/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

1. there is a general for this
2. read milciades peña
3. if you can't read that at least read the galasso/altamira debate

He was a progressive Fascist.

I recommend checking out the Study Fascism General for some more insight.

>>1803692
Authoritarian capitalism

>>1803847
are you one of those people who describe fascism as basically "when theres violence :)"

>>1803828
Nonsense. Unless you're talking about his alliance with the right in his second term which wasn't progressive at all.
He admired fascism from the beginning because of the fascist propaganda about capital and labor happily working hand-in-hand but that's not what fascism is in actuality. That's just the mythology that masks the real control being by the haute bourgeoisie and the social basis being the petit bourgeoisie.
The social basis of Peron was not the dominant ruling class of the military that ousted him and tried to reverse his industrialization policies. You can say that him doing things like expanding labor protections or expanding suffrage to woman was done for self-serving reasons, but that doesn't change the social basis for Peron's first term being those elements that greatly benefited from said policies; the poor peasants and proletariat.

>>1803860
Going to have to go to work, but suffice it to say I disagree with this notion that Peron wasn't a Fascist or that Fascism couldn't be, in some aspects, progressive. I'll try to explain more later, but for now I'll just say that nothing Peron really did contradicted Fascism as envisioned by Italian Fascists.

>>1803860
The same could be said for much of the reforms of ᴉuᴉlossnW, Togliatti admitted as much:
>We must accept that the elements of strength in Fascism do not lie only in violence and in the apparat. This dictatorship has done something — not just by means of violence…It has done something even for the workers and the young. We cannot deny that the introduction of social security is a fact.

>>1803881
I believe it was George Bernard Shaw that once said as a “red hot communist” he supported Mosley.

The whole point of my research into Fascism was to give people a better understanding of it and, importantly, serve as a warning—that Fascism can be appealing. It seems my warning has fallen on deaf ears.

Honestly we’re wholly unprepared to face real, ideological Fascism—intellectually at least. I was thinking back to a poster I saw by Goebbels, it was advertising the SA and KPD collaborating in a general strike. My fear is that some idiots will look at that and just say “Naw, these guys aren’t fascist! They’re promoting a general strike!”

>>1803692
fascist piece of shit. dont believe social democratic lies, his and his movements history is very warped by bourgeois academics and lack of class consciousness
didnt manage to establish fascism in argentina though, but he tried to. all he could do is become a bonapartist
>>1803860
>that doesn't change the social basis for Peron's first term being those elements that greatly benefited from said policies; the poor peasants and proletariat
debatable. peron tortured, killed and repressed many strikers and working class activists. this of course in hand with concessions to co-opt the restless proletariat resistance. in the 70s he came back to end his task; to erradicate communism in argentina

im leaving this small pamphlet for spanish readers and a video and an interview for people who can interpret spoken spanish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG9HDZVOCD0
http://sedici.unlp.edu.ar/handle/10915/26926

>>1803863
> Image
Lol, too little to late baldy

David Guetta's greatest remix, imo

>>1804182
To be fair to the guy, there was some genuinely interesting shit happening in the Italian Social Republic, IIRC there were actually workers councils established and talks of a legalized socialist party forming the opposition.

>>1804220
youre a fucking idiot, go back

>>1804244
/pol/ isn't smart enough for bombacciites as dumb as they are

>>1804341
>bombacciites
What language is that?

>>1804343
It's a reference to Nicola Bombacci, one of the founders of the Italian Communist Party who later underwent a profound change to his worldview and allied with ᴉuᴉlossnW. In the later years of ᴉuᴉlossnW's reign, he became one of his closest allies and helped him shape some of the Italian Social Republic's economic policy, including massive nationalizations, the formation of workers councils, massive union drives, etcetera.

