/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"In contrast to Germany, the U.S.A. had a constitution which was democratic from the start. And its ruling class managed, particularly during the imperialist era, to have the democratic forms so effectively preserved that by democratically legal means, it achieved a dictatorship of monopoly capitalism at least as firm as that which Hitler set up with tyrannic procedures. This smoothly functioning democracy, so-called, was created by the Presidential prerogative, the Supreme Court’s authority in constitutional questions, the finance monopoly over the Press, radio, etc., electioneering costs, which successfully prevented really democratic parties from springing up beside the two parties of monopoly capitalism, and lastly the use of terroristic devices (the lynching system). And this democracy could, in substance, realize everything sought by Hitler without needing to break with democracy formally. In addition, there was the incomparably broader and more solid economic basis of monopoly capitalism."

Georg Lukács (The Destruction of Reason)

>>1810738
Lukacs drops so many underrated bangers

>Do you think modern day fascists / abstract right wing authoritarians, anti democratic racists have the capacity to evolve beyond their larp stage and become something more deadly relative to "allowing" themselves to be co-opted into power or normalizing their politics? What could actually generate support for a new fascist-coded type of party or organization to rise in the United States?

The problem with modern Fascists is beyond broadly not reading their own theory, they take what I'd coin the "Witch Doctor" approach to politics. They elevate politics to purely performative rituals in the hopes that it'll mean actual power. Y'know in some way Patriot Front is more genuinely American than any other Fascist group out there because they're concerned with appearances and how they appear on camera rather than doing anything "offscreen."

But yeah, like I was saying. Most Fascist only have political expression without political construction. They'll do things like hold a sign with an inflammatory statement out, threaten to start fights, then throw up a nazi salute. It's like the atomized white guy's version of a flash mob.

Let's go back to Patriot Front: they're training in marching formations with shield and club tactics. Beyond just embarrassing themselves, it reveals they're trying to make the brownshirts without having a real reason for them. They recognize that early Fascists had bodyguards, but they can't understand why the various shirts-militias existed in the first place, or what they did other than "fight leftists."

Mosley's Blackshirts beat up tax collectors trying to get some church tithe from farmers. The Brownshirts sold cigarettes. ᴉuᴉlossnW's Blackshirts were more combat oriented, granted, but it wasn't like they didn't have people winning hearts and minds–Casapound set up a youth hostel and health clinic. The Falange supported workers co-ops.

Can anyone say what these groups do other than shit their pants in public? What makes the thing even more comical is that most of these guys aren't, like, psychotic combat veterans. Shit, from what I saw in the Patriot Front doxx it was mostly pasty-looking suburban nerds with, like, one violent former felon among them. So you've got kids who think they're hard because they smoked weed once in highschool tagging bus stops. Plus these guys are terrified of consequences, so while the blackshirts were willing to get their teeth knocked in and do flagrantly illegal shit, up to literally assassinating their political enemies these guys are just petty hooligans with a Nazi aesthetic.

Now that isn't to lull people into a false sense of confidence. What Richard Spencer pulled off in 2016 was, broadly, giving Nazism a cleaner face. In fact I think he was even a bit clever at first; he presented himself as a "civilian" who was "just expressing ideas" and he'd wear a nice suit and tie, and then out of the blue all these darned socialists would attack him! If he was smart, he could've organized a few more public incidents, and next thing you know he'd need "bodyguards". Then the more he speaks, and if his bodyguards crack some Antifa types in the process, the more attention people will pay. Had it not been for Charlottesville the "AltRight" could've made itself into a dangerous movement… though perhaps some Germans said the same thing after the disastrous Beer Hall Putsch.

Anyways, if I had to take a shot in the dark, I think the "PatSoc" trend might be the next evolution of this growing Fascist danger. I think I can safely say that now. I saw "Midwestern Marx" apparently condemn antisemitism while discussing "Finance Capital" and a chunk of his followers started posting (((them))) conspiracies outright. I think with Patriotic Socialism and "MAGA Communism" (and for as absurd as the latter is, Dugin felt it worthy of discussion) we're witnessing the birth of the "intellectual" Left Fascists, and I think those are the load-bearing coalition of the movement.

I still don't think Fascists can get far on extreme Racism, though. At least not in modern times. I'll get eye rolls for this, but in spite of the ambient racism in American society, I think groups like Blacks and Jews are simply too integrated into our everyday life to give traction to an openly racist movement. I think there's a genuine possibility of "Black Fascism" emerging to coincide with a wider Fascist shift. Could be they pull a page from the Integralists book and say "race mixing is okay" or what have you.

I think it's form will resemble welfare Capitalism or a kind of State Capitalism. Depends on how the PatSocs continue to devolve.

The dialectic is repeating itself, the same old ideas are bending around time to struggle once again. Only everything is so much stupider now. We're all LARPers and pseuds compared to the radicals of yesteryear.

CPUSAnon is correct, there's no way in hell that the skinheads and 4chan racists who consider themselves 'fascists' could ever take power in America. They have no political vision, organization or social base beyond a minority of edgy misanthropes. Even if they could cobble together a movement, they'll be politely escorted to prison by the FBI before ever getting close to Washington DC.

The only chance of an 'American fascism' succeeding is through an apostate leftist. A charismatic leader who is able to combine social-democratic politics with an appeal to the petty bourgeois for national rejuvenation through protectionism, isolationism, and ruralism. Some kind of integralist theory of race and identity would also be necessary, white nationalism just isn't gonna fly and you'll need the support of nonwhite reactionaries to function as a movement.

Still unlikely though, and my money remains on the continued degeneration of bourgeois politics leading to a military coup and eventual declaration of a Second American Republic.

the future is techno feudalism coming from silicon valley, not pol tardation larping

Linking for further reading, since a lot of the thread was about discussing this: >>>/leftypol_archive/589420

>>1810750
Didn't brownsharts/etc. also exist to harass socialist and trade unionist events? The closest I've seen to modern neofash serving that role is a small nazi group holding flags outside the front of a book store during a communist reading club [lmao], NSN kids getting bashed up a street after trying to ambush an antifa fundraiser gig, and some neo-fash (Proud Boys?) providing basic security for conservative speakers. That is to say, they don't serve that role.

I believe some Racist Libertarian regime like they have in Central/South America based around herrenvolk democratic principles is possible but not Hitlerian fascism no, Hitlerism/Race Exterminationism regardless of profit is just completely alien to America's dasein. Even the Dixies and the KKK did not want this.
>"But what about manifest destiny anon?"
It was caused by a combination of objective financial profitability, mass youthfull white immigration, natives lack of organized civilization and poor resistance to eurasian dizeases, not comparable to Generalplan Ost.
A potential Hitlerite regime change in America would not be youthful enough, homogenous enough, profitable enough or justified enough to happen. It would also be too authoritarian, as far as the average white american is concerned having a creepy dysgneic NAZIs telling them how to live their life isnt much different from having Jason Unruhue calling them labor aristokkrat firstoid trash: they don't want it.

Fascism cannot rise, because they will never WOKE up

“Fascism” is just one in a series of ideologies dreamed up by Atlanticists to justify the oppression and genocide of the “asiatic hordes” once you remove the window dressing, so in that sense America has been fascist since its existence. If you’re defining fascism as “muh authoritarianism” though then every state in existence is fascist

It started off with fascism, things are actually getting better because they're so bad at maintaining fascism. SEO was the nail in the coffin.

I suppose the "hard times make soft men" or whatever mantra applies to the right specifically.

>>1810750
>they take what I'd coin the "Witch Doctor" approach to politics
I suspect some of their failure comes from what I will coin the "Cheerleader" approach to politics.
Many neo-Nazis believe in a race war, a fantasized day when mass society will wake up (see also: red-pill, The Great Awakening) to race realism, become what we'd call race conscious, and Whoites, being the majority/the ones with Aryan spirit, will inevitably defeat da joos and blags. This leads them to strategically focus on platform seeking, information warfare and random PotD terrorism. They believe they can win the world through posting memes. And that can hypothetically cause a lot of damage, but it just isn't practical at attacking a system, especially given the material conditions. It's like if communists said 'we just need to explain Marxism to the entire population so they wake up and kill all the business owners, cops, liberals and other class traitors!!' it's just not a good strategy in practice.
I've seen more effective anti-Israel action by socialists in a month than any rightoids I'm aware of accomplished in decades. And make no mistake, they're mad the US funds them with tax money, they're mad at Mossad and their bullshit, I told some /pol/yps what my communist comrades did this week and they gave me a bunch of thumbs up. If I can remember to, I'll look up if /pol/ talks about the direct anti-Israel action Western communists are doing (like blocking weapons manufacture, harassing intellectuals, etc.) and see what they make of it. It's all over mass media so they probably do talk about it.
But the point being, I don't see righoids using any of the tactics which actually work. It's just not in their arsenal.

>>1810862
>Didn't brownsharts/etc. also exist to harass socialist and trade unionist events? The closest I've seen to modern neofash serving that role is a small nazi group holding flags outside the front of a book store during a communist reading club [lmao], NSN kids getting bashed up a street after trying to ambush an antifa fundraiser gig, and some neo-fash (Proud Boys?) providing basic security for conservative speakers. That is to say, they don't serve that role.

Yeah, and even if Fascists were to try busting unions now, they'd be doing it at a time when unions are more popular than they've been in ages. Even the Union Busting of the 80s needed some justification; namely convincing Boomers "these greedy union guys just want to get paid for doing nothing, and that's why the economy is bad!" It's not like Fascists can point to apparent "chaos" like a revolution in a nearby country to make Marxists seem "scarier" either.

It's why I've got to say Richard Spencer was being a little more clever when he risked letting himself get assaulted rather than speaking exclusively to a crowd of skinheads. I still think his ideas were ultimately not gonna get far, but he was going about it all with some cunning. Unite the Right was really just him blowing his load too soon.

>>1810890
Y'know I have another theory, that the modern Neo-Nazis just carry too much baggage with them to make constructive politics possible. People look at the Swastika, and it's repellant for normal people.

It's an issue that the Left can kind of face too, with the hammer and sickle and all that, but it's made even worse because of the intentional murderousness of the Nazi regime. Like the USSR is broadly characterized as being "murderous by incompetence" while the Nazis are "murderous through competence."

Even the most depraved stories from North Korean defectors are some variation of "And then the government decided everything is worth exactly the same, so we don't have any doctors, because all the doctors make as janitors, and so people die." Which is a far cry from literally loading people into cattle cars to exterminate them.

A successful neo-Fascist movement in the U.S. will have to drop the baggage. It would need to stop using the symbols of EuroFash regimes and develop their own symbols. It likely won't call itself "Fascist" explicitly or throw up the Roman salute. It'll call itself something like "Neo-Socialism" or "Americanism" or "National Unity" or whatever.

