt in the wounds by making Ellie spare Abby even though seemingly 80% of the player base wanted to kill her by the end regardless.
No.27847
>>27846How would that work? Druckmann stated that he didn’t follow through with that initial introduction due to pacing issues. Besides the way abby was setup as a character would make any betrayal not make any sense context wise since she barely knows who anyone in Jackson was. Abby’s feelings towards Joel’s match Ellie’s towards abby, just some random dude that showed killed her loved ones and just went off somewhere else
No.27850
>>27847That's because Cuckmann is a retarded writer. I can write a better script on toilet paper in 5 minutes than that hack.
Here's a plot outline I thought up in 5 minutes on how I would fix TLOU2:
Abby:
>Still part of the Fireflies>The Fireflies are still active but maintaining a much-reduced presence after the events of the first game. Their goal is still to find a cure, but Abby's personal group of Fireflies also desires revenge for what Joel did to the hospital outpost - this revenge mission is totally unsanctioned, and the Firefly higher ups are unaware of Abby's group’s real objective>The Fireflies, realizing the dangers and the high casualty rates that come from maintaining large standing outposts after Joel's attack, have gone back to their guerilla roots and reorganized themselves into an pseudo-intelligence network with many hidden cells that can act independently, and have sent infiltrators into multiple other towns and factions such as the WLF and the Seraphites in order to keep tabs on everyone so that they can continue to try to search for and to kidnap immune candidates to further their research, in addition to the side benefit of receiving a pre-emptive heads up in case anyone else wants to attack them like Joel did >Abby has successfully infiltrated into Jackson and is keeping tabs on Ellie and Joel by the start of the game>Her cover story is claiming to be a defector from WLF (which will be true as her original assignment was to infiltrate the WLF – not Jackson, which the Fireflies have been ordered to stay away from for fear of provoking another Joel rampage or larger attack) warning Jackson about the WLF's expansionist ambitions and desire to eventually control all of what used to be the United States (which will be false as in this story they will be isolationists instead of yet another generic power-hungry military group) >Abby will be constantly urging Tommy, Maria, and any other Jackson leaders to send scouting missions led by her to Seattle, the HQ of WLF (as she knows the locale and can keep everyone relatively "safe") so that Jackson can keep tabs on and receive an early warning if the WLF decides to attack >She will have successfully befriended Ellie and Ellie's friends, with the goal of subtly playing on Ellie's rebellious teenage nature to her advantage by suggesting that she join her potential scouting mission (which would then also automatically bring in Joel as well, thereby allowing her to isolate them both from Jackson’s support and eventually find a way to kill Joel). Perhaps Dina can also serve unknowingly as one of Abby's biggest advocates, thereby lending an aura of trust to Abby by extension and tricking the player>A staged false flag WLF attack (Abby’s friends – Fireflies who infiltrated the WLF with her and thus have their uniforms and equipment - will RPG some of Jackson’s walls and kill some guards before deliberately dropping some evidence of WLF involvement and fleeing) will kick off the events of the game, as the seemingly imminent threat will grant Abby all the public support she needs to launch her "scout”/retribution expedition which inevitably draws in Ellie, Joel, Dina, and Jesse. Abby still supports the Firefly goal of finding a cure, so her objective throughout the course of the game will be to escort Ellie safely to her Firefly cell who fled back to the WLF, which will help manhandle Ellie to a Firefly safe house near the area for transportation elsewhere. In addition, she will also be trying to figure out how to kill Joel and isolate Ellie’s friends in the process – Abby doesn’t know that Ellie was willing to lay down her life for the cure and has defaulted to assuming that Ellie will have to be coerced. Instead of being some random doctor’s kid, her backstory should place her as another orphan formerly stuck in a quarantine zone by FEDRA (just like Ellie from TLOU1) that Marlene’s Firefly group saved in the past. WLF:
>Contrary to the real game, the WLF will not be expansionist, but isolationist and keeping mostly to themselves>However, like Jackson, they are a guarded community open to trade and limited contact with other groups >Still highly militarized and regimented, yet they remain on amicable/peaceful terms with the Seraphites>Abby’s personal cell of Fireflies have successfully infiltrated into the WLF and are holding positions of relative importance which has allowed them enough discretion to steal weaponry and equipment and fake inventory logs for their brief trip towards and staged assault on Jackson >Isaac is worried about a particularly poor harvest season that the Seraphites recently went through, and believes the coming winter will be harsh unless increased rationing restrictions are implemented – unbeknownst to him, the harvest was actually pretty good, but some new Seraphite diplomats/representatives that are stationed with the WLF believe that they should be doing everything they can to secure better trade deals for their underdeveloped people, and are playing hardball so that they can get better terms for their food in the future (their leaders aren’t aware of this plot and believe that their diplomats are giving the full picture of the harvest, since they understand that any attempt to blackmail the WLF would only lead to increased tensions – and because the Seraphites