No.1801409
Many are increasingly waking up to the fact that a "two state solution", which imperialists have been trying to shove down the throats of the Palestinian people for years, does nothing but legitimize and reward Zionist colonialism, while denying the right to return for Palestinians violently driven out of their Homeland by the ZioFascist marauders and denying a democratic voice to the Palestinian people. Unfortunately, the alternative that many of them have embraced is a "single democratic binational state" for both the indigenous Palestinians and the descendants of the racist colonizers, who will have equal rights in this "democratic" Palestine. This is alleged to be an "anticolonial" and "socially just" solution, and people insist that when they say "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" this is what they mean.
The reality is that this "solution", no less than the two-state solution, rewards the genocidal Zionist colonizers and hideously equates their "rights" with those of their victims, while denying the right of the Indigenous population to decide who can live on their land. Furthermore, it violates the right of return: how can there be a viable right to return when the homes stolen from Palestinians are being squatted by "Israeli" colonizers? And if this one-state solution is "democratic", can't "Israeli" colonizers just bring more of their co-ethnics to Palestine to outnumber and out vote the indigenous population, and restore Zionist fascist control? Furthermore, given that 98% of "Israelis" hold genocidal ethno-supremacist views to which they are fanatically committed, the idea that they will suddebly have a change of heart and peacefully agree to such a solution in the first place is UTTERLY preposterous!
In reality, there is only solution: for the Palestinian people to wage a fanatical struggle to the death against the colonizers, with the unconditional support and solidarity of all the world's anti-imperialist fighting peoples, after which the Zionist colonizers will be given the same ultimatum that the French "pieds-noirs" were given by the Algerian freedom fighters upon their victory: the suitcase or the coffin! The Zionists must be driven out of all of Palestine, dead or alive, and the one state solution will be a free and socialist Palestine for the indigenous Palestinians. From the river to the see, Palestine will be free, and it's time we stop cucking out and actually MEAN that.
No.1801435
>proceeds to fail
No.1801462
This is a crazy oversimplification.
No.1801471
>>1801409a single state solution is fine provided that single state is hamas.
No.1801472
>outside of the general thread'
didnt read
No.1801566
Oy vey the working class have no nation!
No.1801577
>>1801409Let me know how that works out for you.
No.1801625
>>1801409Not exactly a realistic solution OP.
No.1801634
>>1801566Nazitard, read Marx
>Thus I hold the view that there are two nations in Europe which do not only have the right but the duty to be nationalistic before they become internationalists: the Irish and the Poles. They are internationalists of the best kind if they are very nationalistic. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1882/letters/82_02_07.htm No.1802285
Hello, fellow Leftists. I think we should we should support the extermination of all Jews in Palestine. This is the obvious goal of the Palestianians, and we should go a long with supporting such a oppressed people in succeding in their goal. From the River to the Sea!
No.1802291
This is not a serious proposal. The pied noirs were French settlers who can simply return to France, Algeria was a traditional colony. Israel isn't just a traditional colony, it is a settler colony; which means you have a settled nation there that was not connected to any particular imperial core nation. Especially in the case of Israel, with Jews coming them from every countries and races imaginable; where would you tell the jews to take their suitcases to? The US? Germany? Would any European nations be willing to host brown and black jews?
This means that your scenario would de facto lead Jews to be scattered among the nations once again, and we know where that scenarion ended the last time we tried it; Auschwitz, Babyn Yar, Dachau.
Jews would rather fight to the last man, woman and children than accept that conclusion. And yes, this includes the possibility of them using the Samson Option. It would be like the Battle of Berlin with nukes.
If the oppressed nations are willing to see this through, then so be it. But it will certainly require more than performative online badassery .
No.1802301
>>1801566The working class is its own nation. People with the same material condition thinks, acts and dies the same way, despite difference in ethnicity, intelligence, religion, or anything
No.1802474
Note that 21% of jewish israelis have dual citizenship. The racist ones will just pack up and leave a la south africa
No.1802538
>>1802291>This means that your scenario would de facto lead Jews to be scattered among the nations once again, and we know where that scenarion ended the last time we tried it; Auschwitz, Babyn Yar, Dachau. lol
yeah dude no diaspora can exist in the world without getting genocided
No.1802586
>fedposting
No.1802628
>>1802291cool story ziocel, the settlers are still getting killed
No.1802693
>>1801409Who cares?
You're not Palestinian, it's up to them.
No.1804391
>>1802628>the settlers are still getting killedAny day now!!!
No.1804397
>>1801409People are allowed to move to a country dipshit
No.1804404
>>1801409Rojava should occupy Jordania, Turkey and Palestine.