The reason the Nazis could get away with the Swastika was because at the time, it was new. No one had any conception of the horrors that would later come to be associated with the symbol. Germany was also a hell of a lot less racially diverse than America. So you'd go to some Fascist soup kitchen or nature hike, and it's all "Oooh, unity! Friendship! Make Germany great again!" If Nazis tried setting up some poverty support out here, like give out food and clothes, well eventually Black people and others would come and they'd have to tell these people to their face: "No, we don't help your kind." And that's ruins any propaganda value that could come from "Fascist soup kitchens" and the like.

The success of prior Fascist movements is that they could claim to be "beyond" Left and Right, nominally defined as the mainstream Left and Right of their nations. And what makes it possible to claim that is some unifying principle, some intrinsic identity they can rally the majority around; "Oh hey, we're all Germans/Italians/Spaniards here!"

That's a funny thing about OG Fascism, the point of the ultranationalism was to emphasize unity of the majority. There was an exclusionary and often xenophobic element, no doubt, but xenophobia was a lot more tolerable to the "mainstream" in a world where industrialized genocide hadn't happened (in Europe) yet. If a modern Fascist tries to appeal to a "unifying" White identity, then he's gonna fall flat because the very concept of "White Identity" has been specifically coded to the Right.

Y'know there was some old fascist propaganda I saw, where it was this three panel comicstrip. First panel is some shaggy looking dude waving a red flag and stepping on the Italian flag. Second panel, a blackshirt comes over and forces him to drink a bottle of "cure" (bottle was labeled "Fascism"). Third panel, the blackshirt and the shaggy guy are both stepping on the red flag and raising the Italian one. Even the Nazis would pay lipservice to this "German unity" that transcended Left and Right, at least at the start.

The Fascists of today are more obsessed with making a list of people they're going to kill when they come to power. There's not even an attempt to create some artificial "unity" of all American citizens.

I said it once before and I'll say it again: any successful Fascism in America is gonna be multiracial.

>>1810736
Why do you freaks obsess over terminally online american far right?

>>1810929
Proto movements are interesting to study how they fizzle out or evolve

>>1810929
The online space influences real life as much as we don't like it. Revolutions have happened over facebook events. War propaganda. Recruitment. It should be obvious, but for some odd reason I always get asked to provide examples which end up getting dismissed anyway.

>>1810969
They don't get dismissed They get disproven.

>>1810971
They get dismissed. There is no way to disprove that the internet has an effect on us and the real World.

>>1810972
Name these events that were dismissed

>>1810973
You and I for example, much as I dislike it, but look at the amount of education, especially political education we can gain from articles, websites, free books, free encylopaedias, not to mention the impact apps like social media has on people.

>>1810973
Anecdotes don't matter. What matters is
>There is no way to disprove that the internet has an effect on us and the real World

>>1810974
Never made the claim of the internet being inherently bad.

>>1810975
So your argument that online spaces influences politics(like how "meme magic" won 2016) is moot

i think "orthodox fascism" has already largely been incorporated into much of the west in general, particularly the united states, in the form of corporatist governance funding itself through perpetual war & imperialism. but i think this incorporation of older fascism necessarily had to shed much of its more overt ideological schema in favor of being actually implemented as administrative policy, and during decline theres still an appetite for reactionary solutions. the schizophrenia & permission to engage in the most vicious reflexes has always been at the heart of fascism, but there used to be some grounding that could be pointed to as far as desiring the unity of the nation in the form of unifying capital and labor under a militarized state that ensures their cooperation. now weve already had that in the US for the entire post-war period, so the reactionaries in the US that look fondly on fascist and quasi-fascist ideology need to really embrace schizophrenia & groundless aesthetics for explaining what they really want, either that or theyre honest with themselves and say they want race war because theyve become addicted to sissy hypo BBC porn

This is what I meant by anecdotes don't matter. I don't give a shit about your liberal elections or whatever example you want me to give so you can break it down.
It is more than obvious that they're metaphorically drilling holes into the brains of newgens to be hailing Hitlers catholicpilling themselves into killing the 'troons' and 'nigs' as they fend off the 'woke left'. But yeah, obviously the internet cannot have an effect on the real World or people, because it just can't according to you. You need those sources and facts and logic, because you cannot just state an obvious observation and say it is. It has to be backed up by the authors of your choice in a nice long bureau-speak with tons of clapping and applauds. Obviously Neo-Nazis indoctornating 14 year old kids, starting with skull mask Wojak profile pics to going out on the streets and stabbing migrants by the they've turned 17 is just memes and doesn't matter. Because it has to be proven by the sources and statistics and not just be singled out cases that have accumulated to a point of pattern-recognition, it just has to be OFFICIAL right?

The very language itself used in political games right now stems from the internet, but obviously it does not, the internet just doesn't matter and has no effect on the real World. Because it just doesn't right? Its not like cultures develop on the internet. And even though internet creates cultures then cultures don't have an effect on the real World right? Its all memes. Funny pictures and sounds cannot possibly have influence right? And if someone says they do then just compare them to those old congressmen who used to complain about how videogames are causing violence (ignoring the metanarratives and critical theory of Neo-Nazis showing kids actual gore).

>>1810996
The superstructure does affect the base but it's ultimately determined by the base. I'm not saying the internet can't affect reality at all.
Trying to fight online wars is dumb because the terrain is determined by the opposite of grass-touching members of the working class. It is inhabited by insane nobodies who will interpret you posting on your lunch break, then going away, as them "winning" because you gave up, etcetera.
You shouldn't look at Twitch for what to expect next out of politics, but yeah maybe it will get used as a laboratory and have wide-reaching negative effects. Surely it has already.

>>1810996
Was responding to >>1810983

>>1810929
They aren't really online anymore, they're endorsed by elon musk and sitting congress members

>>1810999
>The superstructure does affect the base but it's ultimately determined by the base.
Absolutely. Never denied that. The rotten atmosphere of capital itself culminates what we observe on here, but I point to a feedback loop.
>Trying to fight online wars is dumb
Couldin't agree more. We really need the natural safe drugs as an alternative to experiencing and living with the stresses of capitalist realism though. Need more methods of escapism for envisioning alternatives. The online space that was my neat little retreat from reality and has been subverted by it. The wild west days of the internet are gone. Grieving for the retro nostalgia can never bring it back, it was supposed to be experienced in the moment not reenacted.
Need weed. Magic mushrooms. Ayahuasca… It has not yet been subverted by capitalism. They haven't put capitalism into psychadelics from nature, they tried to replace it with the designer drugs and MKUltra, but they cannot get rid of nature.

>>1811008
If you're the other 3D glasses anon from before, I'm just going to make sure to reread what you're saying, because when I get stoned I sometimes mess up a negative and end up saying the opposite of what I intend to mean.
>natural drugs
Mainly people need a variety so they can rotate. Whenever someone gets stuck with only cigs, booze, and alcohol they become criminally insane and forget love exists (glaring at moderators)
Mods I prescribe you a strict regimen of blue lotus, weed, kava, weed, areca nut, weed and tobacco, qhat, then even more weed
Actually I forgot to add drinking sorry adjust to your liking. But if you have multiple drugs you don't get the serious tolerance. Playing fast and loose here but I'm not gonna post the tripsit drug spreadsheet

>>1811013
>If you're the other 3D glasses anon from before, I'm just going to make sure to reread what you're saying, because when I get stoned I sometimes mess up a negative and end up saying the opposite of what I intend to mean.
Yes I am. And to clarify the 'obviously' statements were ironizing in character.
Also I am pleased to read from a fellow psychonaut on here. Sobriety preachers have taken over most of civilization and driven us into a cope to death with the despair of living in this awful atmosphere. The double standard of escapism through other SOCIALLY-ACCEPTABLE methodics seems to be a recycled christian morality. Life sucks? Eat, Drink, Piss, Shit, Work, Sleep cyclical tasks are too much for you? Then the moralist will go 'just socialize more bro, drugs are not the answer' - but society itself is a mind-numbing drug of idiocy as it manifests now in consumerist culture. They don't care about the structure of it, rather the act of participation and what merits their social reputation. It is just an example, but it is the most annoying one. A bored dog gets its throat slit by the moral drug-free youths' lifestyle, because it was simply too much of a bad influence for their puritan parade. Social-psychopaths don't want you to escape their influence or reach wisdom in alternative ways they have not approved of or perscribed, only they are supposed to teach you how to benefit them. It can never be ad hoc, always indirect paternalistic nudges which deflect any critiques targeted towards capitalism and its proponents. Zombies criticizing drug users for being zombies while the latter does not wish to eat no one's brains, but instead seeks to reach wisdom for itself.

>>1810750
>I still don't think Fascists can get far on extreme Racism, though. At least not in modern times. I'll get eye rolls for this, but in spite of the ambient racism in American society, I think groups like Blacks and Jews are simply too integrated into our everyday life to give traction to an openly racist movement. I think there's a genuine possibility of "Black Fascism" emerging to coincide with a wider Fascist shift. Could be they pull a page from the Integralists book and say "race mixing is okay" or what have you.

The way I see America far right has a couple options.

>black/white/hispanic Christian theocracy

>Abrahamic fascist coalition

Or if they were really smart, vow to complete the liberal melting pot project. Accelerate if necessary, forced race mixing to create the American master race. Devised of all human genetics and cultural masters of the world. Instead of death camps you'll be marched into breeding camps. Same race marriage will be outlawed. And you throw in all the other fascist stuff. No being gay because that interferes with the American master race project. A new type of eugenics that will breed the a perfect capitalist subject.

>>1811023
>Or if they were really smart, vow to complete the liberal melting pot project. Accelerate if necessary, forced race mixing to create the American master race. Devised of all human genetics and cultural masters of the world. Instead of death camps you'll be marched into breeding camps. Same race marriage will be outlawed. And you throw in all the other fascist stuff. No being gay because that interferes with the American master race project. A new type of eugenics that will breed the a perfect capitalist subject.

Y'know people might laugh, but I think Guayana actually banned Intraracial marriage: i.e. mandated race mixing. The integralists in Brazil in particular went into this "Race Mixing revitalized our people" thing, and ᴉuᴉlossnW is on record saying "mixing usually improves a race's vitality.

I think something Fascists can flirt with is, as you said, the liberal melting pot project. Y'know just go all out and say "You can find every culture/race on earth in America. To be American means to be a product of vastly different groups coming together and so we're a product of all of them.

You could get some bizarre mish-mash then; like Kente Cloth Kimonos or something. Though I think it'd be less "breeding camps" and more tax subsidies and censorship of any "racialist" doctrine… including ostensibly "progressive" ones.

