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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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 No.14720[View All]

Nearly every successful socialist revolution has happened in an underdeveloped nation in the global periphery, usually very early in that place's capitalist development. While these revolutionary projects have proved incredibly successful at raising living standards and quality of life and modernizing their nations, most successful socialist projects have a habit of reverting through revisionism into some level of capitalist development. Those who remain committed to more Marxist-Leninist economic practices often become incredibly isolationist due to imperialist pressure.

Similarly, working class movements, things like trade unions and communist parties, were vastly more successful in the imperial core in the early stage of capitalist development. Stuff like the Paris Commune or the 1877 St. Louis General Strike would be nearly impossible today with the state of working class organization. Post-war modernization became incredibly efficient at decimating union membership and demonizing and coopting social movements. Besides, if you get a guy organizing like Lenin in a modern state they'll just kill you or imprison you for 30 years instead of sending you to a comfy cabin in Siberia for a couple summers and hoping you learn your lesson.

Essentially every highly developed capitalist nation has become incredibly efficient at atomizing workers, manufacturing alienation, and crushing the capacity of its people to organize any resistance. Look at miserable places like America, or South Korea. If the social technology available to the ruling class to manufacture consent and divide & conquer their working class only gets more sophisticated over time, why should we assume that socialism is necessarily bound to emerge from developmental progress, even if it's obviously better and technological advances might even make stuff like cybernetic central planning feasible? What's stopping them from simply making human beings so alienated from each other that fighting back is impossible? Stuff promising "socialism by 2050" because development will necessarily lead to communism seems about as likely as liberal states promising net zero carbon emissions by 2050 or whatever. Is there anything to meaningfully contradict this? The resurgence of nationalist social democracy in LatAm and stuff is encouraging but it feels like a step back in ambition.
74 posts and 9 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.14795

>>14720
Internal contradictions. Capitalism tends to undermine its own foundations. It's able to delay the inevitable, usually via interventionism via a compromised government. If not for that, capitalism would have collapsed many decades ago.

 No.14796

>>14793
Dude I am literally an Indian. I don't support any imperial western aggression against China but I also am sure China is in no way a socialist country anymore and has no plans for it in the future as said by party members themselves. I like Chinese culture and innovation but in no way see them as socialist

 No.14797

>>14723
How would post-RoP 0 capitalism even work? What else would people do?

 No.14798

>>14723
No anon that's what the big "Neo-Feudalism" lever is for.

 No.14799

>>14797
The top levels of bourgeoisie can still have profit even as the average drops below zero.

 No.14800

>>14761
socialism is when there's an ML party in charge

 No.14801


 No.14802

File: 1683549125159.jpg (10.2 KB, 190x266, image_proxy(1).jpg)


 No.14803

>>14790
Marx was born in the 1800s. You are living in 2023. When you refuse to adopt a dialectical outlook on historical figures because you are so desperate to use slurs.

 No.14804

>>14799
but what happens when you have absolute heat death?

 No.14805

>>14748
>PRC literally manufactures post of the worlds stuff how much for productive forces are needed sire ?
enough to sustain itself from imperialist overthrow

>Can we get socialism by 2230 atleast sire ?

depends if we can build enough to eclipse the capitalists without them killing everyone

 No.14806

>>14761
yeah socialism is not a checklist, that is the opposite of dialectical thinking

socialism is not a state of affairs which is to be established
socialism is not ideal to which reality will have to adjust itself
socialism is the movement to abolish the present state of things

 No.14807

ultras be like:
>why doesnt china go full on planned economy or communist when its still in the process of creating a alternative economic global system.
<certainly if china presses the communist button then its not like china will be isolated, its on the fench capitalist partners wont abandon them, or get couped by the major capitalist powers. Its not like large portions of east asia, africa, middle east and latin america are compradors, easily couped, or suffer from the remnants of western imperialism. And its not like china pressing the communist button wont just make the major western powers embrace anti china fascism instead of socialism. Oh and its certainly not like those same nations that are on the fench also include opportunistic capitalist nations that can easily betray china.

 No.14808

>>14733
If China's development isn't stalled, it's literally impossible for them to keep up this level of progress by still maintaining capitalist. At some point the private sector becomes too much of a burden on the economy and has to be phased out. It doesn't matter what Xi says, he needs to calm foreign investors, an unfortunate pragmatism. You are not going to get cybernetic fully automated capitalism.

It's not dirigisme because unlike France under DeGaul they are a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasants.

Form =/= substance

 No.14809

>>14808 (me)
Also I find it an odd notion that a party elite can just "press the communism button", that's essentially a Trotskyite/Blanquist concept. Socialism has to involve large masses of people like it was in the early USSR or Cuba today.

It's also pretty arrogant to allege that top party leaders of the biggest Communist Party don't know what socialism is. It's not like the Western left amounts to failure after failure.

