No.1777081[Last 50 Posts]
Marxism has traditionally had a close alliance with the feminist movement, and human development for women in Communist states is far higher than in the capitalist West.
If it's okay with the mods, can we maintain an exception for Marxist feminists to the general anti-idpol line?
Based on the genestealer thread, I think what we really need are a lot more Marxist women. That is to say, while we can't literally fuck for revolution, we can have women in good physical shape and with nice makeup help promote Marxism and other left-wing ideologies.
Included:
Yuan Herong, a Chinese doctor who also happens to be a bodybuilder.
https://www.tiktok.com/discover/yuan-herong-official?lang=en No.1777082
The opposite. "Orthodox" Marxism has always had a highly contentious relationship with feminism and women's issues. Women's labour power was very degraded in the Eastern Bloc countries, for instance. Abortion bans in the name of "owning teh Malthus" meant women had to do the dual jobs of bearing and raising a bunch of children in the home AND building the productive forces outside the home.
If anything, anarchists have historically been much better to women's issues.
No.1777084
>>1777082>Women's labour power was very degraded in the Eastern Bloc countries, for instance.Bullshit, women get same rubles as men.
No.1777087
>>1777084Women constituted the lionshare of the workforce and took on a much larger burden than men. Add on all the unwanted births and they were doing AT LEAST twice the amount of work men were doing.
No.1777089
>>1777087Depends on country, time, and norm, and you have to remember, the "triple shift" is normative in the West as well.
Also, please recall that the Soviet Union was the first country to legalize abortion.
It's more than simply saying that "Marxism hates women"; more accurately, "Marxism has a complicated relationship with feminism".
No.1777095
>>1777087If women worked so much, how come they earned 70% of men wages and were virtually absent of positions of power? Checkmate liberal
No.1777099
>>1777089>Depends on country, time, and norm, and you have to remember, the "triple shift" is normative in the West as well.Socialist countries are supposed to be miles above the West in everything, including gender.
No.1777100
>>1777089>"Marxism has a complicated relationship with feminism"That's…. exactly my point.
No.1777104
>>1777100Having an uterus doesn't save you from being liable for imprecise language. The words you used were "highly contentious", which isn't the same as complicated.
Women's position in Eastern bloc countries has traditionally been far more advanced than in Western countries, and even when we consider outcomes, China still leads in terms of female self-made billionaires, albeit not in political terms.
No.1777108
https://qr.ae/psp2vMMarxist feminists vs Western-style entitlement feminists.
No.1777112
>>1777099>Socialist countries are supposed to be miles above the West in everythingGotta add this to the list
<Socialism is when country is WAY better than the West. No.1777158
>>1777082>Marxism has always had a highly contentious relationship with feminism and women's issues.Marxism also had a highly contentious history with itself (or rather with revisionism). Feminism had a highly contentious history with itself. Any group that aims to change the world has is susceptible to this.
Socialist countries' parties went far beyond any specifically feminist organisations in the rest of the world in improving women's position in society. You can clearly see this now that the same countries don't have communist parties in charge and women's position in society is much worse.
I understand that being the best in the world is still not good enough, but you know that societal advancement isn't just a matter of implementing the right policies… right?
>the flagOr maybe not
No.1777171
>>1777099They were miles above the rest. A Soviet woman entered space while in the US a wife couldn't even apply for a job or a credit card on her own. In Eastern Germany maritial rape was legal and abortion was illegal while abortions were free and legal. In fact after the reunification West Germany didn't even budge and went so far as to make exceptions in the legal code to keep two separate legal regimes and even in current reactionary and neoliberal Russia >40% of all researchers are women >40% of all senior leaders are women, >40% of Stem graduates are women.
No.1777180
>>1777170Any man who wants a gf has to do this, it's only equality.
No.1777183
>>1777100Don‘t waste your time with these people when it comes to other forms of oppression. These people here are regressive and also don‘t listen properly.
No.1777194
>>1777190
Well Confucianism is like East Asian sharia/patriarchy. So by proxy any cultural revolution in China must become a feminist revolution.
No.1777214
As OP, and someone who went after Anarcho-Feminist, I do think we need to emphasize women's roles in various left-wing movements, as well as focus on recruiting women, but I think going all the way to entitlement feminism is too extreme and forces a marriage with parts of the idpol community we don't want.
I do apologize to Anarcho-Feminist for going a bit too far in defending the achievements of socialist countries in challenging traditional (and thus patriarchal) social forms, but the US just funded 500 million to go after China, think of how much is being diverted to go after left-wing ideologies at large. We have to stick to truth, and in that, we have to defend Marxism.
