No.1821932
Agreed
No.1821933
>>1821927fraud is basically accepted
No.1821955
>>1821945Bumping to save this historically, culturally, ideologically important thread
No.1821973
>>1821927we are seeing a surge in nationalism in Europe and tbh socialists should use this
the worker's struggle is national struggle at first, you cant care for workers of other countries before you care for your own
the socialist parties of Europe should try to rule the wave of this new nationalism to gain popularity with the workers but few are tryng (I LOVE YOU SAHRA FROM GERMANY GLORY TO THE BSW)
No.1821985
>>1821973Least nazoid germ
No.1821989
Nationalism is only dead among white dead Europeans but thankfully it will soon come back with a vengeance.
Do you really think nationalism is dead among brown people op? Non whites are generally tribalistic and nationalistic to a fault.
No.1821991
>>1821989>putting tribalism togheder with nationalism anon get a lobotomy please
No.1821992
>>1821927nationalism is an extremely powerful force and socialists should never wholly abandon it to reactionaries, it is a tool
all significant socialist advances had a nationalist component
No.1821996
>>1821989>dead among brown peopleLmao it never even began amongst brown people. Nationalistic states like baathism have collapsed in less than a few decades and have very little legitimacy
No.1821998
>>1821996considering youre talking to a retarded fascoid he probably thinks that "refusing to believe whites are better than you" constitutes nationalism
No.1822027
>>1822019nationalism is not necessarily just "GRRR I HATE BROWN PEOPLE" it can simply be a type of patriotism, which may be nostalgic militaristic etc
it had different forms and it's not just "GRRR KILL BROWN PEOPLE" because we're not even close to that
No.1822031
>>1822027But we're not discussing general nationalism but the "nationalism" you're shilling in Germany that is reactionary and hates the migrant worker.
No.1822033
>>1822031Sahra's nationalism is not just
>le migrants are… le bad it's about reconquering what's theirs, Europe's new nationalism is patriotic and nostalgic, they want old Europe back. Sadly they forgot what old Europe was about, old Europe was about class struggle, fighting communist parties strikes etc. we need to get exactly that back, we need to tell them that yes old Europe was socialist too (because partially it was) and tell them that what was once theirs can be given back
No.1822042
>>1822033>it's about reconquering what's theirsThey don't own shit and she is actively going against the migrant worker you nazi shill. Germany has fucked over the working class and they went after communist parties during the West Germany phase. There is nothing to be proud about in Germany's shit history. All they did was fuck over socialists.
No.1822051
>>1822042you have to accept it she's the only possible savior for the german people
No.1822053
it's not an ideology, it's a form of social organization. and I will take that over a cosmopolitan world order that plunders the resources of my nation and leaves my fellow men destitute.
No.1822055
>>1822051She is the same kind of reactionary right-wing politician funded by the rich we've had in Germany since the first world war and it's been shit. Climate Change denial alone fucks over everyone, not just Germans.
No.1822074
>>1822033No reason we cant be nationalist and socialist 😏 lol
No.1822076
>>1821989>(browns) are nationalistic to a fault.Seems strange a fellow fash would have this opinion
No.1822079
>>1822076>(browns) are nationalistic to a fault.its not wrong believe me
No.1822097
>>1821927>Monastic orders and christian theologians have produced way more considerable philosophical works than any modern nationalist thinker can ever dream of. This isn't a good thing for a communist, lmao.
No.1822103
>>1822101And nazis die sooner.
No.1822104
>No you see the leftist position is to support the workers so if you're not currently working you deserve no support. Furthermore any sort support for foreigners is kinda globalist and therefore automatically capitalist in nature. What we need is a local brand of socialism. A a socialist nationalism, if you will. Perhaps we can call it national so
– BSW
No.1822165
>>1822104not a german but from what I've seen they seemed pretty based. I dont get the fetishism with being pro immigration, as long as you dont dehumanize and harass the ones that are here already (dont fall into far right rhetoric basically), it is entirely justified to be anti immigration
I find the position "lets stop bombing their countries, and stop importing workers for our porkies" pretty logical
No.1822265
>>1821927Pure idealism by someone who scores ideologies according to some abstract universal and timeless metric.
