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 No.29849

I’ve seen some anons on community forums and mainstream social media sites like Reddit, YouTube or 4chan suggest the story wouldn’t have gotten as much backlash if it started off with Abby and not when players would hate her the most. I don’t believe that’s wrong, but I don’t think the story and the experience would’ve been better as a result.

It was clear on druckmanns end that starting off with Abby right after Jessie gets shot was fully intentional, and was supposed to piss off the player. The entire first half of the game is specifically setup to get you to hate Abby as much as possible, having it suddenly transition to her perspective at such a specific moment would be considered suicidal by any other director if that wasn’t the goal. By having the story start off with Ellie, a character the fan base already connected with and ending off with her resolution with Joel, the story feels more closely connected to her as a character and Abbys impact on her. Letting the game conclude with Ellie stating how she felt about Joel’s actions and then not being able to state what she wanted to do with her relationship with him at the same period when Ellie is moving on with her life past Abby makes it way easier to understand not just why she was so angry, but how she was such in a miserable state of mind well past the death of Joel. It’s not just the fact that Joel died horribly, it’s the fact that he died at a point in her life where she wasn’t able to let him know that she forgave him and wanted to make sure he wasn’t completely abondoned by those that loved him during what were his final days. If the game introduced abbys arc just after that, it wouldn’t have hit right. I wouldn’t have felt as angry, I wouldn’t have as much of an understanding of Ellie as a character, I wouldn’t have been as open to understanding the conditions required for Abby to even go after Joel to start. Obviously the way the game was paced pissed the living shit out of so many players, but I think it was a risk worth taking if it meant getting a new, and in my own opinion, thoughtful and experimental way of concluding a character arc.

 No.29856

File: 1692760987095.jpg (337.74 KB, 1080x1372, 1dd.jpg)

>>29849
The issue is not even much with the order of POV characters but with how much the game scolds you for going the violent route even when you do not. The game pits you against humanized opponents who will plead you to spare them as you defeat them, but at no point there is an option where you could indeed let them go because if you do they will always try to attack you again anyway. Its these various inconsistencies and conflicts between game design decisions, the story and even the story themes themselves that have made TLOU2 a failure in a lot of people's eyes, not just the handling of characters. Very indicative of how disjointed AAA game development is nowadays.

 No.29857

>>29856
That crap annoyed me a lot in Skyrim too. Like yeah sometimes people who yield should try attack you again but not always.

 No.29861

>>29856
It's because video games are often written by people who failed to be screenwriters and have no respect for or interest in this particular medium. They want to have some weighty moral statement about violence but they don't consider how the game design fits into the story. The game part of the game is largely seen as an obstacle to get past in order to get to the story, not a tool for conveying any of the story's content.

It's the same kind of mentality that caused people to heap praise upon Last of Us 1 for "finally" being an "adult" game, because they associate particular aesthetics and presentation with "mature" media, so as soon as you get a "realistic" game with cutscenes presenting like a TV show, suddenly the medium has "matured." And it has literally nothing to do with what makes a video game a video game. You could watch the cutscenes put together on youtube and that's the "game" that people were praising. And that's not even particularly new, Metal Gear Solid was dumping buttloads of cutscenes and exposition for a long time, but those games also made the story and gameplay interact significantly.

They struggle to put any story of consequence in the gameplay itself because that requires some degree of trust in the players or acceptance that some people will miss your special little narrative. The few times that the gameplay is part of the story in games like this, you are being railroaded. Often this is so blatant that the game actually strips down the mechanics so much that you are basically doing slow-motion Quick Time Events. Half Life 2 had already figured out how to unintrusively draw people's attention back in the 00s, but these games still lag behind that progress.

 No.29862

>>29856
What you’re referring to is called ludonarrative dissonance, basically when the gameplay doesn’t match at all with the story. It’s hard to pull this off when your game isn’t designed like under-tale or a Bethesda RPG where the player has the freedom to kill anything they like or not, but also get to experience different outcomes based on what they’re killing. If there was a serious strive on the developers end to address this the games would end up being open world, overconvulted with how they’re written, or super linear like a telltale game. I don’t have much else to say on this, I’m sure the devs realized this all the way back in uncharted but just decided it wasn’t worth the effort to try to rebuild the game around it. Something reinforced with how characters like Ellie are programmed to continue killing characters like Nora or Abby even if the player doesn’t hit square.

 No.29869

>>29862
There is one thing you forgot to mention. Nearly all of the violence in game is optional, there’s only a few encounters with human enemies that actually require the player to kill which consist of the last encounter at hill crest, the chase sequence with Abby in Seattle and at the island, the boss fights at the island between Abby and those two seraphite brutes, and that’s it for what I can list. Every other level in-game is skippable, on difficulties like grounded and survivor it’s even better to just ignore fighting enemies entirely in favour of just running towards the goal of Ellie or Abby. I guess that’s one way to fix this issue without direct changing core components of the game, this doesn’t suddenly mean that there aren’t serious issues with how the game plays out compared to the story since again, doing a pacifist play through is boring on lower difficulties since it’s clear the game wasn’t designed specifically for that, but it helps make the gameplay feel a lot more realistic knowing the player isn’t forced to fight like an 80s action movie protagonist to beat the game. Something I think the team was going for when you consider the cripple system you’d find from fallout, how sparsely spread out the infected, and human enemies are compared to other games in general or how hard it is to find any resources, especially on grounded where you’ll barely have a full mag for an entire day.

 No.29895

>>29857
Yeah Bethesda games are pretty bad about this kind of stuff. At best if you are playing a character with Illusion skill you can cast Fear on NPCs and watch them run away or they'll extremely rarely do it when beaten down to an inch, but making an NPC yield unconditionally is pretty much impossible in vanilla at least.
>>29862
Stealthy pacifist walkthroughs are an option, but like I said it barely affects the storytelling here in any way and it makes the dissonance even more jarring because it still acts out as if you fought your way through. Contrast this for example with Deus Ex, where taking the stealth/pacifist route during levels opened different story paths, affected the dialogue, character disposition etc. If it did affect the storytelling and its outcomes then I would commend it, but as it is the point of the mechanic here in this context falls flat beyond letting you not waste precious resources by avoiding combat.

 No.29896

>>29895
I feel like the issue extends to how the game was set up. ND did a lot of things with uncharted and the last of us, but one thing that was consistent was how linear their games are. It’s not just the fact that we’re playing a story based game, but a series focusing specifically on one or a few protagonists. Other story based games like dying light, gta, what you mentioned, deus ex, undertale, and more can have branches to their stories, but that only works because their isn’t one character in focus for multiple games. If NDs major entries had that kind of non linearity to their stories to fix the dissonance, it would be a lot harder to write a coherent storyline between games without constant retconning, or plots that converge towards the same outcome regardless of the players actual inputs with slight modifications to dialogue(cough cough telltale)

 No.29898

File: 1692808762112.png (14.83 KB, 770x312, F1kkuobWwAEpfTz.png)

It's funny how the game getting leaked and people seething over Abby completely overshadowed Druckmann writing the story as some allegory to the Israel-Palestine conflict.

 No.29899

>>29898
>Oh, man, if I could just push a button and kill all these people that committed this horrible act, I would make them feel the same pain that they inflicted on these people.
saying this specifically in reference to Palestinians lynching IDF soldiers is just about peak irony, wow

 No.29900

>>29899
Imagine if he was referring to the Israelis from a Palestinian perspective


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