No.1768645
It is Marxist because it's a synthesis of Marx-thought and Lenin-thought and Deng-Jinping thouhgt
No.1768693
>does it conform to le holy book
i rarely agree with dengoids but this is a meaningless question
No.1768695
>does Xi conform exactly to my checklist interpretation of communism?
Anti-“Dengists” once again proving they’ve never read Marx. For the millionth time, communism is not a set of policies, nor a vague collection of “good things” but the real movement which sublates the current state of things. Of which China does every day its economy continues to eclipse the waning west
No.1768696
This is an ideology that follows the national interests of China. It draws on many years of socialist practice in China, including maintaining the security and leadership of the Communist Party. It also incorporates market economics and traditional Chinese theories, which are the practices after the reform and opening up.
However, if Marxism is to be truly realized, ideology must prevail over national interests. Otherwise, it will be limited to geopolitical conflicts and ethnic issues. The Soviet Union in the last century also suffered from controversy over geopolitical and ethnic issues in Eurasia.
Although the market after the reform and opening up brought economic development, it is also very different from the old planned economy. It also brought a very contradictory question: planned economy or market economy? The idea of trying to perfectly combine the two is considered to be a dance between water and fire.
Ugh, I can't log in to my GPT anymore. It might be because they detected my frequent IP changes due to using a VPN. I'm now using Gemini, and my Google email was also blocked. I just appealed and got it back today, and Twitter still thought my login was abnormal and it took me a day to log in. It also wouldn't let me reset my password with my email. I forgot the combination of letters, numbers, and case for Lenin's birthday. Damn it.
这是遵循中国国家利益的思想，它有许多的来自于中国历年的社会主义实践，包括维护党的安全与领导地位。它也包括了市场经济与中国传统的理论，这是改革开放后的实践。
但如果要真正实现马克思主义，必须要让意识形态凌驾于国家利益之上，否则会局限于地缘冲突和民族问题之中，上个世纪的苏联也是因为在欧亚的地缘与民族问题饱受争议。
而改革开放后的市场虽然带来了经济腾飞但同样也和旧时的计划经济大相径庭，它也带来了很矛盾的问题：计划经济还是市场经济？试图完美结合两者的思想被认为是让水与火共舞。
呃，我的gpt没法登上去了，可能是查到了我使用vpn的ip频繁变动。我现在用的是Gemini，我的谷歌邮箱也被封掉了，今天才申诉找回来，而推特还认为我的推特登录异常卡了一天才让登上去，还不让我用邮箱重置密码，我忘了列宁生日的字母和数字组合以及大小写，该死的。
No.1768706
>>1768696The actual issue is that Xi Jinping's ideology seems to be most oriented toward the success of the Marxist-Leninist party state in China and of China and the Chinese themselves.
It actually feels Khrushchevite in comparison to the classic ideology of the Mao days and the revisionism of the Deng period.
In a sense, it's the natural progression from Deng; Xi, in many parts, is simply common sense (corruption cannot be allowed to eat through the party, Dengist reforms went too far, etc), but you feel as though that Xi stands for nothing else than basic competence and integrity.
No.1768716
>>1768705So true fellow comrade! China is just as bad as America and we have to do everything we can to stop those dirty chinks from conquering us and ruining communism, even if it means we parrot anti-communist lies about China verbatim!
No.1768717
>>1768706>The actual issue is that Xi Jinping's ideology seems to be most oriented toward the success of the Marxist-Leninist party state in China and of China and the Chinese themselvesYes imagine that, a country’s leader putting the wellbeing of his countrymen before glorified virtue signaling for whatever fad of the week moral crusade western liberals are crying about. How dare he actually improve the living standards of his country? Everyone knows that real communism is when the lesser races live in poverty so that white westerners can live in decadence and luxury!
No.1768718
>>1768644xi jinping thought is state capitalism, similar to tito thought in yugoslavia. China = Yugoslavia in economy.
No.1768720
>>1768644It's not. Copers will say that CPC is just waiting for its turn, but that's not how parties work. You can't "hide your power level": if you are doing capitalism, your party will inevitably get full of people with the appropriate consciousness. No amount of ML theory at universities will change that.
Current Chinese culture is also nothing like socialist countries' culture, be it movies, books, or anything else.
No.1768721
>>1768695Dengists also confirming they haven't read Marx beyond the cliffnotes provided by later theorists. Communism isn't a a set of policies, you are right anon. However, Communism is the negation of capitalism's negations of modes of production it replaced. Meaning as far as Marx saw it, Capital the text is both an analysis of capitalism and an outline of the inherent madness of capitalism that need to be negated by a supplanting ideology.
China currently faces an unique challenge. The Dictatorship of the Proletariat remains in tact, but is at risk of being absorbed into the very capitalism it tries to micromanage. I find it telling that no one had hope China until Xi Jinping, and only than decided to read Deng. The winds could easily blow again in the opposite direction once Xi is gone.
It stands to reason, to realize the second negation of capitalism, the DoTP of the CCP will come into conflict with domestic and international capital or forever be reduced to the fireman of Capitalism. Protecting capitalism from is own suicidal impulses like the Socdems of old.
This is not, however, to say China will fail. As I have read plenty of Chinese theorist who express similar concerns.
>>1768717Retard. China is a Marxist-Leninist political state, yes. But it has largely abandoned the humanism inherent to Stalin's own Marxist-Leninism in favor of a greater focus on stability. Like Brezhnev, this means China's "socialism" is an admission of defeat. As it no longer wants to deal with the instability inherent to political struggle. China right now has done more to protect capitalism than destabilize it. Despite all its successes.
>The capitalist mode of appropriation, the result of the capitalist mode of production, produces capitalist private property. This is the first negation of individual private property, as founded on the labour of the proprietor. But capitalist production begets, with the inexorability of a law of Nature, its own negation. It is the negation of negation. This does not re-establish private property for the producer, but gives him individual property based on the acquisition of the capitalist era: i.e., on cooperation and the possession in common of the land and of the means of production. No.1768723
>>1768721This is the most sensible view on China I have ever read on this site.
No.1768726
>>1768716Critical support to comrade burns against the revisionist dengoid hordes!
No.1768727
>>1768722
China can’t be communist because its succesful.
No.1768729
>>1768721I actually hope that the wind blows in the opposite direction, but only once the edifice of the Party-State has been purified and cleaned up sufficiently.
A liberalizing wave is inevitable, but the question is whether this castle in the sands can withstand in, or whether it’ll fall utterly into capitalist decadence. There is no one left other than Xi. Apres vous, le deluge.
No.1768730
>>1768729>A liberalizing wave is inevitableFukuyama pls
No.1768734
>>1768729>There is no one left other than XiI wouldn't go so far is to say that. There is plenty of based members of the current administration like Wang Yi. Remember Xi was relatively unkown here until his election
No.1768918
>>1768911Critical support, but there's nothing to criticize. This is China
No.1768933
>>1768729>There is no one left other than Xi. Apres vous, le deluge.Xi's faction will continue the path. This is based on reading shitposts here. Any truth to it?
No.1768985
>>1768717Socialism with German characteristics strikes again
No.1769057
>>1768918>if yellow men do capitalism with red flags, there is nothing to criticizeI love /leftypol/'s revolutionary defeatism.
No.1769080
>>1768912when the two wrongs are basically just two slightly different groups of chauvinsts who use the existence of China to explain why there right deviatonist BS is like totally socialism guys then center is unironically the best choice.
No.1769107
>>1768695>For the millionth time, communism is not a set of policies, nor a vague collection of “good things” but the real movement which sublates the current state of things. If I shit my pants then I have sublated the current state of things by sublating my clean pants into shitty pants. When will ultras acknowledge Marxism-pants-shittingism as the real movement?
Or maybe by "current state of things" Marx was referring to the core relations of capitalism which still persist in China. No.1769117
>>1768912centrism between
>whining about china evil despite not living there (national chauvinism, manufacturing consent for imperialist war against china)<total dengist dicksucking and china never does anything wrongis good actually.
No.1769129
>>1769127I don't understand the point of your picture. You think the Chinese citizens in Beijing, Shanghai and Guangdong are Cambodian peasants living in mud huts who fear to step on an undetonated mine everytime they go outside? You are safer in Beijing than in Los Angeles lol.
Doesn't mean China isn't capitalist tho. No.1769132
>>1769129Retard, once again. Why am I surprised?
The picture is to illustrate how uneducated and indoctrinated you are. You probably hold incorrect and retarded views on Kampuchea, much the same as your views on The PRC.
