No.1541237
>>1541067People who "hate their boss" should not confuse their instincts; chances are good that they aren't "communists" but anarchists. Likely the statist indoctrination has been already broken (instead of being reinforced) by authoritarian teachers - true representatives of a monopolistic, statist leviathan. From that point on they recognize psychos before they even open their mouths and there is a particular concentration of them in any positions of power.
But do not throw the baby out with a bathwater. A natural, soft leadership is the foundation of our specie. Try to recollect _some_ teachers which you wouldn't mind to follow. Or a friend which more often than not ended up in front - and not alongside - you. A voluntary compliance on case by case basis doesn't detract from you; it can benefit you.
Test your potential future boss during a job interview; one of its roles is just finding out how you fit together as people. If your red light flashes leave the place immediately. Don't waste your efforts fighting straw men. Focus on destroying the true enemy.
No.1541449
>
No.1541456
>>1541067hits bongbro the state sucks
exhales No.1541462
>>1541456Better than nothing.
No.1541472
>>1541067Posting in a goated thread
No.1541492
>>1541478
Best Korea, Laos, Vietnam, Cuba and most importantly of all Chyna.
No.1541501
>>1541436He didn't refute shit, lol. He just got buttmad and may a fuckton of strawman arguments.
https://anarchism.pageabode.com/book/h-4-didnt-engels-refute-anarchism-in-on-authority/ No.1541527
To call anarchism as "fantastical" is the most annoying straw-man ever.
No.1541529
>>1541501I was holding off posting the original text to be polite
But since we're here now
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm No.1541536
Athens, Greece: Responsibility claim for the grenade attack upon a vehicle of a prison officer in Haidari by ‘Conspiracy Vengeance’<The group “Conspiracy Vengeance” claimed responsibility for a grenade attack upon a prison officer’s car in Haidari at dawn last Saturday https://darknights.noblogs.org/post/2023/07/15/athens-greece-responsibility-claim-for-the-grenade-attack-upon-a-vehicle-of-a-prison-officer-in-haidari-by-conspiracy-vengeance/Identity of ‘anarchist Madonna’ revealed 87 years later<The identity of the young militia woman on a barricade in Barcelona had been a mystery until an exhibition in Montpellier of long-lost works by its author, Antoni Campañàhttps://english.elpais.com/international/2023-06-28/ana-garbin-alonso-identity-of-anarchist-madonna-revealed-87-years-after-iconic-spanish-civil-war-photo.htmlAnarchist comrade Gabriel Pombo da Silva, on the street!We are happy to know and report that the anarchist comrade Gabriel Pombo da Silva was released from prison .
The struggle continues!
https://anarchistnews.org/content/anarchist-comrade-gabriel-pomdo-da-silva-street No.1541552
>>1541529How does it feel to be a weak, spineless person at your core that needs a Fuhrer to be your father and tell you what to do?
>>1541067>Thread for anarchists<MLs already trying to swarm it since their ideology can’t actually survive leftist critique without silencing the critics No.1541564
>>1541552<MLs already trying to swarm it since their ideology can’t actually survive leftist critique without silencing the criticsOkay? A few autistics have been doing this for as long as any inception of this thread exists.
It is sad they have nothing better to do or talk about and have nothing but petty squabbles and resentment politics to fill their warped ideas of praxis but it is sadder still that you feel an impulse to reply to them.
Just report it anon, we all know they will simply get deleted and you are in a sense worse them them in not doing so.
No.1541567
>>1541564Why would I think they would be deleted tho?
The mods of the site are ML
No.1541570
>>1541567Because a bunch already have been.
A cursory scroll through the very short thread shows this.
Please bring more than simply whining about ML's whining. At the end of the day it is all just whining.
No.1541573
>>1541570This guy basically has a meltdown every time he's here
One would think people would move on or something at some point but no
No.1541592
>>1541552>posting a link to a text being critiqued is silencing critics in the anarchists mindNoted.
No.1541600
>>1541552>leftist critique"Your system failed after 75 years of funding decolonisation and liberation because of the state" is not a critique.
No.1541613
>>1541067Bahkunin was anti semitic. That's idpol so such discussion is banned here utterly. Stop posting about anarchists.