He falls firmly in the camp of Left Fascists, and when he was executed by Partisans his last words were "Long Live Socialism"

Peronism is fascism for politically illiterate retards who want to be reformists in the closet

>>1803863
>Ahh always believe what politicians say instead of what they do ahhh
kill yourself
>>1804220
>MUH ITALIAN SOCIAL REPUBLIC
lies and disinfo as per usual
>>1804345
>Traitors selling out means fascism is communist approved guiz!!!11

>>1804353
THE ITALIAN SOCIAL REPUBLIC WAS SO BASED THAT NOTHING WAS NATIONALIZED AND WORKERS WERE LITERALLY GOING ON STRIKE AND FIGHTING AGAINST MUSSOLINI'S PARAMILITARY GOONS WHILE THE GERMANS WERE TRYING TO RUN THINGS IN THE BACKGROUND

fucking fascists who never read a single history book in their entire lives besides speeches from mussolini and hitler trying to constantly gaslight socialists and communists into thinking fascism as "third position" can fuck off

>>1804355
No one is gaslighting you. CPUSAnon was just saying that Perons vision isn't much different than the fascist vision that ᴉuᴉlossnW had.

>>1804353
>>1804355
You don't understand. If it wasn't for those damned communist partizans, ᴉuᴉlossnW would have pushed the "socialism with Italian characteristic" button and all the Mediterranean would have been red.

>>1804382
>socialism with Italian characteristic
The worst part about discourse on China is ultra retards calling it fascist. Like no you fucking morons China maintained state ownership in all strategic sectors while Hitler and ᴉuᴉlossnW were having a fire sale of everything from telecoms to banks to capitalists. Fascist economic policy is close to neo-liberalism. The Fascist governments were the first to utilize mass-privatization campaigns. China is no different from Soviet NEP where commanding heights are all SOEs whereas in Fascist regimes the commanding heights weren't even controlled by the state.

socialism is when state companies

italy economic policy was privatization in the twenties and nationalization in the thirtes. to say it was just privatization privatization ignores what happens in the thirtes

>>1804372
When you do a real deep dive into obscure Fascist lore you end up seeing some wild shit; like how the Spanish Falange went to world youth day in Cuba, sang the internationale on a soviet ship, then Roman saluted Yugoslav communists. I also heard one tale of an RSI partisan taking refuge in Argentina and actually getting a chance to talk to Che.

Point being; Peron really doesn’t contradict Fascism all that much. He wasn’t “not a fascist” when he was doing good stuff and suddenly became a fascist when he began violently suppressing the Left. Rather Fascism can engage in a delicate balancing act of contradictions.

>>1804657
Nationalization to bail out a private enterprise that went bankrupt is not socialization which was like 99% of the justification of the IRI. For example the IRI took over tollways/roads that had been previously privatized (always makes me laugh that fascists were the first to privatize roads before libertarians came along) because the fucking retarded capitalists somehow went bankrupt still.

The British Tories do the same thing every few years for their railways before re-privatizing after enough taxpayer money has been spent subsidizing reconstruction.

The process is:
>Privatization
>Private owner fails and goes bankrupt
>Nationalize and re-float with state money
>Re-privatize

The British Tories have perfected this scam in the modern era.

Likewise nationalization because of war (Italy was already fighting by the early 1930s) doesn't count either because all states do that.

ᴉuᴉlossnW himself admitted it wasn't nationalization. That's why in the 1944 Verona Manifesto he promised to nationalize industry - because HE HADN'T FUCKING DONE IT EVEN WITH A WARTIME ECONOMY.

>>1804696
>suddenly became a fascist when he began violently suppressing the Left.
the entire HISTORY of fascism is that of violently suppressing the Left you fucking retard
Fascism = Capitalists throwing off the mask and deciding to just kill everyone demanding a better life. This is the Marxist explanation - the only true explanation - and there is no historical fascist regime or figure you can cite to counter this understanding.

>>1804743
Yknow I’d say there’s some miscommunication here and you don’t actually understand what I’m saying, but since you’ve got an annoying confluence of idiocy mixed with smugness I figured I should say that what I’m arguing is that Peron was a Fascist from day 1. He was a fascist when he raised wages for Argentina’s workers and he was the same fascist when he suppressed the Left. He wasn’t more or less Fascist when he was doing one or the other, he was always a Fascist.