No.1769134
>>1769132Ok, I'm indoctrinated, show me the light oh anon full of wisdom.
Let me guess, China is communist, and you don't have any argument to back that up except pic related?
No.1769135
>>1769129The fact remains, you do not understand the material conditions of China. You do not understand the position the CPC finds themselves in, nor do you understand their approach.
What should they do? Embrace stagnation? How well did that go for the USSR?
I would recommend that you read Xi Jinping's works, and actually research Socialism with Chinese characteristics, but I know that this advice will fall onto deaf ears.
I do not understand why any self-proclaimed Communist would not support the PRC. They are the most successful Communist movement in history.
No.1769137
>>1769134The wisdom can be found in reading books on the subject. Your view of Marxism and Socialism is most likely based primarily on reddit posts, leftypol shitposts, and youtube videos. How do I know this? If you were actually well read, and held nuanced opinions, you would already be in agreement with me.
If you want to be a Marxist, you need to do your reading. Larping can come after the fact.
No.1769139
>>1769135>What should they do? Embrace stagnation? How well did that go for the USSR?I don't expect the state of any existing country on Earth to do anything other than capitalism. What matters is what the working class is doing, if it goes on strike or not to stop this murderous system that will kill all of us with climate change in the name of "productivity". Chinese workers often go on strike, but nobody cares here.
I would recommend you to read Kohei Saito, but you don't give a fuck as you are too busy collecting your 50 cents by shitposting on this dying website. Continue building the productive forces by dick-sucking the PRC, you are extremely useful for the future of socialism.
No.1769143
>>1769137>Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, A Guide for ForeignersI stopped reading it as soon as I realized the author use neither pinyin nor actual Chinese characters to write down the Chinese concepts he is talking about. For a supposedly academic work about China, it's a serious flaw.
No.1769144
>>1769135The fact that they allow capitalism to run rampant does in fact suggest to me they're not communist
Maybe they have some long game where in 2050 they will push the magic button and switch to socialism but it doesn't exactly seem likely does it?
No.1769146
>>1769144>allow capitalism to run rampantwhat a gross exaggeration. you should be embarrassed.
>>1769143anon, there are books on the subject written in pinyin/actual Chinese characteristics. why would I suggest those books to somebody who is not Chinese?
>>1769139I have read, "Capital in the Anthropocene." This doesn't change my stance on anything I have said henceforth. Also you suggest that I am getting paid to post here, that is also false and fucking schizoid of you. I am merely trying to show you the light, and I do this in good faith.
No.1769147
>>1769143>i stopped reading as soon asif i had a dollar for every time some channerbrained faggot announced they stopped reading as soon as X, I would be a billionaire
No.1769148
>>1768721>Communism is the negation of capitalism's negations of modes of production it replacedyeah but how does that happen, materially? from increasing productive forces: quantity into quality leads to the withering away of the state as artificial scarcity imposed by monopoly gives way to abundance governance and force maintaining the division of labor becomes administration and distribution of resources. communism is when the belt and road is complete and alibaba international takes over amazon prime and ships stuff worldwide for free based on need. thats why imperialism is the primary contradiction because it retards economic development to preserve unequal exchange or outright destroys competitive industry to reset the rate of profit.
No.1769149
>>1769146You are just being defensive, you have nothing to say, no bait to offer, it's just "China is socialist because I said so westoid", there is nothing to argue about, "I've read books unlike you, but I won't explain anything to you, I know I'm right and you are wrong", it's weak banter, it's why /leftypol/ is so boring these days.
No.1769152
>>1769148>communism is when the belt and road is complete and alibaba international takes over amazon prime and ships stuff worldwide for free based on need.Okay, now this is proper bait.
No.1769155
>>1769152Kill yourself trot.
No.1769161
>>1769155I'm not the one who believes a capitalist company will start shipping consumer products for free worldwide for the well being of humanity and abolish its monopoly on the market out of its own goodwill, I'm not a hippie with Chinese characteristics.
No.1769256
>>1768721I don't really read anything except these labels on Dr. Bronner bottles. They go hard,
No.1769268
Communism is when you live in a cave and are forced to eat gruel with moth larvae.
The average Chinese enjoys universal healthcare, no homelessness, rising wages and expanding public infrastructure, so it can't be communist.
No.1769270
>>1769268Hey, could you explain to me how by this standart most of European countries arent actually existing communism?
No.1769277
china is capcom
No.1769279
>>1769270How are they developing the underdevelop world in any significant way? And don't say "bombing them", that's not development. Europe's industrial output is waning. The real economy in Europe is shrinking, if anything. You can figure out the rest :)
No.1769281
economic development = socialism
no economic development = capitalistm
this is why 1950s-70s japan was communist
No.1769283
>>1769281No, see nothing can ever have been communist. As soon as something leaves the noosphere it gets infested with capitalist particles and the communism collapses. Scientific fact. Real and communism are as such concepts that exclude each others existence. Where there is existence there is no communism and vice versa.
Savy?
No.1769286
>>1769161Interesting quote: Jack Ma, the now disgraced and exiled founder of Alibaba, at the time of Alipay going kaput, claimed that if the Party wanted him to transfer ownership of Alipay, he would. IIRC, he was and still is a Party member.
***
The point of Mao and Markets is to illustrate how even if much of the Chinese economy is in the hands of the private sector, much of the successful firms are in the hands of Communist Party members who still maintain (at least on the surface) Communist values and are still subject to Party discipline.
In other words, capitalism in China is to large extent a fraud; it's still the Party-State controlling things, it's just using different mechanisms of control as opposed to direct ownership.
No.1769289
End of the day, I guess the real thesis of the book is "I can't believe Porky is that stupid"
No.1769295
>>1769137>>1769135Dengoids like you use "material conditions" as abuzzword to send the ebil PLUSULTRAS away. For the love of god I have never seen a single revisionist actually try to explain what these material conditions they so cite so often are
No.1769314
>>1769279You talked about healthcare, wages and public infrastructure, things that western European states have on higher level than China. So they are communist, right? And if the issue is in the rising trend, then they are no longer communist, but they used to be, right?
No.1769325
>>1769314>You talked about healthcare, wages and public infrastructure,No I didn't.
Public infrastructure is more developed in China, AFAIK. Obviously not all of China, but from what I can tell, the major industrial hubs have public infrastructure that far, far surpasses European infrastructure. If you have information that discredits this or you disagree, I'd be happy to know why.
>And if the issue is in the rising trend, then they are no longer communist, but they used to be, right?Colonial European countries were somewhat progressive before, yes, but after a while they became an impediment to progress, internationally. Domestically, they used to be progressive too, but have generally tended towards privatization, de-industrialization, and financialization, so they are no longer progressive. Whether communists were at the helm of progressive movements is not immediately relevant.
In the case of China, she has been incredibly progressive, almost single handedly responsible for massive progressive movements in Africa and West Asia. Again, whether communists are at the helm is not immediately relevant to the objective fact I have described.
What good is a communist movement if it's power lies merely in abstraction, ideal, and a failed imposition of utopian ideals onto society? What good is the USSR now to the communist movement internationally? What good is the DPRK to the communist movement worldwide, which lies isolated and under attack?
As for the question of whether the party leadership is communist or not, what exactly would you think the communist party should do? Are they not doing enough by your standards? Should they impose collectivization? Is the goal of communists to impose communist societal existence into a society or to bring it about? What should the imposition of a communist society even mean, and why is that the correct way?
And before you go on about the moneyless, classless society, these are the consequences of the bringing about of communism, these aren't the means of bringing it about. It is a utopianist mistake to confuse the two. Of course, ultras and post leftists believe that one can simply abolish money and classes by sheer will. If that is true, it is a mystery why they haven't done it yet. Maybe they lack convictions in their beliefs…
No.1769329
I said it once, I'll say it again: western communists care only to use China (socialist or not) as a surrogate to justify their passivity in the imperial core. If the communists sought to abolish the imperial state at home it would be millions of times more effective in helping China than engaging in petty debates regarding China.
No.1769332
>>1769139>just accept neocolonial genocidal state of things because if you don't, you're actually hurting the planet. This is what eco-fascists/eco-trotskyists actually believe.
No.1769333
>>1769331Everything he said is correct. European real wages went down
No.1769340
>>1769270Europe, rising wages and no homelessness.
Stupid?
No.1769342
>>1769331That's not me sweetie. I was just responding to you.
