/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

idpol is retarded
no one is asking people to just forget the color of their skin or pretend that today there isn’t different treatment between parts of the proletariat (racism, sexism, xenophobia, etc), what people mean by being anti-idpol is a desire not let any of that get in the way of class politics
>People are oppressed and have unjust hierarchies placed on them
yeah that’s called the proletariat

Idpol on this board means "bringing attention to social issues" and not actual idpol

people are not "equal", so of course we should benefit and support the oppressed, even if it breaks the liberal ideal that """all men are equal""", even in the early stages of communism.

>Soviet autonomy is not a rigid thing fixed once and for all time; it permits of the most varied forms and degrees of development. It passes from narrow, administrative autonomy (the Volga Germans, the Chu-vashes, the Karelians) to a wider, political autonomy (the Bashkirs, the Volga Tatars, the Kirghiz); from wide political autonomy to a still wider form of it (the Ukraine, Turkestan); and, lastly, from the Ukrainian type of autonomy to the highest form of auton-omy—to contractual relations (Azerbaijan). This flexibility of Soviet autonomy is one of its prime merits; for this flexibility enables it to embrace all the various types of border regions of Russia, which vary greatly in their levels of cultural and economic development. The three years of Soviet policy on the national question in Russia have shown that in applying Soviet autonomy in its diverse forms the Soviet Government is on the right path, for this policy alone has made it possible for it to open the road to the remotest corners of the border regions of Russia, to arouse to political activity the most backward and nationally diverse masses and to connect these masses with the centre by the most varied ties—a problem which no other government in the world has solved, or has even set itself (being afraid to do so!).
(…)
>But no matter what aspect the administrative map of the future Russia may assume, and no matter what shortcomings there may have been in this field—and some shortcomings there certainly were—it must be acknowledged that by undertaking an administrative redivision on the basis of regional autonomy Russia has made a very big stride towards rallying the border regions around the proletarian centre and bringing the government into closer contact with the broad masses of the border regions.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1920/10/10.htm

What is important for the proletarian? For the proletarian it is not only important, it is absolutely essential that he should be assured that the non-Russians place the greatest possible trust in the proletarian class struggle. What is needed to ensure this? Not merely formal equality. In one way or another, by one's attitude or by concessions, it is necessary to compensate the non-Russian for the lack of trust, for the suspicion and the insults to which the government of the "dominant" nation subjected them in the past.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/dec/testamnt/autonomy.htm

Idpol should because the vast majority of issues spouted by the radlibs is a nothing burger

"Idpol" is an unserious term to begin with. It's an idealist illusion, reducing the struggles of women, black Americans, third world nation states etc. into one big "distraction" from the building of some sort of fast food socialist fantasy world. I could tell you about "its" relevance but "it" doesn't really exist. For example the current struggles of Asian Americans with racism in the USA is by nature a struggle against imperialism, which encourages and uses this racism as a cudgel against its unexpected rival the PRC.

In a lot of cases, our "idpol" struggles have been and always will be anti-capitalist, but white people think we don't "get" that and need the class nature of our movements explained to us. Not talking about you obv OP, we seem to mostly agree but i wanted to add this.

All politics is identity politics

>>1821919
Kys

>>1821864
Any movement that pits workers against other workers is automatically shit.

>>1823036
If the ""workers"" are fascists, they deserve it, like any other fascist.

>>1821864
Liberation from unjust hierarchies isn't idpol, idpol is 'you can't have an opinion because you're a white male' and so on

>>1821864
LMAO WTF? This is retarded drivel. Economics is all encompassing. The only thing that matters is how much surplus goes to yourself and maximizing that.

>>1823039
Fascists are a product of their shitlib environment. I've seen fascists reform themselves once they secluded themselves from online radlibs platforms and their shit opinions. Hell, I would say that idpol is directly responsible for creating fascists

>>1823101
i agree

The critiques of "idpol" that I tend to agree with focus on the liberal NGO-ization of, say, racial discrimination. Or social justice activists who make a living on it despite claiming to fight against racial discrimination because it's their business. If racial discrimination went away, would they lose their jobs? As a result, they start to hunt around for racism to fight like they're searching for "WMDs" in a country as an excuse to bomb the hell out of it for the sake of the economy. But that doesn't mean racial discrimination isn't an existential contradiction.

