No.1781923
>>1781786Fattest truthnuke ever to be dropped, why would communists ever want to limit human growth just for plants and animals
No.1781925
>>1781923most literate zflag
Tankposter said the anthropocentric thing is to take care of the planet so it would be habitable for humans.
No.1781936
>>1781186>>1781847>>1781923somehow both a radlib and reactionary, you are fundamentally immature and value aesthetics and substance over material analysis, go back
No.1781940
Is there any ecosocialism that has pragmatic ideas for how to implement the ideology beyond theory? I like nature and liberating the people from class structures, but how are we gonna get an industrial environmentally friendly future?
No.1781957
>>1781940there's already been plenty of ideas in this thread, we can replace most things with plant based materials and the things that can't, activate aggressive conservation/recycling until we can get metals from asteroids or whatever
No.1781962
>>1781940Im just spitballin here but like many of the changes made under socialism we already have much of the technology and knowledge and just don't use it cuz capitalism, Here are some small things I think most orgs would be capable of implementing rn
>phytoremediation(using plants to clean up pollution) is a big one I brought up earlier and theres alotta great research on the topic coming out of China on the subject atm. An org could feasibley create moss paste using bonfire moss which absorbs lead pollution.
>I think as solar becomes cheaper and more accessible we could see a possbile radical implenentation of it. For example if there was an org with the funding and knowhow to install solar panels (I'm sure if hyperconservative dipshit preppers can do it so can we) we now have an org with the means to produce electricity independent of capitalists.
>ik by itself its not much but guerilla gardening can still get a great deal done whether its producing crops and for finding the most annoying hardy species to remove and costing landlords huge amounts of the money. Somebody seedbombed some flower beds on the campus I go to and it cost the university thousands of dollars just to remove some cattails. That was a single isolated actor just fucking around. With the right plant species and coordination guerilla gardening could be a form of ecofriendly and very expensive sabotage that can even grow back.
>monkeywrenching is also similar to guerilla gardening in that it can be a great tool if you actually fucking think and coordinate first instead of just doing individual acts of adventurism
>similar solar panels, beekeeping is another method of seizing the means of (honey) production
>wetland restorstion is also within the reach of some orgs imho. Here on the southeast coast if the my DSA really wanted to they could find an area of poor drainage prone to flooding plant some alders,wax-myrtle and marsh grasses and badabing badaboom we now have a shrub swamp that acts as both habitat and water filtration. No.1781985
>>1781981>if the capitalists are incapable of it than its literally impossiblecapitalist realism go brrrrrrrrrr
No.1781999
>>1781985The point is that this is their literal proposal for solving scarcity -
just use up more scarce resources from space wgaf about the future generations lul.
This is not about being unable to imagine a better future, this is about how their proposals are bullshit at worst and science fiction at best.
No.1782032
>>1781999Yeah we in agreement then, especially that last bit the hard truth is that capitalism at this stage can only hamper technological development like space travel since the only thing its actually good for is accruing capital in smaller and smaller groups and not really shit itself.
No.1782044
Go, investigate the abiotic oil theory studied $and uphold the glorious cornucopianism.
No.1782047
Go, investigate the abiotic oil theory studied $and uphold the glorious cornucopianism.
No.1782077
>>1781999Ok what's your alternative solution for how we create more metal then? Other than just say "well magic technology will be able to create it", at least I'm proposing a solution that we know how to do in theory
No.1782097
>>1782077>Ok what's your alternative solution for how we create more metal then?You don't.
>Other than just say "well magic technology will be able to create it",That's exactly what I was calling science fiction.
>at least I'm proposing a solution that we know how to do in theoryWon't solve scarcity.
No.1782101
>>1782097So how are you going to have industrial society without metal?
No.1782115
>>1782112Anprims are not welcome, especially ones that use the internet
No.1782300
>>1782115>especially ones that use the internetpaging the burn unit 🔥 🔥 🔥
No.1782301
>>1781923what>>1781925 said. I'm hugely pro-ecology. I'm stating that the nature/human-activity divide is mostly ideology.
No.1782307
>>1782124>Post a limp-wristed anti-Zerzan cope <Of course he's a unibooSorry, anon meant anarcho-larpinthewoodswithyourparentsmoneyists aren't welcome here.
No.1782328
>>1782101we need the metal, we don't need to convert the metal into toy cars that are made of potmetal and lead paint for the express purpose of dumping them into landfill and the ocean.
No.1782329
>>1782328Yes I'm aware of this which is why I said we should not use metal wherever possible but metal is still a non-renewable resource, which would eventually run out no matter how much recycling was done over a long enough period.
No.1782799
>>1782329>metal is still a non-renewable resourcenah you just melt it bro, trust.
No.1782804
>>1782329We only ever need so much metal. We can always recycle at a certain point. There is a celling to our consumption.
No.1782805
>>1782804Metal rusts, is ground away into dust, and so on, you also lose some each time you recycle
No.1782806
>>1780087Idk about ergosocialism but egosocialism is when I do whatever I want.
No.1782808
>>1782805You can use energy to reduce the rust or regather the metal lost.
