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/tech/ - Technology

"Technology reveals the active relation of man to nature" - Karl Marx
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File: 1696520881937.jpg (431.55 KB, 1920x1784, ibm_pc_5150-273085537.jpg)

 No.21825

Has anybody else thought about how personal computers might just actually suck? What is the personal computer, really? Is it not just "the car" of all the vast potentials computer science offered us? I'm not saying that personal computers aren't impressive and highly practical. What I'm saying is that as soon as our first computer engineers thought of something that could be mass produced and sold to the individual consumer, they said "bingo!" and stopped dreaming.
Do you know what I mean? I'm kind of trying to start a research proect investigating this question. I know a little about early visions of cyberspace compared to what the internet became, and the early vision of hypertext. If anyone has any reading material on what computer scientists were dreaming of versus what actually ended up happening, please send them my way. I might try to write a book about this.

 No.21826

>>21825
the technology restrains the form

 No.21827

Watch Serial Experiments Lain

 No.21828

File: 1696523524497.jpg (158.42 KB, 800x568, 1977Computers.jpg)

Well Tandy didn't expect to sell much of the TRS-80 (and the Model I was horrible due to how many corners Tandy cut), the PET is like a prototype of PC where even with the later models like the 4000 and 8000 series they lacked a real operating system where even the simple act of copying a file across two devices was much harder then it needed to be. The Apple ][ was actually pretty solid but then it was Woz's pet project that he built for himself and he didn't have to make as many compromises. Atari 800 was also pretty good but the company went down in flames and was relegated as a games machine when Jack Tramiel took it over (more so then the Atari ST), The IBM 5150 was very mediocre where even the TRS-80 Model 16 (came out a few months later) can run circles around it in performance and expandability.

What really held PCs back was Microsoft and the Mac, the Mac was the slowest Motorola 68k computer by far to the point a stock Atari ST can emulate a Mac Plus at full speed while IBM Clones were still selling their clone of CP/M (MS-Dos) throughout the 80s while the Amiga borrowed the kernel design of TRIPOS for minis with a desktop close to what Unix desktops were doing at the time. The engineers of Commodore wanted to bring the power of Unix workstations at the time to the home with them wanting to work on chipsets to get them closer to what a Sparc Station could do yet watered down for the consumer market. Yet today you can pretty much that with consumer grade hardware and Linux so in a way we achieved that goal (at those of us running modern Linux rigs).

 No.21829

The alternative would be what? Something like public access computers where any personally-specific things are stored in The Cloud somewhere? That is basically what tech porky wants to have. Personal computers make sense because individuals have different uses for them. There are different needs for hardware and software. Having to download or stream data to a computer to use it is pretty pointless and mainly a scheme for data collection.

 No.21832

>>21829
Even here the problem isn't the centralization, tech, or cloud, but porky.

 No.21833

>>21832
Centralization and the cloud are the issue there. They are for most purposes wasting bandwidth transmiting data repeatedly that could just be stored locally.

 No.21835

>>21833
Could be with some use cases, but in when one takes into account what most people use computers for, then cloud based solutions aren't that bad. That's why Chromebooks are a thing because for most people computer is the browser.

 No.21836

>>21835
For the average use case a time shared system is overkill. Even a computer from the early 90s like the Amiga 1200 and Atari Falcon can do the vast majority of what your average normie wants (basic word processing, spread sheets, image manipulation/creation and browse the Internet (if the Internet stayed light weight). Administrators of time share system then and now are nosy jerks that delete your data for arbitrary rules and even if you don't run fowl their terms of service they are not legally liable for data loss according to the same terms. So if your data is lost on their servers all you are going to get from Google is "sorry".

 No.21837

its just a cheap, accessible, standardized form of puter

 No.21838

>>21829
>>21832
>>21833
>>21835
>>21836
>>21837
Commodity fetishism in action.
I'm saying: think beyond the form. Think beyond monitor, keyboard, mouse, hard drive, LAN.

 No.21839

File: 1696552258675-0.jpg (492.16 KB, 1024x768, Sun-Sparcstation-LX.jpg)

File: 1696552258675-1.png (1.43 MB, 1065x763, SGI-Indy.png)

File: 1696552258675-2.png (2.81 KB, 500x505, dnd (PLATO).png)

>>21838
The issue is that the client can handle normal tasks perfectly fine on its own and physics means you can't get around latency when the host is physically far away from client (this is why where cache is placed on the CPU is currently a big factor in performance). We also moved to personal computers from time share computers so we can have full control of the hardware and not have ones task being pushed to the end of the queue because the system admin decided we are less important or having them deleting your shit like university admins did to the early RPGs on their systems in the 1970s because they thought fun and computers shouldn't mix.
I mean right now you can have a 3D workstation with consumer grade hardware and your talking about going back to the old days of something like a VAX or IBM System 360 but modernized with a web wrapping.

