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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1710476988959.png (1.63 MB, 1600x1600, MarketSocialism.png)

 No.1795262

Market Socialists come in many different flavors; from Anarchist to Marxist, Free marketeer to Regulationist, wanting Mass production to wanting Artisanal production, believing it to be the end goal to believing it to be a transitionary period and so on. What unites us is the belief that socialism can coherently exist with markets without being capitalist.

Post books and materials related to Market Socialism or post memes. If your not a Market Socialist then post your criticisms of it. If you dislike one strain of Market Socialism then post your critiques of it.

 No.1795268

File: 1710477256164.png (130.64 KB, 580x556, 2anaaq16bigc1.png)

I love inter imperialist wars where the proletariat dies in mass too

 No.1795270


 No.1795272

>Market Socialists come in many different flavors;
and each one is an imbecile

 No.1795277

>>1795262
>If your not a Market Socialist then post your criticisms of it. If you dislike one strain of Market Socialism then post your critiques of it.
We're not even going to entertain this. You're retarded and you should feel bad.

 No.1795282

>>1795277
>markets are le bad because uhhh… because… like they
theres no distribution mechanism thats a reliable alternative to markets. this is just a basic economic fact. large scale human societies have always had markets.

 No.1795365

>anarchy of production
>socialist

Retard.

 No.1795373

File: 1710489285275.jpeg (170.15 KB, 1080x602, stfu lib.jpeg)

mass produced goods are good doe. they are easy to plan

 No.1795380

>>1795365
>>1795373
but mass production is low quality, requires a division of labor, inefficient and requires private property doe.

 No.1795383

File: 1710490152370.jpg (26 KB, 480x480, Kevin Carson.jpg)


 No.1795385

>>1795282
>muh human nature
materialist board

 No.1795386

>>1795380
>but mass production is low quality
retard

 No.1795405

File: 1710493128092.png (8.78 KB, 500x250, Oekaki.png)

The market economy is already planned by socialismists' .

 No.1795407

>Socialism
<Profit as the main economic driver
Its one or the other. Pick one.

 No.1795522

>>1795262
What is the name of these guys?
Are they cool?

 No.1795527

>>1795522
Well the left one is called Roderick T. Long you can read his name on his badge

 No.1795533

i have no clue who the other guys are, except for the "Lefty" youtuber, joseph tito and the guy at democracy at work
>>1795527

 No.1795543

File: 1710510308230.jpg (36.95 KB, 457x343, encouRage.jpg)

>>1795262
>OP's pic
All those things are trash, but then again this is a trash thread.

 No.1795545

>>1795262
>Market Socialists come in many different flavors; from Anarchist to Marxist
No
Market socialism is unmarxist. The whole point of marxism is to destroy the concept of commodity production.

Market socialism is retarded nonsense. If you can take the means of productions away from the bourgoiesie, you should just collectivise them, not create the conditions of primitive capitalism again.

 No.1795547

>>1795380
>mass production is low quality
Bullshit. Capitalist production is low quality.
> requires a division of labor
So? So does all of society.
> inefficient
complete asspull
>and requires private property doe.
retard

 No.1795549

>>1795262
You cannot be a marxist and a "market socialist" at the same time, they're fucking opposites.

 No.1795553

The Mondragon Cooperatives

 No.1795559

>>1795553
What about it? It's a coop federation operating within the context of capitalism. It's better than your average private enterprise but still not socialist.

 No.1795562

>marx invented communism and wrote in his communism book that real communism is when you get free shit from the state

 No.1795563

>>1795559
yea it is better than your average private enterprise. That is the whole point

 No.1795567

Also is fair to say that the "Geopolitical economy report" is market socialist adjancent?

 No.1795590

>>1795385
jesus u people are like AI bots. "when see X respond with Y" markets arent human nature. the inca empire didnt have markets. they didnt have wheels, cattle or writing systems either. but large scale economies have always been market based. why is that? because every alternative fails. there is no alternative distribution mechanism beyond markets. what about gift economies? they still have markets. centrally planned economies? they just dont scale well. markets are not inherently capitalist. theyve existed throughout human history and most human cultures. getting rid of markets is as retarded as raw fruit diets. its not human nature that prevents it. just sheer impracticality and lack of scalable alternatives.

 No.1795592

>>1795590
Titotard completely ignoring the existence of the USSR, China, DPRK, Iran, and numerous other states who who have markets subservient to the party-state

 No.1795619

whats the difference between a market socialist economy and a corproratist economy ?

 No.1795626

>>1795590
>but large scale economies have always been market based.
Proofs?
Because the bronze age economies were not primarily market based, but highly planned and centrally controlled. There was no generalized commodity production.
Maybe you should dive into marx first, he explains how previous modes of production worked.
Centrally planned economies scale just fine. Even if you ran into your imaginary "limit", that is no reason to completely remove planning and force everything into a market, as you can just divide up the centrally planned economy into several units mediated by other mechanisms. You dont need to have a fully 100% all encompassing system.