National liberation is a progressive stage for a colonized or occupied country. It has historically played the role of resistance to western imperialism and has created the conditions for socialism in many socialist countries.
Even the development of national bourgeoisie improves conditions for socialism because it makes the country economically less vulnerable to external pressure and politically easier to change.
>it is only a modern reskinning of a primitive tribal impulseYou engage in a Peterson-tier mystification yourself here. Instead you should look at material conditions for the emergence of nationalism and at different roles it plays in concrete political situations.
No.1822270
>>1821973Is BSW the modern day national socialist party in Germany?
No.1822275
>>1822265this is very funny from someone whose idea of imperialism solely exists in moral terms lol
>Even the development of national bourgeoisie improves conditions for socialismholy fucking shit lmao you arent a communist
No.1822359
>>1822265we are no longer in the historical period in which nationalism can be related to national liberation or the national bourgeois can undertake progressive tasks
No.1822382
>>1822165Probably because “pro-immigration” is a red herring spewed by open fascists and fascists pretending to be socialists who despise actual communists that show solidarity with the migrant over solidarity with their police-state and national bourgeois
No.1822445
>>1822418>De LeonThis is the first time I've seen a mention of De Leon on this board. Can I get a source on De Leon saying that, or is it another made up quote?
No.1822451
>>1821927It's no surprise nationalism is so promoted, as it's the last defense right now of capitalism. It's more appetising than race and religion.
No.1822479
>>1822451Because open border globalism is so anticapitalist ig 🤣🙃
No.1822530
>>1821927Not distinguishing between "civic" and ethnic/cultural nationalism is a misstep here. Mainstream Scottish nationalism, for example, is comically banal. It's like the Keynesian social democracy of nationalisms.
down to the fact that its dismal failure in the 1970s condemned the entire UK to eternal misery"This region regards itself as a country and could run its own affairs better than people in a different region of a highly centralised and unequal unitary state, if you move to this region then you're part of it too regardless of faith, culture, or ethnicity. Oh, and don't call us a region, we're a country."
No.1822570
>>1822530Nah. What you are describing is the only concrete thing that distinguishes people: language. That is the only thing worth discussing in a material analysis of nations. As languages are developed and forgotten, so are nations.
No.1822580
every nationalist ive met has been a fucking annoying buzzard and deeply reactionary
loser narcissists that need a personal attachment to some abstract area of land to feel better about themselves
idk why any commie would want to work with them in the slightest
No.1822583
If nationalism is so retarded, why is it the most powerful political ideology ever? Nationalism literally caused the Sino-Sovjet-Split.
No.1822595
>>1822570By that standard you'd either have to make all anglos one nation, or distinguish "arbitrary country-independence-ism" from nationalism.
No.1822606
>>1822275Apparently your idea of communism is a list of checkmarks for the end of history, but anything on the road to that is bad. If you think being ruled by foreign capital and foreign institutions is the same starting point as being ruled only by domestic porky then good luck. Except you'd rather not do anything anyway, because it won't be immediate full communism and you're a real communist.
>>1822359>we are no longer in the historical period in which nationalism can be related to national liberationThat's true only for countries where subordination is still accepted as beneficial, but that is changing as America is losing its hegemony.
>or national bourgeois can undertake progressive tasksToday national bourgeoisie can only develop in mostly non-productive sectors, so it doesn't really reduce that economy's dependence. And "multipolarity" won't really change that in the short term. However you still have at least some capital accumulated domestically and the state can push it into investment in more strategic sectors which can be nationalized later.
No.1822607
>>1822265>>1822359Yet people will pretend that nationalism and communism can be reconciled, especially in the so-called 'oppressed countries' (nonsense that does not exist) and use the so-called 'invasion' or 'theft' by foreign capital as something to be remedied by supporting their 'own' capital. Nationalists require some sort of oppression card so they can spin a narrative to support their own side against the evil, bad, demonic colonizer side.