No.1777215
>>1777214Well then maybe you should start talking about emulating the models of countries like Venezuela and China with communist groups within and outside their communist parties centered around women & international aid oriented towards developing nations helping them become farmers and shit
Instead of jerking off on here
Faggots
Never apologize to anarcho fem
No.1777218
>>1777171>In Eastern Germany maritial rape was legal and abortion was illegal while abortions were free and legal.You probably wrote that sentence wrong.
No.1777235
>>1777215Point is, we need more female Marxists and we sort of need them to take care of themselves (i.e, if you can't run, start lifting) and make their simps Marxists.
Being overly alienating to women is my failure.
No.1777240
>>1777235Awesome, talking like someone who has gotten negative pussy in their life, using reddit spacing, and posting pictures of your ideal female body type are really putting your best foot forward there. By the way, do I know you?
No.1777250
>>1777240Why assume a female body builder is my ideal body type? If you want me to admit to creepiness, the point is, having better gender ratios helps to grow the community, and women who simp-collect are very effective propaganda organs. That only requires a normal-range BMI (18-25), and aerobic exercise is hard for a lot of people who are out of shape. Muscle tends to burn way calories faster than fat, so if you can't run, lift.
No.1777252
>>1777250 (me)
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/how-to-get-more-simps--49049564You can't fuck for the revolution, but you can simp collect, and honestly, simp collecting is enjoyable, fun, and profitable.
No.1777285
>>1777250Yea go post that picture in your work Slack dude nobody will think you're acting like the saddest driest dick loser in the building when you walk in tomorrow.
No.1777291
>>1777082>abortion bans YES YES I WANT THE EST BACK PLEASE
No.1777292
>>1777244marx literally say "no fagging around"
No.1777298
>>1777292>>1777214Damn, the CIA should send some of that to to me instead of this idiot
>>1777291 No.1777300
>>1777298what's so fed about that now?
No.1777303
>>1777300Officer, with all due respect, I'm not giving you feedback.
No.1777310
>>1777285The point is that a female doctor who is also a body builder is what you’d consider a feminist symbol.
And yeah, there’s gynosexuals who like that build. What’s the problem with that?
No.1777320
>>1777244Marx so right again,
Now let's hear what he has to say about colonialism in India?
No.1777331
>human development for women in Communist states is far higher than in the capitalist West.
oh joy its a retard thread
No.1777393
>>1777331There is a phase in baby development early on, where they cannot properly grasp the fact that others don’t immediately know what they want or how they feel like.
It seems to me that you are still in that phase, because what the fuck is this comment even supposed to mean, if you have something to say, say it!
Contribute! No.1777398
>>1777393we dont need another thread derailed into explaining basic marxism especially not one thats just a chronic masturbator wanting to talk about muscular women (but lets pretend its about feminism)
No.1777404
>>1777398we
need a thread explaining basic marxism because most of the people here have never read any books.
No.1777409
>>1777081Oh my fucking god this is such an embarrassingly flagrant thirstpost that tries to seem "woke." Male feminists everyone.
>>1777082As if feminists don't have a long history of class collaboration or joining evangelicals or bashing trans people. Marxist feminists are a laughably small minority because it's quite redundant too.
No.1777410
>>1777310>wanting symbolsYou aren't a marxist.
No.1777417
>>1777409Yeah, this thread was a cock-up, but more seriously, I pose three important questions:
First, are there enough female Marxists? I'm used to operating in male-dominated spaces, but generally speaking, groups with higher female representation are more efficient. If not, how do we recruit more female Marxists?
Second, what accommodations should we make to make our communities more friendly to female Marxists?
Third, if we do have female Marxists, how do we better employ them to further the eventual replacement of capitalism by socialism, or the development of communism from socialism?
No.1777418
>>1777081>I think what we really need are a lot more Marxist womenStop being a terminally online freak.
The left is made up by majority of women.
No.1777423
>>1777398/Siberia/ material
Can someone pinpoint a reading list? At least from the other thread
No.1777429
>>1777082lol, how can one be so fucking delusional
No.1777433
>>1777417> how do we recruit more female Marxists?By showing people that socialists have their best interest in mind. By combating liberal feminism or whatever it’s called. People can be won over by simply telling them the truth.
>Second, what accommodations should we make to make our communities more friendly to female Marxists?Getting rid of all the creeps and weirdos. Not whining whenever feminism is brought up, but rather calmly and respectfully engaging in a dialogue.
>Third, if we do have female Marxists, how do we better employ them to further the eventual replacement of capitalism by socialism, or the development of communism from socialism?By treating them as equals etc. Hearing them out as equals etc, the same aplies to all other possible groups too, gays, whites, blacks etc.
No.1777458
>>1777084>>1777158>>1777291>>1777409Regardless, anyone involved in this thread should watch this documentary to get a more realistic view of what was the situation:
https://estuarypress.com/hrma-video/women-of-russia-instant-video-2/ No.1777468
>>1777081>have women in good physical shape and with nice makeup help promote MarxismIs this just "everyone should be a chad to promote gommunism" but for women?