>>1810834
>A charismatic leader who is able to combine social-democratic politics with an appeal to the petty bourgeois for national rejuvenation through protectionism, isolationism, and ruralism. Some kind of integralist theory of race and identity would also be necessary, white nationalism just isn't gonna fly and you'll need the support of nonwhite reactionaries to function as a movement.

Picrel are definitely the people to watch for this kind of hypothetical American fascism. They've already been making overtures to disaffected segments of the Left for a while, which is a pretty crucial element in the building of a legitimate fascist coalition

>>1811036
Then again Thiel definitely isn't charismatic and he seems to prefer working behind the scenes. So Tucker is the most likely guy

>>1811020
I meant from a prior thread I feel like we've talked. Yeah, it's nice, I'm not surprised to see drug people here any more than FOSS people haha. Alright, see you around. I come here every few days.

America is already fascist. Biden is a fascist

>>1811013
You guys ever try that crystal THC that the zoomers smoke

>>1811036
>Homofascism with Venture Capital Characteristics
Anon, I wanted to sleep tonight.

>>1810738
Yeah, this sums up my thoughts as well. What would a fascist America do? Kill all commmunists and millions of loosely racially defined lessers? Fuel reactionary politics the world over? Build slave labor and concentration camps? Implement draconian security measures that still don't work? Destroy all speech that doesn't serve the interests of the state? Fail miserably on every single front?

>>1811038
>I meant from a prior thread
Oh, then I don't know. Neither could I possibly know.

>>1810926
>It's not like Fascists can point to apparent "chaos" like a revolution in a nearby country to make Marxists seem "scarier" either.
They could point to unions helping take disruptive actions against Israe- oh wait no…

>>1810929
>thinks a basic discussion is 'obsession'
Comrade…

>>1811035
>Y'know people might laugh, but I think Guayana actually banned Intraracial marriage
If you are talking about Guyana then that wasn't a policy there.

>>1811072
The thing is that chaos has to appear existential. Like the Fascists in Italy and Germany could point to the USSR’s flaws, real or imagined, and say “that’s what we’re fighting.” The pitch to the skilled professionals and small business owners that make up the middle class is “if we don’t do this, they’re going to take your property, line you up against a wall, and shoot you.”

Like it isn’t just that the Unions are doing anything, it’s that the feedback of propaganda is convincing people that the unions are part of some plot that ends with mass murder and destruction. The fascists step in and huff “we’ve stopped the Bolsheviks!” And earn support from people afraid those scary union fellows are gonna kill them if they get what they want.

I’ll say this, one potential benefit of America being so ignorant about what Communism is, is that they could look at the Amazon union and think “Ha! He’s really sticking it to that commie Jeff Bezos!” It’s why for as unlikely as a true revival of white nationalism in America is, Tucker is still clever for appealing to some residual White Anxieties about “Black people coming into our town to murder/rob us”. I suspect this is also why the Right has mostly ignored the rising pro-union sentiment in favor of seething over social activism—they’re convinced one is unimportant and the other wants to steal their stuff and make them gay. You look at old 19th and 20th century anti union propaganda and it’s kind of similar to how the Right treats groups like BLM today. It’s all disheveled, barely human hordes of perpetually drunk thugs that are irrationally coming to get you. While that works when you’ve got a significant population of self-sufficient farmers, small business owners, and professionals, the fact now is that the farmers have been broadly sidelined by agricultural corporations, small business ownership has shrunk as Capital monopolizes, and most professionals will generally have to eat crow while they’re working on their degree—work a job at some shitty retail or restaurant chain, mostly. Racial animosity is the best threat they can come up with currently.

>>1811052
Honestly, it's still just weed, anon. It's like if you could smoke an edible all at once. It's uncomfortable to me, but the people who do it a lot don't feel any different from someone who smokes all day erry day, just less tar in the lungs. Still, putting hot oils in there makes me nervous, and it's derived from combustion with a hydrocarbon extraction. People should EAT FUCKING BROWNIES and stop being weird about it. It still stuns your lungs' villi and ruins your alveoli

>>1811141
>I’ll say this, one potential benefit of America being so ignorant about what Communism is, is that they could look at the Amazon union and think “Ha! He’s really sticking it to that commie Jeff Bezos!”
Critical support for anti-communist communism!

>>1810750
>I think the "PatSoc" trend might be the next evolution of this growing Fascist danger. I think I can safely say that now.
I have similar thinking but I find them so repulsive that I wonder whether they'll amount to much more than a sectarian internet cult. While there's fascists in their mix, it's also a highly vulgarized Stalinism (or Stalinoid-ism) from one angle but somehow manages to take positions that would've gotten them shot by Stalin, while trying to cosplay being a hack party apparatchik, which is just sicko shit. Fan cult for state news outlets. If anything their worship of the almighty "state" and recognition by Russian propaganda outlets as a measure of their own value seems like it would generate apathy, dependency, and helplessness, with the paranoid "everything is CIA" aspects being largely inimical to collective organizing.

>I saw "Midwestern Marx" apparently condemn antisemitism while discussing "Finance Capital" and a chunk of his followers started posting (((them))) conspiracies outright.
They had also edited the tweet as they said "Jewish workers are not the enemy. Finance capital is the enemy." Or something like that. Then they changed it to "Jewish people." But the implication from the first one is that finance capital are essentially the "bad Jews." In other words, the fascists are onto something, (((finance capital))) because what they said it was all along. There's a weird mental association in the framing, and then they started left-punching and whining like babies about leftists slandering and misunderstanding them rather than challenging the anti-Semites in their own replies.

Which is a pattern with Midwestern Marx. I've seen them over and over again present information with a right-wing encoding or framework, although I think they might cynically think that their mission is to turn groypers into Marxists. It's like a kind of ass-backwards Leninism that looks at the would-be Black Hundreds and says: "ah, look, those guys don't want things to go on in the same old way!" when groups like that should, dialectically, emerge as a countervailing force when systems are in crisis mode. The ruling class, reactionary forces, etc. also don't want things to go on in the same old way.

I've seen some other patsoc stuff, like an account called "Pamphlets" that says it's communist, pro-Xi, multipolarist, but when they talk about what socialism is, according to them, it's very similar to Nazi economic rhetoric (although much of even that was abandoned in practice because it got in the way of rearmament), but also badly written and amateur-ish.

>>1810864
>I believe some Racist Libertarian regime like they have in Central/South America based around herrenvolk democratic principles is possible but not Hitlerian fascism no
Millei's stuff in Argentina is also echoed by a lot of Silicon Valley people about the "elites" standing in the way of "greatness" and that the West is being subjected to "demoralization." Portent for an attempt at an ancap president in the U.S.? (Well, that wouldn't be a big change really.)

>>1810926
>Yeah, and even if Fascists were to try busting unions now, they'd be doing it at a time when unions are more popular than they've been in ages.
Realistically they'd also just get beat up, like… Patriot Front attacking striking Teamsters?

>>1811195
>Realistically they'd also just get beat up, like… Patriot Front attacking striking Teamsters?
Realistically they'd attack striking Starbucks, retail, or media workers. Teachers too

>>1811195
Yknow I’ve gone back and forth on the PatSoc thing, in the sense I broadly agree that, yes, the Left has broadly alienated itself from the American working class by playing up some foreign comprador image. I’d seen Leftists online make fun of a pic of an 8 year old breaking out in tears because his dad, a marine, died in combat. Then you’ve got the RCP and their inflammatory flag burning.

I think to some extent there’s a lack of empathy of a kind. It is alienating yourself from the wider community. People can talk about international solidarity all they want, but to most Americans vets are their coworkers, the kid crying over his dead dad looks like our son, cousin, little brother, etc. It just seems antisocial.

At the same time, excessive displays of “patriotism” seems absurd. Unnatural even. Most of us aren’t going around making “patriotism” our personality. I think there’s something to be said about wanting your country to prosper, wanting your neighbors to live happy and healthy lives, without literally hugging the flag.

>>1811234
>At the same time, excessive displays of “patriotism” seems absurd. Unnatural even.
It has always seemed to encourage an "us vs. them" attitude – so who's "them?" People who are not Americans. Or even people who are Americans, just not the right kind.

Anecdotally, back in my hometown, there are many new immigrant families and black families who have moved in for the first time, and I suspect it's not a coincidence two white guys on my parents' block put up their MAGA flags (one with Trump as Rambo), and I know one immigrant guy who lives on the block (he's from Thailand) and doesn't like it. Some black grade-school kids also didn't like it, said it was racist, and one of the kids threw a rock through one of those guys' windows.

I think one problem people have is anticipating the reactions of other people to their behavior. It's like people in this country think that if they create an aura of aggression around themselves, then people won't want to mess with them, when the reality is that it tends to breed more resistance, or generate political forces that will come back to harm them.

>>1811234
while the left needs to be more normal and agreeable in general, it is admittedly hard to do that while maintaining an appropriately strict line on anti-imperialism and there is a point where its not worth ever playing to what are essentially petit-bourgeois nationalist sensibilities, even if those sensibilities are embraced by the proletariat, especially considering the american proletariat is extremely eager to be accepted into the ranks of the petit-bourgeois. my policy is dont unnecessarily provoke, but also dont hide my feelings and dont coddle. i wont go out of my way to ruin the barbeque but if you ask me what i think ill tell you i think the US is an unredeemable empire that has been unsalvageable since it abandoned reconstruction.

all that said, "patsocs" arent just socialists that feel fuzzy about american symbolism and history like say the 30s CPUSA which was a different thing entirely, "patsocs" are actively "socially conservative" and way too invested in owning the libs. if you want to warm up to americans with patriotic sentiments, there are far more of the type of patriotic liberal democrats from small town wisconsin or pennsylvania who fly the flag and "believe in america" but foam at the mouth whenever they see a MAGA flag, who would be much more willing to listen to you talk about socialism. but these "patsoc" types are simply just reactionaries who have found a different flavor of the same old american middle class fetishism for the "real working class", which in their mind always has way more to do with trucks, boots, and lighthearted racism than it does with only living by selling your work to bosses

>>1811248
What region is your hometown

>>1811249
>who would be much more willing to listen to you talk about socialism.
Doubt it. Those patriotic liberal democrats tend "believe in america" including its empire and are known hotspots for recruits to the CIA. Those same patriots also believe that populism is the language of tyrants and get repulsed by any movement.

>>1811195
>Patriot Front attacking striking Teamsters?
I can't even imagine those nerds attacking drag queens.