< But to fight imperialism without simultaneously discouraging nationalism means to fight some imperialists and to support others, for nationalism is necessarily imperialist – or illusory. No.1822610
>>1822479open border globalism serves the needs of industrial capitalism but it also creates an international proletariat which is a prerequisite for communism
we dont support every reactionary response to the rise of capitalism because its slightly negative of some effects of capitalism
No.1822613
nationalism is funny because which nation you are in for a lot of people depends on who happened to win a battle hundreds of years ago
No.1822616
>>1822445It's not a fake quote, I've seen it before, but long ago. Also yeah De Leon threads used to be way more common on leftypol but pretty much disappeared after 8chan days.
No.1822634
>>1822606>Apparently your idea of communism is a list of checkmarks for the end of history, but anything on the road to that is bad.do you only have a list of canned responses pulling shit out of your ass lol. if your program is shit then you will never even achieve a revolution let alone a dictatorship of the proletariat much less socialism
good luck with your interclassist liberal bullshit, very communist of you! 👍
No.1822645
Im never going to trust a national socialist no matter how much its shilled.
No.1822650
>>1822606>the proletariat needs to collaborate with their national bourgeoisie to fend off foreign agentsWhat the fuck am I reading. You're much closer to fascists than communists. To insist on supporting the bourgeoisie once capitalism is ripe to be overthrown is class-collaborationist chauvinism and apologia for native 'national' capitalism.
No.1822772
>>1822607If you see it in terms of morals and muh pride instead of strategy then of course you'll see it as "support of 'own' capital" just because it's "our own", which I agree is retarded.
Domestic porky in a periphery country is simply easier to deal with, he can squeal but can't even run (let alone fight back) because he can't compete on the same terms and is dependent on the state. Just look at China. They couldn't do the same kind of coordination and planning if the economy was completely dependent on foreign capital.
>>1822634>you're liberal>>1822650>you're fascistDo you not understand the terms or something? All of this board likes to engage in "critical support" even when it's just aesthetics, then your head explodes when someone mentions "national bourgeoisie" lol. The idea that it can be a progressive force is nothing new in Marxism.
Here's that liberal fascist Mao:
>The national bourgeoisie at the present stage is of great importance. Imperialism, a most ferocious enemy, is still standing alongside us. China's modern industry still forms a very small proportion of the national economy. No reliable statistics are available, but it is estimated, on the basis of certain data, that before the War of Resistance Against Japan the value of output of modern industry constituted only about 10 per cent of the total value of output of the national economy. To counter imperialist oppression and to raise her backward economy to a higher level, China must utilize all the factors of urban and rural capitalism that are beneficial and not harmful to the national economy and the people's livelihood; and we must unite with the national bourgeoisie in common struggle. Our present policy is to regulate capitalism, not to destroy it. But the national bourgeoisie cannot be the leader of the revolution, nor should it have the chief role in state power. The reason it cannot be the leader of the revolution and should not have the chief role in state power is that the social and economic position of the national bourgeoisie determines its weakness; it lacks foresight and sufficient courage and many of its members are afraid of the masses.https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-4/mswv4_65.htm No.1822787
>>1822650have you really never encountered this idea before? it was standard practice in every 20th century revolution, and even when avoiding it was attempted the necessity asserted itself. you cant just switch overnight from social reproduction via mechanisms of capital reproduction to full planned economy, there is not the infrastructure, manpower, technical expertise, or knowledge to even attempt it
No.1822795
>>1822784
what are you even doing on this board you fascist retard
No.1822810
>>1822787By the end of this decade the only think that will separate our local MLs from natsocs on /pol/ will be aesthetics
No.1822813
>>1822798
Kung pow penis
No.1822835
>>1822810are you suggesting that strategic alliance with national bourgeoisie is somehow necessarily fascist? were not talking about glorifying the nation, "national" bourgeosie literally only refers to the bourgeoisie with their investments centered within the country, you could swap out national with "domestic" and it would mean the same thing. yes in most circumstances historically it has led to backpedaling and an opportunistic rather than strategic alliance between the bureaucracy of the revolutionary party and the bourgeoisie, thats a problem to be overcome. but what are you actually suggesting as an alternative? immediate communization? how will things circulate without causing famine and mass shortages when you declare everything communal without infrastructure in place for planning and logistics?
No.1822848
>>1822787>you cant just switch overnight from social reproduction via mechanisms of capital reproduction to full planned economyWhy do you brainlets think communism is fucking planned economy?