>>1769329I'd agree with you, except it's always the "only communist on twitter" people who are obsessed with shit like this. In my communist org we get these people coming in, they want to fight about China or whatever the fuck, we listen to their shit about how China is the devil or how Stalin was the Antichrist, we nod, say OK OK, yes, whatever you say, and then they are never seen again, back to Twitter to be a non-militant nobody. They're not interested in communism as praxis, only on being morally and intellectually superior to others.
When it comes down to doing praxis locally, they don't even come to our protests, our events, they do fucking nothing. We're out there being harassed by police, by businesspeople, by senators. We're out there speaking to the media, speaking at union events, marching on workers day.
Where the fuck are these China haters? Fucking nowhere.
No.1769345
>>1769335Is this meant to be a joke? It's on the line of mocking liberals-pretending-to-be-anarchists and the real thing.
No.1769354
>>1769329>it’s another episode of “western leftist confuses having an economy with capitalism and purposefully perpetuates this misunderstanding of capitalism to justify his own racism”Yawn…snore…
No.1769357
>>1769354China has a bourgeois, private property, wage labour, and free markets, my brother in Christ that is capitalism
No.1769358
>>1769357Ancient Egypt had this. Ancient Egypt was capitalism
No.1769359
>>1769357>communism is a fairy land with no money or jobs where everything is freeImagine claiming to know better than the CPC while spouting utopian nonsense like this
No.1769361
>>1769357china isn't even free market. I dont know where this argument comes from. This is the only argument I cant really understand.
No.1769363
>>1769359>communism is […] with no moneyYes, unironically
No.1769364
Here comes Pol Pot
Watch out
It's Pol Pot
Pol Pot
Pol Pot
Pol Pot
No.1769367
>>1769364BEGONE POL POT. THERE ARE NO GLASSES HERE… I CAST YOU OUT OF THIS THREAD
No.1769368
>>1769357Feudalism had bourgeois relations, private property, wage labor, commodity productions ("markets").
No.1769370
>>1769335Retarded. The USSR had economic relations with "global capitalism" including the US.
Also, in my experience, people who feel compelled to add the disclaimer "global" to what they are going to describe are the undialectical, black-and-white thinking "one size fits all" retards; usually to make a defeatist argument. "Global bourgeoisie" is worst abomination in this radlib terminology.
No.1769374
>>1769295Here are some material conditions for you: China has over 20% of the world's population, but only 10% of the planet's arable land. Its GDP per capita is lower than that of Russia. Essentially, abandoning "reform and opening-up" is simply not that easy, but self-sustainability and increasing what they call "dual circulation" is one of their top priorities.
It's especially funny when this argument comes from Trots and ultras, that socialism must be global other its just state-capitalism, but for some reason they do feel the need to carbon-copy Stalin out of all people to centrally develop the economy while being isolated.
No.1769376
>>1769363And Marx said this where?
No.1769378
>>1769376>Finally, when all capital, all production, all exchange have been brought together in the hands of the nation, private property will disappear of its own accord, money will become superfluous, and production will so expand and man so change that society will be able to slough off whatever of its old economic habits may remain.By Engels.
No.1769382
>>1769148>from increasing productive forcesThat’s a 1/3rd of the battle and I am under no illusions that China still has a lot of development to do. If we consider the great leap forward was an act of brutal and necessary primitive accumulation, then in a twist of irony, Mao set the stage perfectly for the Dengist reforms.
But what of the other 2/3rds? Let’s set aside jargon for a moment like the withering of the state. And take a trip backwards in time. The terror of the French Revolution and Soviet history up to Khrushchev’s ousting. They are defined by the inherent trauma of negation. There is a reason liberals have turned both into almost myths of mass slaughter. Because the imposition of a new reality is traumatic to a society. It might as well be a massacre in a simpleton’s mind.
Coming back to China, we saw an inkling of this trauma in the cultural revolution as well. Mao faced down self-negation and retreated. This is not an indictment of the man rather an acknowledgement of the monumental challenge posed by realizing negations.
In one way, and in many other ways not at all, China finds itself in a phase of political struggle similar to the French Directory. Where the revolutionaries have lost power, and thereby certain tactics have been surrendered, but the guiding ideas remain in place.
Hence why my chief concern is China’s emphasis on stability. Not its need to develop, nor its policy of avoiding confrontation with the West. But revolutionary change is anything but stable and there is a reason Lenin rejected the gradualism of Kautsky.
If China stays where it is currently, then in Marx’s dialectics, the DoTP will become synthesized into the superstructure of this halfway system it has given rise to. Or will stay frozen to socialism with Chinese characteristics, where all the cruel dynamism of capitalism remains unmolested unless it threatens the overall stability of the country.
>>communism is when the belt and road is complete Will it ever be completed if China remains unwilling to pursue a policy of confrontation? If communism is that simple, then I’d imagine China could be more aggressive in realizing it.
Truth is. The continual development of the third world just swaps the centers of capitalism. And strangely, reverses historical responsibility onto the shoulders of the Western proletariat. As they sit in the epicenters of countries who no longer grow rich from capitalism’s growth and rather only stand to grow poorer.
No.1769388
the leftypol left is dead
No.1769390
>>1769378Yes when you pull that paragraph completely out of context I can understand why one might come to a conclusion that Engles is talking about those things as a whole rather than as they exist under capitalism, the present state of things at the time of writing. But you might be unaware of this: later theorists and leaders have come along and improved upon Marxism and as Marxism is not a dogma but SCIENCE it necessarily evolves with the times
No.1769391
>>1769378That isn't marx. Try again.
No.1769397
>>1769382China will avoid a policy of confrontation as long as it's not the most profitable choice.
This is why we're seeing so much effort on trying to not piss off the West too much. The Western powers are clearly intent on neutralizing China right now; primacy / hegemony is now blatantly entering American discourse and the near neighbors are being encouraged to militarize (even if they don't have the economic power to do so successfully).
***
We are basically 5-10 years away from breaking through. A 30% collapse in the dollar now, if the US sees a bad recession or if the dollar hegemony collapses, will spike the Chinese economy through the USD. If US wealth is entirely dollar denominated, then that will also drop US net wealth to the same levels as that of Europe and China, and bring about their nightmare scenario of being perpetually vulnerable to COMMUNIST financial agitation and corruption.
***
In fact, what we have now is an anti-imperialist quasi-alliance of Russia, China, Iran, India, and a few Latin American states.
What we are seeing is that China is trying to play the "friend" and "negotiating partner" as long as possible, but it's Russia doing the dirty work of debasing the dollar and destroying NATO equipment in Ukraine, Iranian-backed Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis creating anarchy to Israel, and the Indians playing both sides and refusing to join the American camp wholesale.
***
The US military has proposed 2025 as a deadline for war with China. In fact, if there is no decisive battle soon, the American world system is likely to implode the moment the recession hits and the Chinese and Russians move to implode the dollar.
The part of the anti-Imperialist alliance in China simply needs a few more years, anything to stall American action, a few countries willing to put themselves up as speedbumps and holy martyrs against the American war machine, so that the imperialist hegemony can be broken once and for all.
These are the most crucial 60 months of our lives.
No.1769398
>>1769342There is a large gulf between non-doers and doers. Non-doers will over time be integrated into the movement in a long and painful process, in an ideal scenario.
No.1769400
Also this debate was already settled (or let's just agree to disagree) decades ago. Call it whatever you like, call it windowsills, camels.
No.1769403
>>1769299I still see no rebuttal. Extension of public factories implies there's still private property.
No.1769408
whenevr someone mentions china we get these peak autism score responses. i gotta save them for later
No.1769409
>>1769408This thread is excellent material for the anti-sinophobia CPC sponsored pamphlet
No.1769434
>>1769388It was a loud, shrill niche and ate itself because it couldn't grow the fuck up
No.1769439
>>1769329>western leftists love to lecture others for not pressing the magic communism button<now I will lecture them for not pressing the magic revolution button in one of the most psyoped countries in the world whose workers' orgs got hit hardest by neoliberalism the hardest out of any imperial core countrymfs love to lecture others about material conditions until its time to act superior to people they don't like, then they become the most crass idealists on the board
No.1769446
>>1769436I will never shut the fuck up. Keep the discussion going. Keep presenting the weakness and formulating solutions. My pamphlet will prove that China is Communist.
No.1769448
>>1769436another comment for my collection
No.1769449
ULTRAS AND LIBERALS, BRING FORTH YOUR BEST ARGUMENTS. THEY WILL ONLY BE USED AGAINST YOU
No.1769451
>>1769446Why should anybody give a fuck about some internet goober's pamphlet?
