/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Kurwa

>All the arrests, deportations and murders of intellectuals, artists, journalists, political figures, clergymen, military personnel
So like 4% of the pop while 96% had it good?

>The two invasions launched against us by the Soviets.
What two invasions? In the 1921 Polish-Soviet war the Poles attacked first. In 1939 the alternative was for the Nazis to take the whole country. Do I need to remind you that the Nazis literally didn't consider Poles to be human beings and were planning to completely eradicate them? You literally owe the continued existence of your nation to the Soviet Union.
>All the arrests, deportations and murders of intellectuals, artists, journalists, political figures, clergymen, military personnel, et cetera.
That's what a revolution is fam, the purging of the rulers, propagandists, and enforcers of the old society. It's the only way human society improves.
>The undemocratic imposition of socialism on Poland
Poland was already a dictatorship when the Soviets got there. More accurately it was a soon to be depopulated German province that they saved from annihilation.
>What reason is there for us to even consider a return to this system, when we've been burned by it so badly?
It's the system that turned you from an agrarian backwater into a modern industrialized nation and saved you from extermination.

t. Polish diaspora spawn

>>1803620
>4% of the population
That "4%" comprised the artistic, political, philosophical, spiritual core of the nation. If someone shot Shostakovich in the head in 1950, I do believe the average Soviet worker would've been deeply affected by it.
>the rest had it good
Yeah, aside from all the deportations from Kresy to completely unfamilliar, "new" (newly annexed from Germany) parts of Poland. All the confiscation of private property (not just from the "evil bourgies", but from farmers, working people, middle class city dwellers, etc). The removal of democratic power from the hands of the people (not that the IIRP was a shining beacon of democracy). The introduction of censorship. All the deportations to Siberia for mere association with pre-war political or military structures (that includes virtually all Polish armymen who didn't join the Red Army upon being captured in 1939. These men had families back home.), et cetera.

I honestly don't think that the opinion of poles matter. They always adopt the ideology of those who rule over them.

>>1803631
>i honestly dont think democracy matters when introducing a supposedly "democratic" political system
Okay.

>>1803630
>That "4%" comprised the artistic, political, philosophical, spiritual core of the nation.
The core of the rule of landowners, capitalists, and clergy you mean.
>Yeah, aside from all the deportations from Kresy to completely unfamilliar, "new" (newly annexed from Germany) parts of Poland.
Maybe Poland shouldn't have attacked the USSR and annexed majority non-Polish lands then.
>not just from the "evil bourgies", but from farmers, working people, middle class city dwellers
doubt.jpg
>The removal of democratic power from the hands of the people
Poland was not a democracy before the war.

>>1803618
Not trying to prove a point, just wanted to show what i did find of the thoughts of Marx and Lenin about the polish nation

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1882/letters/82_02_07.htm

We communist love the poles, specially the proletarian poles. As marx said once:

"Thus I hold the view that there are two nations in Europe which do not only have the right but the duty to be nationalistic before they become internationalists: the Irish and the Poles. They are internationalists of the best kind if they are very nationalistic. The Poles have understood this in all crises and have proved it on the battlefields of all revolutions. Take away their expectation to re-establish Poland; or persuade them that the new Poland will soon fall into their laps by itself, and they are finished with their interest in the European Revolution.

We, in particular, have no reason whatever to block their irrefutable striving for independence. In the first place, they have invented and applied in 1863 the method of fighting which the Russians are now imitating with such great success (see Berlin und Petersburg, appendix 2); and secondly they were the only reliable and capable lieutenants in the Paris Commune.

Who are, by the way, the people who fight against the nationalist strivings of the Poles? Firstly the European bourgeois with whom the Poles have lost all credit since the insurrection of 1846 with its socialist tendencies; and secondly the Russian Panslavists and people influenced by them, such as Proudhon who looked through the coloured glasses of Herzen. Among the Russians, even the best, there are today only very few who are free from Panslavist leanings or memories. They are so firmly convinced of the Panslavist mission of Russia, as the French are of the innate revolutionary initiative of France. But in truth Panslavism is a smokescreen for world dominion, appearing in the cloak of a non-existent Slavic nationality, and therefore our, as well as the Russian people’s, worst enemy. "

Quoting Lenin, in 1916, https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1943/05/04.htm:

"All those who want to stand for the freedom of nations, for the right of nations to self-determination, not hypocritically, not in the Südekum, Plekhanov, Kautsky fashion, but sincerely, must be opposed to the war because of the oppression of Poland; they must be in favour of the right of secession from Russia for those nations which Russia is now, oppressing: the Ukraine, Finland, etc. Those who do not wish to be social-chauvinists in deeds must support only those elements in the Socialist Parties of all countries which are frankly, directly and immediately working for the proletarian revolution in their own countries.

