/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

who give a shit

>>1812443
>Then gender is completely arbitrary and meaningless and you are identifying as something subjective

Yes, but it is arbitrary and meaningless in the same way as a nation, a border, or a race. Theyre not transhistorical realities, but they are still realities that variously shape people and are shaped by people in a dialectical fashion.

>>it’s all of them at once
>Can’t be. They contradict

Medicalism is widely disliked by most younger trans people as a definition, for exactly the reasons you mentioned: its a pathologization without any consistent scientific backing. The other two however are easily reconciled. Gender is "performance", but you dont get free choice in what you want to perform. Thats why nonbinaries who clearly present more male or female seem so ridiculous when they get very upset theyre assumed to be what they present as – its an attempt at linguistically subverting a form of communication that is not linguistic. Androgny is easily understandable, butch lesbians and twink gays have been perfectly accepted as a spectrum within homosexuality forever. "Some gays are girly and some are manly." As to why people are trans or why its "legitemate", I dont know the answer to the first and I dont see why the second even needs to be a question. If I was going to speculate I'd say that atomization and individualization in contemporary market societies withers away much of the necessity for gendered division of labor, and without a strong material incentive for discrete gender roles, the physiological basis for gender becomes much less intuitive. I think that a lot of people have always been deeply uncomfortable with their gender through history, but the family as a reproductive unit meant that when and where "third genders" existed they were usually highly ritualized and/or placed in a distinct caste. And by deeply uncomfortable I'm not only referring to trans people necessarily, I dont think "trans" itself is a transhistorical category, needing to prove or demonstrate ones masculinity/femininity is standard in every culture I'm aware of. As a simple example a lot of men just arent competitive, a lot of women are, and I dont know whether theres a neurological or hormonal etc etc component to "transness" (and I think neurology as a field so vastly overstates its knowledge of the brain that I am skeptical of a conclusion either way), but its simply not a stretch for me at all to assume on this basis (extrapolating anxieties about not being a "real man") that there are plenty of people who are for whatever reason deeply uncomfortable with the gender theyve been sorted into and feel far more comfortable as the opposite gender or with androgny.

That is my honest opinion in good faith. But I'll clarify that I genuinely do not understand the trans panic shit at all, I just get no disgust response whatsoever from the concept or the reality of "transness" to the extent that I cant help but be suspicious its somehow overcompensatory theatrics, conscious or otherwise, like men who make a big show out of being disgusted by menstruation.

Transgender people’s validity grows out of the barrel of a gun

People only say other people are "valid" insofar as somebody is trying to push the idea that they are not "valid," which is to say not deserving of life or freedom from hate crimes. That's literally all there is to it.

>>1812443
>What is your basis for determining whether or not a person is actually transgender and not a “transtrender?”
I don't have one but I'm not sure "gender" is even a thing, or at least it's a thing we need to get over. (There are some good signs: even country-western is playing with gender these days.)

>Then gender is completely arbitrary and meaningless and you are identifying as something subjective, and thus the identity is pointless.
There seems to be some problems with wanting races and genders to amount to political ideologies, yeah. Like it has more to do with social formations than arguments or reasons or positions (where politics is never-ending 50/50 war of boys against girls). But that's actually the way people talk: you betrayed your gender! Or like, my political party looks like gigachad, and your party is made out of soy and estrogen. Who controls the hormones controls the future. It's not totally irrational, though, or like… it makes sense that people group up under the name "transgender" (or something equivalent) when being singled out and attacked by governments for betraying some ideological / made-up / metaphysical "nature" BS. We're not exactly talking about the periodic table here, they're things we're making. Not sure every trans woman would agree with that. Kind of going a little Judith Butler here.

>Come up with your own philosophical basis for the validity of being transgender.
Unqualified respect for individual liberty and autonomy. Not my business, basically. Or an actually liberatory politics, in other words. Therefore, I support many gender radicals, cross-dressers, and sexual subversives – no questions asked. And anarchist hatred for bathroom police popping in on people unexpectedly and thoroughly inspecting their gonads (especially children!), which is a useless exercise if I've ever heard of one.

Just don't try to sort strangers into "valid / invalid."
>Okay. What if a chinlet, attempting a gotcha, tells you he is a woman? He is obviously not. On what basis can you prove he is lying?
That hypothetical chvd isn't your friend / aquaintence anyway. You can tell good faith and lack thereof.

Just look into the biology at a college+ level, you'll realize that "biological male / female" are just kindergarten abstractions so parents don't get pissed their kids are learning about mitochondria being The Powerhouse Of The Cell.