You think you're gonna say shit that people who've been around long enough haven't heard a thousand times?
No.1769452
>>1769446>Keep the discussion goingWhat fucking discussion?
I see no good-faith discussion here, just armchairs screaming at each other.
No.1769454
>>1769449My argument is that you suck and everyone on this site save for like maybe three people is an idiot who doesn't have arguments, just saying shit
No.1769455
these threads are peak entertainment
No.1769458
>>1769452I agree. The liberals and ultras have no real arguments. That is why I ask them to make concrete and thorough arguments. The ultras and the liberals only bring shitty slapfights and recieve adequate response. I ask them to do better so that they may get a real pounding. Arguing against nothing is pointless.
No.1769459
>>1769458I mean, you don't have arguments either.
You simply go "Nuh-uh, they ARE! Because someone else said so!" when you can't even demonstrate *why* your sources are superior. You're just as bad as them.
No.1769463
>>1769459There is no argument because there is nothing to argue against. Stop seething and attacking me baselessly. Make a real argument
No.1769465
>>1769461>>1769463You first.
Actually make one that isn't reducible to
1. complaining about ultras
2. complaining about westerners
Actually demonstrate the superiority of your position instead of regurgitating complaints about people you don't like. Otherwise you're just adding to how shitty these threads are.
We get you pseuds every thread, and you're just as bad as the people you argue against. You're both insufferable pseuds.
>inb4 NOOOOO YOU MAKE AN ARGUMENTI'm agnostic on China. I have no opinion because I don't have the necessary information. It is up to YOU to sell an undecided person in these threads to sell someone in my position on YOUR position.
But you ain't doing that, you're just matching the opposition's infantile behavior with equally infantile bullshit.
Posting a pdf doesn't count No.1769471
>>1769455>these threads are peak entertainmentThe geopolitical prognostications seem like total alchemists to me. Like the opposite version of that Peter Zeihan guy where the other camp is going to collapse in two weeks, except it's the U.S. and it's the CPC which is playing 4D chess. I'm skeptical of that. I figure the CPC is comprised of pretty intelligent people who are doing the best they can, but Xi doesn't seem like he has a particularly fun job, and big part of the job is looking at the dire state of things in China and going "oh shit oh shit oh SHIT" and then beginning a campaign to clean things up that never would have been allowed otherwise.
So if you look at the Western coverage, China seems like it's experiencing one disaster after another followed by a fucked-up shitshow and Xi has ruined everything and lost the Mandate of Heaven. But there are real disasters, real crises, real problems, real mistakes, which they find some way to turn around and make it into something that benefits them, so they come out looking like they're having a normal one. They're experts at this stuff going back to the 1927 White Terror to the Long March, the Cultural Revolution and then the experiment of reform and opening up and the Hong Kong protests a few years ago – and now the real-estate crash. Their history is one of big ol' fuck-ups and then, to the eternal frustration of others wishing for their demise, things worked out okay, and either strengthening it or teaching some useful lessons they use to bounce back.
That's my general read on the whole thing. They're just not doing as badly as many outside observers wish, and I can armchair with the best of them – so here's a propaganda video to inspire everybody here to bounce back when YOU fuck up. Mao famously said: "Dare to struggle, dare to win." The DNA of guerrilla war is always being one small step away from disaster. In a world of crises, an organization that specializes in muddling through them has a distinct advantage.
No.1769480
>>1769354That's just idpol mixed with orientalism
No.1769484
>>1769357>China has a…You can tell a person is a radlib lacking in basic historical materialism because they are unable to historicize these trends.
Is the bourgeois class nascent, or have you reached maturity in their dictatorship?
Where has this "private property" been seized from? Is it part of the finance imperium?
What is the status of wage labor in comparison to previous modes of production?
How does the current "wild west anarcho capitalist" free market aspects of China's economy reflect their historical conditions having only recently moved beyond primitive accumulation? (Uyghur bros…)
No.1769488
>>1769370In my experience multipolaristas are closeted fascists.
Reference? Our "Communist Party" in italy is in a coalition with open fascists while it strictly toes the line on multipolarity and on "anti-imperialist" russia, china, venezuela, etc
No.1769491
>>1769465China’s success on both the world stage and in caring for its people is proof enough that communism is alive and well in the People’s Republic. No, they’re not going to abolish work or god or bedtimes, and I’m sorry if that disappoints you, but as has been repeated over and over to liberal simpletons Communism is not a list of “good things” for your ideal utopia, but the sublation, meaning evolution and refinement, of the present state of things. All this time you spend railing against China for its alleged betrayal of Communism and yet they encounter nothing but success after success.
We can all see what’s going on: you’re scared. Terrified even. Terrified of knowing liberal hegemony is coming to an end, and with it your ill gotten luxuries and treats you rely on third world labor for. A new world dawns on us, and if you cannot commit yourself to the real movement then you are simply a reactionary to be destroyed. Is that what you want? To die like a dog impaled on a Chinese bayonet? Or would you rather support your comrades?
No.1769496
>>1769465My position is that China is Communist. The logic of this position is expounded upon within the Chinese Constitution and the great body Chinese Communist law and theory. My position is proven by the material conditions of Chinese Communism. I do not have to make attacks and present them as argument.
>I am a China centristThen become educated. China is Communist. Read these PDF files to learn.
No.1769498
>>1769368Nonsense. The near totality of the population were serfs who worked for a lord, not for a wage and not to produce commodities to sell in the market.
Meanwhile market capitalism is the dominant form of production in china. Even Xi said that they are a market economy and have no intention of going back to planning
> Xi said: "The practices in reform have made us realize that we must under no circumstances turn our back on addressing blindness of the market, and we must not return to the old path of a planned economy." https://web.archive.org/web/20210304231224/http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-05/23/c_139082022.htm No.1769500
>>1769498You fucking idiot. China is not market capitalism. China is market socialism.
No.1769504
>>1769500Markets under socialism have a fundamentally different class character to markets under socialism. You should know this
No.1769505
>>1769500>CPC says there managing and capitalist market and actively building socialism<ackshually sweaty the chinese don't know anything abt there government or country, listen to me the self appointed western china expert- they achieved full communism. >>1769503>that posteryet another dub for the CPC
No.1769508
>>1769361Whatever china has a "free market" or not is irrelevant to identify it as capitalism.
In fascist italy the goverment held 45% of steel production, 39% electromecanic, 80% of shipbuilding, etc…
https://web.archive.org/web/20210625060308/https://tesi.luiss.it/15088/1/174711.pdfWhile in nazi germany import/exports were heavly regulated, the nazi party had high influence inside most companies due to aryanization while some industries were subject to forced cartelization.
Add to the mix french dirigisme and New Deal US and it should be pretty evident that socialism is NOT when the guberment does shit
No.1769511
>>1769508>it should be pretty evident that socialism is NOT when the guberment does shitTrue, for socialism you need a bunch of red flags as a base requirement
No.1769512
>>1769451>Why should anybody give a fuck about some internet goober's pamphlet?The ultra and liberals clearly care, as their endless circus will come to an end. If the mods will not solve this issue of liberalism, then I will. With the pamphlet, the Communists can rebut the liberals and ultras by being armed with the cold and hard truth. No longer will they waste their time by playing into the circus. Sinophpbic, anti-communist
ultra liberal threads will be derailed as soon as humanly fucking possible because the Communists will be ready.
No.1769513
>>1769505Fucking Li Qiang is openly pro bourg and advocates for bourg politics and he's in the standing committee
No.1769515
LIBERALS. COME. TELL ME WHY CHINA ISNT COMMUNIST
No.1769517
>>1769409> People criticizing china it's sinophobiaLibtard in red cloth
No.1769518
>>1769517Their criticisms of China stem from blind sinophobia in combination with general lack of understanding of communist theory
No.1769521
>>1769511>True, for socialism you need a bunch of red flags as a base requirementI kid you not this is what dengists unironically believe
No.1769523
>>1769513deadass? goddamn thats fucked. While I'm generally supportive of the PRC I've always gotten the impression there in an early british empire sort of situation where the economy is actively transitioning from one system to another and the political superstructure reflects this. England had whig capitalists and tory feudalists and China has the left and right wings of the CPC respectively.
>>1769515it looks like Li Qiang can lmao
>>1769517>>1769518the diehards on each side of the China question are just oreintalist asl and have a completely Idealized view of China as either full gommunism or literally le 1984. Completely unserious
No.1769524
>>1769471Ehh, both sides are in deep crisis. Emergence of Trump indicates that something is deeply wrong in the US system; high debt levels, worsening inequality, emergence of automation suggests that there's going to be a major shift in polity stateside within the next decade, if you don't consider Trump as such.