are trying to avoid the usage of portable radios in order to save foodstuffs from being spent on batteries, so that they can barter for other technology the WLF has. This ambassador group has allowed a small and dissident minority to temporarily hijack their community’s foreign policy – dissenters within the Seraphite leadership circle who disagree with passive acceptance of WLF dominance are also running cover for the diplomats and keeping everyone else in the dark) >Isaac’s command staff supports his plan of rationing (and Abby’s group did as well since they don’t want to see a conflict between the Seraphites/WLF, or people starving), but there are also dissenters within the WLF – defectors from FEDRA with military experience who joined with the WLF early on - who believe that given this new crisis, as well as the projected and consistent population growth of the WLF and Seraphites generating an increasingly burdensome food requirement, that they should just militarily steamroll the Seraphites, and then seize all the Seraphites’ food reserves and stick to rationing permanently, so that everyone can make it through all the coming winters in the future until they find additional agricultural resources. By the time Abby and Ellie's group show up nearby, this group will have seized control and also discover the mysterious trip Abby's Firefly cell made to Jackson, resulting in the capture or flight of Abby's friends. Abby will utilize Ellie's group as an assault force to distract the WLF enough for her friends to successfully flee the location. Seraphites:
>Still religious, but no longer generic cultists – non-pacifist Amish seems like a workable archetype – their religious doctrine instead of revolving around the lack of technology, revolves around exterminating infected and helping each other out – there can be a single throwaway document written by Seraphite NPCs that hints that the higher ups aren’t that devout by noting how their leaders occasionally forget important ceremonies and festivals until they’re reminded to perform one, which would imply that the Seraphite faith was a concoction designed to foster a greater sense of community and trust or something, but no character will actually suggest or voice that line of thought in a cutscene or in gameplay, in order to leave some ambiguity over whether that’s really the case or the leaders are just occasionally too busy>Their lack of widespread modern technology is not because of their religion, but because they do not have the resources or skilled manpower for maintaining manufacturing facilities or carrying out large scale arms production>In exchange for patrolling their own areas, keeping out infected, informing them of strangers and other factions, and trading food to the WLF (they have prime agricultural land that the WLF doesn’t and massive food reserves/storage facilities idk) the WLF trades them guns, body armor, and ammo, as well as important tools such as medicine, tractors, gym equipment, etc. The WLF has secretly handicapped the Seraphites’ military capabilities by only trading a specific type of body armor that cannot block certain high-caliber bullets fired by certain stashed WLF rifles, and provided them with non-armor piercing ammo and weaker guns that can’t get past a fully kitted out standard WLF soldier – the Seraphite leadership is aware of this as they have done their own testing with some recovered and misplaced WLF weaponry and body armor, and this conspiracy has left many in the leadership of the Seraphites very unsettled, although they have decided to sit on their discovery in order to maintain good relations with the WLF instead of informing the rest of their community >The trade terms are slanted in WLF’s favor due to their technical/manufacturing abilities, so the Seraphites are trying to minimize what they need to trade for (such as not bothering to trade food for personal radios) so that they can save resources to trade for truly important things (expensive medicines, backup generators, gas for transportation, some vehicles, etc.) >The Seraphites have also been infiltrated by a Firefly cell just like the WLF, but due to all the weird religious and ceremonial stuff, this Firefly cell is having major difficulties progressing through the ranks or gaining much trust, which is irritating to them as they have already identified two people (Yara and Lev) who are immune. >The Fireflies have already sent one person posing as a former medical researcher/scientist to randomly approach Yara and Lev to ask them to participate in research for a cure (without mentioning the Fireflies being behind the initiative), but Yara and Lev are skeptical since they think that if there really was a vaccine the WLF would be working on it already, and they are not inclined to trust sketchy strangers passing by the area >The Seraphite Firefly cell is thus stuck with trying to figure out some way to provoke a skirmish between the WLF and Seraphites, so that they can steal away Yara and Lev with the few spies they have on the ground during the resulting chaos. Abby and her Firefly cell remain completely unaware that the Seraphites have been infiltrated by a different Firefly cell, since they think that the Firefly leaders wouldn’t waste time trying to place people inside such a weird, religious, and agriculture focused/harmless group. >The Firefly leaders have given the ok for the Seraphite cell to scheme up a way to spirit away Yara and Lev by provoking a conflict with the WLF – Abby’s cell working within the WLF has already reported that they have found no trace of anyone with immunity working for the WLF, so the WLF has been deemed expendable for the cause – Abby’s group will only be warned and told what to do once the skirmish starts, in order to allow the Seraphite Firefly cell full freedom of action – the Fireflies all receive their instructions via special portable shortwave radios that receive a morse code transmission to update them on anything of importance only during a specific hour on a specific day of the week (the rest of the time the radio is turned off and has the battery taken out) – compartmentalization, conspiracy, and paranoia are mandatory for the remaining Firefly leaders after the rampage Joel went on in the last gameEllie + Joel + Friends:
>Ellie should stay ignorant of Joel’s lie until the final confrontation with Abby where she reveals what really happened in the hospital and tells her of all the plots going on. One of the main “twists” of TLOU2 was that Ellie was aware the whole time of what had happened and was already trying to forgive Joel before he got killed. That’s a silly twist because it removed the biggest confrontation leading on from the ending of TLOU1 in favor of sketching an “avenge Joel” tale with no real ambiguity as Ellie has already resolved her bitterness towards Joel. >Keep the flashback of visiting the hospital – however, this time, it’s all cleaned up. The Fireflies, seeing the aftermath of Joel’s rampage, have adapted to the danger of people reacting violently to the implications of their research process, and have laid a false trail of documents in the hospital insisting that they finally gave up and that it’s not technically possible, which Ellie stumbles upon thereby unintentionally reinforcing Joel’s lie.>Joel is all too happy that his lie ends up becoming a truth through Ellie’s random trip and does not bother looking deeper into why the Fireflies gave up. He thus dies near the end of the game without ever confessing to Ellie what really happened. >Joel will be active and alive for most of the game until the start of the second half of the game, whereupon Abby will kill him and flee Ellie’s group just right after the WLF/Seraphite skirmish starts kicking off, and thus the betrayal will hit much harder after many hours of working together and even Abby saving Ellie and her friends multiple times from Infected as well as Bandits and trigger happy WLF & Seraphite patrols. Ellie will pursue Abby for the final half of the game past WLF/Seraphite war zones and opportunist bandit and infected groups until she catches up at the main Firefly safe house in the area. >Upon finally learning the truth, Ellie is shocked into a stupor and seriously starts to consider the offer from Abby to join the Firefly effort for the cure. However, she demands one condition as she is in a position to bargain being the only immune candidate the Fireflies know of so far: Abby must be executed by her own hand to pay for her betrayal of Joel, before she goes along with the Fireflies to a research centre. >Abby’s Firefly cell objects and prepares to kidnap Ellie – and are surprisingly stopped by Abby’s order to stand down>Abby agrees to Ellie’s condition and reveals that her group had kidnapped and stashed away Dina and Jesse at another location during all the chaos to keep them out of the fighting. She confesses that the WLF had never been expansionist and that a third party must have provoked the current war between the Seraphites and WLF for unknown ends. Jackson was never under any threat. However, she tells Ellie that she will have to choose between her revenge and her friends. Abby’s cell is the only group that knows Dina and Jesse’s locations and will not cooperate with rescuing them after she kills Abby. Abby is willing to release Jesse and Dina to guide them back to Jackson, but she will only do so if Ellie chooses to go with her group now to begin traveling to the research centre. >Ellie has been totally outplayed from the start. She lost Joel, her friends are hostages, and if she joins the cure research, she will die without ever obtaining revenge on Abby. She decides that justice for Joel is more important then all other current considerations, darkly mirroring Joel’s decision at the end of TLOU1, and prepares to fight>Everyone is surprised and interrupted by the sudden arrival of the second Firefly cell to the safehouse, who have successfully kidnapped Lev and Yara during the chaos they caused>With two immune subjects in hand, Abby’s group now has no reason to negotiate with Ellie, and Abby’s friends call to execute her (Abby immediately protests and argues against them killing her so callously, stalling them out). Yara and Lev are surprised to learn that the cure research initiative is real and that the Fireflies are involved but despise the Fireflies for having provoked a war and are now refusing to cooperate out of sheer spite. Abby’s cell is also furious with the Seraphite Firefly cell as they had many friends in the WLF who are now being placed at risk. The Seraphites, in addition to setting up many defenses and traps on their territory, had secretly been contacting other groups and holding back some food in reserve so that they could trade for better weaponry than what the WLF was providing, to prepare for the possibility that the WLF would try to forcibly absorb them. According to the Firefly Seraphite infiltrators, the war is predicted by Firefly analysts to be a grinding stalemate with many dead on both sides, instead of the easy steamroll the WLF imagined. This also temporarily helps the Fireflies as these two groups focusing on each other means that they can operate and move around much more freely in the area for the duration of the conflict instead of their agents being forced to constantly dodge Seraphite and WLF outskirt patrols, as the Firefly leaders wish to buy some time to scavenge those areas for materials before the WLF and Seraphites expand yet again and start absorbing more territory.Most of Abby’s group upon being told this information decides to immediately split up to head back towards the WLF to warn the WLF leadership of the danger and to attempt to rally support to bring a quick end to the conflict.