What is lost every time is increasing entropy. You can theoretically reuse all the metals you are using if you spend large enough amount of energy.
No.1782814
ecosocialism implies that regular socialism doesn't care at all or does not care enough about ecology and environmental issues, which is wrong.
No.1782820
>>1782077>>1782101>>1782329What the fuck am I reading lmfao
"Non-renewable" is only applied to energy sources/fuels like carbon fossil fuels or (useful isotopes of) uranium because their use results in their conversion to something else AND they can't be reliably produced again either from their same byproducts or not. They're only found on earth due to natural processes that take millions (for fossils) or billions (for uranium) for them to form and end up here, and which cannot keep up with human use.
"Metals", in this case I assume shit like iron or copper or whatever, do not have this characteristic. Once they're used they don't convert to something else and can be easily repurposed and put somewhere else. What only matters is that they stay within the thermodynamic system of the earth (more specifically, the earth's surface).
Unless you're talking about the possibility that human needs would require more metals than what is even present on earth, then that is an actual concern since the processes that create metal atoms are the same as that of uranium. However that is very unlikely unless the human population is in the trillions or some shit.
No.1782824
>>1782820 (samefag)
Again, just to be clear: metals operate on a "
is being used" basis, rather than the "
has been used" for non-renewable fuels. They don't run out, but they can be not enough.
No.1782826
>>1782808You can't just use infinite energy to solve the problem. Unless you come up with some way to artificially create metal from scratch or from plant materials. No matter how much energy you use you can't reprocess at 100% efficiency. A portion of the metal that rusts will just flake away and be lost and some of it will be lost when you remelt the rusted metal.
I guess you could theoretically try to reprocess metal from the air and water but I imagine this would be at horrible efficiency (probably less metal collected than actually would be used by the turbines etc to power the process).
>>1782820You can't get 100% of the material back that you put in, it will be lost through any number of ways as I stated. Rust is just one, if you have a sawblade you are inevitably losing steel off the cutting edge in the process of using it which will just turn to dust and blow away.
I know people don't usually think of things other than power sources as 'non renewable' but we should in my opinion.
However with that said, I suppose we could eventually come up with some process to get metal out of the Earth's mantle directly. This still wouldn't be an infinite supply but certainly an absolutely immense one. Don't get me wrong I'm not kept up at night by this fear but I just think we should move to as much plant-based resources as possible.
>>1782814Unfortunately just like 'democratic socialism' it's a term that needs to be used due to certain people (you know who you are) that piss all over the name of socialism.
No.1782836
>>1782826>it will be lostWhat do you mean? The atoms are still there. They're not going away.
Rust isn't something completely different from iron that makes it useless. All iron that is extracted begins as rusty/oxidised. The energy we use to unbind the oxygen atoms can be from a renewable source (and like that anon said, the only concern entropy which is a trillion-year affair and not important).
The sawblades and dust/specks example will make the metal atoms practically useless in the short term, but they're still there and will gather somewhere that makes collecting them practical just like before. Also it's just a very tiny amount.
No.1782840
Speaking of all of this, this is why people should be more careful when sending spacecraft and creatures into space since the matter and energy sent will then really be out of the earth's thermodynamic system.
No.1803521
Eco is arguably the most important ideology, considering without clean food air and water and livable temp and a safe shelter to live in, we would all be dead. Preserving that takes priority over anything else.
No.1803719
>>1779145>clean air and drinking water is reactionaryyeah ite
No.1803732
>>1779193people need to post more memes irl like this
No.1806199
Socialism implies that there is a worker based economy and a party that controls it. That means there is a still an industrial system of some sort that is polluting the biosphere and extracting resources. Socialism and Environmentalism cannot mix. Any industrial based system is a threat to our Earth and must be done away with.
No.1806233
>>1806199Kaczynskites out
No.1806567
>>1806199>That means there is a still an industrial system of some sort that is polluting the biosphere and extracting resources. Based. Industrial development is good and based
>Socialism and Environmentalism cannot mix.Correct. Environmentalism is fascism
See herre
https://web.archive.org/web/20150407113316/http://www.ecofascism.com/>Any industrial based system is a threat to our Earth and must be done away with.This implies that humans are not natural and aren't part of nature and placing "nature" above humanity.
Thank you for showing the step by step development of environmentalism into fascism
No.1806573
Well the Soviet Union defeated eco socialists once, I’m pretty sure they can do it again
No.1806591
>>1806567>This implies that humans are not natural and aren't part of nature and placing "nature" above humanity.this is the dumbest shit. the alternative is putting capital and industry above the biosphere we need to live. curious how all the extractive industries only displace indigenous populations and are tightly controlled by state security apparatus and western mining companies to keep images of the destruction out of sight from the population and the impossibility of proposed environmental rehabillitation out of their minds.
No.1806653
Cuba is the only ecologically sustainable economy on earth, no need for ecosocialism
No.1806675
Kaczynski reactionaries/an-prim mystics and hyper-industrializer techno-aesthetic fetishists constitute two ends of the only horseshoe theory that truly matters.
No.1806676
>>1806573>can do it again where is the soviet union currently?
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