>>1812470
/thread
garbage would have been deleted on sight on old leftypol

>>1812514
It usually gets deleted on sight here, but the jannies have gaps in their shifts, or wanna make an example of it or something.

>Okay. What if a chinlet, attempting a gotcha, tells you he is a woman? He is obviously not. On what basis can you prove he is lying?

who fucking cares dude

>>1812514
true but to be fair old /leftypol/ was so strict on idpol that it did become insular about it in a way that nurtured some out of touch analysis (as well as some genuinely good stuff, the harry potter screencap comes to mind). at the time that was strictness appropriate because left-libs were at their height & /leftypol/ was one of the only places to escape being immediately banned if you said retard. but thats not the situation anymore, trans panic is in full swing and it would be ridiculous not to discuss it. would be like someone making fun of hamas for being "spooked"

>>1812524
are you really comparing american teens chopping their dicks off to the palestinian national liberation struggle?

>>1812529
literally every trans woman I know irl is destitute and impoverished while having to rely on grey/black markets (usually sex work) in order to survive. The logic behind the Israeli killzones and exclusion of palestinians from "normal society" and the systematic impoverishment of them is the same logic as what is used in the terms of transmisogyny.

Transfeminization is not an american phenomenon, on the contrary, transmisogyny is well-documented as primarily a product of british imperialism, most prominently occuring with the state violence committed against Hijras.


Anyway yeah mods nuke this thread this is just retarded

>>1812529
>american teens chopping their dicks off

You are next
TIME TO CHOP CHOP

>>1812443
>a just-so story not supported by mainstream research
thats not true doe

>>1812532
>unironically doubling down on his shit take
god i hate westoids so much

>>1812541
>westoids

Touch some grass

>>1812541
I'm not a westerner (born in moscow btw) but keep reaching instead of actually critiquing anything and just sliding into reactoid nonsense

>>1812544
>CGTN America

Holy fuck, based China combatting trans disinfo?

>>1812544
>trans people are 0.3% of shooters
>they are 0.5% of the population
so doing a little of the old pol math, trans people are underrepresented among the mass shooters. they are 40% fewer than you would expect based on population.

>>1812443
The whole problem with the "discourse" surrounding trans people is that "gender" is used in two vastly different ways but are constantly being conflated by both bad actors and well-intentioned idiots- the overwhelming majority of people use it simply as a polite term for a person's sex, while feminists use it as a synonym for sexist stereotypes despite the fact that equating the concepts of "male-ness" and "female-ness" with said stereotypes is the very thing they claim to oppose.
Until relatively recently, in the context of trans people "gender" was used in the first way, hence the original term being "transsexual", with many people trying to bring it back in order to clarify that. The people who claim to be trans on the basis of the feminist definition of the term completely misunderstand the issue and are basically just appropriating it as a way of gaining social capital within certain circles or to show that they're "not like the other girls", these people typically only "transition" as far as putting "she/they" in their social media profiles but are responsible for all the most offputting demands like pronoun circles or "de-gendering" language and such.

>Medical: transgender identity is valid only if you are “a woman’s brain trapped in the body of a man”
The way you put it is kind of cliche but is more or less the correct position
>Not only is this a just-so story not supported by mainstream research
There's no shortage of research showing that the sexually dimorphic sections of transsexuals' brains are closer to those of the sex they transitioned to than the one they were born as.
My personal tinfoil hat theory around the denial of the medical nature of the issue from both anti- and pro- trans activists is that its a deliberate attempt to shield corporations from lawsuits for the effects of environmental contamination which may be linked to transsexualism- there was a study a while back showing that pollution was affecting the hormonal development of wildlife but it was basically memory-holed thanks to the infamous "turning the freaking frogs gay!" Alex Jones rant shitcoating and misrepresenting the issue. I can't remember the name off the top of my head but there had already been a lawsuit against a pharma company for a medication that was linked to transsexualism when used by pregnant women, its predictable that they and other corporations would want to avoid a repeat of that and instead place the blame on their victims themselves.
>but wouldnt this also place transgenderism under the label of abnormal mental condition, such as autism?
Call it whatever the fuck you want, but medical transition has been found to be the only effective treatment for it. The best "alternative" that has been found basically fried the subject's brain and turned them into a vegetable.
>It would also show transgender identity is less about gender
If you're using the feminist version of the term, yes, they're unrelated
>and more about perverse sexual fantasies such as autogynephilia
How the fuck are you equating a neurological condition with a paraphilia?
>Plus, the vast majority of self-identified transgender people do not meet this criteria and would disqualify the vast majority of genderqueers.
Correct, the whole notion that "transgender is an umbrella term" is the result of people conflating two completely different concepts as I previously mentioned.