On the Chinese side, the increasing corruption in the CPC, the routinization of administration which Xi is trying so hard to combat, the breakdown of pure socialist governance into the hybrid Dengist form, the dropping birth rates meaning that the Chinese can not, without massive intervention, sustain their culture and civilization…
One or the other camp will fall into irrelevance and decline in the next 5-15 years. Or maybe both.
With the recent turmoil in Ukraine, Gaza, etc… we know that Pax Americana is either over or nearly over, and the Chinese aren't going to replace it.
No.1769526
>>1769504No they don't. Why would they?
No.1769528
>>1769523China is fully communist
This is not idealization. Read theory
No.1769529
>>1769523Which, mind you, was originally the left wing of the Guomingdang (Nationalist party), which was the progressive side of the Shidafu rural elites / mandarin aristocracy.
No.1769533
Look at how the liberals play enlightened centrist. How pathetic
No.1769535
What the Soviet union did was trying to skip straight to the higher stages of socialism/lower stage communism and they paid the price for not sticking to the planks.
No.1769536
>>1769534You’re literally not even a communist, you shouldn’t be here in the first place and probably would have been banned long ago were it not for blatant favoritism among the mods towards libertines and racists
No.1769541
>>1769528so is the CPC just lying when they specifically say otherwise? I've seen the 1st book here before and the second looks p interesting. so much theory and so little time
>>1769529interesting, I was alr aware of the CPC formerly being part of the Guomingdang but not the connections to the Shidafu. But it does make a great deal of sense that the base for nationalism would be imperial officials trained to read and write.
>>1769534>>1769536sectarianism bad now be friends (:
No.1769542
>>1769535Did you sleep on the NEP or what?
No.1769548
>>1769541Shidafu is a class. Rural gentry or urban gentry with education, used to make up the mandarinate.
Recall that Zhou was the descendant of mandarins.
In a sense, the modern CPC government is just the old imperial system swapped from Confucian to Marxist ideology and with the official class no longer operating in a codominium with the imperial dynasty.
No.1769552
>>1769536>This thread shouldn't exist because there is a PRC gen and a question like this does not deserve its own thread (especially with the current state of the site/userbase)<You’re literally not even a communist if you point this out???
>you shouldn’t be here in the first placeIf these shitty bait threads continue, a lot of people will leave and not come back.
>>1769541>sectarianism bad now be friends (:You sound like a mod, if you are, how bout you anchor this thread or merge them into /prc/ so the general userbase doesn't have to see the abysmal stupidity of this pointless discourse. Mods are the most to blame for this shit (even more so than the dengoids) because it really is killing this site. Do your work jannies. Clean this shit up. Fuck your enlightened centrism. We have generals for this autistic cope.
No.1769554
>>1769552im actually not a mod lol, although my solution is p similar to yours but instead of taking a giant shit on the PRC general by merging this thread into it I would simply merge all these kind of threads along with all other clear bait posts into an single argueing general. Just merge all of the shitflinging threads into one awful general that can be avoided.
No.1769571
>>1769535mfs when they dogmatically believe in a mere hypothesis
No.1769575
>>1769571Kill all mensheviks
No.1769578
>>1769332>THIS IS WHAT <buzzwords<buzzwords<buzzwords<buzzwords<buzzwords<buzzwordsDengtards be yappin fr
No.1769679
>>1769512>gggrrrrr I'm gonna BTFO people so hard with my postingAsk me how I know you're new to the internet
No.1769681
>>1769533Xi Jinping is not going to take your virginity away.
No.1769686
>>1769552Honestly these threads and /ISG/ perfectly encapsulate this site's decline. Brain-fried screen addicts who think that just saying shit is equivalent to proving anything, plus a heaping helping of weird mirror-/pol/ energy, where instead of being angry at feminists and PoC, it's patronizingly idealizing Chinese people while slobbering over alunya pics or whatever
No.1769722
>>1769498I think having quotas for the commanding heights of the economy is effectively the same thing as planning. By subsidizing the input costs for industry they can guide investment and development according the peoples needs. So if the party does the mass line and people need houses then the party can set quotas for steel and cement that will create high supply lowering prices and incentivising construction companies to make more houses. But they are long term and comprehensive so they don't just manipulate inputs, when they decide they need more houses they also start building engineering schools so the turnaround is something around 25 years.
No.1769973
>>1769681I was only twentynine years old. I loved Xi so much, I had all the theory and deng scrolls. I'd pray to Xi every night before I go to bed, raising the productive forces. "Xi is love", I would say, "Xi is life". My dad hears me and calls me a revisionist. I knew he was just jealous for my devotion of Xi. I called him an Ultra. He slaps me and asks why bourgeois are allowed in the CPC. I'm crying now and my face hurts. I lay in bed and it's really cold. A warmth is moving towards me. I feel something touch me. It's Xi. I'm so happy. He whispers in my ear, "This is my economy". He grabs me with his powerful dengist hands, and puts me on my hands and knees. I spread my ass-cheeks for Xi. He penetrates my butthole. It hurts so much, but I do it for Xi. I can feel my butt tearing as my eyes start to water. I push against his force. I want to please Xi. He roars a mighty roar, as he fills my butt with his love. My dad walks in. Xi looks him straight in the eye, and says, "Im raising the productive forces". Xi leaves through my window. Xi is in love. Xi is life.
No.1769985
>>1769282I don't even like china and the east ideologically but damn I fucking hate the US and the West so much… watching all these arrogant shits seeth is fucking gold
No.1770117
this threads is great. we need more threads like this.
No.1770122
>>1770117This same exact thread happens every single week
No.1770125
>>1769676>Posting theory isn't allowed!"Ultra" liberals are fucking worms
No.1770128
>>1769679It will not be mere posting. My pamphlet will elevate the discourse on Communist China. The circus must stop. China is Communist.
No.1770133
>>1770122that doesnt soundlike daily
No.1770142
>>1770133this site doesn't have enough traffic for that, weekly is the best you're going to get
No.1770148
>>1770128shit dawg lmk when that it drops
No.1770149
>>1770145/leftypol/ always takes the bait
No.1770185
>>1770149which is great. it humors me
No.1770324
>>1768645How are you this old and saying shit this illogical?
How?
No.1770671
>>1770128Ask me how I know you're terminally online AND new to the internet.
No.1809617
Bump for the thought of Xi Jimping and the China Communist Party
No.1809618
>>1768705>quoting marx literally is revisionismWhy do I even bother coming here every day. Like, you are
literally not "revising" anything by quoting a man correctly.
No.1809619
>>1768720>It's not. Copers will say that CPC is just waiting for its turnThings that I have never seen in my life but are always brought up by their imaginary opponents.
>You can't "hide your power level": if you are doing capitalism, your party will inevitably get full of people with the appropriate consciousness.Holy shit, that idealism. Wanna read up on how commodity fetishism works. I'm a communist yet I have puchased a bunch of goods for Easter brunch tomorrow, I was doing capitalism, rendering the former impossible.
>Current Chinese culture is also nothing like socialist countries' culture, be it movies, books, or anything else.You've been there? The USSR had Pepsi and their Olympics team was sponsored by adidas. Who gives a fuck. If the Chinese proles want to watch Hollywood shlock, let them watch Hollywood shlock. Culture changes when the geopolitcal tides turn, but a too repressive cultural policy was a weakness of the countries of the Warsaw Pact, like listening to rock was bourgeois decadence and so on.
No.1809634
>>1769370>"Global bourgeoisie" is worst abomination in this radlib terminology.Nationalist bitch
No.1809635
>>1809619>I have puchased a bunch of goods for EasterAnything for me?
No.1809643
>How is Xi Jinping Thought still Marxist or Socialist?
It is a continuation of Chinese modern revisionism and is indeed a reactionary right-wing deviation from Marxism-Leninism and towards Khrushchevism-Dengism. The people's state has been transformed into a state of the national bourgeoisie only, its "socialism" is aesthetic and really Han chauvisinst, state-capitalist and social imperialist. An ever-capitulating collaborator to the G12 haute bourgeoisie, who it serves a semi-enslaved workforce, its land and internal security, its own race to become an imperialist superpower has already begun, with its superexploitation of its southeast Asian neighbors and the poorest nations on the planet (including intercontinentally, i.e. Africa, Latin America), where they buy up natural resources, mines, price out essential businesses like grocers and supermarkets and monopolize the markets, etc.