No.1541625
>>1541613>Dear Engels,>From the enclosed scrawls you will partly see how bothered I am. So far, the landlord has allowed himself to be placated; he has yet to receive £25. The piano chap, who is being paid in instalments for the piano, should already have had £6 at the end of June, and is a most ill-mannered brute. I have rate demands in the house amounting to £6. The wretched school fees — some £10 — I have fortunately been able to pay, for I do my utmost to spare the children direct humiliation. I have paid the butcher $6 on account (the sum total of my quarterly takings from the Presse!), but I’m again being dunned by that fellow, not to mention the baker, the teagrocer, the greengrocer, and such other sons of Belial as there may be.>The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation. The chap would sooner throw money down the drain than lend it to a ‘friend’, even though his interest and capital were guaranteed. In this he bases himself on the view that he ought to live the life of a Jewish baron, or Jew created a baron (no doubt by the countess). Just imagine! This fellow, knowing about the American affair, etc., and hence about the state of crisis I’m in, had the insolence to ask me whether I would be willing to hand over one of my daughters to la Hatzfeldt as a ‘companion’, and whether he himself should secure Gerstenberg’s (!) patronage for me! The fellow has wasted my time and, what is more, the dolt opined that, since I was not engaged upon any ‘business’ just now, but merely upon a ‘theoretical work’, I might just as well kill time with him! In order to keep up certain dehors vis-à-vis the fellow, my wife had to put in pawn everything that wasn’t actually nailed or bolted down! No.1541631
>>1541625Marx was always very crass and frank in his letters. Just read his letter to Engels after Mary Burns died
No.1541636
>>1541625Marx the Moor had the excuse that Lassalle was the jewish nigger who'd just suggested he pimp out his daughter.
What's bakunin's excuse?
No.1541645
>>1541631>>1541636The difference is that Marxists unironically feel the need to defend Marx's racism while anarchists aren't in a cult
No.1541646
>>1541645You could have just said Bakunin has no excuse.
Less typing.
No.1541647
>>1541646I never implied he did
The only one that thinks racism and antisemitism are excusable is you
No.1541648
>>1541647Why yes I do think people are human have failings and have reasons for them.
No wonder you're an anarchist
Have you ever gotten anything done in your life?
No.1541650
>>1541552>muh fuhrerprinzipeven the CIA admitted that the USSR was run collectively and Stalin or Lenin were figureheads
on the other hand there hasn't been a single anarchist experiment that didn't have some state apparatus which it sought to abolish
No.1541651
>>1541648You literally adhere to one of the most fringe ideologies possible in your society, I don't think you have room to point fingers, LARPer
And remember, only one of us unironically thinks racism and antisemitism are justifiable
It's actually people like you that create anarchists
No.1541653
>>1541651>no I have never gotten anything done in my lifeThank you for the honest response.
Now why do you think you're in a position to lecture given that you're useless and unable to get anything done?
No.1541654
>>1541653What the fuck have you accomplished in life or anyone else?
Am I supposed to say having a job? That isn't an accomplishment. Organizing with some radical party? That's also a non-achievement. Being wealthy or prominent? Why the fuck would I be here if I was?
The fuck have you accomplished, getting positive replies from other internet stalinists?
No.1541655
>>1541654You're still dodging the question.
I didn't say
accomplishments I said getting something done.
Let's start simple.
Have you ever dug a ditch?
No.1541657
>>1541654>stalinistnot a real thing
please use the term 'marxist-leninist'
No.1541662
A few words from companion Gabriel Pombo Da Silva, after his releaseDear companions: as incredible as it may seem, I have not yet had the desire, nor the possibility, nor the desire to sit down in front of a machine to announce (again) my (new) release from prison in this frenetic world… anyway, I want to share these few words.
Anyway, in the end the truth prevailed and their gray officials had to admit that they kept me KEEPED FOR many more years than normally established by their laws and rights. “democratic”.
Since for those who "overcome rather than convince" life and death are bureaucratic processes, when the order to release me reached the last rung, they suddenly placed me outside the door of one of their prisons, just like that. They didn't even bother to notify my lawyers, my companions and my family and I had to endure for 40 endless minutes, standing there like a fool, before a prisoner gave me a call. .
Well, I didn't expect the death buddies to apologize, but also not that they were so despicable… the fact is that in the last few months I've lost 15 kilos of muscle mass, I'll spare you the grim details of this latest attack, which took more than three and a half years to solve.
My daughter and my companion have, without doubt, borne the heaviest weight of this pathetic revenge; now these weeks of reunion and recovery are for them. My revolutionary love goes out to all of you, internationalist and solidarity brothers and companions.
Shortly, we will begin to build and (re-)build our projects and our organizational bases, to continue our struggle and our commitment for all freedoms. In my heart and in my mind will always remain those who died in action and those who continue to rot in prison for their ideas and their militant and revolutionary commitments.
We will continue the struggle again and again, on all fronts, against the state, capital and their mercenaries.