No.1777509
>>1777468Yes. That would be pretty based. Women should work out under communism
No.1777537
>>1777468Everyone should be in good aerobic health; i.e, 18-25 BMI (lower for some ethnicities), because it gives you more energy and lets you get more out of life.
Body-building, strictly, isn't necessary, although I'd see that as a capitalist trend.
No.1777541
communism is when (lifestyle choice)
No.1777544
>>1777537Like 70% of burgers are overweight or obese. 52% of Europeans are overweight or obese.
Can we make it not too obvious that we're labor aristocracy?
No.1777547
>>1777544Mexico has a higher obesity rate than the US but you wouldn't accuse them of being labor aristocrats
No.1777572
>>1777433>By treating them as equals etc. Hearing them out as equals etc, the same aplies to all other possible groups too, gays, whites, blacks etc.Imagine putting women (most people) in the same category as minority groups. Sorry but as a gay, women's issues are much more foundational to liberating the workers of the world.
That said, feminism (including marxist feminism) is overwhelmingly unserious from a theoretical perspective and filtering all discussions of women's issues through a fundamentally liberal, bourgeois, western, white, chauvinist framework is a disservice to women. If you actually care about gender equality/abolition or whatever take on it, you should hold the theoretical contributions to at least some standards. Theory flourishes in disagreement and criticism. Simply accepting a half-baked analysis because you don't want to be mean or mansplaining is the soft bigotry of low expectations.
No.1777956
>>1777821funtastic
/thread
No.1778415
>>1777418>The left Not a group, you idiot.
No.1778494
>>1778414Are you suggesting we all learn PUA and instead of sleeping with them, turning women into Marxists?
No.1778518
>>1778456I see an anime character, it would not have lived in the Soviet Union or the current Russian Federation or other former Soviet Republics.
No.1781427
>>1777081>If it's okay with the mods, can we maintain an exception for Marxist feminists to the general anti-idpol line?No ewww sage sage get it off me ick
>Based on the genestealer thread, I think what we really need are a lot more Marxist womenLiterally just identity politics, to artificially divide everything into "more fair" parts because someone isn't "represented" and therefore that "hurts" their fee fees. The world needs authentic marxists and theorists in general, if any one of them were a woman it wouldn't make any difference. So why do you care about how retarded demographic are represented?
No.1785670
>>1777081That’s unfortunate
No.1791868
>>1785698it was shit since the op
No.1791877
>>1777433How have we been unable to show that we have women’s best interests in mind? How do we show that in socialism, the triple shift will be abolished?
No.1791878
>>1791877How are we not treating women as equals?
No.1791879
>>1791877communism is about workers, not about one specific gender/sex
No.1791881
>>1777081>>1791877Communists don't go around trying to sell their beliefs as some kind of product. 'Optics' is something suited to bourgeois politicians, not communists. You don't sell communism to an audience that will buy into it on the market. How many more times must this be said?
No.1791886
>>1791883Women can also be petit bourgeois or bourgeois, so don't call yourself a communist if you push for interclassist reforms. :D
No.1791891
>>1791883so anything that helps the working class also helps women, your points is?
No.1791892
>>1777081>That is to say, while we can't literally fuck for revolution, we can have women in good physical shape and with nice makeup help promote Marxism and other left-wing ideologies.Was this last sentence really necessary?
Especially "and with nice makeup"?
Come on man.
No.1791895
>>1777081>>1791892AHAHAHAH HOLY SHIT
No.1791937
>>1791892What I'm saying is that we should get e-girls to shill for Marxism and raise class consciousness.
No.1791950
>>1791937Way to select for the weakest and least reliable people to recruit to communism, lmao.
Firstoids will literally do anything other than organize the most marginalized sectors of the proletariat in their country. Try to honeydick Nazis to come over to leftism with lots of muscly man propaganda, propose recruiting simps with leftist e-girls, anything but go down to the tomato farm or meatpacking plant and tell Jose about Marxism because brown people are scary.
No.1791958
>>1791950Socialism succeeds because we develop people and extend their capabilities. For a lot of folks, simping is just a phase, and a pretty face with too much makeup is just a way to get them in the door.
As far as your idpol-smelling BS goes, it's not an either-or. We have MAGA communists working on the traditional Trump base, and we have more traditional socialists working on disenfranchised immigrants.
But the MAGA base is more useful, because for Jose, porky can just pull out the racism card, as he has already.
Solidarity with the oppressed peoples of the world is extremely important, but the white, male, worker simply has more revolutionary potential, in the same way the petit bourgeois has always had more revolutionary potential (has more power than the average proletarian, busy being squeezed into proletarian status by the haute bourgeoisie).