No.1822853
>>1822835>immediate communizationWhy is this the only strawman you faggots have? We already have the example of the USSR and the wave of revolutions in the early 20th century, but no, communists want "full communism in under a day", duh!
No.1822860
>>1822835Yes, allying with your local merchants against foreign proletariats is in fact a precursor to becoming a fascist you spineless fucking coward
No.1822892
>>1822860>>1822848all economies are planned but yes communism in the simplest sense is an economy planned based on production for need instead of profit, unless something changed when i wasnt looking
>>1822853>>1822853huh? i am talking about short term (a couple decades at most) allowances for domestic capital to operate UNDER the control of a communist party WHILE the means for effectively nationalizing/socializing the economy is worked out. im not a muh productive forces guy, i think the USSR proves that industrialization is not only possible under communist party planning but that it can be done very effectively. but the USSR still has to rely on foreign capitals investments and technical expertise to get industrialization started and to train technicians and planners, because they were working with countries with very small capitalist classes prior to the revolution. in the case that an established capitalist class does exist, a temporary alliance with them during the period of transition is BETTER than needing to rely on indebting yourself to international capitalists. i have already acknowledged that this transition period being drawn out far too long by stalling momentum and/or bureaucratic opportunists in the party has been a serious problem historically and is a challenge that would need to be addressed in a future revolutionary capture of a state
No.1822936
>>1822772Perhaps the leftcom critique of Maoism as petit-bourgeois might have a point.
No.1822995
>>1822772yeah but again it can no longer be a progressive force. also i think we should reconsider what colonialism or semi-colonialism entails and who is responsible for the particular traits and development of capitalism within nation-states
even during the historical period where it made sense, most accurate proposals for a united front claimed that the national bourgeois fight solely for their class interests and use the working class as cannon fodder, so independent policy and strategies important
also
>quoting the forefathers to cookie-cut days gone tactics to the present day No.1823298
>>1822772>>1822892These things are overcome precisely by uniting on the basis of class, putting aside all other differences and overthrowing bourgeois relations, which constitute the material basis for all of these externalities you mention.
Communism does away with all property, and consequently all the divisions of class, gender, nation and race. The means of production will be operated according to a common plan to satisfy the needs of all humanity. You would have the victorious proletariat divide itself up into new independent and sovereign states. Even if all property within them was owned communally, this is still private property, a relation of exclusion against the rest of the world.
>inb4 communism is impossible, and thus we need petty nation states for my favorite nationality/race>>1822936It's not 'leftcom' (not a thing for almost a century), it's marxist.
No.1823365
>>1823298i am not disagreeing with you in principle but i am very confused with what youre vision of revolution is, it sounds incredibly millenarian. do you really think there would be no necessary transition period? no pragmatic compromises? like being incredibly generous and unrealistic, lets say 30% of a countrys proletariat are politically educated communists unified in a strong and disciplined communist party that takes power in a quick, decisive revolution. even if this fantastically unrealistically optimistic scenario, how are they going to immediately turn over all production to communal management based on need? all the redundant land and industry currently working towards redundant and/or nonessential production, all the supply chains dependent on integration into global markets, all the technicians and bureaucrats that currently operate these industries, how do you immediately turn that over to council management and communal production?
No.1823373
>>1823365Utter silence because ultras refuse to live in reality and prefer their bubble of insular self righteousness.
No.1823375
>>1823373can we stop strawmanning everyone who criticises china/ussr for not actually being communist as 'ultras'? thanks
No.1823459
>>1823375revisionists do be like that
>>1823365>no necessary transition period? no pragmatic compromises? what does this have to do with seeing nation states as irrelevant for socialism? in fact, playing the internationalist card in cultural hotspots (like, for example, some american countries during the 18th century) could be a more pragmatic choice
besides, your class alliance with national bourgeois isnt necessarily accurate for managing production since global south countries have very inefficient, noncompetitive national bourgeois, and it implies a dangerous equality of conditions instead of a dictatorship in which the national bourgeois interests are subordinated to the proletariat
No.1823460
>>1823375Critics of AES are not merely ultras, they are traitors and should be shot.