Not “peace without annexations,” but peace to the cottages, war on the palaces; peace to the proletariat and the toiling masses, war on the bourgeoisie!"

>>1803626
The Soviets launched a full scale offensive not just against Poland, but all the other newly formed states in the area. 1918 was an act of Soviet aggression.
>in 1939, it was either invade, or let the nazis take all of it
Is that was Stalin had in mind when agreeing to Ribbentrop's proposal?
"Germans wish to invade Poland, so instead of doing anything to assist Poles (even if that entails merely informing them of an imminent nazi invasion), we should instead help the nazis?"
I think he was merely interested in grabbing free land.
>massacring the intelligentsia of a nation is good if its revolutionary
Thoughts on Generalplan Ost and the German extermination of captured Soviet intellectuals?
>Poland wasnt democratic so its OK that Stalin established a similarly undemocratic government apparatus there
Do I even need to address this?
>the USSR saved you and industrialised you
The USSR stabbed us in the back, ruined all of our defensive stratagems against Germany (ie. the retreat to Sarny), and no, it did not "industrialise" us. Poland in the Interbellum years was growing rapidly on its own, thanks to the policies of men like Kwiatkowski. The USSR's "economic rearrangement" left us deprived of wealth and potential.

>>1803618
>murders of intellectuals, artists, journalists, political figures, clergymen, military personnel,
Idk anon sounds based.
Why shouldn't this kind of assorted freaks and nobody be shot?

>>1803649
>The USSR stabbed us in the back
The bat s to obvious anon.

>>1803636
It's so very easy to dehumanise potential threats to your system by calling them "evil capitalist landowners", no? All the artists arrested and/or murdered by the NKVD (eg. Bodo), the thinkers, engineers, activists, etc. All of them were totally evil little capitalists who deserved to be shot behind the ear in a damp basement.
>Poland shouldnt have attacked the USSR
It didn't.
>doubt
https://www.polskieradio.pl/39/156/artykul/2437410,czerwona-szarancza-jak-sowieci-grabili-wyzwalane-tereny

>>1803650
>i-it sounds BASED!
Oh. Alright, well, I guess if it "sounds based", then Poles should be glad it happened.
The culture of Poland got irreparably crippled for decades? "Sounds based".
Go to Poland and proclaim to all the proletarians, how "based" murdering their cultural figures sounds. I'm sure the nation will vote socialists back into power in no time.

>>1803649
>The Soviets launched a full scale offensive not just against Poland, but all the other newly formed states in the area. 1918 was an act of Soviet aggression.
The USSR allowed the secession of Poland in 1918 without protest, hostilities began when the Poles attacked in 1921, which is when they captured the majority non-Polish territory that the Soviets reclaimed in 1939.
>Is that was Stalin had in mind when agreeing to Ribbentrop's proposal?
Whether it had that in mind isn't really relevant. It was the objective reality of the situation.
>Germans wish to invade Poland, so instead of doing anything to assist Poles
Stalin had been begging Britain, France, and Poland to form a grand anti-Nazi alliance for years, and was constantly rebuffed. If the Poles and their allies had agreed to such an alliance the war could have been avoided altogether, or at least contained in scope. In fact in 1938 the Soviets asked Poland to allow the transit of Soviet troops across their country to fight the Germans in Czechoslovakia, and not only did Poland refuse, but they partitioned Czechoslovakia along with the Germans. The Soviets signed a pact with Germany as a last ditch effort to delay and prepare for war when it was clear that nobody else had any interest in seriously confronting Nazism.
>Thoughts on Generalplan Ost and the German extermination of captured Soviet intellectuals?
It was bad obviously, and is not remotely similar to what the Soviets did in Poland. There's a qualitative difference between purging the intelligentsia of a reactionary society (aiming of course to replace it with a revolutionary one) and trying to exterminate an entire people. It's the difference between revolution and genocide.
>Do I even need to address this?
The point is that it's nonsensical to whine about the Soviets imposing a dictatorship on Poland because it was already a dictatorship. The Poles didn't have democracy taken from them. Moreover a socialist dictatorship is better than a capitalist one.
>ruined all of our defensive stratagems against Germany (ie. the retreat to Sarny)
That's delusional, there is no way Poland would have been able to hold out against the Germans, and the Polish government had already fled the country by the time the Soviets invaded. Their only hope for survival would have been an alliance with the Soviets which they rejected.
>it did not "industrialise" us. Poland in the Interbellum years was growing rapidly on its own
>The USSR's "economic rearrangement" left us deprived of wealth and potential.
That's speculative and impossible to prove, you could just as easily have ended up some Greece-tier backwater beholden to Western Europe. More accurately without Soviet intervention you wouldn't exist at all. The fact is that Poland became an industrialized nation under communist rule.