What you’ve idiotically argued is that Peron wasn’t a fascist from the start. That despite his open praise for Fascism from day 1, despite the torch lit rallies, the nationalism, the demagoguery, he wasn’t a fascist until he openly suppressed the Left, because you have a vulgar definition of Fascism and think any kind of nuance on the subject is “sinister”. Now ignoring the fact that under your own interpretation of it, then everything from China post-Mao to the Bolsheviks were Fascists, and—ironically enough—ᴉuᴉlossnW ceased to be a Fascist in the Italian Social Republic period because of his close collaboration with elements of the Left during that time.

>>1804843
You are scum.
>ᴉuᴉlossnW ceased to be a Fascist in the Italian Social Republic period because of his close collaboration with elements of the Left during that time.
I literally hand you passages from actual books showing that ᴉuᴉlossnW lied, that he purged whatever might have a claim to be "left" from the beginnings of his government, that the Italian Social Republic fulfilled literally none of its promises, and you repeat back to me that actually it did like some fucking NPC bot.

I'm smug because you keep dodging and coming up with shitty deflections to try to drag attention away from getting called out since ᴉuᴉlossnW and your glorious Italian Social Republic were not what you desperately try to portray them as despite you trying to gaslight /leftypol/ for months on this very issue.

As for Peron I don't care because I never talked about him in this thread so far but if you want my opinion no he was not a fascist in the beginning because he allowed political opposition to run against him and even expanded the pool of eligible voters rather than throwing his opponents into the concentration camp or firing squad wall ala Hitler ᴉuᴉlossnW Franco etc. What fucking fascist allows other politicians and movements to run against him and expands rather than abolishes universal suffrage? That's not a fascist that's a liberal. Peron himself was overthrown in a military coup before he took his third term. Whatever you may want to twist or squint at in regards to Peron himself or whatever he may or may not have said, it's clear that up until the end of his life he wanted Argentina to remain a liberal democracy.

And speaking of what political figures may or may not say, I suspect that is the biggest problem with you. You place far more importance on what people say or the figures they may associate with (guilt by association) rather than what they actually do when in power. This is the retard's way of understanding politics. By this measure Fidel Castro is a fascist because he met with Pinochet in diplomatic meetings before and Xi is a Zionist because there's probably a photo of him shaking hands in a diplomatic meeting with the Israelis or whatever.

Peron did not set out to abolish Argentinian democracy - he expanded it. This is one concrete policy that no "actual fascist" would ever carry out and real empirical evidence against any real belief in a Fascist state, that but you would rather focus on whoever the fuck he met and shook hands with.

>>1804975
>I say Juan Peron is a fascist because for however progressive his economic policies were in the beginning, nothing in it contradicted Fascism or how it presents itself
<You immediately shit your pants and cry that Peron wasn’t a Fascist until, Woops, he purged the left, nevermind he IS a fascist now.

You’re the exact type of personality that will fall for Fascist propaganda then act surprised when you get purged for being too left. Like you’ll huff that the nationalist strongman talking about raising wages is actually secretly based and *definitely* not a Fascist because he isn’t saying “let’s kill all the Marxists” at the start.

Secondly, I ain’t deflecting anything. I said Peron was a Fascist and I stand by that. You’re out here trying to convince people that a Fascist wasn’t a Fascist despite the fact he fucking praised Fascism and consciously tried to imitate it.

Your literal argument is just “Fascism is only when unpopular and violent.” When, as I’ve said before, that’s a wholly insufficient definition that’ll lead to people not recognizing the danger when it’s right in front of them. If you can’t see that the same man that expanded the franchise and improved conditions for workers is also the same guy that repressed the Left Peronists, then you’re gonna fall for the next charismatic demagogue promoting Fascism with a new coat of paint.