No.1804522
>>1801471>that single state is hamas.awful opinion. hamas are shit. just because they can put up some armed resistance doesn't make them fit to govern a country
No.1804525
>>1804522The alternative is Fatah, who are so corrupt and collaborationist that their armed wing officially broke ties with them years ago
No.1804687
'leftists' only have to condemn the genocide not resort to muh blood soil shit lol
No.1804757
>>1804687Those are islamists trying to do entryism. Just ignore them.
No.1804775
THERE IS ONLY ONE SOLUTION
ANOTHER HAITIAN REVOLUTION
No.1804974
>>1804525the PFLP is still around and active along with various other palestinian militant groups, hamas is merely the one with the most guns because they have rich contacts in the gulf states and saudi arabia
No.1804992
>>1804974>hamas is merely the one with the most guns because they have rich contacts in the gulf states and saudi arabiaAnd also thry have the largest social base.
No.1805232
>>1801409I suspect OP might have an unfortunate case of serious brain damage (campism).
See, we as leftists understand that the sins of settler colonialism, as demonstrated by Israel during this Gaza War, are primarily expressed in ethnic cleansing and indiscriminate violence. We oppose these things on principle based on the premium we put on the dignity of the global proletariat, and so our opposition to colonial imperialism is derived from our principled opposition to the mechanics imperialism entails.
Therefore, it's absurd at best to say similar acts are permissible if not justified from our side so long as they're done to our enemies. To believe this, we have to shed the opposition to these actions, and in so doing remove the entire reason we consider these colonial imperialists to be our enemy.
So, nazi punks fuck off, low_tier_god.svg
No.1805237
>>1805232>violence against the oppressor is the same as violence against the oppressedOff yourself, lib
No.1805387
>>1805237Yeah but it has to be constructive violence. To build somthing better, not the same old religious shit but with another logo.
No.1805394
>>1805387>same old religious shitislamism is a thorougly modernist movement
No.1805413
>>1805394Not since the soviet union fell.
No.1805478
>>1805427WAHHHH BUT MUH ROOTLESS COSMOPOLITANS THO
No.1805480
>>1805427>waaaaaah, somebody think of the poor settlersi bet you would cry for amerikkkans if natives finally genocided them
No.1805489
>>1805480>nativesWhere are they tho? There is no use in crying over spilled milk. The Palestine genocide is happening right now tho. So it's not too late yet for a secularist state and the persecution of zionists.
No.1805493
>>1805489in their concentration camps
No.1805500
>>1805478>>1805480stop pretending to be communists lol
No.1805525
>>1805500Peter Griffin here. This poster right here
>>1805478 is actually making fun of "communists" obsessed with anti-americanism and global south capitalists.
No.1805595
>>1805591Funny someone like this would post, I was quite literally just thinking about how leftypol 4 years ago would try to tell us thst settler-colonialism didn't exist and is a sakaist plot which should be banned this instance for idpol.
No.1805605
>>1805595It sure doesn't exist now that capitalism has solidified itself across the whole world. Really shows you how far down this place has fallen when third-worldism libshittery is the norm.
No.1805860
>>1805591>arbitrarilykys ziorat
No.1807473
>>1805605genuinely how would you describe israels geopolitical without talking about settlers and colonialism
No.1807549
>>1807473i think the issue is claiming oppressed nations need 'freedom' (ie its own independent bourgeois state) instead of fighting for all of the proletariat to stop waging wars for the bourgeois
the israel-palestine situation is too fucked to have a nice solution imho especially from a communist pov
No.1807564
>>1801409the solution to the Zionist problem is simple:
1. immediate dissolution of all illegal Zionist constructs, ie "the state of Israel"
2. the nationwide enforcement of a ban on all Zionist and Zionist sympathizing groups, ie Likud, lehi larpers, kahanists etc
3. the creations of state organs for a temporary "caretaker" Palestine gov, comprising all contiguous territory of mandatory Palestine, ceding the Golan heights to Syria, who may do as they wish with them. this state will need be a one-party limited democracy that is constitutionally socialist, atheist, progressive, and Arab. the constitution also must include that the citizens of this Arab Palestine are "those who reside within it independent of race, class, religion, or creed"
4. the re-adoption of United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379
5. implementation of a nationwide "dezionification" policy modelled after the denazification of Germany within the soviet occupation zone, any citizens found to have willingly participated in or associated with aforementioned banned Zionist and Zionist sympathizing groups may be interned as their assets and those of the Zionist entities are nationalized and redistributed, as well as be given mandatory re-education and sensitivity training, before being re-introduced to the civic populace.