BTW, this has a similar cause-and-effect structure with capitalism and the working class. The working class does struggle against capitalism because capitalism causes oppression on the proletariat. But the proletariat fails to totally negate capitalism so they become symbiotic with it – they can't live without capitalism. Then they justify that material bond with social democracy or nationalism or Evangelical Christianity.

So the idea that "idpol" can be corrupted or become part of capitalism and "class politics" cannot is a dangerous myth which is just not true. It's also true for the working class. Class politics is not an irreducible remainder. It's also the case regarding World War I that the workers were willing to die for stupid war games, which Lenin defined as the labor aristocrats who sleep in the same manor house as their oppressors.

>>1823039
Fascists yeah idgaf about them
But most of them are not fascists just people averse to transgenderism and liberal virtue signaling.

>>1823957
Idpol is anything but ending oppression these days. Idpol is telling white people they have to open up their wallet for black people because of what their great-great-great-great-grandfather did 200 years ago. Idpol is coming up with how the next inanimate object they walk past is racist and needs to be redesigned by a poc.
Wrestle back idpol from the radlibs and maybe everyone's views will change

>>1824216
Actual idpol is white "leftists" revealing they actually do believe in the idea of the white race after all and align it and themselves with the American state simultaneously, such that they see reparations demanded of the US government and US capitalists as a demand made upon themselves, as a "race"

Picrel, about a quarter of USian white "leftists" when you as a "PoC" directly confront the US state and capitalist class with demands they cannot and will not fulfill without armed struggle

Idpol theory is mostly useless.
Idpol advocates posthoc claim anything that early Marxists achieved dealing with problems created by capitalism within marginalized communities as their own project despite the term not being coined until the mid 1970s. Nothing would have substantially changed discursively if the Combahee River Collective never existed.

>>1823101
Fascoids usually have a petit porky class background.

>>1821864
Being against liberal idpol isn’t the same as accepting bigotry or dismissing identity issues altogether, it means dismissing liberals’ puritanical culturalism

/thread

ID pol is a tool used by the ruling class to distract from class issues

>>1824282
>Operation protect the gays
lmao

>>1824282
As if that wasn't obvious more than a decade ago. OWS was halfway decent before the liberals came in with their "progressive stack" bullshit

Idpol in liberal capitalism means that the ruling class tolerates rich foreigners or rich homosexuals. It was never about equality.

economics is not mutually exclusive with any of that, all of these things are shaped by the logic of capital reproduction

>second most important
gives away the game, the crude lists of priorities are the whole problem here because it gets you in this idealist mindset of thinking you can rank types of struggle or oppression by some undisclosed means of quantifying them, and then the spot in the ranking becomes implicitly associated with greater virtue. you end up with a valorization of suffering by means of needing to assert the "validity" of particular sufferings, and you gut any strategic analysis of the circumstances in favor of whatever fungible "suffering value" decides the rank of a particular "identity" (taken for granted as comparable in form & content)

Idpol destroyed Occupy Oakland. In "Decolonization is not a metaphor" the bourgie fucks describe how some asshurt injuns came and scolded them about "occupying stolen land" and told them that they should be willing to give literally everything to them, and the movement got split in two.

idpol is bourgeois cancer.

What people do or what they want to be is their own business. Any direct or indirect restriction of the rights of, any establishment of direct or indirect privileges for, citizens on account of their race or nationality, as well as any advocacy of racial or national exclusiveness or hatred and contempt, is punishable by law.Not merely formal equality. In one way or another, by one's attitude or by concessions, it is necessary to compensate the minorities for the lack of trust, for the suspicion and the insults to which the government of the "dominant" nation subjected them in the past.

>>1821919
kys

I can't believe Stalin has gone woke….

can someone explain this to me
if morality doesn't exist whats wrong with being racist?

Make racists scared again

>>1824355
>if morality doesn't exist whats wrong with being racist?
I think it's ultimately disgusting and harmful to everyone including the racists and the end result is a sort of lapse back into barbarism. Racists view other races as being like monkeys but they're also monkeys having a shit-flinging fight. They are our ancestors, after all.

But racism is also an ideology, and the magic of ideology is that your enemies will learn to adapt to yours and flip it around. Remember the critical race theory and how all of a sudden whites are the villains and blacks are innocent and their contemporary misery is and must be due to structural racism so that whites must repay them for what they did to the blacks? Yesterday racism made you rise, today it makes you fall. Now here is another narrative: we are all born to suffer and burn in hell because of the origin sin passed down by Adam and Eve who ate a green apple and pissed off God. Then that became the Catholic Church, and then others who resisted the church adapted and got smarter and flipped the ideology around and said the Catholics no longer followed the Bible. Those people became the Protestants. The USSR rose up with communism as an ideology but Mao and the Chinese believed the USSR was using the ideology to control China, so after Stalin's death they said the USSR had become fake communists and the real orthodox communists were in China.

