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 No.28920

Fallout 3 is my favourite Bethesda title to have ever been released and even after beating nearly every dlc I still feel like I haven't truly finished the game with all of it's quests and discovered locations. One thing that hit different about 3 that I didn't feel while playing daggerfall, Skyrim and new Vegas was a proper feeling of scale. All three of those games have larger worlds but they feel emptier to me because their structures are too small or not densely packed together.

Most towns and locations in new Vegas and Skyrim rarely go on past a single room for a building about the height of the player and everything is too far apart in daggerfall for me to appreciate anything in the game world without spamming fast travel, I think Bethesda should stick with their world design choices they made in 3 and apply them to starfields worlds. It would make travelling not just between planets but in them alot more enjoyable - at least for me, if it means there's something to explore through even if it's not entirely interesting.

 No.28926

File: 1687518058189.jpg (59.15 KB, 620x819, 9gurmqe8mmx01.jpg)

>>28920
At least Starfield justifies its fast travel somewhat with the protagonist having a spaceship. No mounts or even vehicles sadly.
https://www.pcgamesn.com/starfield/vehicles

 No.28928

Epic-scale worlds and real-time gameplay are an incoherent combination of design ideas.

 No.28929

>>28928
The "1000 planets" shit could have flied with a strategy game like Stellaris or a space sim like Elite, but an open world sandbox RPG? Its just stupid simply because no way they could flesh them all out (which even Bethesda themselves kind of admitted to).
https://www.pcgamer.com/about-10-of-starfields-1000-planets-have-life-on-them-as-the-game-tries-to-capture-the-magnificent-desolation-of-space-says-todd-howard/

 No.28930

>>28929
ahahahah 990 planets will just be empty? people still will buy this shit, todd is a genius

 No.28931

>>28929
I'd say it makes sense for life to be sparse in a game that's trying to be "grounded" sci-fi but then in the showcase they show your character getting magic psychic powers. Regardless, another giant scope that will end up with the depth of a puddle.

 No.28932

>>28928
But is the epic scale even noticeable or real if you can't traverse it in real time? If not you are basically just looking at isolated points that are effectively the same as discrete levels that have been the norm for most of video games.

 No.28933

>>28932
One big level, why would you want to suffer through that as a player, because it is "modern"? Epic scale means travel takes forever. This can be simulated so it's true in the game world without the player literally suffering though that. In a space game, you can have cryo-sleep and mind uploading to a series of clones as an in-game explanation for travel that takes decades inside the game universe. It's a common movie technique to show the passage of a lot of time as a montage with music lasting a minute or so. A game with a dude on a horse riding from one village to another can do an equivalent thing with a catchy tune playing while a bunch of random opportunities are popping up and your beard is growing one meter per minute.

Yes, I prefer distinct levels + overworld.

 No.28937

File: 1687539128314.png (1.2 MB, 1280x720, ClipboardImage.png)

>>28933
My point was that "epic worlds and real time gameplay don't mix" is kind of the opposite of true. You might not like that design approach (which is fine btw) but on a technical level you can't have that kind of epic open world without also having real-time travel through it (or at least the option to do it).

It's about design goals at the end of the day.

Big open worlds aren't actually realistic of course. They massively compress the space you're in, which goes along with compressing the time. Like how you can see Whiterun from Riverwood in Skyrim and walk there in a few minutes IRL, but much more time passes in the game world. It's all about tradeoffs and which ones fit best for the intended design. Worlds like Skyrim are the way they are because the game is meant to emphasize a wide-open-sandbox approach where you can just go anywhere and do any of the game's content in whatever order you want. Basically an a-la-carte approach. But that means you have to make sacrifices in the realism department, because nobody wants to actually sit there for a realistic amount of time to travel between a medieval town and city. Same as how actually building a realistically sized town or city would not be that conducive to the kind of gameplay Skyrim emphasizes, it would mostly be adding a bunch of filler buildings between the important ones making it take longer to travel between key locations with more NPCs spouting their one line of dialogue as you pass. Daggerfall did this and the result is a world crammed to the gills with filler. The compression of the world is necessary to making it acceptable to play, and finding the exact right balance is a challenge.

Of course, you can forego that balancing act entirely if you just have a different game structure, like the "classic" discreet levels. More recently there's been the "open zone" method getting attention (Mario Odyssey and Sonic Frontiers), although it's older, going back as far as Deus Ex and other immersive sim types. That's potentially a better balance for this kind of open gameplay because it's a lot easier to design a more compartmentalized zone than an entire world where you can just walk from any one place to any other. This could be combined with the other really key feature of these sandbox type of games, which is the seamless travel. We've already got examples of games that do that which aren't open-ended at all, including Metroid and Half-Life (the latter being both very linear and very one-way). Putting the kind of "hidden" loading screens between open zones like what Metroid Prime does can be used to combine open zones with seamless travel, while also adding more of a "rhythm" to the gameplay loop between being more open and more structured. That's probably a better approach from the development perspective too, since fully open world games have become absolute monsters for the development cycle and basically makes them the exclusive domain of AAA developers.

 No.28939

>>28937
A bigger isse with daggerfalls open world design is how small locations are and spread out they're not the size of the map itself


The towns are literally copy-pasted but even worse theyre barely the size of actual towns even by the standards of the middle ages, not to mention the fact that the wilderness has no natural npc and enemy spawn points, roads connecting cities, particularly interesting dungeons with explorable exteriors etc.

Most issues with exploration in daggerfall could be fixed by expandinf the size and number of ingame structures and adding spawn points for NPCs and enemies in the empty space in between

 No.28963

>>28939
yeah but daggerfall is basically procedurally generated. nothing on that map was handcrafted, and to get a realistic scale the cost was making it impossible to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time without fast travel. i know this because i played that game (even if i didn't finish it) and because of the need for fast travel the world barely even feels real because you are fast traveling everywhere and are unlikely to actually manually travel anywhere in that game

at least that is how i remember it, memory may not be accurate


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