6. and of course, from the start, a rigorous guarantee of Palestinian right of return, as-well as freedom of movement for all citizens of this Palestine to immigrate or emmigrate provided they have not been interned for zionist crimes or found guilty there-of.
No.1807575
>>1807549>The Communist International must enter into a temporary alliance with bourgeois democracy in the colonies and backward countries, but should not merge with it, and should under all circumstances uphold the independence of the proletarian movement, even if it is in its most embryonic form
>First, that all Communist parties must assist the bourgeois-democratic liberation movement in these countries, and that the duty of rendering the most active assistance rests primarily with the workers of the country the backward nation is colonially or financially dependent on;
>The colonial and semi-colonial nations, we said, account for 1,000 million people, and P. Kievsky has not taken the trouble to refute that concrete statement. Of these 1,000 million, more than 700 million (China, India, Persia, Egypt) live in countries where there are workers. But even with regard to colonial countries where there are no workers, only slave-owners and slaves, etc., the demand for “self-determination”, far from being absurd, is obligatory hit every Marxist
>We demand from our governments that they quit the colonies, or, to put it in precise political terms rather than in agitational outcries—that they grant the colonies full freedom of secession, the genuine right to self-determination, and we ourselves are sure to implement this right, and grant this freedom, as soon as we capture power. We demand this from existing governments, and will do this when we are the government, not in order to “recommend” secession, but, on the contrary, in order to facilitate and accelerate the democratic association and merging of nations. We shall exert every effort to foster association and merger with the Mongolians, Persians, Indians, Egyptians. We believe it is our duty and in our interest to do this, for otherwise socialism in Europe will not be secure. We shall endeavour to render these nations, more backward and oppressed than we are, “disinterested cultural assistance”, to borrow the happy expression of the Polish Social-Democrats. In other words, we will help them pass to the use of machinery, to the lightening of labour, to democracy, to socialism.
>If we demand freedom of secession for the Mongolians. Persians, Egyptians and all other oppressed and unequal nations without exception, we do so not because we favour secession, but only because we stand for free, voluntary association and merging as distinct from forcible association. That is the only reason!Lenin
No.1807694
>>1807688that's right sweaty, israel is socialist because there's ummmmm *checks notes* gay fascist settlers and female war criminals
No.1807724
>>1807688The later was crushed their still remains a chance to end the zionist entity in the former.
No.1807751
>>1807688israel is not socialist though, do you have trouble following conversations?
No.1807753
>>1807564>this state will need be a one-party limited democracy that is constitutionally socialist, atheist, progressive, and ArabNonsense of the highest degree
No.1807756
>>1807575>First, that all Communist parties must assist the bourgeois-democratic liberation movement in these countriesBro his own bolshevik reolution proved that wrong. i bet he wrote that before 1917.
No.1808069
>>1807580that is why lenin said that national liberation can only be supported up to a certain point, until independence is achieved before the national bourgeoisie begin to cling to their new power.
No.1808071
>>1807756russia didn't have a liberation movement. it wasn't some protectorate or country occupied by a great power. it was the one doing the oppressing.
No.1808072
>>1808071Russia was a backward country however even though it was among the gang of imperialist country, not unlike today…
No.1808073
>>1802291>This means that your scenario would de facto lead Jews to be scattered among the nations once again, and we know where that scenarion ended the last time we tried it; Auschwitz, Babyn Yar, Dachau. You had me until you threw in this insane statement. Absolutely retarded.
No.1808075
No solutions are realistic because Palestinians are getting genocide to the last baby right now. Debates about one state, two state, one ethno state, etc are too little too late. It's over. Israël will win if we look at the concrete solution on the ground. There is no Red Army to stop the imperialist from their genocide.
No.1808077
>>1808075Addition: Also debates over which form of state is the most ethically sound is useless.
The left should have had debates on how to win with the goal of stopping the genocide, not debates on which state is the most ethical, as they continue to do now.
Wars arent won with ideals but with plans.
No.1808105
>>1805480Lol all 6 of them
No.1808119
>>1805525Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they're in good company.
There are thousands of "communists" who unironically believe this, and plenty post here.
No.1808124
The Westoid Left might never get over its dogmatism and failure to move beyond the 18th century outdated prescriptions. Better 100 Palestinian capitalists and even possibly nationalists than all the reactionary ,cosmopolitanoid leftists who pretend to internationalism in the world, the handmaidens of Zionism. History shall crush them inevitaubly, as every reactionary movement has been.
No.1808147
>>1808124>cosmopolitanoid Self-report
No.1808149
Barkeeper, another cosmo, please
No.1808647
>>1808103i bet you think the renaissance was an antique movement because they liked ancient greece a lot
No.1809042
>>1801409What's the relevant distinction between this and Israeli settler-colonialism? Why should I prefer the ethnic cleansing of the Israelis to the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? Who specifically should be kicked out anyway? The Israeli citizens, including the Israeli Arabs? The Jews, including the Jewish Palestinians? This is nationalist nonsense.