Here's another example based on some dialectics. A man pisses you off. You want to kill him, but then you control yourself and tell yourself that it's wrong and you'll go to jail. So there are two contradictions opposing each other and each trying to influence your decision. Let's say the good guy on your shoulder wins the struggle so you let the man slide instead of killing him (even if you're still left being kind of angry). This mixed feeling is a synthesis between the two contradictions, so even though one contradiction defeated the other, the "child" produced by the struggle still carries the loser's characteristics (within).

But let's say you then have a few drinks at the bar, and the evil reawakens inside you, so you decide to go get revenge on the man who pissed you off. This is the antithesis to the synthesis. It means the evil inside you has defeated the good guy inside you. The battle is not on the original first level (between the evil and good), but on a new level. This battle is between (a) the evil born from the good which first defeated the evil and (b) the good based on the good which defeated the first evil. So even if the "evil" wins this time, it's not the same evil but a new kind of evil based on the victory of the good. Then you kill the man and are sentenced to death and become remorseful. The good guy wins again (blaming yourself for being stupid), but again, it's not the original good guy, but a new good guy based on the evil that defeats the good that defeats the evil. It's complex.

This is a simple way to understand the unity of opposites in Marxism, showing how a system develops based on its internal contradictions. In the past, racism is awesome. Now, racism is bad but hating robots and UFOs is normal. I can't predict the future but if we do meet aliens, I'm pretty sure humans will become the racist antagonists for future humans.

Last example, in the U.S., the last revolution was the Civil War but that did not wipe out the Confederacy supporters completely. Not only that but the north was nasty to Native Americans and American workers. If you read about the labor movement in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the police worked with the private forces of the capitalists and organized criminals to crack down on workers. A struggle between the "good" north and "evil" south resulted in a synthesis which produced a new "evil." Since then only the civil rights movement is worth mentioning as a negation of the "evil" based on the "good," but that was at best a moderate reform movement, under pressure by the USSR (socialists and communists) to liberate blacks. But over 170 years the U.S. has consistently reaccumulated and reabsorbed backwards elements, the police brutality and racism are just byproducts of that process. The cops may not realize it but their organizational culture came from their predecessors who pursued slaves and killed workers.

If you disagree with this, you can draw a different conclusion from dialectical materialism or deny dialectical materialism and the theory of contradiction.

>>1824486
>I think it's ultimately disgusting and harmful to everyone including the racists and the end result is a sort of lapse back into barbarism. Racists view other races as being like monkeys but they're also monkeys having a shit-flinging fight. They are our ancestors, after all.
ok so? what does you being disgusted at something matter? how is that not just you replacing 'immoral' with a different word?

>>1824527
Believing in racism and race theory is basically the same as believing 2+2=5. It is not true, why you want to believe not only in something obviously false, but something that will made you an enemy of 99% of human population? Nazis only believe in this to justify their hate and violence towards others.
No ""race"" is superior then another, this is an objective scientific truth.
This should be obvius.
NTA

>>1824355
it leads to genocide

>>1824537
believing in race theory and racism are two different things. the question why if morality doesn't exist why is racism 'wrong' not why shouldn't we believe in 'race theory'

>>1824547
sounds wives tale

>>1824555
genocide is extremely rare. too rare for me to be concerned

>>1824645
By being racist you serve to Porky D&C of the proletariat on a silver plate

>>1824648
first they came to "insert X group" and so on…

>>1823063
Lassallean drivel.

>>1824669
not an argument

>>1824665
not really, Porky promotes anti racism

>>1824759
historically, racism, ethnic nationalism and xenophobia are common tactics by the bourgeois to fragment the working class and trump its unified organization
you have progressive bourgeois, yes, but ultimately the bourgeois act out in its own collective class interest, theyre not divided by moral qualms about racism or anti-racism

>>1824759
>ok so? what does you being disgusted at something matter? how is that not just you replacing 'immoral' with a different word?
Because it has nothing to do with morality. It's barbaric, backwards and stupid. It's for people who drink tard juice.