The whole point of the analysis of the economy is to see what the dominant way we produce is. In feudalism there were markets, but the primary way people decided what to produce was through self sufficiency and royal-planned tax-in-natura. The market served a minor secondary role. The bronze age civilisations were mostly centrally planned, with the market server a similar external role.

There is an ocean of difference between a centrally planned economy that has trade with other countries on its border, or a socialist state with its economy divided into 10 units of production that conduct internal trade, and a market-based economy.

Capitalism is a market based economy. This means all production is conducted primarily for the market, to sell it. A centrally planned state with internal markets between its large units primarily produces for fullfilling the needs of the people, the projects of the state, not the market.

Remove your brainworms, my guy. Market dynamics contain the seed of capitalist relations and class society.

 No.1795632

>>1795527
Found the name of the guy on the right. He is Kevin Carson, "While originally identified as a mutualist, he now describes himself as an anarchist without adjectives."
He wrote:
Studies in Mutualist Political Economy (2007)[4]
Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective (2008)[4]
The Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto (2010)[4]
The Desktop Regulatory State: The Countervailing Power of Individuals and Networks (2016)
Capitalist Nursery Fables (2020)[6]
Exodus: General Idea of the Revolution in the XXI Century (2021)
The State: Theory and Praxis (2022)

 No.1795653

primitive thinking
i just wonder in the vau.sh-wolff regime if i would be able to cash out my share in the company that i was working for? Is mass liquidation an option?
Or does "market socialism" also mean getting rid of money? How does that work?
The USSR already solved the hypothetical issue of central planning with workers councils. The notion of decentralising but also democratising the means of production seems like an exercise in futility (again, *especially* if you dont have money for people to be able to actually engage in a market with).

 No.1795920

>>1795563
>market socialism
>getting rid of money
anon I
also that video is very funny because the answer is no

 No.1795936

Bruh

 No.1795952

>>1795920
me don't know much about moondragon, but the idea that they offer a cooperative university and a cooperative bank to their employees sounded prety.

Anyways, they may not be socialist, but most cooperatives, including moondragon, are not anti-socialism in any way. We should not allow reactionarism in trade unionism to take its root. I saw that argument in the china thread, "If China permited indepent trade unions that don't follow the socialist hardline, they will be fulled with reactionaries, that will always demand more and more liberalism and reactionarie policies".

Lets not forget that Franco and his allies had their own fascist syndicates, or the case of poland trade unionism, that resulted in the current poland of our days, one of the most reactionarie anti-comunist countries in Europe.

Tomorow i will try and finish the Moloch book and try to do a resume of what the book is about. I will keep it simple. Basicaly electricity tends to dispersed decentralised industries to form, but the State, that makes all the infraestructure focused on crossing large distancies, incentivises centralized modes of production, wich lead us to keep living in a "neo-paolitical" economy system and organization. But again, need to finish it, tomorow

 No.1795957

>>1795952
Mondragon was the hot thing on leftypol way back when. It's not my Communist ideal but I still like to bring it up to my coworkers as an example of "things could be a whole lot better"

 No.1795962

>>1795957
I am kinda newfag here, so i did not see it happen. But yea, i think they are both cool and accessible to the less instructed in politics kinda worker, that doesn't know about socialism and etc.
Idk if cooperatives, companies rulled by workers under capitalism enter in the categorie of "Market socialism", but i believe it doesn't enter in the categorie of "capitalism" either. Capitalism is a term created by socialists, so that they could name their enemies and call what the "Liberals of the markret" reallly believed and served: The interest of capital, against the interests of labour. Cooperativism should seek to abolish the class struggle, and not have bosses of any kind.

 No.1795997

File: 1710551780385.png (268.15 KB, 762x327, 1708074736213.png)

>>1795619
Corporatist economy would have classes magically working together because of the magical powers of nationalism and in market socialism workers own the means of production.

 No.1796001

>>1795592
I would rather think about Hungary when it comes to socialist examples.

 No.1796011

>>1795997
not true

 No.1796012

>>1796011
Which part do you disagree with?

 No.1796066

>>1795262
How exactly would you do away with division of labor in market socialism? Return to subsistence labor and homesteading?

 No.1796069

Market socialism is most valuable as a transitional phase between capitalism and socialism.

 No.1796078

>anarchist
No, commodification implies heirarchy.

 No.1796117

File: 1710577562154.mp4 (1.21 MB, 960x540, WWtMMcWlzlbpxkNB.mp4)

>>1795262
Richard (Alpha) Wolff actually advocates for planned economy. He only uses the coop-schtick to pull libs into the idea that socialism isn't only when the gov does things.