>>1811258
im not talking about the kind of liberal democrats who spend their time ranting about drumpf on facebook, im talking about purple state lower middle class democrats who are mailmen, schoolteachers, etc in small cities or mid sized towns in the rust belt & similar areas. i realize that sounds very specific, but there really is a sizable demographic of largely offline normie working class democrats who like pink floyd, fishing, and really fucking hate their obnoxious reactionary neighbors. will they be receptive to socialism? probably not, theyre americans, but theyre normal people that are a lot more likely to hear you out than the schizo MAGA reactionaries that these patsoc types SWEAR are just a push away from embracing based multipolar socialism with turanic characteristics. again, i think the US is unsalvageable and i cringe at any patriotism for it, im just pointing out that if someone earnestly wanted to appeal to patriotic americans about socialism, the logical place to start would be the sizable demographic of working class democrats who support welfare but hate the clintons. but the "patsocs" arent earnest at all, its all aesthetic for them, theyre quasi-fascoids that want to signal that they can be just as based and epic as the overt fascoids. its completely pathetic.

It cannot because Yankoids are subhuman little goblins that cannot do a mass movement
America can never be fascist because the American pig-dog (very insightful term from the DPRK, Americans are fat gluttonous cunts that love consuming products like disgusting swine fit for the meat market but also deeply obedient to their bourgeois masters like servile dogs) would never die for a cause greater than its own consumption

The American equivalent to fascism will be AI slaughterbots killing masses of people

>>1811248
I’d like to use a personal anecdote here. So, my dad had a major impact on my life and views… and not necessarily in a good way. If anything it’s the funhouse mirror version of a lot of “kids with crazy right wing parents” tales. If anything my dad proved to me that you could be a vocal feminist and agnostic, some liberal with that cringe pink pussy hat, and still abuse your family, condemn everyone around you for character flaws, and act like a raging narcissist. Often enough I’d spend entire evenings outside the house, just waiting at my local parish for my dad to calm down or go to sleep so I could tiptoe back home.

Anyways I’ve jokingly called him “some kind of liberal third worldist” before. Let me elaborate now. We’d have these long, uncomfortable car rides where occasionally he’d talk and say shit like “America is dead last in math, reading, and science—know what were number one in? Arrogance.” In one of his most groan inducing exercises in self importance, he even said
>”I’m not about the whole ‘America, rah rah!’ Thing. I consider myself something like a Benedict Arnold type.”
I’m not joking. Those were his words. And I could tell then, I think, this was just another way of him smugly asserting his superiority over the rest of us—“the unevolved” was his pejorative of choice. Ysee the unevolved all drank, voted Republican, and hit their wife and kids. Evolved folks like him were sober and voted democrat while hitting their wife and kids.

This isn’t to say I became some Bible Thumping rah-rah nationalist in response, but I think anti-nationalism or oikophobia or whatever you want to call it was made permanently alien to me. Flawed as it is, I can’t take the plunge into hating my country or countrymen.

There were only a few moments where I think I could claim to feel a kind of patriotism. Probably the one that stands out the most happened a few years ago. This woman came through my line smiling ear to ear, I asked how her day went and she was just beaming—“terrific!” I ask why, and she said it was the day she’d finally become an American citizen, after years of trying. Yknow her happiness was contagious, she was just so excited to be an American officially. I felt a kind of kinship, a national feeling then. I told her I was happy to call her a fellow American and got her a bouquet of flowers to celebrate. She gave me a big hug.

I don’t know exactly why I’m typing all this out. Maybe I feel obligated to explain myself. To me, I suppose, America is a totality. I see the bubbly immigrant lady, the friendly Muslimah who shops in my store, the vets, my coworkers, even the jerks as all part of some thing called America. I work with people who were born in Romania and people from Jamaica, I work with Asians, Blacks, Whites, and at the end of the day they’re all American to me. I, too, am an American.

>>1811303
>I’m not about the whole ‘America, rah rah!’ Thing. I consider myself something like a Benedict Arnold type.”
>I’m not joking. Those were his words. And I could tell then, I think, this was just another way of him smugly asserting his superiority over the rest of us—“the unevolved” was his pejorative of choice. Ysee the unevolved all drank, voted Republican, and hit their wife and kids. Evolved folks like him were sober and voted democrat while hitting their wife and kids.

ok CPUSAnon this all puts in a lot of perspective your tolerance for some level of american patriotism and your disdain for vulgar anti-americanism, i completely sympathize and would probably have similar feelings coming from your position

>>1811303
>Often enough I’d spend entire evenings outside the house, just waiting at my local parish for my dad to calm down or go to sleep so I could tiptoe back home.
Never thought how much having an abusive parent in America would suck with the no walkable cities, parks, acessable social places to congregate, etc.

>>1811085
you mean he talked out of his ass and didn't give a source?!?!
>>1811035
as a muttoid I am definitely superior to every inbred habsburg and that isn't racism, it's just god's honest truth. dragonball z taught me that the half-saiyan half-human is miraculously stronger than the fullblood saiyan prince

>>1811195
>While there's fascists in their mix, it's also a highly vulgarized Stalinism
ah yes, the haztards
>>1811249
>while the left needs to be more normal and agreeable in general,
this emphasis on leave it to beaver normality and agreeableness is quite hilarious to see in a nation where the normie conservative is increasingly believing in reptilians, worshiping an orange billionaire harder than jesus, and killing their children by refusing to vaccinate them not just against covid, but also polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc. there is no "normal" here. Queers are constantly told they need to put on this mask of normality but the "normals" are fucking freaks lmfao
>>1811234
>I’ve gone back and forth on the PatSoc thing, in the sense I broadly agree that, yes, the Left has broadly alienated itself from the American working class by playing up some foreign comprador image.
the "comprador" pejorative works in an exploited/colonized periphery nation where there's a clear split between a national bourgeoisie that develops nationalized productive forces and a comprador bourgeoisie that takes foreign loans and let's imperial core porky own everything. In america the left is not playing up any kind of comprador image. We're insulting the empire and if this is "alienating" to anyone it's not to the class conscious proletariat but to the lumpenproletariat and petit bourgeoisie who believe rhetoric like "war on terror" or "spreading democracy" is really true.

>>1811195
infraHaz is a Heideggerian pseudointellectual attracted to internet debate for self-promotion.
They used you for self-promotion to establish a larger audience.
Their only ambition is finding attention online. Being threatened by them enough to talk about them is their goal.
You take debates seriously even they are a meaningless game that has zero consequences because it makes it more entertaining for you. Presidential debates are more retarded than even high school US policy debate, and it's the only impactful thing debate amounts to.
Norm vs Destiny was a rehash of Buckley vs Chomsky. Like Foucault vs Chomsky it's all quite safe because they alike uphold imperialist ideals. It's all safe. Chomsky brags America is better than "totalitarian states" because he is allowed to speak. Foucault says you should skip school and spread your cheeks. Buckley bathes in more attention, being owned had no negative on his career. Norm struggles to contain himself from going into anecdotes about how he was an important member of Chomsky's milieu.
The best case for debate having consequences I have heard from you is Jon Stewart on Crossfire had a close timing to the show being taken off the air. It's all theatre for you. You are babies looking at finger puppet shows.

>>1811346
>Jon Stewart on Crossfire
And Jon Stewart wasn't even the reason why Crossfire went off-air so debates really don't do anything.

>>1811342
>normie conservative is increasingly believing in reptilians, worshiping an orange billionaire harder than jesus, and killing their children by refusing to vaccinate them not just against covid, but also polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc. there is no "normal" here.

yes those people are far too common and they are a plague and while i generally agree with avoiding the fetishization of "normality", im not referring to any kind of cultural signifiers, i mean people who have concerns grounded in their relationships & community and are reasonably socially well adjusted. this might include some leave-it-to-beaver types but it also includes plenty of counter-culture types, who if anything often find more grounding and earnestness in their "alternative" interests than people with middle class sensibilities. i mean the kind of people you meet and you might not have much in common with but you feel like you were on the same page and would get along fine.

>>1811303
>Flawed as it is, I can’t take the plunge into hating my country or countrymen.
I just see the country as a spook, there's no need to hate out of reaction. I'm not gonna spurge out at union folk raising a Eureka flag.

>I don’t know exactly why I’m typing all this out.
You're rubberducking!

>>1811310
I appreciate it. Like I said, it's the weird funhouse mirror version of what I imagine a lot of liberal or gay kids go through with uber-conservative parents. The Church taught me that God's love for me is unconditional, my dad taught me that his love for me was. If any of us annoyed him, he'd park himself in the middle of the house to watch TV, and act like you didn't exist; 'cept he would glare at the TV if you were near to let you know he was pissed at you. Sometimes he wouldn't acknowledge us for a month. He also made it clear that any gift he gave us was contingent on not annoying him and he'd take it away if he wanted.

>>1811320
It was an… experience, I guess? I'd get yelled at to "go outside" if I did anything annoying like get frustrated or sad. It was almost always after school so around the evening, the sun would be setting. I'd walk around a quiet little suburb, surrounded by concrete and yellowed grass. A cold wind would chill me, usually. It felt like a kind of purgatory I guess. Houses, likely occupied but silent, leered at me. The darker it got, the more it felt like some kind of funeral. It was a lonely experience.

USA is already fascist
Why would they the bourgeoisie need to erect an unstable fascist government in defence of the bourgeoisie against a rising tide of revolution when the people themselves already support every war of aggression and every attack on workers rights?

The radical right is anti-political so can only hold meaningful power in culture (and in communal forms like militias/gangs).
The idea of the POTUS heiling hitler is impossible. America is founded on liberalism. The nation itself is a revolution, like the french republic or the british constitutional monarchy..
You have to remember too that the fascist powers of germany and italy where revolutions establishing a nation based on shared peoples (just like how the soviet coat of arms shows the national unity between the peasants and proles [the country and the towns, in classical distinction, which marx also identifies.]) It was a form of modernisation, the same way high speed rail is.
I think america could become a formal empire (which is the fate of all republics), but thats a difference in kind.

>>1811427
Go away, read a book or don't come back.

>>1811435
Is there a more specific way to explain what you mean by 'anti-political'? Do you mean that they believe politics should driven by might and dictation rather than collective organizational structures, so that they won't attempt to work within unions or electoral politics?