No.1791971
>>1791954Still, thats unnecessary.
No.1791975
>>1791937This is why your political movements are stagnating.
"We need hotties to get more members."
Yall deserve to be a laughingstock if not nobodies.
At the end of the day, postboomer politics is just a pathetic parody of the flower power movement.
No sex, all synthetic drugs, and watered down indie rock
No.1791977
>>1791950Postboomers cannot even into politics.
This is why boomers are still running things even though theyre all senile and crippled.
The best postboomers only can do occasional riots.
No.1791984
>>1791975Except that imperialist forces are using the exact same tactics to influence, recruit, and indoctrinate.
If we have the ability, we should just clone every single one of their tactics that is not anti-Marxist, and through sheer numbers we'll be better and more effective at it than they are.
No.1791990
>>1791984>imperialist forceswhy do you fags call the bourgeois anything except the bourgeois
No.1791993
>>1791984Mybe if yall stop treating generational cohorts like racial castes and stop whining about lack of romance/sex, stop obsessing over kiddie emtertainment, maybe youd make progress.
>>1791990Because theyre struggling with "adulting"
No.1792015
>>1791993I was thinking about the US mil literally using e-girls for psyops, but hey, if you mean the entire capitalist edifice, I'm fine with that.
Need more Red e-girls getting simped on by capitalists.
No.1792374
>>1777082>"Orthodox" Marxism has always had a highly contentious relationship with feminism and women's issues. […] in the Eastern Bloc countries, for instance.The eastern block was not Orthodox Marxism. It was Marxisn-Leninism, which evolved from Leninism, which itself did a clear break with the orthodox marxists.
No.1792385
Hasn't any of you read Kollontai ?
No.1792392
>>1791971Yes but idk what to tell you anon you're on an anonymous imageboard ran in part by incel misogo types.
No.1796744
Feminism and socialism go hand in hand. Our enemies know this, do you? Patriarchy and capitalism are interconnected and reinforce each other in important ways.
No.1796749
>>1796744Capitalism is sure reinforced my lower life expectancy and mental health.
No.1797945
Feminism is a bourgeois movement, that is why Kollontai and other Marxist "feminists" refused to call themselves that. Feminism believes in patriarchy while Marxism knows capitalism is the core of society. In fact what feminists call "patriarchy" are inseperable parts capitalist society. Even thinking that "patriarchy and capitalism go hand in hand" is just another way to somehow look at "patriarchy" without capitalism or capitalism without "patriarchy". This is kind of like saying that a Covid-infection and coughing "go hand in hand". Obviously that is the case but the actual underlying problem is the infection, and the solution is to cure the infection. Meanwhile the feminists see "the cough" as the problem, as if it had an existence on its own, which is merely "entangled" with the infection.
Another thing to consider, is that in the theory of "patriarchy", the male is seen as the oppressor. In this way feminism not only sees the wrong reason for the female-specific forms of oppression, but also serves to divide the working class. In this, it actually furthers bourgeois interests. In reality only man and woman together can free themselves of capitalist oppression, which then leads to the emancipation of women as part of emancipation of every human being.
Marxism-Leninism and communism are the way forward for women, not feminism.
No.1797969
>>1797945>Feminism believes in patriarchy while Marxism knows capitalism is the core of society. Marx "believed in patriarchy" he just understood it as a particular social system and not a general term for sexism. According to Marx, capitalism was the historical movement that overcomes patriarchal rule in a final sense, so to be a Marxist and take patriarchy in concrete terms is to consider the struggle against patriarchy a principally bourgeois struggle in the last analysis. That doesn't mean, however, that the triuimph over the remnants of the patriarchy is necessarily completed within capitalism before a transition to socialism begins, but it does certainly relegate it to a secondary consideration both for its dependence on the material base and for most of the struggle (probably) already being completed.
Additionally, even self-identified Marxist feminists tend to agree that women's "liberation" under capitalism is somewhat of a double-edged sword. Principally of course, the great majority of women are working class and face the associated oppression thereof. Secondarily, many of the effects of women's entrance into the common labor force (proletarianization per se) has had various negative consequences. These include but are not limited to: a swelling of the labor force (lowering worker bargaining power), new responsibilities as expenses as employees, and a freeing from attachment to a husband to a new attachment to one or (often) more employers who are in a position to take advantage socially and sexually. None of this is patriarchy so much as it is a new, capitalism-based form of oppression that is only partially different in character from what their male peers experience. Therefore, the resolution to these issues is the overthrow of capitalism, and with men and women positioned much more as peers than at most other points in (recorded) history, the prospect of cross-gender solidarity is far greater than it ever has been.
That said, there is no excuse for socialism to backslide one millimeter on the matter of overcoming sexism, and indeed it must be the task of socialism to overcome new or sublated forms of discrimination which took shape under capitalism.
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