China post-'76 has more in common with Nordic social fascism than it has with it's socialist period or the DPRK.
No.1809649
>>1809643Those are some bold claims, but can you back them up with a
SOURCE??? No.1809660
>>1809643>Han chauvisinstI see everyone from Maoists to conservatives hurling this accusation against China. With no proof whatsoever. Minorities were literally excluded from the one child/two child policy, imagine a similar policy would be enacted in Europe or the US, libs would scream white genocide.
No.1809665
>>1809660They weren't, they were just given more leeway than Han. Which is what happened in Xinjiang–sterilization policies were simply the implementation of two-child policy limits for ethnic minorities.
No.1809671
>>1809665>Xinjiang–sterilization policiesThose were IUDs, lmao, and the ones crying about sterilization where islamists (who fought against Syria), and besides that IUD rates got to the levels of Chinese population. Stop parroting retard talking points
No.1809682
>>1809676
I will support anything that takes down the revisionist Oceanic goverment
No.1809686
>>1809676
>Oriental Despot mode of production
Go back to 4chan
No.1809690
China is continuing in the same wave of progressive anti-imperialism similar to the Qing empire and the Ottoman Empire, working with various backwards tribals kept in the dark by the Europeans. China seeks to uplift them and use them to strike the European empires that have plagued the world since the rise of the Romans if you are against them you are for European chauvinism and colonialism(USER IS BANNED UNTIL HE TOUCHES GRASS)
No.1809695
>>1809687
Why are you attacking them? They don't give a shit about you, they have no emotional investment here so why should you? Move on with your own life and do politics in your own country
No.1809697
>>1809693You would prefer to keep Africa in savagery than actually do anything to uplift them, WE are the only people actually getting the job done
No.1809699
>>1809696
Try to read what Oriental Despotism means first and you will realize why applying it to a state whose economic infrastructure resembled 70's Japan is beyond retarded. You must not talk nonsense!
No.1809700
>>1809698
>Staring the truth, that the orient is the orient, and western fascination with it is a sideshow
One of the worst baits i ever saw. 0/10
No.1809701
Come back when you have some useful information to share
No.1809704
>>1809699>economic infrastructure resembled 70's JapanYou mean top-down direct state ownership was in Japan, too? Did Japan have mandatory trade unions and communist party cells in every company? Were there boards of supervisors which NECESSARILY contained trade union representatives in every company?
It's all in here in the corporate law of China, by the way. It's kind of amazing how communists instead of checking it for themselves just want to believe hearsay and bourgeois authorities
http://mg.mofcom.gov.cn/article/policy/201910/20191002905610.shtml>>1809693In-fucking-deed, no research, no right to speak
No.1809707
>>1809702China isn’t chauvinist and supporting china isn’t either but what should I expect from an anarchist I bet you think socialist commodity production doesn’t exist
No.1809709
>>1809707> anti-imperialism similar to the Qing empire and the Ottoman EmpireI don't know much about the history of the Qing empire or the ottoman Empire. I really doubt they were anything but imperialists. Could you please share your history knowledge to us?
No.1809711
>>1809709>Qing empire got destroyed by the western empires making them martyrs to the anti-imperialist cause >Ottoman Empire successfully proved to European chauvinists and Christians that a eastern Muslim power could compete with the European empires and strike fear into them If you need more info than this than I can’t help you
No.1809712
>>1809711>>Ottoman Empire successfully proved to European chauvinists and Christians that a eastern Muslim power could compete with the European empires and strike fear into themthe ottoman empire predated fucking modernism you clown, next youll be saying the sassanids proved to european colonialists that the east can compete
No.1809713
>>1809649Of course, all of what I wrote is public knowledge.
None of this is hard to find or understand, it is in the open and the CPC isn't even trying to hide it. The heaviest obfuscation, barring neocon western MSM, comes now primarily from the online revisionist cheerleaders, on Twitter, lemmy, "MAGAcommunists", or on this very site – not from the CPC themselves, who will spew there unprincipled bourgeois-serving nonsense through official channels.
>Bukharin Inspired Deng Xiaoping to Change Chinahttps://www.icsin.org/uploads/2021/02/16/39d8634ba99a5b85596ef64b2302a60c.pdf>Young Deng Xiaoping, during his student years in Moscow, not only studied Bukharin’s works but also had the chance to listen to Bukharin’s public speeches; he also personally witnessed implementation of the New Economic Policy advocated and pushed by Bukharin and saw for himself the changes the NEP in the social life in the Soviet Union. All these experiences left a deep mark on Deng’s thinking.>Bukharin expounded on the concept of “primary stage of socialism.” This was the first time a communist thinker had proposed such a theoretical concept. Deng Xiaoping introduced the concept at the CPC thirteenth party congress in 1987, during the early phase of the implementation of reform and opening up policy>Bukharin stresses on the need for nurturing market mechanism and market in the early stages of socialism, something he had elaborated in a report in 1925: “All farmers must be told, all farming classes must be told – make money, accumulate, develop own economy!” Deng Xiaoping advocated “let afew people become rich first” in the earlystages of promoting reform and open doorpolicy, is it not Bukharin’s influence?>In the late 1970s, Deng began to promote China’s reform and openingup policy which eventually turned into themain resource in his thinking.>From theory into practice, Deng’s reform policies exceeded Bukharin’s NEP. This was inevitable. For after all Bukharin’s theory was conceived at the beginning of the last century, China’s reform led by Deng happened in the 1980s and in 1990s.>During his famous Southern Tour 南巡 in 1992, he had said: “The Communist Manifesto and the ABC of Communism are my guides
>Xi stresses decisive role of market in resource allocation [2020, Xinhua News Agency]http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-05/23/c_139082022.htm>"The practices in reform have made us realize that we must under no circumstances turn our back on addressing blindness of the market, and we must not return to the old path of a planned economy." Xi Jinping openly rejects Mao Zedong Thought / Marxism on Class Struggle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ5B2xoQQsk
>The Latest Achievements of Chinese “Socialism”https://us.politsturm.com/the-latest-achievements-of-chinese-socialism>Some people continue to consider China a communist country, with the Communist Party of China at the helm, which therefore leads to a bright future. From the recent achievements of the builders of communism, we unexpectedly see a record drop in the birth rate in China and an increase in youth unemployment. Is this the future we want to build?>Let's consider the specifics of Chinese socialism in more detail.>Problems with finding a job are already experienced by 21.3% of young Chinese citizens between the ages of 16 and 24, as of July 2023. Earlier, in May, this indicator was 20.4%. [1]>The problem of employment among young Chinese citizens has been observed since the beginning of 2023 and naturally leads to an increase in discontent. At the same time, the overall unemployment rate in China is 5.3% (about 80 million people), and the country's GDP continues to grow gradually after the abolition of coronavirus restrictions. This allows the authorities to declare that the economy is steadily recovering, which is an outright manipulation, because since 2019 the pace of industrial production has been slowing down and growth is due to the so-called low base.>If young people cannot find a job, then the Chinese economy does not need them now to build communism.