>>1811444
I mean that right wing praxis is something which generally strengthens the system by agitation, and is performed by individual actors usually, but it wins moral support of the generally disaffected. There is no right wing "theory", there is only anti-leftist theory, because the right is a movement of negation to ruling powers. This is why populism is always right wing, because it is pure vox. We can all imagine the disaster that direct democracy would be for the left.
I would say fascists are largely allergic to central organisation, and operate in dispirate insurrectionary efforts. The blackshirts for example were a gang who fought striking workers (the same way hitler saw strikes and unions as communist filth) and so were appointed to power by the ruling class. What pervaded in the fascist scene was the very platform of experimentation in art and politics, which flip-flopped between free markets and regulations, progressive and reactionary, and so on. The radical right has no central identity and so its power is always contingent and short-lasting. Like trotskyists say, it can be attributed to "capitalism in decline" which gives it the shortness of recovery in militarisation.
But someone like evola (who was not quite a "fascist", but was still sympathetic) was still against the bourgeoisie in spirit and fought for an aristocracy of the soul, the same way nietzsche did. Someone like yockey also actually collaborated with the USSR to find noble kin against the decadence of america, and killed himself because of his betrayal (at the cost of torture).
So, this "aristocracy of the soul" might indicate something substantive, but its still ambiguous and "anti-political" in its meaning. It is only the consolidation of a new sort of power itself.
Today however there are efforts to create a right-wing vanguard and so to create a political consciousness, with various strains offering their place into the pool of a counter-elite, but still, there is no doctrine, there is only reaction.

>>1810834
>CPUSAnon is correct, there's no way in hell that the skinheads and 4chan racists who consider themselves 'fascists' could ever take power in America. They have no political vision, organization or social base beyond a minority of edgy misanthropes. Even if they could cobble together a movement, they'll be politely escorted to prison by the FBI before ever getting close to Washington DC.
Why do you think American fascism would look like European fascism? The people you are talking about LARP as Europeans, but there were bunch of fascists walking into the parliament with the police doing fuck all. If fascism is coming to the US it's not gonna market itself as fascism - defeating the Nazis is still part of the American identity, similar to the Russia, surprisingly, where nazis call themselves liberal democrats.

So what could American fascism look like? I assume it would be heavily influenced by Evangelicals, with people like Copeland as grey eminence behind the scenes. It'd still call itself democratic, capitalist and classical liberal.

>>1810738
I guess I disagree here. America has a democratic tradition, but it was designed to be dysfunctional. Considering the crazy gridlock system of American politics, there is not much reshuffling needed for a power grab. Weimar Germany was also democratic, but dysfunctional, and Hitler took power by legal means. I don't know how the bureaucratic strata of the US ticks, which is necessary as a power base for fascism. Are they liberal? Or are they the caricatures of reactionaries progressives make them out to be?

>>1811481
Germany was a parliament though and so the nazis just stifled and filibusted any vote (while inciting tensions).
In america the president is elected as a single executive. The party structure just exists for the consolidation of common political interests (especially in the senate).
The president himself has no party he has to be loyal to.

>>1811483
That was the case in Weimar too, the President (Hindenburg) didn't have a party but could appoint Hitler as Chancellor by executive decree. That is why the current German President is just a figurehead nowadays.

>>1811258
>Those patriotic liberal democrats tend "believe in america" including its empire and are known hotspots for recruits to the CIA.
There's a liberal blog I follow with a comment section of boomers (who tend to be more educated), and when the left comes up or talking about the far left in the 1970s in the U.S., there are usually some people who will tell stories like "oh yeah, I was a Maoist" or knowing people in the Weather Underground at the time, or are former Communist Party members. Now they're just Democrats. But often the discussions about which *gestures to vague ideological assortment of people* the left should try to appeal to seems rather abstract. It begs the question: to do what? What demand are we making? I have to give credit to the people in the Palestinian youth movement who are organizing sustained demonstrations. They don't seem to care that much about appealing to so-and-so, instead they have clear demands (stop supporting Israel) and are willing to maintain focused pressure. I don't want to exaggerate their effect, but it does seem to have an effect at shifting what's acceptable to say, or creating a space for more people to speak out and break out of feelings of complacency and isolation.

>Those same patriots also believe that populism is the language of tyrants and get repulsed by any movement.
Populism is kind of vague and feels like kind of… giving in to the whims of whatever the "populace" wants while obscuring the political content therein. It has the potential to be democratic but more often than not it seems to acquiesce to the people's prejudices and fears.

>>1811256
i dont get it

>>1810736
>>1811023
>>1811035
As others have poignantly noted, I believe it is quite apparent from any Marxist analysis of the contemporary Base and Superstructure of the U$, that the Neo-Nazis/“Alt-Right”/White Supremacists/Skinhead LARPer degenerates have ZERO chance at taking power in the U$, due to their lack of institutional support from the Haute Bourgeoise (Wall Street, Silicon Valley, and the MIC won’t touch these clowns), and their lack of a Mass Base in the 21st Century U$, 😂🤣! Instead, the actual Fascist threat comes from the MAGAtard Evangelical Christian Zionist Republicans, due to the fact that it is the Evangelical Christian Zionist Fundamentalist Superstructure that truly uphold the Base of 21st Century U$ Imperialism (despite all of there lame attempts as “Woke” washing, any in-depth Marxist analysis reveals that the U$ Haute Bourgeoisie subtly prefers Evangelical Christian Zionism, due to the fact Religion is the “OG” opium of the masses, that has a millennia long track record of keeping the Proles/Peasants/Slaves loyal to ruling classes of Capitalist, Feudal, and Slave societies, which can’t be matched by any other Superstructural “Spook”), and posses a Mass Base among the Petit Bourgeois/Labor Aristocratic and Lumpen Proletariat White populations of the U$ South, and Rural/Suburban areas Nationwide, along with growing influence amongst assimilated Hispanics/Asians and the Comprador Bourgeois/“Uncle Tome” strata of Blacks/New Afrikans, with this Superstructure having ZERO need for Old fashioned White Nationalism and Racial “purity”, which is not dismiss that structural/systemic Racism still exists (it obviously does, as evidenced by the fact that New Afrika, Aztlan, and the First Nations are Oppressed Nations/Internal Colonies that are denied Self-Determination, with Mass Incarceration/“The War on Drugs” in particular being used to systemically oppress/corral/exploit these populations more then the White Settler majority), cut instead to suggest that the methods of 21st Century systemic/structural Racism have become abstracted to a point that makes them fundamentally different then the openly White Nationalist superstructure that existed before the 1960s, with a great example of this being that assimilated/Comprador elements of these Oppressed Nations are given a dramatically more privileged Statius, as long as they vote Republican (the De-Facto Ruling “Party of Power”, in contrast to the Controlled Opposition Democrats used to corral the “undesirable”/“problematic” elements), make money, and worship at Evangelical Megachurches, with the modern Evangelical Christian Zionist Magatard Republican Right subtly promoting “Race Mixing” (ie. most Black Republican politicians marry White women, have Mulatto Children, live in Bourgeois White Suburbs, and have obvious disdain for their Race/Ethnicity/Oppressed Nation), in order to accelerate the assimilation of the Comprador elements of the Oppressed Nations/Settler Colonies of New Afrika/Aztlan/First Nations etc. while the rest of these populations that refuse assimilation into the White Settler Nation are gradually eliminated by the Prison-Industrial Complex in a De-Facto Cultural Genocide, thus showing the Racist Dark side of the “Color Blindness” embraced by the Modern U$ right, 🤢🤮!


I also feel that this is great place to repost below my In-depth critique of CPUSA Anons misguided Idealistic view that the U$ “Melting Pot” is “Progressive”, 😂🤣🤢🤮✊😜!


Unfortunately, Comrade CPUSA anon, I have to disagree with you on the supposed “Progressive” nature of the Settler-Colonial Frankenstein Prison House of Nations “Melting Pot” Empire known as the U$, compared to the much hated Nation-States of Europe. As unpopular and controversial as this position is in the 21st Century across the entire U$ political spectrum (from the MAGAtard Evengelical Christian Zionists, to the Democrats, to U$ Revisionist “Communists”), it is no accident that Lenin and Stalin supported the Self-Determination of all Oppressed Nations in their own SSRs or ASSRs, with Soviet National Delimitation based almost exclusively on Ethno-Linguistic demographics, because as much as many want to claim that Nation-States are inherently Reactionary, they are Progressive compared to the alternative, which is De-Facto “Multinational” Settler-Colonial Empires where one specific ethnic group holds most political power and all the rest are oppressed and violently deprived of their National Self-Determination, thus creating a situation of De-Facto internal Colonies (ie. New Afrika, Aztlan, the First Nations, etc.), and this prevents Class Consciousness amongst the Proletariat as their is always a ready scapegoat for the Bourgeoise to use to corral the Proles from ever revolting against them due to them being to busy fighting each other over Ethno-Nationalist (Anti-Black and Anti-Immigrant sentiment, with this not limited just to White Proles, but also highly assimilated Hispanic/Asian ones as well) and/or Religious Culture War (ie. Homophobia, Transphobia, Sexism and general Pruidishness, as seen in Abortion Bans and “Groomer”/QAnon Moral Panics), due to the extreme Christian Fundamentalism amongst 50% of the U$ population. Thus, it is clear that the Settler-Colonial and Mutinational nature, combined with the Ultra-Reactionary Evangelical Protestant Superstructure (this traces its roots back to the Puritan Psychos at Plymouth Rock) of the U$, are some of the major reasons the U$ has much weaker Unionization and Social Safety Net then the relatively Secular and Ethnically Homogenous Nation-States in Western Europe (especially Scandinavia), meaning that your thesis that the U$ is more “Progressive” then Europe just because it is more ethnically/racially “mixed” is completely inaccurate and at odds with both the Marxist-Leninist principle of Self Determination for Oppressed Nations, and the objective reality that the U$ is on the verge of transforming into the most deranged Fascist Theocracy in history (it could dare I say, literally surpass Nazi Germany, assuming it concludes in Nuclear World War III with China, which could kill more people then both Prior World Wars combined) that will slaughter Millions at home and abroad if a certain “Orange” Man wins the 2024 election, which really neuters your idealistic assumption that “Pragmatism” is core ideology of U$ history (tell that with a straight face to the Genocided First Nations, New Afrikan Slaves, the Nuked civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the 20 million people slaughtered in U$ wars since 1945 across Asia, Latin America, and the Middle East, including the Civilians of Gaza that are being Murdered right now with U$ made Bombs), 😂🤣🤢🤮✊😜!