 No.14810

>>14808
>It's not dirigisme because the CPC is in charge
why does the superstructure matter here?

 No.14811

>>14810
1. The superstructure does in fact matter
2. It's not just the CPC it's how the entire state is organized
3. Dirigisme is not an ideology it's a way to conduct economic affairs. A state can use dirigisme and still has a specific class character. The USSR dirigisme in the NEP and clearly was a socialist republic. Cuba today pretty much uses dirigisme.

 No.14812

>>14811
yes anon that's my point. you're saying CHYNA isn't dirigisme. if it isn't then what is it?

 No.14813

china is socialism but with dirigsme characteristics

 No.14814

>>14813
Capitalism with chinese "socialism" (nationalism) characteristics.

 No.14815

>>14807
What's a fench

 No.14816

de gaulle was a dengist

 No.14817

File: 1683629234561.png (457.64 KB, 1280x720, ClipboardImage.png)

>>14720
> Stuff promising "socialism by 2050" because development will necessarily lead to communism seems about as likely as liberal states promising net zero carbon emissions by 2050 or whatever.
In light of recent developments the deadline seems pretty arbitrary given the CPC had to know the Cold War would happen in-between. Not saying it wasn't considered , of course, but it's such a huge conflict that it strikes me as disingenuous to predicate anything on winning.

On the other hand it seems "undiplomatic" to frame the development of Chinese capital as accelerating the contradictions of global liberalism until it brought China, and the other big players, into conflict with the USA.

 No.14818

>>14817
It's closer to catastrophic climate change by 2050

Remember the rate of profit is falling and it'll be hitting zero around then

Socialism or barbarism have fun kids I'll probably be dead by then

 No.14819

>>14815
I can't spell fence :/

 No.14820

File: 1683671764012.jpg (225.08 KB, 1125x1230, 1683295478490770.jpg)

If we can assume that capitalism needs three essential ingredients, namely a strong and stable currency, a large workforce and a market for commodities to realize value, then the inevitability of capitalist collapse becomes clear. What I mean is this. The unfortunate side effect of an industrialized middle income society is plummeting birth rates, as China is now finding out. If one wanted to starve foreign capitalists of cheap labor power, they would look to industrialize Africa and get them self sufficient.

 No.14821

>>14820
>If one wanted to starve foreign capitalists of cheap labor power, they would look to industrialize Africa and get them self sufficient.
That's what belt and road is for

 No.14822

>>14820
my "the global dominance of the US dollar is not under threat and there are no viable alternatives" T-shirt has people asking a lot of questions already answered by my shirt

 No.14823

>>14822
I'm tempted to print a T-shirt with precisely this on it. it's too late tonight though

 No.14824

>>14820
The "nothing to see here" meme is making a big comeback

 No.14825

Arguably, socialism as a mode of production has already superseded capitalism as a mode of production infrastructurally. The prospects for the future of civilizational BRICS multipolarity, for common prosperity, and for Common Destiny seem good; rejoice and invent the better tomorrow. Western leftists shouldn't treat politics as their escape from reality and should reconcile with the real conditions of their existence, and be not always constantly paralyzed by negativity or foolish nihilism; all shall be okay eventually even if the path be troublesome, and logic and faith both so seem to say.

 No.14826

>Does capitalist development necessarily lead to socialism?
Either the title is poorly written or this is a dumb thread. It's obviously "no". Very very obviously. Even with the vaguest Marxist idea of "anything after capitalism". Even with the vaguest liberal notion of "socialism is when you have healthcare". No. How Marx fucked up so bad on this one is a mystery.

 No.14827

>>14826
Do you believe in non-determinism?

 No.14828

>>14825
As Comrade Deng said I am a Communist and therefore an optimist
Why fall for bourgeois cynicism comrades? You aren't Haute Bougeois anyway it'll never work for you the way it works for them

 No.14829


 No.14830

>>14812
he's saying your divide between socialism and dirigisme is false because they're not in the same category: socialism is an ideology and dirigisme is a way to run the economy. so one can be socialist while running a dirigiste economy.

 No.14831

>>14830
>socialism is an ideology
socialism is a mode of production

 No.14832

>>14831
socialism is a feeling

 No.14833

>>14733
And Stalinfags will embrace this as legitimate socialism and ML while whining about Yugoslavia being revisionist.

 No.14834

>>14833
Why are you taking the name of the lord in vain? Don't you know you will go to hell?

 No.14835

>>14832
socialism is a way of life

 No.14836

Socialism is exactly the same as capitalism except people won't be able to get on my nerves anymore

 No.14837

socialism is what I say it is, and the more it fits with my ideals, the more socialist it is

 No.14838

Maybe socialism is all the friends we made along the way
It makes sense, you know, collective struggle and all
Thanks for everything guys, it was really a pleasure to build socialism with such lovely people like you
Let's now build a new world, far better then what we have now!