>What was the situation with unemployment in another country building communism - the USSR?>In 1928, on the eve of the first Soviet five-year plan, according to official data of the then labor exchanges, there were 1,365,000 unemployed in the USSR with a population of 148 million people (0.9% unemployed). By the beginning of the first five-year plan in 1929, this number had decreased to 1,242,000 people. On October 1, 1930, the number of unemployed was reduced to 240,000 people. At the beginning of 1930, according to the official historiography of the USSR, the Soviet country managed "for the first time in the history of mankind to eliminate unemployment as a socio-economic phenomenon" - on March 13, 1930, the last referral to work at the Moscow Labor Exchange was issued to a locksmith Mikhail Shkunov. The Moscow Labor Exchange has closed. Unemployment in the USSR was eliminated. The Soviet worker was deprived of the fear of losing his job, and after that the loss of livelihood, students were interning at their future jobs, gaining the necessary skills and a clear future.>This was achieved by the system of distributing students to enterprises, labor exchanges, employment guarantees from the state and taxes on parasitism.>How do they cope with the problem of unemployment after 90 years in “communist” China?>After reports of an increase in youth unemployment, China ceased providing data on it. [2]>It’s very “progressive” at least, probably in the near future the calculation method will be changed and the problem will be solved in subsequent statistical reports.>However, in reality, the problem will not go away and at least it will be able to determine the problem by another indicator - by the birth rate.>Every fifth young Chinese cannot find a job, so how to create a family for the next generation that will continue the work of building communism? >At the moment, the fertility rate in China is one of the lowest in the world with 1.09 children per woman. For comparison, in Russia this coefficient is equal to 1.14 children per woman, the USA - 1.7, Germany - 1.53, France - 1.8. For simple reproduction of the population, at least 2.1 children per woman are needed.>The German newspaper Spiegel attributes the decline in the birth rate to the high cost of child care. Women simply cannot afford to give birth. It is reported that in the special administrative regions of China, the number of childless women doubled in the period 2017-2022.[3]>The growth of unemployment, the anti-social policy of socialism with Chinese characteristics show us that China is an absolutely capitalist country, where the main goal is not the growth of satisfaction of the material and cultural needs of society, but profit. The experience of building socialism in the USSR shows what an important task was in the victory of unemployment and, moreover, shows the ways to solve it. But capitalism needs an army of unemployed people to increase exploitation, lower wages, increase the working week, increase production plans, even if this means poverty and death for millions of citizens of their own country. The only way out is to make the transition to the construction of socialism, where there will be no exploitation of man by man and the pursuit of profit, and instead there will be comradely mutual assistance and public ownership of the means of production.Book-length analysis of the revisionist clique's counterrevolution against Chinese socialism
Pao-yu Ching: From Victory to Defeat
https://foreignlanguages.press/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/N01-From-Victory-to-Defeat-7th-Printing.pdf>>1809660The Dengist dismantling of socialism plunged the farm-workers and poor peasants into illiteracy and poverty and extremely uneven development. These provinces make up overwhelmingly China's ethnic minority population.
No.1809714
>>1809713Oh yes, Deng was a student of Bukharin despite the fact that Deng mentioned Lenin and Stalin all the fucking time and Bukharin never
No.1809715
>>1809712Any empire that stands against the west is progressive shut the fuck up you retarded piece of shit
No.1809716
>>1809713>>1809714Also, how fucking hilarious that "student of Bukharin" Deng supposedly impoverished peasantry when Bukharin's position was (after abandoning immediate collectivization in 1920s) sucking up to kulaks and individual farmers, lmao
No.1809720
>>1809713>The Latest Achievements of Chinese “Socialism”Oh NO china has 5% unemployment this is the proof they are not real communists! China will fall any minute now
No.1809721
>>1809715Correct me if i am wrong, but those are the initial "Qing borders", and those are the 19 century "Qing borders".
You might agree with me that this type of expansionism has nothing to do with modern china or xi jimping thought
No.1809725
>>1809715how was being a member of the central powers "aligning against the west" you moron? next youre going to tell us al-andalus was historically progressive for fighting the west despite "the west" being a germinal concept at the time & medieval europe resembling the rest of the world in its influence and form
No.1809726
>>1809722
>overthrew the Qing empire
>stronger militant forces bring back the qing empire while the kmt becomes a pro-western liberal organization under chiang
Nothing of value was produced by the Chinese republicans
No.1809727
>>1809725The central powers were anti-Anglo and helped put the Bolsheviks in power maybe you should rethink your ideals
No.1809729
>>1809713>The Dengist dismantling of socialism plunged the farm-workers and poor peasants into illiteracy and poverty and extremely uneven development. These provinces make up overwhelmingly China's ethnic minority population.What exactly was dismantled here? It's not like he privatized the land. The communes were largely an unproductive failure, the Soviets even criticized them for putting the cart before the horse. Do you have about increasing illiteracy in China? That seems highly unlikely.
No.1809731
>>1809729>The communes were largely an unproductive failureLolno, they were productive. Those were organizationally sound and progressive. They never got the high degree of mechanization which accompanied Soviet collectivization, though
Today communes are kind of reborn into village settlements with family units working the commune's land. It's not kolkhoz because it's family unit, but at the same time it has cooperation and "shared land" community
No.1809741
>>1809733Treaty of Brest-Litovsk was NECESSARY as White Guards have pulled the troops off the borders and allowed enemy troops to march forward. Trety of Brest-Litovsk PREVENTED White Guards from receiving help from Germans and shift the blame for betraying Russia onto communists
So yes, treaty was historically progressive as it was a correct decision
No.1809742
>>1809729>Do you have about increasing illiteracy in China? That seems highly unlikely.The book
Remembering Socialist China, 1949-1976 by Mobo Gao and Dongping Han addresses this history well.
No.1809743
Xi Jinping did nothing and won by default thought
No.1809748
>>1809741ok youre right, i phrased that poorly. but the point is that brest-litovsk was a necessary compromise with an imperialist power, not a historically progressive one
No.1809768
People blind to China's enormous contribution to progressing human history are the biggest idiots around. That they veil this ignorance in leftist lingo is shameful.
No.1809774
>>1809768Nations don't exist. Those advancement were made by people.
No.1809782
>>1809713
>Bukharin Inspired Deng Xiaoping to Change ChinaYeah thats True not going to argue with you on that one, but still i think what your trying to say, aka NEP style policies for a socialist state is reactionary is a pretty outstanding level of retardation, as the main reason why these policies where implemented in the first place was beacuse of the fact that it was nessesery to do so, consdering that china was, by the 1970s, a partially industrialised state equilvent to 1910s Russian Empire, and due to faltering relations with the USSR, couldn't rely on importing heavy machinary from other socialist states, hense forcing the CPC to turn towards the west in order to advance the process of modernization, hense contributing to the factors that would eventually lead to the Chinese adopting a NEP styled economic system (i think it should also be noted that Lenin, along with many other socialist thinkers at the time supported the NEP, seeing it as a way of advancing a nation towards socialisim and building up the nessercy productive forces needed to sustain the population of a socialist state.)
>Xi stresses decisive role of market in resource allocation [2020, Xinhua News Agency]Again i think you are misinterpriting what Xi is saying here, as again is he stating that the State, should in no way allow the market to run rougthshot over the country, but we also shouldn't return to the times where the state controls everything (which is what he is refering to when he talks about the old path of planned economy), not that the entire economic planning structure should be done away with all together (basically a form of a mixed market socialisim where private corporations and state owned SOEs coexist with eachother basically).
>The Latest Achievements of Chinese “Socialism”
>le epic youth unemployment rate is super duper high yeee.Again your being misleading with the statistics your using and your not providing vital context, for an example while youth unemployment may appear to be way to high that is mostly beacuse of the fact that younger people (especially those from the 16-20 bracket) simply spend more time in education rather than immediately getting a job as soon as they hit 16, and this is fairly common for countries which are going from a middle income to a higher income strata like china is as most familes are more than willing to allow for there children to go to higher education while working either at a part time job or in some cases no job at all, as these familes have enough excess income to be able to support said child fairly confortably (plus china's cost of living is a hell of a lot less than in europe or america for instance and will likely only continue to continue on going downwards) oh i think it should also be noted that the stastic the author posted is very old, as current chinese youth unemployment rates sit at 15.3%
Here is the link btw:
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202403/1309177.shtml
>B…but le epic big chungus birthrate drop.Again thats something which has only begun really recently, like when i mean really recently i mean the chinese population only began to decline in 2020 and there is a hell of alot of time until china has to worry about that.
And the CPC certainly is doing shit to receify this, one is of course reducing manpower reguirements through automating low skill manufacturing jobs (which has already begun to take place) and of course through offering pretty heavy monetary incentives for couples to have children (again time will tell if this will work or not) or of course just simply incubating children in artifcial wombs (again as you can kind of imagine there are a lot of ethical debates surronding this but if the CPC absolutely needs to it can do this)
>Look at my super scary statistic which shows that the CPC no longer represents the interests of the worker, wooooh.I'm not even going to respond to that one since you don't even provide a link to the source, but even then the CPSU was, by 1963 largely made up of non workers and farmers, and why does it matter if the NPC is made up of careerist politicans in the first place considering that the USSR had the same thing and you seem to consider the USSR a socialist state?
>Le Unemployement rate is at 5.5% THAT MUST MEAN CHIAN IS NOT A SOCIALIST STATE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, also socialisim with chinese charateristics is not socialists, am i going to explain this, no, beacuse i am a salty ultra liberal who thinks reality should bend to my will.No but in all seriousness how the fuck can you say that, like the statement about there being massive wealth disparinty and poverty is just blatently wrong in all regards, like in regards to Absolute poverty (aka people earning from 2000, to 2020 went from 48% in 2000, to 0% in 2020, and no this isn't beacuse of the fact that the CPC changed the definition of poverty, hell the CPC clasifies poverty at earning $1.69 is higher than what the UN states at $1.90, and again i know you do have to take into acount the cost of local goods).