>Can fascism rise in the United States?
It already has just look at Genocide Joe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnn_bWDmizw
<Gabriel Rockhill, "Are Fascism and Liberalism Partners in Capitalist Crime?"
>ABSTRACT
>According to the dominant ideology, fascism constitutes an exceptional break with the protocols of liberal democracy, which has only happened at rare moments in the history of the West, such as in ᴉuᴉlossnW’s Italy and Nazi Germany. Liberalism is thereby postulated as a bulwark against fascism, an idea that’s been consolidated through the massive perpetuation of a historical narrative regarding the supposed democratic defeat of Nazism in WWII. This presentation will critically interrogate these assumptions by re-examining the historical relationship between liberal democracy and fascism. Have they always been opposed to one another, or do they sometimes work in concert as two capitalist ideologies? Is it really the case that liberal democratic governments in the imperial core serve as safeguards against fascism? If so, what are we to make of their imperialist foreign policies, their colonial histories, their general tolerance toward fascists, and their current domestic practices of draconian policing, mass incarceration, the militarization of borders, and the empowerment of vigilante militias? In addressing these and parallel questions, this talk will seek to develop a refined dialectical understanding of fascism and liberalism as capitalist modes of governance that are often partners in crime, while also avoiding any simplistic, ultra-leftist conflation between them.

Now to just throw that fishing pole in the water
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tech/Semiconductors/Huawei-building-vast-chip-equipment-R-D-center-in-Shanghai
>But while Huawei's compensation package is generous, its working culture can be challenging, according to chip industry managers.

>"Working with them is brutal. It's not 996 – meaning working from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., six days a week. … It will literally be 007 – from midnight to midnight, seven days a week. No days off at all," one Chinese chip engineer told Nikkei Asia. "The contract will be for three years, [but] the majority of people can't survive till renewal."

>Semiconductor equipment, like chips themselves, have been caught in the crosshairs of U.S. export controls. Washington has lobbied allies Japan and the Netherlands to implement similar restrictions on the export of advanced chip tools to limit China's access to them.

This might be worth an effortpost later; but I was reading Oswald Mosley's "The Philosophy of Fascism" and I think he incidentally hit on a perfect metaphor to explain the dividing line between Fascists and Communists.

I'm paraphrasing him a bit, but he brought up Caesar contra Spartacus. I think this is a fascinating comparison because it's, I'd argue, an ideal both sides aspire towards. The Fascist admires Caesar (as Mosley openly did) and the Communist admires Spartacus (as Marx, again, openly did). His argument was that Caesar as a historical personage as well as an ideal was opposed to both the elite patrician classes who were responsible for the decay of the old Republic, and the "chaos" unleashed by Spartacus.

It's an interesting comparison that I think strikes at the two paths a potential radical could go down. On one hand, you have Caesar: a man of excellent talent who nevertheless destroyed a corrupt and stagnant Republic to institute some kind of order. On the other, you have Spartacus: a slave who chose to die in the pursuit of freedom rather than scrape for Roman approval. It's less a specific category and more a state of mind: do you see yourself overcoming the Republic to save the society? Or do you see yourself as fundamentally a victim of that Republic, and thus destroying it to liberate yourself? It's something worth reflecting on at least.

The common mistake people make is assuming shit will happen exactly the same way it happened before. Like Hitler will just happen again, with Trump apparently (lmao) but no, fascism in America will just be an American fascism. Right now, it seems the closest route to fascism is the grassroots, christlarper nu-evangelicals who just openly talk about putting the "bad" people into camps. The "renegade" states like what Texas is doing is the closest to what's going on. I'm talking about their immigration temper tantrum and now their more blatant (literal) vanning of Palestinian demonstrators even in an allegedly "blue" city.

Some people downplay the new wave of evangelicals but their rhetoric is right in line. We got,
>trying to reduce the status of a woman to that of a "breeder" with their stay home, have babies, that's natural law rhetoric
>intense, comical fear of minorities unless they're anti-communist minorities like the bootlickers in Miami. Actually invoking Jesus's name when talking about them that's how scared they are.
>they claim they're individualists but they're constantly begging their state to put a stop to all that "woke" shit on the internet, usually focusing on a single popular polititian like Trump or DeSantis
>bootlicking CEOs now as long as they're "anti-woke"
Maybe that's falling into the trap of calling everything I don't like, "fascist" but I think that's what American fascism would look like. A grassroots, populist movement that organizes to get the political power to enforce targeted legislation designed to eliminate the "bad" people. It's all extremely popular with the nu-evangelicals. Ask them privately if they'd be okay with internment camps for transgender people and muslims and they'd say yes.

The old larp shit like Richard Spencer eventually failed because he appealed to "old" fascism. Turns out, when you start doing Hitler salutes, most Americans get turned off by that which is why it will only stay on /pol/ and even that shit has been beaten out by the christlarpers. No, fascism in America will be explicitly an American flavor. Something to appeal to the 1776 crowd while their economic condition gets worse and worse.

tl;dr I think talking about Nazi Germany is mostly a waste of time. Fascism in America will be American flavored rather than the same shit happening again exactly like before.

>>1810736
>Can fascism rise in the United States?
Already has.
Retard + Fuck off + Sage + /BurgerPol/.

>>1810738
>the U.S.A. had a constitution which was democratic from the start.
Except for anybody who wasn't a white land-owner (no girls allowed).
Except for the electoral college.
Except for the Senate not having equal representation.
Except for First Past the Post voting ensuring the emergence of a two-party duopoly.
Except for poll taxes and quizzes and tampering and voter intimidation…
Except for the legislative votes, executive policies, and judicial rulings being de facto decided by backroom deals, and briber being outright legal.
Other than that (and some stuff I'm forgetting right now), yeah sure. Democratic.
>And this democracy could, in substance, realize everything sought by Hitler without needing to break with democracy formally.
Hitler achieved power through the official democratic process and the stuff he did was legal. If anything you could argue that it was made more possible by the legalistic games he was playing. Meanwhile in the US the democracy is just a pretense that is routinely violated and ignored, increasingly in ways that are impossible to deny. The main trick the US likes to use is having the private sector and NGOs do the dirty work and only be "held accountable" with a slap on the wrist.

>>1835508
you chose the correct pic for your brainless post

>>1835382
>The old larp shit like Richard Spencer eventually failed because he appealed to "old" fascism. Turns out, when you start doing Hitler salutes, most Americans get turned off by that
Yeah, he was trying to import a European model but that can at most be a short-lived or polemical kind of thing, not something that will necessarily sync with Americans at the level of an organic, more deeply rooted, pre-existing ideology.

Due to the infeasibility of far right politics, I have noticed an interesting trend which is that different White nationalists tend to gravitate towards more leftist tactics and positions, or they decay to just bog standard neocons.

Fascism is generally understood to be a populist front directed by the forces of capital. The best manifestation of this in current year America is the public rallying behind pharmaceutical companies. These are essentially noble families who were exploiting the public with opiates etc. but suddenly a "pandemic" appears and the American people do anything the medical establishment says, their crimes suddenly forgotten, their treasuries swollen, and they acquired boundless power in the political economy. This absurd clinical regime, its mouthpieces, and its beneficiaries all find their counterparts in 20th century European fascism.

>>1838116
>generally understood
Aka its worst understanding. Materialist analysis tells you fascism was a specific thing in WWII. It won't happen ever again because anything that people point out as "fascism" today is easily a trait of liberalism and democracy and not exclusive to everyone's favorite boogeyman.

>but suddenly a "pandemic" appears
Oh you're one of those retards.

>>1838006
That’s pretty much what I made the study fascism thread to discuss, though I got barked down by folks howling Fascism is only when you kill leftists and the more leftists you kill the more fascist you are.

Which is exceptionally funny because one of the things I warned about was that Fascism done right splits the Left. Well I’ve seen at least two different Fascists advocate reading Mao and understanding Maoist tactics, and you’ve got nonsense like MAGA communism and patriotic socialism emerging. Welcome to a new era of rising National Socialism I guess. I warned ya.

Anyway almost everyone ITT is a pseud still drinking from the liberal koolaid. Whenever the state is openly repressive for any reason whatsoever, just like it's always been anyway, all of you begin screeching about "fascism" in order to defend bourgeois constitutionalism and rights without the slightest awareness of the fact that they've imbibed entirely liberal notions wholesale.

It's gonna get real bad this time guys I swear! Ignore that the proletariat has had it bad since ever.

Use ( ( ( memes ) ) ) to convince idiot 4chan siegefag nerds to groom each other into being cop killers. The burger cops are known to do training with the IDF, we can pretend all the CP they find on nazis is 'planted', and they already screech about that sherwood faggot. it won't be hard at all. Proxy warfare is how all the pros do it.

Just make up low effort shit like 'Thin Jew Line', it's easy, they'll love it.

I don't think so because its the eternal boogeyman of liberals, neoliberals with forever use it as a scare tactic to get useful idiots like antifa to do their bidding

>>1838296
You're right but you still say governments can one day push the fascism button but refuse to. It's a strictly historical thing that won't be repeated under the current conditions.

>>1810736
>Can fascism rise in the United States
No. Fascism was specific to countries which had both a strong dislike of international communism AND liberal capitalism. Let us not forget, fascism is not just "when the government does stuff and that stuff is antisemitic", fascism is control of BOTH Labor and Corporations by the state in such a way to benefit the state the most. All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state. It is a mixed economy model with dubious private property rights (a lot of privatizations were outright scams to extract money from foreign investors and domestic bourgeoisie and gradually that same national bourgeoisie became even more subservient to the state which restricted profits and meddled in governance of companies), however it is not communism because it supports private property and specifically petty bourgeois. Nevertheless, United States is only 10% more likely to accept fascism than communism (but 1.1 * 0 is still 0), because most Americans lean hard liberal on economics which means that even the smallest control of government in wealth distribution and welfarism, let alone corporate governance is entirely out of the question. On the other hand, Pinochet-like government is not just possible to manifest, but more and more probable with the decline of American regime.

Yes, read J. Sakai Shock of Recognition.

>>1838640
>read J. Sakai
Stopped reading there

>>1838635
>No. Fascism was specific to countries which had both a strong dislike of international communism AND liberal capitalism.
I suspect that also emerged because of particular conditions as an imitation of classical imperialist countries by the non- or less-imperialist countries of mainland Europe. This ends up making fascism look more like a real anti-systemic reactionary force, albeit on caught in the mechanisms of capital, or anti-capitalism as a crisis which destroys capital while also being internal to it, while seeking to break with the political superstructure of the capitalist world system. It's probably not a coincidence that it took hold in states that previously had some colonial expansion but had lost them in the half century leading up to its peak period.

Also probably not a coincidence that the modern regimes most closely resembling fascism are almost all located in the semi-periphery. None of these are fascist per se, but closer to that than anyone else and occupy a position similar to that of Italy before 1939. An American dictatorship meanwhile would probably look different, but whatever, these hypotheticals are of little worth anyway.

>>1838888
>Also probably not a coincidence that the modern regimes most closely resembling fascism are almost all located in the semi-periphery. None of these are fascist per se, but closer to that than anyone else and occupy a position similar to that of Italy before 1939. An American dictatorship meanwhile would probably look different, but whatever, these hypotheticals are of little worth anyway.