 No.14839

>>14755
>Socialism is when 5 years.
Garfield on Twitter AES???? Critical support!!!

 No.14840

>>14839
Socialism is when people are nice and don't look after their own profit but engage in "mutual aid"
This is what I get from liberals so I think it's the generally agreed upon definition

 No.14841

>>14720
We will have a classless society when capitalist have liquidated the useless eaters and replaced them with AI.

 No.14842

>>14841
Yes useless eater

 No.14843

>>14745
>Capitalism is defined by crisis every ten years or so
>If the Chinese continue to have no crisis then by definition it is not capitalism
China never had much trouble since Deng's liberalization because they make big bucks from international trade, their trade balance has (almost) always been positive so far.

But Chinese growth is also predicated on a large amount of debt (see Evergrande) that is expected to be reimbursed, and unlike the US, they don't control the world's reserve currency, on the contrary the renminbi is soft-pegged to the USD for devaluation purposes, in order for the US domestic market to absorb a lot of the glut of Chinese manufactured goods circulating on the world market.

In short, the Chinese have been unironically developing the productive forces using supply-side economics, but a different kind than Reagan, focused on gaining the upper hand in manufacturing.
It was the whole philosophy behind Deng's catchphrase, more or less "让一部分人先富起来", which was incorrectly translated as "To get rich is glorious", but more accurately means "Let some people get rich first" — if you want the real speech, take a quick look at http://keywords.china.org.cn/2021-01/11/content_77102316.html.

They did a great job at this, but the problem is that now, worldwide recession is happening — and crises have long-lasting effects, remember 2008, it's the main historical reason why you feel so miserable all day!


What I expect is the following:
>1) Western consumers absorbing the glut won't be able to afford as many Chinese goods as before, due to economic depression.
Imagine you are a Chinese factory supervisor, you see a ton of products rotting in stock, you don't have enough facilities to store anymore, and stopping the production is more expensive than letting the machines run. What would you do? Imagine this at the scale of China.
This is called an over-production crisis, and it's a real possibility.

>2) Chinese private companies — and perhaps public companies too, if they have tight budgets, reminder China is the size of Europe and local governments have a lot of autonomy — don't like to pay workers a lot, because it's unprofitable.

This means some Chinese companies are looking forward to delocalize their production to nearby countries like Vietnam, Thailand, Philippines, Malaysia, etc.
In turn for Chinese workers, the direct advantage they gain from GDP growth will recess, just like it did in the West before, and a more important part of GDP will be fueled by high-tech companies (and certainly financial capital as well).
Urban workers who aren't highly qualified will most likely be left out of the rat race, and be reduced to sell their labor power to Uber Eats 美团 in order to deliever food to PMCs and single parents in exchange for a substandard wage, just like in the West right now.
The working class might, as a side effect, eventually rediscover its rich socialist history in the process.
Oh wait, it's already happening right now, that's why 躺平 and 摆烂 became memes in the Sinosphere around the same time the /r/antiwork admin was being interviewed on FOX News, and young Maoists who get a tad bit rebellious get thrown in jail.

>3) The US will not want to get rid of their "exorbitant privilege" regarding the dollar.

I don't feel like explaining why it's not a good omen, you jerk off enough on the end of the petrodollar and the Russo-Ukrainian war already, you already know what I'm talking about.
I'll just quote a bit from Wikipedia, in case a Washington D.C. bureaucrat reads this:
<In a speech delivered in March 2009 entitled Reform the International Monetary System, Zhou Xiaochuan, the Governor of the People's Bank of China called Keynes's bancor approach "farsighted" and proposed the adoption of International Monetary Fund (IMF) special drawing rights (SDRs) as a global reserve currency as a response to the financial crisis of 2007–2010. U.S. Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner expressed interest in the idea of greater use of SDRs as a reserve.
<However, he was criticized severely for this in the United States, and the dollar lost 5 cents against the euro in exchange markets following his statements. He and President Barack Obama shortly afterwards backtracked Geithner's comments. [Source is Adam Tooze's 2018 book "Crashed"]


I recommend reading the introduction of Trade Wars Are Class Wars by Pettis and Klein (2020) if you can find a copy of it, it analyzes the current trade war between the US and China, taking cues from Hobson's theory of imperialism and Keynes.

I'm excited for the future of China, not because it will collapse in 3 weeks, not because a glorious socialist future is forecasted for 2050, but because it will experience the same current problems of the West as it's basically a developed country now, and this will foster more international working class solidarity when ecological problems will pile upon us exponentially and we'll have truly no other choice than socialism or barbarism.
It's a good time to get immersed into Chinese culture.

 No.14844

>>14750
"lol" said the ruling elite "lmao, even"


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