>>1803659
>Oh. Alright, well, I guess if it "sounds based", then Poles should be glad it happened
You sound like a faggot crying about dead bobos
>The culture of Poland got irreparably crippled for decades?
It is their culture, the bourgeois, the church, it is not your culture retard.
Get some self respect and stop shilling nationalist AIDs.

>>1803655
>All the artists arrested and/or murdered by the NKVD (eg. Bodo), the thinkers, engineers, activists, etc. All of them were totally evil little capitalists who deserved to be shot behind the ear in a damp basement.
They weren't capitalists, but they were the intellectual backbone of Polish bourgeois society.
>It didn't.
<In 1919, while the Soviet Red Army was still preoccupied with the Russian Civil War of 1917–1922, the Polish Army moved into territories regarded by many Poles as Polish "Kresy". That year, they took most of present-day Lithuania and Belarus. By July 1919, Polish forces had taken control of much of Eastern Galicia and had emerged victorious from the Polish–Ukrainian War of November 1918 to July 1919.
<Piłsudski believed that the best way for Poland to secure favorable borders was by military action and that he could easily defeat the Red Army forces. His Kiev offensive commenced in late April 1920 and resulted in the takeover of Kiev by Polish and allied Ukrainian forces on 7 May.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Soviet_War

>>1803665
>>1803655
>It is their culture, the bourgeois, the church, it is not your culture retard.
This, get some class consciousness m8. The culture of bourgeois society is designed to justify and perpetuate the domination of the exploiting classes. It isn't your culture, it's the culture of your class enemies that profit from your labour.

>>1803659
>The culture of Poland got irreparably crippled for decades? "Sounds based".
(liberal sputtering) "You really hate journos??? absurd! ridiculous! unfathomable!!!"
>Go to Poland and proclaim to all the proletarians,
❌ Sorry but the fact Polish working class do not see themselves as the same people as other international workers means they are by definition not class conscious proletarians who are aware of their collective power to drive history forward. You can't have it both ways!

Poland was an anti-democratic nationalist dictatorship that was rapidly moving towards fascism in the late 30s, compulsively oppressed the population of the occupied eastern territories and engaged in military settler colonialism of their land after an imperialist landgrab in 1919.
The soviets were doing the best thing they could which is secure and protect those lands inhabited by their own nationalities from the fascist advance. The nazi-abetting polish government didn't want any help from the soviets, for them or anyone else. Why the fuck should the soviets have jumped in to defend a state totally hostile to them, occupying their lands and oppressing their people, who out of hand refused to help save the czechs from nazism when the soviets offered to do that. The polish government preferred to join in the dismantling of that state instead, curious.
The feverishly reactionary and delusional army officer ghouls who made up the sanation government dug their own graves and im glad the soviets put them in them at Katyn.

The PRL was basically fucking doomed from the start and staffed with the absolute dregs of polish communism, the cadres of which were exterminated by the polish government, the soviets and the nazis in turn, but they still did as good a job as could be expected given the conditions despite the many mistaken policies and excesses. You're crazy if you think that the industrialisation and modernisation pre-war was anything like what the PZPR did to this country. It was night and day. Eliminating illiteracy, introducing universal education, turning a country where the rural/urban split was 80/20 to 20/80 in 4 years. The PRL was for a time the height of polish achievement, culture and economic prosperity. Didn't stop the seething reactionaries from assassinating schoolteachers out of their sheer hatred for the polish working masses.

As for contemporary public opinion, it's no different than in any capitalist country, we're in an era of blackest reaction and the propaganda that has shaped public opinion for decades is omnipresent, as is the tainted memories of those who only lived through the final decade of the PRL. Things will change as the triumphalist anti-communists who have been in charge since die off and conditions change. Polish workers will be no less revolutionary than any others in the world.

>>1803618
You sound exactly like our resident ancap. Same writing style, tone etc. This is obvious bait and all I will say is this:
The soviets gave you too much freedom to do what you want out of a weird sense of guilt for "poor poland". This fetishization of poland also happened to ukraine. It was fashionable you see to pay homage to "brave long-suffering pollacks" so we let Jaruczelski deal with your mess as opposed to '56 and '68. It seems you are arguing with a demented polish nationalist. There is nothing you can do to convince him to like communism because nationalists of all flavors imagine themselves as future warlords so communism is antithetical to their goals. The executions, gulags etc do not actually bother a nationalist. A nationalist wants to do all those things but to his own enemies. If you are an average person, sure it was alright for them but most people are not satisifed with good enough. They want some grandiose myths to keep them going otherwise the banality of reality will drive them nuts.