Y'know I think that's why Mosley's texts seem so interesting to me, because his Fascism was developed for the global hegemon of his time and thus took a departure from some elements of Italian and German Fascism. The most notable being how it was less expansionist and more "lax" or "liberal" in some regards. His focus was repeatedly on shoring up the existing hegemony, even at the cost of "making room" for competitors like Germany, Italy, and Japan.

You can kind of see a reflection of this in the MAGA movements broad focus on pseudo-isolationism. I call it pseudo-isolationism because they'd have no problem running to defend, say, Israel, but the expansionist project of NATO into Eastern Europe isn't something that interests them.

Granted Isolationism is a current that runs throughout American history. So it's not like Trump's movement necessarily is Fascist, rather it can appeal to Fascists in a similar manner to how Bernie's campaign could appeal to Socialists.

>>1810750
>they can't understand why the various shirts-militias existed in the first place, or what they did other than "fight leftists."
>Mosley's Blackshirts beat up tax collectors trying to get some church tithe from farmers. The Brownshirts sold cigarettes. ᴉuᴉlossnW's Blackshirts were more combat oriented, granted, but it wasn't like they didn't have people winning hearts and minds–Casapound set up a youth hostel and health clinic. The Falange supported workers co-ops.

to be fair, i remember them doing some flood relief work. still larping retards but still

these faggots marched through my town couple days ago

>>1838635
>>1838888
Figured I’d also say that “Fascist Anti-Capitalism” or opposition to liberal capitalism might not be a correct term. For example, if one were to hate Coca-Cola would they be considered “anti-soda”? Even if they drank Pepsi regularly? There are aspects of Capitalism Fascists dislike, but the fascist critique of Capitalism never ascends to a universal critique. In a way, the old fascist slogan “Me No Frego” (“I don’t care”) is a perfect encapsulation of it. Fascism doesn’t see it as a mission to banish Capitalism from the globe. Instead anti-capitalist fascism manifests in a kind of particularism. At times this can mean that they take radical steps that go beyond what a mere liberal or conservative is capable of—nationalizing whole industries or setting up state-run cooperatives, but it’s almost never moving towards a total abolition of Capitalism and the wage system. In fact Fascists who’ve read Kapital (of which there’s only a few, Mosleyites are most notable) argue that the various problems emerging from Capitalism result from finance capital rather than whomever owns physical capital. They broadly reject the quest to abolish capitalism in its entirety.

A good way to think about it is a metaphor I quite like—Caesar and Spartacus both recognized the slave owning patricians of the Late Republic as their enemies, but Spartacus did because he was a slave himself and Caesar was a populare. Spartacus sought to end the Roman slave system in its entirety. Caesar ultimately regulated the number of slaves a man could own to stabilize the Republic and improve the lot of the common Romans. Caesar, however, didn’t upturn the entirety of Roman slave society nor was he moving towards a general abolition of slavery.

And I think that gets to the root of the problem. Why Marxism has such a hard time in western countries (beyond mere suppression) it’s that for most of us, our class position isn’t necessarily that of the “slaves” of Rome (who Marx acknowledged as an ancient proletariat) but the Plebians. A Caesar seems more natural to us than a Spartacus.

>>1839002
Did they do anything besides do their historical reenactment scit?

>>1839212
they gave a speech at the capital building and then left

As stated above by the Lukacs quote I think fascism could be utilized only when US institutions utterly fail to solve their internal dissent. But this is very unlikely. Even if the Palestinian protests manage to form a vanguard, the police can respond with more force than doing arrests.

The fascists can grow by the state's complacency but don't really have a place in it. Unless the police and military forces in general are forced to retreat by the real movement.

>>1839212
>Did they do anything besides do their historical reenactment scit?
I've only seen them do LARP for the past few years. They could be relatively more physically confrontational when they were starting out… but not that much. They'd show up and make a lot of noise at anarchist events and try to scare them before booking it. The leader, Tom, was a member of a different group called Vanguard America and then took it over and changed the name after the demonstration in Charlottesville descended into mayhem. That's how Patriot Front started. There were a couple of guys wearing the Vanguard America uniforms that got violent (as well as James Fields, the guy who later went solo and drove his car into the crowd) but the group as a whole didn't seem like they were on the front lines of that so much.

I suspect the nature of the group (and this is probably true for most radical political groups) is that probably 10% of the people in it are actually willing or chomping to get violent, or can fight in some kind of way. The other 90% are nerds who'd panic. Certainly, you have to suspect that any group that marches around like they do attracts men with insecurity issues or who feel weak and powerless. They're potentially violent but they want to provoke people into lashing out at them first. They don't seem to have the kind of lunatic energy they (or some of them) did in 2017 right after Trump got elected.

>>1810736
It's already here, disguised as liberalism

>>1839242

I lurk and normally don't post because it's not my space, but just because this is the topic:

The "muh joos" is a bigger deal than most admit. I was a Libertarian then MAGA but I'm no basement virgin. A few years ago I started to admit the impotence of Liberalism to the point I started looking to the East for an ally, and have studied Arabic and Islam and even though I'm a serious Christian, I've grown an admiration for Islam and at least consider alternative possibilities including gnosticism, Sufism, etc.

The most deeply held LITERALLY religious beliefs I've finally got the point where I can at least comfortably "imagine" another alternative to orthodox Christianity. Also, now I DO feel genuinely very angry when I hear or see the brutality against Palestinians, but the driving force behind this was Jewish domination of the institutions and their ability to play both sides.

I've even started to use very Marxist type language criticizing Rothschild colonialism as well as responding to teachers that "criticizing systems of power often is uncomfortable" and "Nazi and terrorist are thought-stopping cliche's used to deny people sovereignty" I talk about "victim blaming" and the Sacklers as an opium war. I've tried reframing the "Nationalist movements" of Western Europe in the earlier 20th century as "indigenous Germans overthrowing their Zionist colonizers."

Most importantly, right now, for the first time, I'm at least able to comfortably "consider" in my mind an alternative to property. That's literally like a religious level barrier the mind normally won't even cross, similar to me at least considering Islam in my mind. And it's all due to being so fed up with the Hegelian dialectic Jews play called "Esaus Gambit.">>1839242

>>1839002
Why doesn't someone just shoot these guys or run them over? Not trying to fedpost genuinely curious why nobody's done it yet

>>1839553
>white nationalism presenting itself as a national liberation movement
You sound like a skitzo, but I do think it is possible to frame wn in such a manner. Perhaps if it was done by people who were sane and took their meds it could actually work. I could see this happening in Ireland because of their colonial history and their is a big anti-immigration moment in Ireland, but unlike in other countries with immigration, the Irish anti-immigration movent isn't dumb elderly conservatives but right wing smashes who burn buildings.

>>1839576
Because no on wants to go to jail.

>>1839595
come on, do something illegal. For the larp! Don't worry you will change the world shooting people, then, you post on facebook how much you have accomplished in jail!

>>1839599 (me)
t. Porky

>>1839595
and today there isn't no comparable movement like the panther's to mobilize public support for whoever runned over nazis with a car

>>1839622
I feel like there's plenty of support for violence against nazis, people are just too cowardly

>>1839074
>There are aspects of Capitalism Fascists dislike, but the fascist critique of Capitalism never ascends to a universal critique
Some of the national fascist party of Italy, mussolini included and literally half if not more of nazi party were previously involved with Marxist, communist parties. ᴉuᴉlossnW's father was also a communist. Now I don't know what happened to each and every one, I know that Hitler saw something that made him disgusted at communism, but he does not say what that was. But the rest, they did not just stop believing that capitalism was bad because Hitler said Marxism was jewish. People think only SA and Strasserists were Marxists but that is not the case. In his diaries, Goebbels expressed extreme discontent that Hitler labelled the (far left) economics of Socialism as something Jewish.
"It would be better for us to go down with Bolshevism than live in eternal slavery under Capitalism" - Joseph Goebbels
I don't know how the private property operated in the reich, there are books I didn't read but I know it had a massive welfare state. Job as a right. Subsidized housing. Nothing like that could be supported in the United States.
Semantics are besides the point though. Even if it was only a partial dislike of capitalism, American right does not dislike capitalism AT ALL. No, not even partially.

>>1840027
People forget that Hitler was dangerous to the left because he pretended to be a left winger. He talked like a left winger but governed like a right winger, at least internationally (he always sided with the capitalists over communists). That is how he managed to slip through and catch leftists off guard and kill them while maintaining popularity. Honest right wing dictatorships like Pinochet, they are not popular and have to be enforced via a foreign empire. Hitler on the other hand could sustain himself without any problems because of that. Talk is also incredibly important, I cannot stress this enough, how many leftist leaders gave Hitler planty of room and benefit of the doubt BECAUSE he talked like a leftist. Stalin did not think Hitler would attack him, even though he constantly went on shizo rants about Jude Bolsevism. If a honest right winger did that, he would prepare himself for an attack immediately.

>>1840027
>>1840032
Okay so elaborating a bit more on Nazism, Fascism, and Anti-Capitalism.

In the case of the Nazis they had one extremely good method for ensuring loyalty within elite strata, and that was good old fashioned nepotism. With a lot of Jewish people losing employment (especially in things like academia and white collar work) you could get far by just putting on the arm band, going to a few meetings, and flashing your party membership. Now I would characterize the Nazi party as much further to the Right than the Italian Fascists; for example the guy in charge of the German Labor Front, Robert Ley, was a drunk who'd wantonly embezzle union dues. By contrast the first head of the General Confederation of Fascist Syndical Corporations, Edmondo Rossoni, was a syndicalist that worked with the IWW, said that Capitalists would eventually be rendered obsolete, and scared industrialists enough that one of them mused on funding the Communists to fight the Fascists.

That said, the form that "anti-capitalism" took in the Nazi regime was fairly simplistic. The "Strength Through Joy" program implemented by Hitler and Ley was more or less an attempt at tiding workers over with bread and circuses. More interesting might be the creation of the Volkswagen and German autarky. The former was a case of Hitler demanding auto producers create a car for the German Public valued at about 1,000 marks I believe. When they said it wasn't feasible, the state stepped in to direct production. This was something of a PR victory for the Nazis and a chance to flex some supposed "socialist" credentials. Automakers couldn't produce an inexpensive, well-functioning car for cheap, so the state set itself towards it and succeeded. Then there's the matter of Autarky, which is tangentially related to the "Sea Power vs Land Power" conflict that pops up throughout the study of foreign affairs and geopolitics. Heartland theory, too. The interesting thing is that while "Sea Power vs Land Power" was developed predominantly by the British and Americans (sea powers both) and frankly biased in its analysis, it was later grasped on to by individuals from Land Powers and flipped on its head.