What is needed for Israel-Palestine is the reconstruction treatment. Forced integration is the only solution. Full voting rights for all Palestinians living in the occupied territories. One democratic government for the whole region. Religious favoritism must be completely abolished. Marriage must be secularized, and interfaith marriage must be legalized.
American mid-century desegregation is an excellent model. Integrate the neighborhoods. Every school must be equal parts Arab and Jewish, even if it means longer school bus commutes. The whole country will be bilingual in Arabic and Hebrew. The government can't even represent two nations. It should represent zero. An international peace-keeping force will occupy the country to prevent acts of revenge or ethnic violence, similar to the situation in post-war Bosnia. A Singaporean mandatorily mixed-ethnicity public housing policy would be ideal. Every apartment complex should have minimum number of Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians.
Children should forget what ethnicity they're supposed to be. Orthodox grandparents should watch their kids become gay atheists in polyamorous relationships with two arabs and a Chinese immigrant (high rates of immigration may be useful to permanently prevent an ethnic majority). The older generation should live in permanent shame at their bloodthirsty ideology and the damage it caused. Arab teenagers should print out very small copies of the quran and tie them to the bottom of their shoes so they step on their god with every step. Jews should tattoo swastikas on their arms just to get a laugh out of their friends. Every future that deviates from this one, even by a millimeter, will fail to result in peace.
No.1809296
>>1809042>The Israeli citizens, including the Israeli Arabs?yes
>The Jews, including the Jewish Palestinians?uyghur are you really this stupid or are you pretending?
No.1819336
>>1808124Least anti communist Chavez supporter
No.1819475
Socialism is when you have an ethnostate. And the purer and more homogenous it is, the more communister it beoomes
>Muh settlers
Bitch, where is some Jewish kid that was born this century going to go?
How the fuck are the descendants of Palestinians going to """return""" to their ancestral family homes when there's 10x as many Palestinians as there were 80 years ago?
Do you chauvinistic, christarded libs ever think any of this through, or do you just enjoy masturbating of suffering and martyrdom? (So pure! So moral!)
Nothing about being a "victim" makes your struggle moral, sensible or socialist
>Muh native genocide
>Muh holocaust
>Muh dresden
>Muh nakba
>Muh holodom
>Muh poor innocent Rhodesian white farmers
Don't care. They're dead. Move the fuck on
No.1819478
>>1808073It was nonsense already before. It‘s not a mystery where these Jews can go given that the majority of them come from Europe or the US. Plus, since when are Jewish people nowadays disallowed from immigrating or getting asylum in the West? It‘s not the 1930s.
No.1819480
>>1805387Palestinian violence is motivated by their colonial oppression, not by their religion. uygha really tried this Islamophobic divergence tactic that misrepresents the conflict to delegitamize Palestinian resistance.
No.1819482
>>1805591>arbitraryYou mean economic relations..?
No.1819484
>>1819475>Socialism is when you have an ethnostate.Who ever said Palestinians should get an ethnostate? It‘s incredible that we still have to address this fallacious, misrepresenting argument when it comes to colonial struggle. No decolonial struggle ever resulted in an ethnostate.
>Bitch, where is some Jewish kid that was born this century going to go?Schlomo can fuck off back to whatever Western country their grandparents came from before they changed their last name to sound indigenous to Palestinian land.
No.1819486
>>1819484You're right. That you're defending a bourgeois nation-state over another as a "communist" is retarded enough, no need to call it an ethnostate.
No.1819487
>>1819484>SchlomoOh nevermind, my mind slipped past this. Very subtle.
No.1819488
>>1819482>economic relations? Do you also defend small business owners against the haute bourgeoisie? Same logic.
No.1819489
>>1819486>That you're defending a bourgeois nation-state over anotherAnother recurring retarded argument. We are not going to move from settler-colonialism to socialism straight away. Under such a state neither the colonized nor the colonizer will choose socialism because of their imminent material conditions defined by settler-colonialism. Therefore, the colonial struggle in the form of a nationalist movement must come first, any potential socialism can only come after.
No.1819491
>>1819488You are deeply retarded to think the two are equivalent. The mere fact that you put a question mark at „economic relations“ is very telling on its own. Where do you think you are?
No.1819797
>>1801409>In reality, there is only solution: for the Palestinian people to wage a fanatical struggle to the death against the colonizers,This is death cultism.
No.1823119
best solution? single atheist workers state
Unique IPs: 53