No.1823463
>>1823460what a retard, this type of gaylord holier-than-thou thinking usually ends up selling the revolution and turning against the working class, as what happened with the soviet (now just russian) bureaucracy
personally, i critically support aes. perfection doesnt exist, and socialism requires experimentation. but we no longer have socialism in this world. capitalism is already restored worldwide after the fall of the berlin wall
No.1823464
>>1823459>what does this have to do with seeing nation states as irrelevant for socialism?i am not advocating for nation states or some valorization of nations at all, i already clarified that national bourgeoisie can just as easily be called domestic bourgeoisie, i.e. the bourgeois within the borders of the revolutionary state after capturing state power
No.1823468
>>1823463the pit has plenty of space for traitors
No.1823472
>>1823468like nikita khruschev or like jian qing? be specific
No.1823618
>>1822848Neoliberalism broke some communists brains and now they think 19th century capitalism is revolutionary.
No.1823807
>>1823802If spiders were capable of industrialisation, it would indeed be a waste of time for them to make webs instead of factory-farming bugs to eat.
No.1823849
>>1823807>creature the same size or bigger than your own body runs into your trap with almost 0 effort by your part>bite it and wrap it up in web>you now have preserved food for probably weeksactually seems more efficient when you think about it
No.1823866
>>1823849in spider society this would translate to every spider spending much more time on food preservation (and if they make webs, effectively agriculture) than humans do.
look at america today: nearly nobody farms, but nearly everybody eats. the human version of such a spider-society was already vanishing more than 100 years ago.
of course, if you factor in environmental degredation, etc, to balance out increased living standards (in commodity terms anyway), the spider's efficiency might start to climb again, but that's another story. No.1823868
>>1823866Okay let's get back on track here, the point is hypothetically 99% of living things on earth would probably degrade if not outright die if you somehow managed to remove their instincts out of their dna and brains with a push of a button. I say this in response to op saying instincts are worthless and primitive. I'm saying theyre useful and if instincts are indeed valid then that means tribalism is valid, if tribalism is valid then nationalism is valid by the next logical extension.
No.1823869
>>1823868>, if tribalism is valid then nationalism is valid by the next logical extension."valid" doesn't really mean anything, but if it's to be read as any kind of approval then this doesn't really follow. tribalism is really just group instinct (and group instinct really is fundamental in humans!), but that doesn't mean all groups are valid: cults, for example, prey on people by exploiting these instincts to exploit vulnerable people. similarly, our taste for sugar is innate but that doesn't make drinking 10 cokes a day any less insane. that our instincts are correct in aggregate doesn't mean you shouldn't countermand them when they're demonstrably harmful.
No.1823951
Which side are you on?
Red:
Lenin: No one unobsessed by nationalist prejudices can fail to perceive that this process of assimilation of nations by capitalism means the greatest historical progress, the breakdown of hidebound national conservatism in the various backwoods, especially in backward countries like Russia…. But Marxists do not confine themselves to the bourgeois-national standpoint. For several decades a well-defined process of accelerated economic development has been going on in the South, i. e., the Ukraine, attracting hundreds of thousands of peasants and workers from Great Russia to the capitalist farms, mines, and cities. The "assimilation"-within these limits of the Great-Russian and Ukrainian proletariat is an indisputable fact. And this fact is undoubtedly progressive. Capitalism is replacing the ignorant, conservative, settled muzhik of the Great-Russian or Ukrainian backwoods with a mobile proletarian whose conditions of life break down specifically national narrow-mindedness, both Great-Russian and Ukrainian. Even if we assume that, in time, there will be a state frontier between Great Russia and the Ukraine, the historically progressive nature of the "assimilation" of the Great-Russian and Ukrainian workers will be as undoubted as the progressive nature of the grinding down of nations in America.
Marx: The working men have no country. We cannot take from them what they have not got. Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.
National differences and antagonism between peoples are daily more and more vanishing, owing to the development of the bourgeoisie, to freedom of commerce, to the world market, to uniformity in the mode of production and in the conditions of life corresponding thereto.