Christ you’d point to the Fascist Labor Syndicate, or the brief allowances ᴉuᴉlossnW made for some “Socialist opposition” and you’d claim that there’s no way Il Duce is a fascist—after all, what kind of Fascist gives Socialists desk jobs?

>>1805008
Secondly, as for purging the Left: Bordiga, while arrested on occasion, was repeatedly released from prison under Fascism. The National Republican Socialist Rally existed as a controlled opposition specifically for former socialists and the like.

Literally my whole point, everything I’ve written, is to prove that you can’t trust Fascism to appear as this absurd caricature every time. It has a “reasonable” component that makes it dangerous. But in showing that our enemies aren’t going to just twirl their mustache and say “we will kill all the leftists” I’ve clearly upset you—precisely because you secretly want to admire fascists like Peron without any of the guilt of knowing you got seduced by Fascism.

>>1805027
Fascism is inherently anti-liberal.

>>1805048
is that why liberalism absorbed its most useful traits after defeating fascism lol?

>>1805048
Nah, as others have argued on this thread before, Fascism is just when you repress the Left, and the harder you repress the Left, the more Fascisty you get. Lenin was the OG fascist for repressing the Kronstadt Rebellion. When Poland under communism repressed Solidarity, they were actually secret fascists because Fascists also suppressed labor unions. When China had its cultural revolution, that was Fascism cause they repressed other communists. Then they did Fascism again when they repressed the cultural revolution. Vietnam was Fascist when it fought China who was also Fascist when it fought Vietnam.

If people think Perón was a fascist, wait until they learn about Vargas. Brazil under the Estado Novo (1937–1945) was probably the closest thing to a classical fascist state in Latin America.

And he's still revered by some sectors of the left funnily enough.

>>1805048
Is that why all the top nazis got work in American agencies after Germany was defeated?

Much of the fascist programme has been universally adopted since the end of the second world war, such as the state subjugation of unions. Fascism in its proper form does not exist, it was a historically particular movement in response to the threat of proletarian revolution in Italy and Germany, with specific tasks to mitigate proletarian activity and crush working class organizations, and it's been subsumed into democracy for decades. Person was democratically elected, for fuck's sake.

>>1805089
i agree with this, as much as i appreciate CPUSAnons point and his effortposts

I'm Argentinian, as a leftist here you are likely to have mixed to negative feelings about him. On the one hand, his first couple mandates did make progress in vast areas, he even had five year plans vaguely inspired by the Soviets. On the other hand, he crippled argentinian communism forever, spawned a class collaborationist culture that has been plaguing the country ever since and left Argentina with no actual left and no possibilities of a revolution.

So, make no mistake. Peronism is openly class collaborationist, anticommunist and socially conservative. They might become temporary allies against more reactionary forces, (military coups, neoliberal finance oligarchs, insane ancaps) but they are not friends in the long run.

>>1805052
Like?

>>1805100
scroll up >>1805089

>>1804975
how the fuck can you passionately argue against a bombaccist and then praise fucking peron? just because peron couldnt establish fascism and only managed to become a bonapartist doesnt make him "not fascist"
t. argie

>>1803692
With existing organs of state governance lacking legitimacy - the last, naked, crudest form of power in the military seizes control - itself seeking legitimacy it therefore co-opts selected progressive reforms while strangling further leftward movement to balance the social needs of material reality against unchecked bourgeois rule that ate itself into collapse; necessitating the first place coup to prevent revolutionary change.
Its textbook Bonapartism - down to the named label becoming domestically malleable until it just means 'good-ism'. Because rather than a coherent ideology, the reforms were just the technocratic competence of a military-managerial state that then fell to the same contradictions. The tragedy of the initial rule still turning to austerity followed by the farce of Peronist neoliberalism in the modern day that has equal authority to the label.
Any discussion predicated on assuming he's an ideological figure of conviction and not just a general who saw the tide and sailed with it is treating him far too seriously

>>1805102
I’d just like to reiterate that I’m not a Bombacciist of any kind, and my point (which I’ve reiterated and which has gone over peoples heads) is that the important lesson of Bombacci is to be wary of the seductive power of Fascism. Don’t think you’re immune to it, or too rational for it, because if other Communists can be influenced by it, you can too.