Sea Power vs Land Power

Apologies if that sounded incoherent, allow me to explain. British intellectual Hartford J. Mackinder analyzed geopolitics as a kind of conflict between "Sea Powers" of the West and "Land Powers" of the East. He attributed to "Sea Powers" a kind of innate liberalism, prosperity, and "civilized" quality that emanated from the relative freedom of the open ocean. He contrasts this with the East, which was the site of huge conflicts between nomadic warrior tribes that caused waves of migration Westward. To Mackinder, the "East" represented a kind of asiatic autocracy, militarism, and barbarism. In regards to Germany, in particular, he divides it. The Western German principalities, through trade via the Hanseatic League, had the "civilized" qualities of the Western, Sea Power nations. On the other end of Germany you had Prussian militarism as the representative of a kind of "asiatic autocracy" which he saw as perpetually in a life-or-death struggle with the civilized world.

Now what's interesting is that figures like Spengler (and Dugin today, I believe) flipped that dichotomy on its head. Rather than being mere "barbarians" Spengler claimed that Land Powers, again represented in Germany by militaristic Prussia, had a kind of noble collectivism in contrast to the individualist Sea Powers. The individual finds meaning via service to the collective whole. Values like self-sacrifice and discipline were noble traits to Spengler, in contrast to the turbulent and self-interested nature of sea powers. Finally, Spengler claimed that Land Power distinguished between trade and war, whereas to sea powers trade was a weapon in asymmetrical warfare. Spengler would go on to say that when a Land Power fights war, it usually goes for a decisive battle and discriminates between combatants and non-combatants, such that if your country were defeated, the civilian population wouldn't be purposefully endangered unless they chose to fight. To Spengler, the "sea power" method of warfare doesn't discriminate between combatants and non-combatants; they would sanction an entire country to starve civilians and soldiers both.

Understand that dichotomy, and German Autarky can make sense as a rational pursuit of sovereignty against the asymmetrical warfare of sea powers. Dugin shares those sentiments and applies them to a Russian context.

Fascist Corporatism and Anti-Capitalism
By contrast to the Nazis and their simplistic ideas of Capitalism and Socialism, (let's not forget Hitler essentially said "Socialism" to him meant "the common good" and Spengler called Marxism "the Capitalism of the working class"), Fascist Corporatism was at least more theoretically advanced. It at least had more foresight than simply reacting to problems as they occurred. It maybe had its highest theoretical expression in Oswald Mosley's economic thoughts and had a complicated history in Fascist Italy. If I remember correctly, ᴉuᴉlossnW didn't see corporatism as necessarily an end unto itself, so much as a means of quelling the turbulent social situation in Italy. In contrast to Hitler, ᴉuᴉlossnW was arguably more flexible with his enemies: pardoning some, hiring some, imprisoning others, releasing a few, etcetera.

The goal of corporatism was to replace class conflict with class collaboration. The premise being by giving workers and management both representation, with the all-powerful state acting as an intermediary, you could curb the worst excesses of Capitalism without a wholesale violent revolution. How the corporate form ultimately looked was subject to some vastly different interpretations; Lawrence Dennis in America perceived it as almost "buying off" the huge industrial enterprises. They would be absorbed into the state and lose some independence, while ultimately keeping their lives and property. Mosley took a more in-depth analysis, asserting that the ultimate goal of his Corporate state was to create a closed off internal market within the British Empire that would simultaneously allow wages to rise, work days to shorten, and ultimately: "world peace." I'm more familiar with his writings than most others given the relative ease in coming across English texts (given he was, y'know, English).

Mosley almost seems to graze Marxist economic thought. Certainly, a few of his followers were familiar with Marx. For example on war, I believe he asserted most wars were caused by nations seeking new markets as a result of overproduction which, it seems, is not too alien to Lenin's writings on Imperialism. Mosley very much believed in the state as a kind of "scientific manager" and it's reiterated in a lot of his writing. He emphasized the need to balance a nation's productive capabilities with consumption, his appeals to corporatism were an outgrowth of a kind of technocratic thought. He saw liberal democracy as ultimately unable to overcome economic crises in part because of the individual ignorance and inefficiencies of elected politicians. By turning the machinery of state over to technical experts and scientific management, he believed he could overcome the recurring crises of Capitalism without necessarily abolishing private property. He seems to believe way too much in the merit of managers, however, as he snidely remarked that Communism would mean having janitors and menial laborers making executive-level decisions.

In Summary some Fascists approached economic thought that almost appear anti-capitalist, but they'd never make the plunge into full Communism. Lawrence Dennis in particular seemed broadly sympathetic, as he decried America's imperialism in central America, repeatedly railed against Capitalism, but ultimately saw Fascism as the way forward, I think in part because the appearance Communism had in Western countries was that of causing a bloody civil war, murdering the entire upper class, then rebuilding from the ruins. To some extent it almost seems humanistic! An inability to wholly liquidate the ruling class and a hope that you could overcome them without killing them. I don't know enough to know whether anything from the autarky to the corporatist system could have succeeded; I'm not smart enough for that. But the results in ᴉuᴉlossnW's Italy were mixed. Even he admitted that the ruling classes fought tooth and nail against his more radical ideas, and it took them openly starting a civil war to state the "true" Fascist revolution could begin (at which point he nationalized something like 75% of Italy's economy) which was likely too little, too late.

>>1810834
or we could go like rome and get the american empire.

>>1810736
I had this same thought and asked my friend about it and what he thinks something like a Putin like illiberal democracy would start to come about.

>>1823820
what from what I know of Spartacus he never wanted total liberation of all roman slaves he just wanted not to be a slave. There was never this conscious you see now a days with the down trodden.

>>1840184
We know very little of the man himself, so he's become more symbol than man at this point. Even his motive, whether he wanted to simply flee with the rest of the slaves or seek wider social revolution, are still unknown to us. Let's not forget that Rome literally experienced a general strike among the Plebs early in its history.

>fascism is whatever phenomenon I don't like that isn't even exclusive to the only historical period where fascism was ever a thing, both before and after

Bourgeois states arresting and even murdering people is in fact quite a normal affair and has been since the beginning of bourgeois society. I'm reminded of Marx's sardonic line on 19th century Belgium, famous for massacring striking workers, here: 'The earth performs not more surely its yearly revolution than the Belgian Government its yearly Working Men’s massacre.'

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1869/belgian-massacre.htm

With just a little liberal brain rot, you can transform even Peterloo into an exhibition of 'proto-fascism'.

If one interprets it to mean that fascist methods were universalized by the state following WW2, it implies the opposite of what liberals are saying - instead of the US being fascist, fascism in reality does not exist anymore since it's been fully incorporated into the democratic state.

>>1842115
It'd be interesting if someone compiled an extensive list of crimes committed by bourgeois states before the October revolution of Russia. It would be an entertaining pastime to read over them in my free time.

>>1840160
>scared industrialists enough that one of them mused on funding the Communists to fight the Fascists.
Source for that claim?

>>1842147
Here's one that's been completely memoryholed by the whole country:
>The Santa María School massacre was a massacre of striking workers, mostly saltpeter works (nitrate) miners, along with wives and children, committed by the Chilean Army in Iquique, Chile, on December 21, 1907. The number of victims is undetermined but is estimated to be over 2,000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Mar%C3%ADa_School_massacre

>>1842153
And that's just one of the maaany massacres commited by the chilean state against workers, every single one is memoryholed. Looking at the current (pro-cop)political situation i'd even say Pinochet is forgotten to some extent too lmao
Here's another
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matanza_de_La_Coru%C3%B1a

>>1842153
>>1842233
lol https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor%C3%ADa:Masacres_en_Chile

this shit is infuriating, especially when the president of the c.u.t. wasted the international workers days speech on bootlicking the police just because some cops got killed by narcos

>>1842115
liberals brag about "defeating fascism" in ww2 and, largely, they did. they didn't eliminate it (franco, etc.) but did neuter it as a movement. however, this neglects that the WAY they did that was by absorbing it, and as such taking on a large number of its properties themselves

the main reason the fascist movement is so weak today isn't because it has been crushed, but because it has been assimilated. in a way, liberals have adopted so much of its ideological demands that's it's basically obsolete. they replaced rather than dissolved it, and this is why the major fascist movements today are almost entirely aesthetics based btw. because that's really the only thing worth demanding for a modern fascist as liberalism is largely just doing what they want less openly aggressively but more effectively

>>1842366
>liberals brag about "defeating fascism" in ww2 and, largely, they did.

Wrong once again, the Soviet union killed more then 76% of nazis germany soldiers

>>1842375
at least read a whole post before quipping

>>1842377
Well i don't have much to say about your post about modern fascist and liberalism being the same thing today, nothing that has already been said.

But the first point you made, that "liberals defeated fascism" is quite wrong. Liberals funded or ignored completely the fascist threat. They supported Franco and ignore completely the destruction of the treaty of Versailles, and so so much. The "liberals" are responsible to the spread of fascism, not its destruction. The soviets destroyed fascism. Those are opposites.

>>1842386
>they didn't eliminate it (franco, etc.) but did neuter it as a movement. however, this neglects that the WAY they did that was by absorbing it, and as such taking on a large number of its properties themselves
dude. read the post

>>1842152
<Source for that claim?

Italian Industrialists from Liberalism to Fascism: The political development of the industrial bourgeoisie, by Franklin Hugh Adler, Page 311

https://archive.org/details/italianindustria0000adle/page/310/mode/2up

>"At April, referring to information passed along to Donati, editor of the Catholic newspaper Il Popolo, Salvemini noted: 'An industrialist of Turin told Donati that in his circle people have begun asking themselves if it might now be wise to pay the Communists to fight the Fascists!' In early May, the future Communist leader Palmiro Togliatti wrote to Gramsci in Moscow that 'the industrial classes are rather wary of the new regime, fearing unpredictable developments in the class struggle with Fascist syndicates."

I believe the Salvemini he's referencing may be Gaetano Salvemini, who was a Socialist and anti-fascist, so it's not like this is coming from the regime itself or some super 4D chess propaganda.

Edmondo Rossoni, the person I was referencing, spent some time with the IWW and prior to becoming a Fascist, would even spit on the Italian flag, so it's not like he started as a virulent nationalist. It was, however, Racism he encountered in America directed at Italian workers that ultimately led him to rediscovering his nationalism.

He described, while a Fascist, industrialists as "Apathetic, Passive, and Ignorant" and believed that under Fascism the workers would be trained in the running of large enterprises with the goal of ultimately taking them over and doing away with a capitalist/industrialist class in its entirely.

>>1842391
How does that part of your post makes the argument presented invalid?