><Presentation and Expression: gender is what you show to the world and it is about your performance of gender in society
> is incompatible with feminism—this argues that gender roles define womanhood, while feminism says gender roles restrict and oppress womanhood.
If anything this notion is the product of the feminist conception of "gender" being taken to its logical conclusion, if you define the very concept in terms of sexist stereotypes then its logical for people who don't strictly conform to said stereotypes to call themselves "non-binary" as a way of showing that they're rejecting them. The problem is that its purely an ideological position and has nothing to do with actual transsexuals in and of itself, and is only related in the sense that people keep conflating them.

>Come up with your own philosophical basis for the validity of being transgender. Specify if you think transgender people “become a woman” or if they “were always a woman.”
The fuck does this even mean, why are you asking for a philosophical basis for a medical issue?
The simplest way of understanding the issue that I can think of would be to consider the fact that every fetus starts out female while some become male later on during development- transsexualism is when something goes wrong with this process for whatever reason.

>>1812558
>gatekeeping gender
that pic is hilarious

>>1812558
>research showing that the sexually dimorphic sections of transsexuals' brains are closer to those of the sex they transitioned

please provide. not a challenge, i'd like to see them

>pic related

its a good thing you made sure 2nd girl was mean and annoying, so that i know she is wrong, because it would be confusing if i didnt have a reason to hate her. but 1st girl is sad and humble, which is appropriate for a faggot that cant help it, so ill throw her some sympathy on the condition that shes suffering. after all, everyone knows communism is when youre poor and sad.

>>1812443
I refuse the question.

>>1812521
OP is funnily falling into that stupid fallacy that your identity makes your arguments more or less correct, lmfao.

>>1812565
Based

>>1812470
>leftist can’t care to explain his standard for truth
Color me shocked!

>Not only is this a just-so story not supported by mainstream research, but wouldnt this also place transgenderism under the label of abnormal mental condition, such as autism? It would also show transgender identity is less about gender and more about perverse sexual fantasies such as autogynephilia
Your bias is showing OP. If autists can have a semblance of a normal life by injecting themselves with hormones they'd 100% do it, and we will all be the better for it. By the same logic, if trans people can cure their dysphoria by transitioning, literally the only logical medical step is to support them doing so. You're trying to stigmatize them by using flowery words such as "perversion" and "abnormality", but it all comes down to you thinking that trans people should not cure themselves because deep down you hate them curing themselves and you'd prefer people who are mentally suffering to kill themselves because the cure disturbs your believe in a normative gender system.
>>1812532
Have you considered that teens who chopped off their balls are the demographic who are most sympathetic to victims of imperialism?

>>1812532
b-b-b-but what about all the rich trans programmers working for the military and big corpos just like in the memes????? XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

>>1812577
In many ways, the transgender crisis is the ultimate litmus test. You see people especially on imageboard whining about the deranged nature of sexuality; tfw no gf, how annoying chinletbots' performative masculinity, how toxic and dangerous traditional feminimity, how much of a bullshit the traditional gender responsibility is. Yet the most obvious resolution to this contradiction; namely by mainstreaming transgenderism to subvert traditional sexuality and all its vapidness, is being vehemently rejected by the same demographic that are considered biorefuse by traditional sexual standards. Those who whine about transgenderism and transhumanism wants to have their cake and eat it too. The conservative only sees horror and chaos in degeneracy, not its destructive revolutionary potential.

>>1812577
>Have you considered that teens who chopped off their balls are the demographic who are most sympathetic to victims of imperialism?
you jest but they literally are lmao. The regular pro-palestine protests that occur here are all organized by queers

>>1812558
Is a “person assigned male at birth” a woman from the get-go, or do they “become” a woman later when they transition, in your view? It seems you’d have to believe the former in order to be consistent, but that would make gender a purely neurological thing.

>>1812486
You seem to misunderstand.
What condition(s) must be met for a biological male making the statement “I am a woman” to be true?

>>1812586
gender is a social construct in a similar way to how a caste system or race are socially constructed and therefore gender dysphoria is mainly a form of dysphoria (which is defined as "a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life.") which pertains to being unhappy with gender roles that have been thrust upon oneself which forces them to behave or work in certain social roles which restrict them from achieving success or financial stability.

>>1812588
The same as the conditions for a biological female making the statement "I am a woman" to be true: none.

>>1812594
Am I to understand you believe truth is absolutely conditionless? That reality itself is without basis? Would you like to reformulate?

>>1812590
How am I to verify that a transgender person is the gender they claim to be? Because you agree their gender (social construct or not) exists independently of what they think about it, right?