 No.21840

>>21825
They've iterated on these machines for decades and made them smaller and smaller to the point of cell phones and smart watches. Hard to say where else they could've gone. It seems all the forms have been perfected to the point where I don't even know what your alternative vision is.

 No.21842

>>21838
computers are computers
the form they come in doesn't have much bearing on their use aside from convenience peripherals like a monitor or mouse, etc as well as scale i.e. compared to a supercomputer

 No.21843

>>21825
it sucks on purpose, because anything better would inevitably bring forward socialism, they make the technology worse on purpose because to make it better is inherently socialistic

 No.21844

>>21840
>It seems all the forms have been perfected to the point where I don't even know what your alternative vision is.
computers for blind people, computers for deaf people, computers for people without hands, computers designed with flexibility in mind so that the users can decide what computing means for themselves by actively creating it, because the means of software production have been made available to the masses in a way never before attempted, the exact kind of computer they work so hard to keep us away from, because it doesnt let them profit, it makes them useless

 No.21845

>>21844
>blind
there are apps for that
>deaf
deaf people already use computers
>handless/disabled
yes, there are PCs which track vision
>build my own PC
you can, it's possible
>in a way nobody would think of but me because I'm a special snowflake
c'mon bro, really?

If you don't want to pay for something, pirate it.

If you don't want ads, get an adblocker

The masses have PCs and smartphones, and are learning how to make tech work for them.

The obstacles of being a smartphone/PC addict are realer than whatever nonsense you're imagining, because people can waste time without ever paying for anything. In this sense that's all they waste and they're worse off for losing their time to the shiny toy which is the computer. Even right now we are wasting time replying to each other. And it has cost me $0.00

 No.21848

>>21843
I see it more that capitalists lack the structure and motive to make anything better. The Unix wars showed capitalists can't work together unless under the direction of a cartel (Wintel) or by simply capturing the standards of what people do freely (enterprise Linux distros). If the PC industry was still run by the electronic engineers of the late 70s that simply wanted a computer at home they could play with PCs would be far more open and useful but that was a unstable state for a market under capitalism, once it was clear there was real money to be made the industry got taken over by capitalists proper.

 No.22110

File: 1698654943725.png (121.47 KB, 1920x1920, Multics-logo.svg.png)

>>21825
There have been roughly 5 waves of form factors of computers:

1. mainframes
the operating systems written for mainframes tended to be extremely expansive and general, and thoroughly engineered from first principles. they also provided tons of facilities for deduplicating effort between programs. this is exemplified by multics, where there is no distinction between memory pages and disk files, and where since all memory regions (called segments) were secured with a sophisticated ACL-based permission system, they could be shared between programs and users. the multics people basically tried as hard as possible to save on programmer labor. they defined standard interfaces between all programming languages on the system, and also, made all languages linkable to the shell, thus making all libraries on the system callable commands. due to the memory access being protected by the hardware, it was possible to write the kernel in the same way as the rest of the operating system, thus there was not a distinction between kernel mode and user mode like in modern operating systems. the kernel was just another library that implemented the kernel's functionality. this makes it similar to the modern notion of an exokernel, but preceding it by several decades. multics was so resilient to hardware failure that it was possible to split the mainframe into two computers while it was still running, like a biological cell dividing, by removing hardware pieces and reassembling them elsewhere. it even had a graphics system, though one which is quite alien to the normal understanding of it. basically the graphics system more resembled a CAD program than anything else, but this was combined with a standardized ontology or inventory which was shared between programs. thus for example if you were to define a model such as a teapot, then there would be one "teapot" object on the system shared between all programs, instead of being created and recreated over and over again by different programs. here again you can see the great attention paid to labor saving for programmers. multics had a vision of computing becoming a public utility, charged at a flat rate of computing time. it is very obvious to see the socialist implications of this line of thinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q07PhW5sCEk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8Bay04lCxs
https://multicians.org/features.html

2. minicomputers
our society was not set up to facilitate public access to these mainframes, and they were jealously guarded inside military installations, universities, and huge corporations. so along came minicomputers, which costed only tens of thousands of dollars instead of millions. minicomputers were absolute slow underpowered pieces of shit compared to mainframes, so they couldn't possibly run mainframe operating systems, and their design was much more primitive. ken thompson and dennis ritchie needed something to run on their PDP-7 so they started copying a lot of the design ideas of multics but stripping out many of the features. this inherently made the OS much harder to program and use, and less secure and resilient. most of the labor-saving facilities of multics were ripped out, like the memory object sharing capabilities, which meant every coder for the system had to re-code the same solutions to the same problems over and over, instead of having them baked into the OS. some problems, (like error recovery), were just never solved at all, and all you could get were crash dumps. the original unix was very primitive, resembling a more elaborate DOS. minicomputers eventually became fast enough to run the original mainframe OSes, but by that point, minicomputer OSes had become hegemonic (and also there were difficulties with hardware compatibility and software licensing). so instead, they started adding features to the minicomputer OSes to make them somewhat more mainframe-like, like adding dynamic linking, demand paging, resilient filesystems, and some attempts at clustering facilities, but it was always a shitty and incomplete reconstruction, as they were hacks piled on top of an insufficient base, instead of the result of a systematic design. various projects attempted to fix many of the flaws of unix due to so many features being ripped out of its design, such as Plan 9 and GNU Hurd, but none of them gained traction because the standard unix design became hegemonic. unix themselves had a collectivist vision, they called it "communal computing". It was kind of a cross between the labor-saving desires of multics programmers and proto-free software sentiments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvDZLjaCJuw
https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf

3. microcomputers/PCs
these only costed around a thousand dollars instead of tens of thousands. these were even shittier than minicomputers, glorified calculators at first, and then developed into DOS and early windows versions. these OSes were even again shittier than minicomputer OSes, basically a thin layer to expose devices to an app with no multiplexing or security or anything, or much of a programming environment. that windows descends from a single-user microcomputer OS and linux is a clone of a minicomputer OS (unix) is one of the most major reasons why windows is shittier than linux. all the crap windows shoveled on top of a shitty base to compete with unix-like OSes made it break frequently and made it insecure and bloated, which i'm sure you've all experienced. you ever wonder why windows updates require app and system restarts and linux doesn't? it's because on linux, you can replace a file, and the running program will continue to use the original version of the file. thus you don't need to restart it. this is only possible if you can refer to a file by two different handles (called inodes), and windows never got this feature because it descends from a shitty primitive dos-like system where the feature was never added. and now they can't fix the issue, because that would break compatibility with everything. this generation was the epitome of individualism in computing.

4. smartphones
these follow the same pattern. they started out as more primitive and slow than microcomputers. when the G1 came out, a new OS had to be written for it (android) because running linux or windows on it was a non-starter. these dispensed with ALL multi-user capabilities, all programming facilities (it is not possible to modify the OS or applications without cross-compiling and flashing it), etc. they basically became a thin client for cloud services. it is not possible to do any real productivity work on these OSes. these are basically toys or "content consumption devices". you don't have root permission by default, you don't have a host of networking services (NFS is specifically blocked out of the kernel by default by google), you can't control the services running on the device, you can't control the arrangement of the windows by default, either one or two apps onscreen only. you have to hack the thing to change the software, which breaks hardware-based attestation, which breaks apps. this is not even individualist. you have no control over your device. you can't change the OS from android to something else. half the system breaks if you stop using google services. this is computing as enslavement. but we're stuck with them due to market inertia and entrenched interests of manufacturers. smartphones at this point, right now, are powerful enough to run linux. the problem is, microcomputers eventually gained a host of standard interfaces like ACPI and BIOS which made it trivial to move OSes from machine to machine. in an attempt to make smartphones as simple as possible, the manufacturers ripped all of that out. so for a phone, the kernel must be custom-built for THAT type of phone, because the kernel image must be given a thing called a device tree that tells it how the phone's hardware works. this makes porting linux to smartphones practically impossible because all the information on hardware layout is secret and all the drivers are proprietary. it's effectively like porting coreboot to a microcomputer and replacing the BIOS, it's that difficult. you could rebuild the kernel with those drivers, but you can't upgrade that kernel from the version the drivers were compiled for. for linux to flourish on smartphones, they either need a BIOS, like minicomputers, or all the device trees and drivers for them need to be made publicly available, and neither of those options are in the interests of the companies who make the software or hardware for them.

5. IoT/smart gadgets
these are even more primitive than smartphones, and often incapable of running linux, and run something like fiwix instead. always embedded. these are glorified appliances, they're so primitive. installing new apps is usually not an option. changing them involves building a whole OS payload and then finding points on the board to solder in a programmer chip to flash it. (both of which are just straight up reverse engineering). botnet. usually no control over the relationship the cloud has with your data.

the pattern of every new generation of computers is:
1. some of the best OSes ever written were among the first
2. a new computer is released which is way smaller and cheaper, but can't run the last generation's OSes because they're too shitty
3. the new generations of computers become powerful enough to run the last generation's OSes, but don't, because the new OSes written for them have captured the market. since the new OSes are shittier than last gen's, they try to cope for this by retrofitting some features from last-gen OSes in a shitty way
4. computing as a whole is now in a far shittier state.
5. repeat. GOTO 2

 No.22111

The computer mouse is a dumb idea for text processing. Lots of pointless switching between keyboard and mouse. Check out the keyboard of the Canon Cat by Jef (yes one f) Raskin. Raskin also came up with the concept of a zoomable text interface, but he died before doing much with that.

 No.22114

>>22111
>Lots of pointless switching between keyboard and mouse.
There are solutions to that… https://keymouse.com/


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