>>1803640
Lenin was wrong. Small nations can only survive in the context of big empires. Small nations either kill each other or amalgamate into something bigger. Only big empires can treat small nations as actual countries and isolate them from the anarchy of geopolitics.

>muh nation-state that didn't exist until the 19th century is important
nationalism is cancer

>>1803659
>will vote socialists into power
co kurwa

>>1803618
If you're not trolling, then I can only say that it will become increasingly clear why you should be a communist over the coming years. Or you'll just devolve into a blood frenzy against both foreigners and fellow Poles, which is way more likely considering most people are already there.

Ultimately, it is up to you to choose.

On one side you have a reactionary state that is doing repressions against all minorities in the interest if "promoting Polish culture", crushing dissent, opportunistically cooperating with the Nazis to take a tiny part of Czechoslovakia, and has very little industrial and economic growth if you remember that the USSR is next door. But it is "independent" and "national", our great national Polish intelligentsia can write whatever they want as long as it's not communist, Ukrainian, Belarusian, or unpatriotic in general.

On the other side you have a socialist state that recovered and grew massively, didn't do national repression, didn't opportunistically cooperate for a crumb of land, but was instead working for a better world for all humankind.

>>1803618
Katyn was done by Nazis. Poles had massive collaborator force with Germans, with British alone capturing around 60 thousand Polish POWs, and Poland has spent all it's post-communist existance trying to forget that the heroes they glorify were Nazi collaborators

Also, Anders' army, according to British propositions, was supposed to be put on the Eastern Front around Stalingrad in 1942. Stalin refused, and as a result we didn't have Nazis capturing Stalingrad

>>1803655
CHŁOP CYTUJE POLSKIE RADIO JA KURWA NIE WYTRZTMAM XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Dawaj dalej papanon, zalinkuj mi jeszcze kurwa IPN XDDD

>red yoke?
Stopped reading right there

>>1803679
Another thing is that Poland supported anti-Soviet nationalists and the balkanization of the USSR was one of the objectives of Poland's interwar foreign policy.
>Things will change as the triumphalist anti-communists who have been in charge since die off and conditions change.
Wish I had your optimism. Most of the newer generation of Polish politicians seem to think that Poland's greatest mistake was not allying with Nazi Germany. Pic related.

>>1803618
Nationalism is the opium of the masses.

take great notice of how OP has scuttled away without saying a single word, as soon as his point was proven wrong

>>1803618
>>1803626
What he ^ said.
Also, socialism rebuilt your cultural sites with Soviet aid, whereas in the West they built only disgusting concrete deserts and shopping malls, selling useless junk.
Literally everything that can be seen in Pooland today minus the ugly skyscrapers, was built/rebuilt by socialism. Thanks to all the socialist infrastructure, your country hasn't devolved into an even worse, third world, shithole. You should be thankful, you ingrate.
>Muh clergymen
LMAO! They weren't repressed hard enough! Filthy Christcuck!

Typical Poolack brainrot.

>>1803618
>Can any one of you explain why Poles should entertain communism as a serious solution to the evils of capitalism

The production of worldviews is not a linear topic as if we propose your 'morality' as our eternal mediator to take place in and resolve things. Perhaps there is no objective 'evil' to talk about, but dialectical unities and disunities in the history.

>All the arrests, deportations and murders of intellectuals, artists, journalists, political figures, clergymen, military personnel, et cetera. The undemocratic imposition of socialism on Poland, the shutting down of dissidents, and so on.

Democracy is a hollow phrase that the libs glorify as an end of the state form while the state and its mechanisms itself is an authority, an imposed will in its own.

Read
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm

>violently sperging out against a nation, its culture and identity, and therefore its proletariat.

The culture and identity will be erased, no exceptions, itz kill or be killed mein friend and we were distressed bolsheviki surrounded by polish philistines.

communism is when a single bourgeois nation-state invades another, duh

>>1803846
Excellent work, comrades. Another victory against the eternal Poolack!

>>1803843
I don't think that's quite true, and Gursztyn is precisely the sort I mean when I talk about the generation who lived through only the end of the PRL and have been in charge since.

>>1803618
>wahwah muh evil soviets
you need to go back
and kill yourself while you're at it, we have 0 interest in entertaining reactionary fucks like you that just look for an excuse to suck their porkies cock