And also how does not having 0% make you innately reactionary and conservative, like sure i am aware that avalible labour = cheaper labour costs, but even then it does seem a bit of a reductionary argument especially consdering that there are many other reasons for why young people would not want to work other than "ThErE aRe No JoBs" or some bullshit like that.
Also coming back towards the argument that the CPC kowtows to Capitalist interests, well, in all honesty i don't exactly see how they do, like again you could make an argument that China is a state capitalist country (which you did try to say even though i think you massivly missunderstood what a state capitalist state even is as you assumed that in the hierarchy of state that the Capitalists where the top dogs when simply that isn't the case in a state capitlist hierarchy, hell its more so the goverment or party, in the case of china, that is top dog, not the Capitalist) and even then i still do think that the CPC still does believe in the idea's of socialisim, as we have seen the CPC take actions which are really not in the interests of private, capital, aka those being not bailing out big real estate firms when they crashed, and Zero-covid policies.
No.1809803
>>1809792>You are blindly putting a country on a pedestal while saying that other "lesser" nations can't liberate themselves. And where are these nations that have liberated themselves? Is your home one of them? No? That's what I thought. Shut the fuc up cracker.
No.1809806
>>1809792>there are elements that push a chauvinist line, yesWhat exactly are those "elements"? And no, I don't mean the racist Chinese uncle.
No.1809809
>>1809792It’s not chauvinism just because they reject Westoid cosmopolitanism nihilism
No.1809851
>>1809782You have to be at least 18 years of age to post on this site.
No.1809875
>>1809851God is that seriously all you have to say you fucking mongoloid, like all you can do in response is to level insults because clearly you can’t support your position at all by the looks of it lol.
No.1809890
>>1809617You should be publicly shamed Cultural Revolution style for reviving this shitty thread.
No.1810451
>>1810190Every month for some reason.
No.1810464
>>1810458simple china is classical fascism
:^)
No.1810544
>>1769491It's *abolishment* of the present state of things, you idiot.
No.1810774
>>1810458To be honest the responses are really going to depend on what left-wing politcal sect the person belongs to.
Anarchists will largely argue that China is not socialist nor will it ever be socialist beacuse the State is inherently non-socialistic.
MLs will argue that China is state capitalist (which basically means that unlike western capitalists states where the porkies are the people in control of the country, in a state capitalist state the goverment, or the party in this case are still the top dogs and the porkies awnser to the party or the goverment instead of it being the other way around)
Though again with Mls i think it should be noted that many MLs (including myself) believe that china is in a form of "Developmental socialism" aka in order to achieve socialisim you need to build up your industrial and techonological base to a degree where goods production (e.g. food, comsumer goods, ect) is sufficently large enough to allow for the transition to a socialist economic model (china is currently in the process of transition from a capitalist model to that of a socialist one, we see this in the fact that the CPC in recent years has more so been focused on increasing the general quality of life for its people rather than continuing to build up productive forces as it already has more than enough productive forces to begin the process towards neuturing the porkies and increasing the living standards of its citzens to that of a middle class living standard, along with tighting labour regulations.)
Tl,DR, China is a state capitalist economy in the process of transition to that of a Market Socialist Economic structure, now will this process happen overnight, hell no, but it will gradually happen.
Now i think i should clarify that i don't think will see massive amounts of "Re-nationalization" within china, but i don't think that means that the way chinese private enterprises will be run will be in the current, capitalistic model, in all honesty i see the CPC gradually "Encouraging" (by which i mean, you WILL do this or your social credit score gets screwed with) private companies to opt into ESOP progams (basically it stands for Employee stock ownership Programs and its something that the CPC has been pushing fairly hard for quite some time) now again i think it should fairly noted that ESOPS have mostly been targetted at large private firms (as they don't tend to work all that well with small buisnesses beacuse of the fact that they tend to cost to much) so yeah, but i wouldn't be to surpised if in the near future (like 2030-2040) the CPC begins to implement policies mandating ESOP ownership for private enterprisies of more than 1000 employees, again there are also non-ideological reasons for this i think it should be noted, ESOPS tend to perform better economically as surpisingly enough giving an employee a stake in the company they work for is a good way of increasing productivity, who would of thought?
No.1810782
>>1810774Stock ownership by employees is actually pretty supported by orthodox economics; it resolves the principal-agent problem and empirically is usually associated with better economic results.
No.1810812
>>1810782Yeah but it's something that porkies like to keep to a minium and is something which is barely practicied in the western world beacuse it undermines the control of the CEO and the Executives as Employees tend to care a lot more about working conditions and safety in comparison to regular shareholders that only give a shit about dividends, hense it is more harder for a CEO to control his workforce if they have voting rights wtihin the corporation, this is why ESOPs are very rare in the west and while they are still rare in china (with apparently like 15% of private corporations offering ESOP stock options in 2015, something which has probably grown since then but still) i do think the CPC will likely begin to expand on the ESOP system(it already has as companies that Implement ESOP programs get tax cuts if i remember corrects) Likely requiring corporations to have a certain percentage of its company to be owned by its employees (likely starting off low at like 10-15% at first, then gradually expanding till reaching more than 100% most preferably or at least a majority share old of 51%)
No.1810860
>>1768716Fighting ghosts in your mind
>>1768721Best take on China I've read in a long time
>>1769282We really are about to go to war, aren't we?
No.1810928
>>1768721I mean i do agree there is certainly a chance that China could end up just turning into a Soc-dem state, but i think thats unlikely nor do i think the CPC will basically turn into "Capitalisims Psycharatrist" as for the former, social democracy is only possible if the exploitation of labour can be "outsourced" to other countries (which the western european states, the major social democratic states, could do) this is something which china cannot, nor seems interested, in doing, again, the CPC seem to be more interested in engaging in "mutually benefical" diplomacy rather than "lE EpIc SoFt ImPeRiAlIsM" that the social democratic states engaged in order to keep the Capitalist Class happy, this can largely be seen in China's "Belt and road" initative along with many other projects in africa, which, in laymens terms, is basically the chinese saying "You get schools, hospitals, and other infrastructural facilities, in exchange, we get to take SOME of your natural resources to feed our industries at home." which while is certainly NOT the chinese being virtuous by any means but is certainly not the chinese engaging in imperialisim like the western world (or soft imperialisim in the case of the modern western goverments) as the states that engaging with the Chinese do receive tangible benefits to there country in the form of industrial investment which helps for these countries (often post imperialists states that where still getting exploited by the west) to develop and improve the lives of there people and actually industrialise there respective countries, well its no real surpise why the west is losing a shit tone of influence in the third world.
Another reason for why i don't think china will become social democratic (even if Xi dies) is mostly just due to the fact that there aren't really a whole lot of people within the CPC that you can really say are Soc-dems, and even then most of those sorta people where either killed or forced to keep there heads down when Xi purged the party in the purge of 2015.
TL;Dr, I do agree there is a CHANCE that the CPC could potentially become capitalisims fireman but i think its extremely fucking unliekly, and in all honesty i think that sorta notion within the CPC has dimished considerbly since the 2010s (Aka due to Xi's purges and also due to the absolute shitstorm the western world, and more particularly, america, have become mostly thanks to uncontrolled, late stage capitalisim) which i think will be something the CPC will want to avoid at all costs in my opinion, aka they don't want to make the same mistakes as the americans.
No.1810943
>>1810928>there is certainly a chance that China could end up just turning into a Soc-dem statenonsense
No.1811368
>>1810943
>nonsense.Yeah i'm not going to lie the chance of china becoming a soc dem state and the CPC capitalisims fireman is increadibly fucking small (like less than 5%) but its still something that could happen, even if the chance of that happening is really fucking low, though at this point i don't think it will happen even if Xi dies.
No.1811387
A simple way to materially ground thoughts on China in favour and against vibes based idealism is the party position on property. Currently 'loaned out' to capital but still ultimately all in the legal hands of state and thus party as the final arbiter and holder of leverage. Thus popular control of the final lever of the economy.
Even in a perfected social democracy with a 1000-term FDR reich - the enshrinement of private property puts the interests of the creditor, rentier and banker above the state. Whose legally protected wealth will be become the state and erode such a counterfactual just as in Europe in reality
Should the CPC ever surrender this control of property as judge, jury and executioner of rents; then its over. Until that happens, China remains structurally socialist from a vulgar material measurement however bad faith individual actors within its political economy are.
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