>>1812443
Shut up and respect [CURRENT YEAR] hegemonic anglo talking points.

>>1812600
Gender is a social construct and is not "real" in the sense that you mean.

>>1812602
>How am I to verify that a transgender person is the gender they claim to be?
You aren't. Mind your own business.

>muh transhistorical universal values
lmaoing @ op

You are a dumb cracker. You are the whitest retard gorilla cracker I have ever seen.

>>1812560
>muh gatekeeping
"Gatekeeping" in the context of trans issues was only an issue in the past precisely because it was done on the basis of the feminist definition of "gender", that is to say that transsexuals had previously been denied access to medical care if they didn't conform to sexist stereotypes. There's nothing wrong with "gatekeeping" in the sense of having a coherent and internally consistent understanding of an issue, a term that can mean whatever the fuck you want is functionally meaningless.
>>1812564
>please provide. not a challenge, i'd like to see them
Here's a pretty good compilation of a bunch of different trans-related studies, the stuff about neurological differences between sexes starts on page 24 and the stuff about trans people specifically is on page 37
https://pdfhost.io/v/xlKhxp5Ld_Statistics_and_Studies_of_Transsexuals.pdf
>>1812586
>Is a “person assigned male at birth” a woman from the get-go, or do they “become” a woman later when they transition, in your view?
Honestly this seems like kind of a pointless semantic question, but I guess I'd say that a trans person's neurological structures have always been the opposite of the sex the rest of their body is born as, and the whole purpose of medical transition is to change the body's sex characteristics to match the brain.
>>1812590
>gender is a social construct
You're operating from a fundamentally different definition of "gender" than the overwhelming majority of people use, and which included trans people until academics forced this shit on them. Conflating the two is incredibly harmful and plays a huge role in all the confusion and idiocy surrounding the subject in recent years.
>gender dysphoria is mainly a form of dysphoria (which is defined as "a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life.") which pertains to being unhappy with gender roles that have been thrust upon oneself
Gender dysphoria has fuckall to do with sexist stereotypes and would still persist even if they were eliminated or completely reversed. Its the result of a mismatch between one's neurology and their body's sex characteristics, if a trans person was stranded alone on a deserted island they would still be trans.

>>1812617
>I DEMAND to see your credentials for your gender.
Pervert.

>>1812618
>people should only have access to medication if doctors say so
that is literally gatekeeping

>>1812622
Do you think someone should be able to just stroll on down to the pharmacy and grab a few bottles of opiates for shits and giggles?

>>1812628
i dont see why not

>>1812628
yes and I'm not kidding

>>1812619
Disingenuous

>>1812618
It’s not pointless semantics it’s literally the core of what if anything makes transgender identity valid

>>1812628
Obviously yes

>>1812636
Obsessed

>>1812637
Your problem is that you want to argue that transgender people aren't valid while at the same time that gender itself is, when the reality of the situation is that transgender people have a much more robust body of evidence supporting their reality while gender is overwhelmingly demonstrated to be historically contingent.

>>1812618
>Here's a pretty good compilation of a bunch of different trans-related studies, the stuff about neurological differences between sexes starts on page 24 and the stuff about trans people specifically is on page 37
>https://pdfhost.io/v/xlKhxp5Ld_Statistics_and_Studies_of_Transsexuals.pdf

where are the citations? why does this collection of studies not have any studies listed? even though i am ultimately skeptical of neuroscience as a field (in terms of its experimental method and conclusion, not its method) i know that there are real, peer reviewed medical studies of the brains of trans people that claim to demonstrate their similarity to the claimed physiological gender compared to what they were assigned. that is what im asking for.

btw this me >>1812471, i am not arguing trans people "arent real" or arent """valid""", i am specifically asking for evidence that trans people are physiologically different from birth

>>1812641
>I am specifically asking for evidence that trans people are physiologically different from birth
They aren't, also remember epigenetics are a thing so not everything concretely provable in biology is set from birth.

>>1812630
>>1812633
Would you say that the Sackler family did nothing wrong, then?
>>1812637
>It’s not pointless semantics it’s literally the core of what if anything makes transgender identity valid
How so? Hypothetically, if someone were to scoop out a man's brain and put it in a robot body, is he still a man? What if the robot body is made to look female, or the reverse with a woman's brain? I'd argue that the brain is what actually matters in such a scenario
>>1812641
>where are the citations? why does this collection of studies not have any studies listed?
…You know you can click the links to the original studies, right? Most of them are from places like ncbi.nlm.nih.gov , which include links to the full text near the top of the page

>>1812648
>Would you say that the Sackler family did nothing wrong, then?
Prescription is an entirely different issue from bodily autonomy and being able to freely ask for pharmaceuticals on your own volition. Don't be dense

>>1812648
>…You know you can click the links to the original studies, right?

i didnt see links when i read before and was specifically looking for any citations, and now when i try to open it its telling me the pdf is broken. but maybe thats on my end, please resend if you can.