The supremacy of the proletariat will cause them to vanish still faster. United action, of the leading civilised countries at least, is one of the first conditions for the emancipation of the proletariat. In proportion as the exploitation of one individual by another will also be put an end to, the exploitation of one nation by another will also be put an end to. In proportion as the antagonism between classes within the nation vanishes, the hostility of one nation to another will come to an end.
Blue:
Lenin: Is a sense of national pride alien to us, Great-Russian class-conscious proletarians? Certainly not! We love our language and our country, and we are doing our very utmost to raise her toiling masses (i.e., nine-tenths of her population) to the level of a democratic and socialist consciousness. To us it is most painful to see and feel the outrages, the oppression and the humiliation our fair country suffers at the hands of the tsar's butchers, the from the Great Russians; in that midst having produced Radishchev, the Decembrists and the revolutionary commoners of the seventies; in the Great-Russian working class having created, in 1905, the Great-Russian peasantry having begun to turn towards democracy and set about overthrowing the nobles and the capitalists. We take pride in the resistance to these outrages put up from our midst, a mighty revolutionary party of the masses; and in clergy and the landed proprietors.
Marx: Thus I hold the view that there are two nations in Europe which do not only have the right but the duty to be nationalistic before they become internationalists: the Irish and the Poles. They are internationalists of the best kind if they are very nationalistic. The Poles have understood this in all crises and have proved it on the battlefields of all revolutions. Take away their expectation to re-establish Poland; or persuade them that the new Poland will soon fall into their laps by itself, and they are finished with their interest in the European Revolution.
We, in particular, have no reason whatever to block their irrefutable striving for independence. In the first place, they have invented and applied in 1863 the method of fighting which the Russians are now imitating with such great success and secondly they were the only reliable and capable lieutenants in the Paris Commune.
No.1823952
>>1822086NDSAP popularity peaked at the elections of 1933, and went downhills from there
>>1822082> when you have bread and water Lol, if only. They already had protests for over food prices in 1936
https://www.nytimes.com/1936/01/01/archives/germany-punishes-rise-in-the-prices-of-meats.html No.1823960
>>1823375No, for they have no other arguments
No.1823962
>>1823463> i critically support aesHonestly, I never saw anyone "critically supporting aes" being critical of them
No.1823983
>>1821973>the worker's struggle is national struggle at first[muffled Internationale in the distance]
No.1823992
>>1823983it's a nice song it's sad it dosent take into consideration the reality we live in
No.1823995
>>1821927>I support clericalism over nationalismThat's an L in my book.
<Nationalism needs to mold a quasi mythological pastSo does clericalism.
At least nationalism has civics 101 and political salience.
<Monastic orders and christian theologians have produced way moreYou probably just aren't well read, let alone a politicsfag.
>Ethnicities are proven to evolve consistently depending on material and historic circumstancesAnd? nobody denies that.
>that it is only a modern reskinning of a primitive tribal impulseThere is more to nationalism than race.
No.1824009
>>1824007
unironically yeah
No.1824010
>>1821927>Monastic orders and christian theologians have produced way more considerable philosophical works than any modern nationalist thinker can ever dream of. This. Historically speaking, religious orders arose as a popular reaction to the brutality of the state and dispossession. They were experiments in democratic and/or communal means of organization with spiritual or philosophical answers to the misery caused by war, imperial expansion and poverty.
No.1824014
I'm certain OP and anons here would rather live in the West than Saudi Arabia or Iran (where clericalism does override nationalism).
Case closed. *mic drop*
No.1824015
If you retards think nationalism is dead, you should try interacting with some people from, for example, India or Pakistan.
No.1824017
>>1824014actually this is not true, you're comparing a theocratic republic to an absolute monarchy
the saudis do use religion to legitimize their rule however in Iran there are democratic and religious institutions who really have power
i'd really prefer Iran to Saudi arabia
No.1824018
>>1824015cant, they smell funny
No.1824023
>>1821927>Nationalism is a retarded ideology that has fortunately died and now resides in the dust bin of history.Nation-states is literally the status quo to this day. Idk what or how you see the modern world today, but it literally is just that. It is fucking enshrined in the UN charter.
Nationalism, when it first began, had the noble idea of giving nations the right of self-determination. However, Western colonial powers obviously believed in it as much as they believe in human rights today: conditionally.