 No.1796133

>>1795590
>Central planning does not work
Reddit is down the hallway to the right

 No.1796146

File: 1710583002557.jpeg (195.5 KB, 824x1160, build a new world.jpeg)

>>1795590
>there is no alternative distribution mechanism beyond markets
that's where you're wrong kiddo

 No.1796411

>>1795567
Jfc you cannot be older than 12

 No.1796515

Man I sure wish real and knowledgeable discussion about these topics existed as opposed to what exists ITT which is retardos shitflinging

 No.1796520

>>1796515
I will do it tomorow, i will try at least

 No.1796521

2+ weeks

 No.1797068

finished all my chores, time to finish the book and discover the meaning of what is a market, what is market socialism, its origin and the main argumensts for and against it

 No.1797332

Small interesting pieces of the book moloch

"Planning exists because [the market] process has ceased to be reliable. Technology, with its companion commitment of time and capital, means that the needs of the consumer must be anticipated—by months or years…. [I]n addition to deciding what the consumer will want and will pay, the firm must make every feasible step to see that what it decides to produce is wanted by the consumer at a remunerative price…. It must exercise control
over what is sold…. It must replace the market with planning
…The need to control consumer behavior is a requirement of planning. Planning, in turn, is made necessary by extensive use of advanced technology and capital and by the relative scale and complexity of organization. These produce goods efficiently; the result is a very large volume of production. As a further consequence, goods that are related only to elementary physical sensation–that merely prevent hunger, protect against cold, provide shelter, suppress pain–have come to comprise a small and diminishing part of all production. Most goods serve needs that are discovered to the individual not by the palpable discomfort that accompanies deprivation, but by some psychic response to their possession…"

"In Sloanist management accounting, inventory is counted as an asset “with the same liquidity as cash.” Regardless of whether a current output is needed to fill an order, the producing department sends it to inventory and is credited for it. Under the practice of “overhead absorption,” all production costs are fully incorporated into the price of goods “sold” to inventory, at which point they count as an asset on the balance sheet.

In other words, by the Sloanist accounting principles predominant in American industry, the expenditure of money on inputs is by definition the creation of value."

"if firms could respond to local conditions, they would not need to control them. If they must control markets, then it is a reflection of their lack of ability to be adequately responsive"

"…Consumer needs, if they are to be supplied efficiently, call increasingly for organizations that are more flexibly arranged and in more direct contact with those customers. The essence of planning, under conditions of iincreasing uncertainty, is to seek better ways for those who have the needs to influence or control the productive apparatus more effectively, not less"

Basically, under the definition of "Britannica money"(https://www.britannica.com/money/market), the market is "Market, a means by which the exchange of goods and services takes place as a result of buyers and sellers being in contact with one another, either directly or through mediating agents or institutions.". So, markets are not inherently capitalist, since even in a socialist/communist economy people would still produce products and use those products. according to Marxists.org, " “A market” is therefore an extended social formation in which the needs of people are met by the labour of other people through a network of exchange relations connecting everyone who is part of the given market.", And that, with the passing of time, it was established new meanings to the concept so it could better reflect reality, being the great depression one of the breaking points from the model of the 19 century, where the Sloanist model of production (also know as Taylorism and fordism, if i understand that corectly from the book), that there was an equilibrium beteween buyers and sellers , was replaced by the idea that the govnerment should more and more create the conditions of the market to develop, to avoid the constant fluctuations and especulations of the "Free market", also know as "keynesianismo".

The book argues that this process of the govnerment creating the means for corporativism, the formation of economic oligarchies and the development of mass production, begun much earlier, in the Industrial revolution. The factories and manufacturers had the purpose of producing the maximum amount of products in the least amount of time, but they could not control the demand of the market. They needed to create an ecosystem where there would always be demand to justify mass production. That is where the State comes in.

Without the State, there would be no railways, which enable the expansion of markets so that goods could travell long distances. Those railways were never profitable in the first place, and the cost to implement them at the time was iimpossible to pay for any company without govnerment help. One of the most important components of the industrial revolution was not created by an "Free market" as the fake news of the shitty neo-liberals would like you to believe. It was manufactured.

So it is the case in all the history of capitalism. Whenever porky poop his pants, the state goes there to clean it. And is the people that pay the price, as demonstrated by the book with some other examples.

The proposal for a decentralised economy, wich would not be focused to macro-economics way of viewing things, about the mass productions of goods, but focused to small comunities to serve their needs and their goals, is what is being proposed. Since, as argued in the book, is the natural path of the development of sciences discoverie and the development of the industry. Our world order is not the natural course of things, but manufactured to serve the interests of capital, to consume more and more raw resources, create an industry based not in creating durable and lasting products, but each year create "New" products, that are basicaly the same as the old ones, to create consuumerist demand. Producing a bunch of shity stuff and buying a lot of shity stuff is no good. That is why GDP measures are shitty too

I think this is too long, i will stop typing

 No.1797336

>>1797332

How to achieve this decentralised industry? I did not exactly understood, but i tried. I will try and read the other book later, that "The homebrew revolution". I think it would be cool if i could have my own factory in home. It would create microships to sell in Bras, it would be good


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