>Unbeknownst to all, the Firefly cell that infiltrated the Seraphites had been under heavy suspicion from the start and after kidnapping Lev and Yara had been secretly tailed by a well-equipped retrieval group>The Seraphites, discovering what they presume to be the headquarters and staff of the kidnapper group, scout out the location before launching a surprise assault which kills off several of Abby’s friends as well as all of the Seraphite infiltrators from the other cell>Unfortunately, the Firefly safe house is in an unsecured area and the lack of WLF or Seraphite patrols has left many infected residing nearby in the surrounding areas. The Seraphite attack starts drawing them in. >Abby, her remaining best friends, and Ellie are all forced to work together to fend off not only the Seraphites but the Infected as well, and in all the confusion Yara and Lev escape back to their comrades. The Seraphites withdraw shortly after recovering Yara and Lev to minimize casualties as they are needed back at home to help fend off the WLF incursion, leaving all the attention of the infected focused on Ellie and Abby’s group. >Abby and Ellie’s group dwindles during the prolonged infected assault until it is just her and Ellie left trying to find a way to evacuate out of the area. Knowing that everything is lost, Abby informs Ellie of Jesse and Dina’s location (a personal safe house much further away that she scouted out and cleared) and gives her a backup battery along with her portable shortwave radio and diary as well as standard issue morse code guide in case Ellie really does want to participate in the cure research and needs to find the Fireflies. She tells Ellie about how Marlene saved her, and Joel murdering her was what had fueled her desire for revenge. Ellie is hit again with an emotional gut punch as she realizes that she’s looking at a reflection of herself, but she has been through too much to back down now. She demands that Abby fulfill the original terms of their negotiation and allow her to kill her before she consents to being used for the cure research while Abby laughs and states that any death Ellie gives her would be kind in comparison to what the infected would do, and that she won’t fight back. Ellie after thinking it over coldly agrees to the deal and shoots her in the leg to handicap her and to distract the oncoming infected before leaving the area while Abby screams in agony and is eventually set upon and eaten by the infected. Epilogue
>3 Months Later>Ellie Dina and Jesse are back in Jackson. Ellie has not told most people the truth of what happened, preferring instead to let the Jackson natives believe that Abby died saving her from an ambush while the WLF was skirmishing with the Seraphites. Ellie told Jackson that the WLF is severely crippled beyond repair due to their war with the Seraphites and can pose no more threat to Jackson or have any ambitions of national conquest. Besides Jesse and Dina, only Tommy and Maria know the full story. It turns out that Abby, after relocating Jesse and Dina to her personal safe house, had merely drugged them with a large enough dose to keep them knocked them out for a day and left a guide on how to get back to Jackson as well as enough supplies for the trip back, believing that they would have eventually left for Jackson when Ellie, Joel, and Abby didn’t return and with a war breaking out nearby. Her negotiating tactic was merely to test Ellie’s conviction to see whether she truly would be willing to lay down her life for others and put her own selfish interests aside, and Ellie’s desire to fight back at the end of the negotiation confirmed to Abby that Ellie, contrary to what she was claiming, did not actually want to die for the cure, hence her hail mary at the end where she passed on all her Firefly equipment to Ellie. >Ellie as predicted has found that she cannot go through with her end of the deal and has finally come to fully understand Joel’s perspective. She destroyed the shortwave radio out of frustration but kept onto Abby’s diary. Ellie is still haunted by the brutal way in which she killed Abby, and after visiting Joel’s grave to pay her regular weekly respects also decides to visit Abby’s grave for the first time, since she had been given a tombstone by the Jackson natives as well. She quietly confesses that she lied to Abby about fulfilling her side of the deal, before leaving the graveyard to continue her life in Jackson as the sun rises. No.27851
N one in this thread is realizing that nobody actually apologized. Abby left Ellie alive twice not because she wanted her alive but out of exhaustion and wanting to leave to somewhere else with the fireflies with lev
Ellie didn’t give up on killing Abby twice because she forgave her for anything. She got exhausted off her own violence and was already dealing with too much going on in Jackson to see killing Abby while she’s in possession of a child as worthwhile
No.27852
>>27851>giving up on vengeance because you are le tiredpoints for originality in this interpretation lol
No.27855
>>27852Didn’t she also get beaten to near death and told to not come after again by both Abby and her wife Dina for her own health?