Poland was "granted" that right because Germany lost WW1.
The Irish and Scots? Fuck them.
Colonies? Screwed over even more with arbitrary borders.
Aboriginals? Native Americans? Amazonians? Fucked over, and given rights "equal" to the colonizer's after centuries of struggle rather than land they can create their own state from.
Many such examples.
Your view of nationalism is literally just "muh racist hillbilly" which is ignorant at best.
No.1824031
>>1824017>you're comparing a theocratic republic to an absolute monarchyA theocracy lead by a clerical cabal isn't really that much more progressive than a kingdom.
No.1824034
>>1824031they actually have representative democratic institutions, they are extremely flawed and limited but it's still much much better
No.1824057
>>1824034The comparison was with the West, not between Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Republic of Iran.
No.1824067
>>1824057i'd definitely prefer a theocratic republica to a nationalist european dictatorship (aka Franco ᴉuᴉlossnW etc) as they are much more similiar to Saudi Arabia than Iran
No.1824073
>>1824067That only tells me you prefer theocracy to totalitarianism.
The real question was whether you'd rather lead in civic nationalist states in the contemporary West or Iran.
No.1824075
>>1824073ᴉuᴉlossnW's Italy was civic nationalist until 1938 when they applied Hitler racial laws
No.1824076
>>1824075In the contemporary West*
No.1824080
>>1824076it's not a matter of nationalism then though
we had clericalism civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism but all of these didnt imply certain civil rights
example is Sweden, Sweden had for the longest time a very ethno nationalist government and yet the people in Sweden enjoyed a lot of liberties
civic nationalism, ethnic nationalism and clericalism dont imply the liberties we have in the west now
if we dont have any clerical states right now in the west is because religion is dead asf
No.1824081
>>1824080>civic nationalism, ethnic nationalism and clericalism dont imply the liberties we have in the west now yes, they do, liberalism and secular values definitely implies the liberties you see in the West.
No.1824082
>>1824081i literally just states an example where ethno nationalism didnt imply the absence of civic liberties you idot
No.1824098
>>1824014Those two are nationalists entities
No.1824119
>>1824098>Saudi Arabia>Iran Not really.
No.1824131
Saudi Arabia is a family-run business.
Iran doesn't like secular nationalist ideology.
They might have the powers entitled to them like your typical nation-state, but the alternative is simply micro-nationalism all the same.
No.1824157
>>1824156
IM NOT FUCKING QUEER THIS SHITFUCKING WEBSITE HAS THE NAZBOL FLAG COVERED IIN TRANS IT'S NOT MY FAULT
No.1824161
>>1824160
least bloodthirsty zigger
also i dont get the hate for nazbols, syncretism is the way or socialism will die in this generation
No.1824167
>>1824119Maybe Saudi Arabia isn't. But Iran is basically 60s Fracoist Spain
No.1824169
>>1824160>>1824161Retard on retard communication
No.1824179
>>1824167this uygha is so retarded…
he got fed the west's lies and he believes them!!
No.1824183
>>1824014citizen of saudi arabia get paid from oil rent, and have good free healthcare and social service
so sure, Im not on board with the whole theocratic thing, theres very limited political freedom, I find the treatment of women awful etc, but still your life would be a lot more comfortable as a saudi citizen than a minimum wage prole in the west
Iran also have a lot of nationalism afaik, its just mixed with clericalism, one does not necessarily prevent the other
Nationalism is the basis for all the social structure, and any relevant socialist movement has used it and will use it as a basis. Internationalism doesnt mean no nations.
Which doesnt mean you shouldnt fight stupid chauvinism and reactionaries defending their porkies on a national basis.
No.1824193
>>1824183>Nationalism is the basis for all the social structureGee, so social structure didn't exist before the 18th century?
No.1824238
>>1824232this is actually hilarious
No.1824291
>>1823868>if instincts are indeed valid then that means tribalism is valid, if tribalism is valid then nationalism is valid by the next logical extension.lmao this is some funny kind of logic. can you define tribalism and demonstrate how it is instinctual? you might be able to do that to so.e satisfactory degree but you take it as self evident, and it isnt. but when you make the jump from tribalism to nationalism, you are going to need to do some serious mental acrobatics to justify that outside it being "common sense"
No.1824296
>>1824291also we go against our instincts and 'nature' all the time, by taking meds or not shitting on the street. it's not an argument for anything
No.1824356
>>1822613>Saudi ArabiaIs what if Ancap really got state.