>>1824759
>not really, Porky promotes anti racism
I think it's a good cop / bad cop routine. The liberal progressives and the so-called conservatives are two sides of the same coin, except the former obtains their "religious" experience at a stand-up comedy routine while the latter goes to a church that plays country music. Even their hatred towards each other is similar to medieval religious wars and endless debates about metaphysical nonsense. It's either with-me-or-against-me, black or white, Frankenstein politics. But if you want to be a racist dissident right guy, I don't care, or you can be woke. It's up to you. Make up your own mind.

So here's some idpol, for me, that's annoying, in a review of RuPaul's memoirs in the New York Times Review of Books. The author is offended by RuPaul's description of black people he grew up around who migrated to California from the Deep South as having a slave morality, which RuPaul seems to have despised. RuPaul = Master Morality. Idpol = making excuses for slave morality.

>I wearily recalled an earlier section of the book. Explaining the conservative environment of his childhood in San Diego, RuPaul summarizes the Great Migration in a paragraph that would be considered too concise even for a Wikipedia entry, then declares, “All the Black people in our neighborhood were transplants from the South, and so they had inherited a kind of slave mentality, which was based on fear.”

>Aside from breathtaking dismissiveness of the decades of racial violence that made the migration necessary, it’s chilling to see a public figure known as a champion of the marginalized so easily dismiss survivors of Jim Crow-era terror as people who “hold onto their victim mentality so fiercely; it becomes a defining feature of their identity.”
https://web.archive.org/web/20240307094637/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/books/review/rupaul-the-house-of-hidden-meanings.html

Recognizing that class struggle can vary depending on superstructural factors isn't idpol tho. Anti-idpol here is basically an anti-chvd rule.

See the problem with idpol as commonly understood (and as you explain as the unjust hierarchy placed upon groups by another) is that you’re kind of left with two options if you accept it. If we apply the “typical” Marxist approach to the issue—a revolutionary overthrow of the unjust hierarchy—you’re kind of advocating a race war. If you propose not doing that, like a sane man, then you’re left with a kind of bizarre liberalism where you hope to appeal to the oppressing groups conscience to stop the oppression.

It’s a Caesar or Spartacus dilemma, which I’m increasingly seeing as the dividing line between Fascism and Communism.

>>1824808
maybe but that is just historically, both racism and anti racism can be used to serve porky the modern incarnation of neo liberal economics use anti racism to expand markets and lower wages by demonizing anyone who opposes them driving down wages by importing more workers

>>1824818
who do you think funds rad libs around the world?

>>1824832
>Because it has nothing to do with morality.
<precedes to used moralizing language
do you have no self awareness?

>I think it's a good cop / bad cop routine
so you admit the bourgeois utilize both racism and anti racism

>>1824219
In the past on a different IP I would get into arguments on here over anti-idpol nonsense. It was always either what you are saying here, or someone who is actually pro-idpol but just hates the word.
>>1824282
I will always hate this pic. Bringing up minority issues isn't the problem, its that porky noticed these views were becoming popular and updated to "stay with the times". How is this the fault of those who speak about their issues?

>>1823969
Been laughing at that video for almost a solid hour. Before I watched it - I was an anarchist.
After watching it - I am still an anarchist, but laughing. When will you kill us??? Never!

>>1824970
minority issues is one thing but when minority issues are used by the bourgeois to distract from class consciousness is just bourgeois propaganda

>>1824967
Ever heard of the term "pinkwashing"?

>I'd argue that besides class relations, idpol is the second most important part to any liberation movements in general, communist or not.
The problem is that it's often made the most important part and class struggle and materialist analysis are pushed to the wayside or abandoned entirely. I will agree that these identity-based issues should not be ignored entirely, but they need to be addressed through a class analysis. Being black or a woman does not mean that everything you do is automatically anticapitalist.

>>1821864
The mechanisms of oppression, and the reproduction of identity struggles are all inherently classed-based. Idpol is the removal of the class-struggle component of identity struggles. Leftists that dismiss identity struggles, or have liberal conceptions of identity struggles which are devoid of class, are essentially fucking morons.

>>1824759
Elon Musk retweets /pol/tier garbage.

>>1824759
porkies promote both idpol SJW shit and unironic neonazism, it's just the strategy of divide and control

>>1823101

Phew. I am glad that fascists are only made from black people and transwomen in video games.

>>1825575
You'd be surprised at what triggers an autist. The libs screeching about gamergate electing Trump has some legitimacy to it

>>1825767
good point.