What people have taken that to mean is that I’m saying Bombacci was the face of Fascism when he really wasn’t. And so my warning has fallen on deaf ears as people rush to defend Peron while insinuating I’m a fascist for calling that exact kind of behavior out.

>>1805153
yeah my post came out wrong i know youre not like that
and i am aware of what youre saying. peronism historically had a "left wing" which helped it wrangle disgruntled radicals and avoid a fracture (the laborist party, guerrilas like the fap and far, montoneros, kirchnerism, etc.)

>>1805098
>I'm Argentinian

im sorry to hear it

>>1805154
no need to use scare quotes, theres leftoids and theres communists

>>1804201
Bizarre mix of flags in that vid

>>1803692
Why do people still think that capitalist development inspired by 19th century politics is communism? Some bitches here would call Bismark a communist if he had lived a few decades later.

>>1805064
Kronstadt was OG Color Revolution. Newspapers announcing it were published before the rebellion even took place as acknowledged by Anarchists at the time. Soldarity was a CIA funded trade union. Cultural Revolution was a complete clusterfuck that defies categorization where students were gunning each other down and being retarded.

You're arguing against strawmen you invented from your own mind that no one in this thread claimed to try to shift the goalposts.

Fascism is always
1. Anti-Communist
2. Anti-Liberal
3. In service to the bourgeoisie

If you want to claim Peron as Fascist you have to answer why Peron himself was overthrown by conservative elements in the military backed by the bourgeoisie and his party banned from participating in elections for years before he came back. The Fascist reaction was against Peron for performing basic socdem measures which enraged Argentina's bourgeoisie.

The fact that Peron himself later sold out is irrelevant to the argument. It was under Peron's first two terms where actual bourgeois democracy was restored in Argentina's history.

That Argentinian Trotskyists decades later would attack Peron as fascist for their own political ends doesn't mean he actually was one.

>>1805008
You accuse me of falling for Fascist propaganda when I am the only one on this board who has consistently opposed your white-washing of ᴉuᴉlossnW and your retarded attempts to whitewash Fascist Italy.

>>1805337
>If you want to claim Peron as Fascist you have to answer why Peron himself was overthrown by conservative elements in the military
Power struggles don't always align with ideology.

>>1805337
>Kronstadt was OG Color Revolution. Newspapers announcing it were published before the rebellion even took place as acknowledged by Anarchists at the time. Soldarity was a CIA funded trade union. Cultural Revolution was a complete clusterfuck that defies categorization where students were gunning each other down and being retarded.

I mean if you want to be anal about it, the later uprising against the RSI was supported by the monarchy and bourgeoisie with Communist assistance.

Also:
>Fascism is always
>1. Anti-Communist
>2. Anti-Liberal
>3. In service to the bourgeoisie

Peron repressed communists, had a political machine run entirely by grift, and ultimately benefited the bourgeoisie by promoting class collaboration over class struggle.

>If you want to claim Peron as Fascist you have to answer why Peron himself was overthrown by conservative elements in the military backed by the bourgeoisie and his party banned from participating in elections for years before he came back. The Fascist reaction was against Peron for performing basic socdem measures which enraged Argentina's bourgeoisie.

Hitler had attempts on his life by the German aristocracy. ᴉuᴉlossnW was partially overthrown by conservative elements in his own nation. By your own definition then, both of these guys were in fact not fascist.

>>1805207
anda a militar a massa cabeza de tacho

>>1803692
coal

OG social fascism.

>>1805330
Just /pol/tards trying to "recruit", as always. Peddling reaction in the guise of revolution is the norm.

>>1804168
But what the fuck am I reading on Glowiepedia? Did Peron seriously try to do "third way", instead of just paying lip service, and ended up antagonizing everyone?
>get elected
>try to resolve contradictions peacefully
>get a coup d'etat, instead
>repeat