Feelings of gender have an evolutionary beneficial function in social intelligent animals like humans. Since our intelligence is relatively new in terms of evolutionary time scales, it is an additional features botched to the rest of your dna depending on a myriad of genes and feedback mechanisms and developmental psths. This means that some people have genetics that have a strong sense of gender identity and some dont. And because its a shoddily constructed feature, sometimes something goes wrong during development, causing a mismatch between the bodily phenotype and the gender configuration of the brain.

This is also why "trans race" isn't a thing. There is no evolutionary feature that causes you to fundamentally feel white or black or Chinese or whatever. And as for reactionary retards who claim to be women to take the piss out of trans women, just offer to put them on hrt and cut off their dick, they will back down quickly enough.

>>1812618
>if a trans person was stranded alone on a deserted island they would still be trans.
No they wouldn't. Not only would they detransition without hormones, but gender would cease to exist for them, because there is no society to speak of to enforce gender roles upon them.

>>1812656
(Once you accept this simple truth the whole gender debate is solved. Also gender being real and gender roles being oppressive go together perfectly fine, unless you also think that if you say the way children are treated as less than human historically being oppressive means children aren't real.

>>1812658
Hogwash

>>1812650
The whole point of pharmaceuticals is to address medical issues, they're not candy.
>>1812653
Still seems to be working for me on pdfhost but here you go
>>1812656
>just offer to put them on hrt and cut off their dick, they will back down quickly enough.
Trouble is that the "self ID" crowd insist that someone who does absolutely nothing to actually transition is just as "valid" as legitimate trans people
>>1812658
>gender would cease to exist for them, because there is no society to speak of to enforce gender roles upon them.
You are operating off an entirely different definition of "gender" from the overwhelming majority of the population, holy fuck how many times do I need to say this. Being trans has nothing to do with sexist stereotypes.
You're every bit as disingenuous as the zionists who claim that "umm being anti-zionist is actually antisemitism, sweety"

>>1812664
wow its le funny painting this person must be very funny

>>1812662
>The whole point of pharmaceuticals is to address medical issues, they're not candy.
not to me

>>1812665
I wasn't trying to be funny. It's the "opinion I know is going to be controversial but I'm going to say it anyway" picture.

>>1812667
nope its a funny meme picture

>>1812662
for whatever reason my pdf reader was showing the links only as underlines earlier, thanks anon. cant promise ill get a chance to review this unless the threads still up next week

>>1812668
No one I've ever seen using that picture was making a joke. They typically use it to say something they think is an unpopular or polarizing opinion.

>>1812662
>Trouble is that the "self ID" crowd insist that someone who does absolutely nothing to actually transition is just as "valid" as legitimate trans people
You will be hard pressed to find people who identify as the opposing gender and do nothing to socially transition. Medically transitioning is quite an involved step, with lots of surgery, recovery and loss of the ability to have biological children.
The people who don't do any transitioning and claim noncis identities usually have either no strong feeling of gender identity or a mixed gender configuration.
The self id argument, in my experience, is just a way to get rid of the gatekeeping of being allowed to transition by conservative elements in medical and civil society.

Doing your mom
I'm doing your mom

>>1812664
Smiling is a mental condition.

You can even diagnose it.

>>1812702
I don't think smiling makes you trans.

>>1812702
yo I think I know who I wanna RP as next. This was a mediocre show but nice characters.

Still not a single coherent reply to OP.

>>1812470
fpbp

>>1812443
The implicit corollary to this question is “what is a woman?” or the question of what gender actually is and means. Leftists can’t give the only truthful answer that gender is your sex + those non-arbitrary norms/roles prescribed to your sex, so we get millions of contrived answers that are just more elaborate ways of saying “it doesn’t really matter man,” because they don’t actually have an answer

>>1812884
Or, if you have a definite answer, you get banned because an answer is necessarily going to exclude someone who becomes a power tripping janny.

>>1812884
"it doesn't matter" is a perfectly correct and apt answer in the sense that it's (entirely) a social phenomenon and not materially tangible except in its social-consequences. It has relations to sex but these are not universal relations, as such things are economic and thus no universal law of any kind is possible. Are you even a Marxist?

>>1814860
>are you even a Marxist
No, I’m sane

>>1812543
>MoSSKKKals thinking somehow they arent the same whiteoid creature as any amerikkkan
interesting