No.1824601
>>1821973You are genuinely retarded if you think nationalism is not always inhrrently a bourgeois movement where the proletatiat has nothing to gain, even in the imperial periphery and beyond. We are not in the early 20th century anymore, capital has penetrated every last corner of this world and, giving the success of the revolution in shitholes like Imperial Russia, the material conditions are certainly overripe everywhere.
No.1824615
>>1824612he was awful but he wasnt stupid
No.1824620
>>1824615nationalism in the imperial core is chauvinist and reactionary and serves the bourgeoisie. and because you don't hold power, you aren't going to be able to use nationalism to trick the reactionaries the way nationalists are able to use socialism to trick the workers.
No.1824621
>>1824601nationalism tends to unite to bond people who dont get to know each other, it's a "over tribe" feeling of belonging. this is something the socialist state should nurture, i agree that ethno nationalism and civic nationalism are discriminatory in nature but discriminating those same globalists and capitalist outside the obvious need for workers unification will help us
No.1824623
>>1824620why not? Stalin did it awfully well, his great patriotic war become not class war but a fight between two nations
No.1824629
>>1824621maybe it's because I live in a global empire settler state, but I have never once felt a sense of "belonging" to the burger reich, and nobody has ever appealed to me politically by waving a flag and assuming I'm a dumb nationalist rube appealing to my sense of nonexistent nationalism
No.1824630
>>1824627the european nations are oppressed by un-national globalists who dont belong to any country
but i get it now i get it, onlyu non-imperial core nations can have nationalism uh, because it's a "feels good thing" yeee throw back the colonizer nshiet!! but when the european does it it's bad and uncool :(
No.1824633
>>1824629clearly low autism score specimen
No.1824683
>>1824679
i will bow to the amerimutt
the greatest creature the God has ever created
50 percent jewish, 50 percent mexican
100 percent thinking about BBC
No.1824685
Depends on the type of nationalism. One can argue it’s proven itself to be capable of organizing people collectively in circumstances where class has failed. Granted I’m sure I’ll get some flak for this. Sure ethno nationalism is an inherently flawed project and likely doomed, but generic nationalism has shown itself to be robust and, at times, coherent.
No.1824691
>>1824157And yet you feel the need to cling to that flag. Curious
No.1824710
>>1824697Could transition have saved Limonov?
No.1824713
>>1824710im not a transhumanist or a queer :(
No.1824716
>>1824713you sure do seem like one
No.1824918
Yeh it's funny how nationalism tends to end with the nation in question reduced to ruins. But nationalism is just a component of liberalism and inherits all of its contradictions, so it is to be expected.
No.1825000
>>1824713then why flag yourself as one
No.1825001
>>1824630yes. it's based when oppressors rise up. it's cringe when oppressors keep oppressing. at last you truly see.
No.1825183
>>1825001that's exactly my point!!! just what i wanted to say!!!! you're so right!!!!!
No.1829882
>>1821927No this isnt right, the national principle is a necessity for any successful Marxist-Leninist politics in the first world, also beyond any purely tactical considerations national culture and language are immensely important. If we dont use it then we surrender it to the enemy allowing them the full power of its use, nationalism is used by liberals and rightists not because its inherently 'reactionary' but because its one of the only things that they can use to get people to support liberal-capitalism (almost nobody is going to pick up to gun to fight for 'open global markets' or 'pluralist multiparty elections' etc). Also immigration is not internationalism.
>We will have to develop the idea of combining a healthy, properly understood nationalism with proletarian internationalism. Proletarian internationalism should be grounded in such a nationalism in the individual countries. Stalin made it clear that between nationalism properly understood and proletarian internationalism there can be no contradictions. Rootless cosmopolitanism that denies national feelings and the notion of a homeland has nothing in common with proletarians internationalism.- Georgi Dimitrov (leader of the Communist International)
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