For anarchy and the end of domination!
Gabriel
>>1541592>>posting a link to a text being critiqued is silencing critics in the anarchists mindLet's be real anon, you are posting like this because you want to start fights with anarchists and make them justify themselves.
It is not only an a derailing tactic but a tired one. The fact that you people feel so threatened by anarchists talking about anarchist things that you have to do this and would rather have an worse website as a result says more about you as individuals than it does about anarchism.
Mission success though, i guess. faggot.
No.1541670
>>1541662As someone that cancerously derailed this thread, let me get it back on track, how do you feel about this series on anthropology made by an anarchist?
He actually does a pretty vicious critique of Graeber and Wengrow too by pointing out the flaws in their attempts to basically try dismantling materialism
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLU4FEuj4v9eARY5j9ooBMPNoct4NVtvUJ No.1541674
>>1541670Not that anon, but from skipping through it that it is definitely an interesting
I will most certainly be coming back to it in order to listen to it in full later
No.1541698
Not an anarchist but support reviving these threads, will try to contribute later maybe effortpost over the weekend. Does anybody have that old screencap of the authoritarian vs. libertarian false dichotomy with the hank hill vietcong pic? Thats my old post and I still stand by it in essence even if I dont remember the exact details
No.1541726
Anons post me your favorite anarchist webm/mp4's.
First: Home made stingers left outside an police station by anarchists in the UK. With hillarious results.
Second: Antifa boys and grrrls run an operation on a fascists apartment. in which they use more than a few very interesting tactics, Germany.
Third: Police training center burned down by anarchists in Ukraine. Only end. I have lost the full extended video of the setting up of the arson.
Last: Penultimate scene of British BBC version of the very famous play 'Accidental Death of an Anarchist' by Dario Fo
>>1541670Thanks anon. Replying so i remember to watch this tonight.
>>1541698>Not an anarchist but support reviving these threadsI think i regret it already. I was laboring under the false hope that people here had matured somewhat purely through time and literally growing older. gadly i seem wrong.
No.1541735
>>1541726>I was laboring under the false hope that people here had matured somewhat purely through time and literally growing older.for better and worse most of the people who did that left
No.1541804
>>1541670This series starts at episode 6 anon, do you have a link from episode 1 or is it better to start here specifically for what is relevant? Thanks.
No.1541810
>>1541804It’s just his 6th Youtube Episode, not episode 6 of a series per se
No.1541815
>>1541810Cool thanks anon, I just started it, he is talking about immediate return hunter-gatherers and explaining how band societies socialy form themselves the same way one would explain the concept of affinity groups, which is quite interesting.
His voice is listenable too so I will probably listen to all of this, thank you anon.
No.1541836
>>1541067>solidarity banner i helped paint a decade ago shows up in OP image on /leftypol/ of all placessmall world!
No.1542031
>>1541836that's a win comrade! :)
No.1542379
>>1541552Why do Anarchists even deal with Marxist dominated spaces anymore? All Marxists are good for is crushing real revolutionary movements and then acting impossibly smug after they crush said movements.
Marxism is as distant an ideology to Anarchism as Neo-Liberals are, they shouldn't share board thats for sure. When is an Anarchist only site gonna pop up so I can stop listening to Marxists try to justify their shitty ideology in a million convoluted explanations, denials, and revisionist variations.
No.1542384
>>1541650>even the CIA admitted…why do crackheads consistently resort to citing the CIA to collaborate their stupid bullshit?
Incomplete list of those who regularly cite the CIA as a source
- Marxists
- 9/11 Denialists
- Shifters (people who think they can go to other dimensions through their dreams)
- UFOlogists
- Hollow Earthers
No.1542484
You know what, maybe we're being just a little too harsh on anarchists. Why dont we be fair to them instead and list our favorite anarchist accomplishments? I'll go first:
No.1542518
>>1541625Marx was a sephardic jew. That amounts to both UYGHUR word & russian saboteur word ownership with no interests attached. & as any true commie hungry Santa he would surely lend them passes to us for free.
Fuck's your problem?
Also, lend me yo daughter bro, I wanna some company too.
>>1541657>but call him a stalinist & see how he recoils, how injured he is! ‒ "I've been found out!" No.1542525
>>1542384>MarxistsKeep your friends close & enemies closer
>9/11 DenialistsObjective truth. The 9/11 is literally a reichstag burning part 2, brought to you by a collaboration of the military & the central buerau of CIA (they even bombed their other vigilantisch buerau near the twink towels but you won't find about it would you)
>Shifters (people who think they can go to other dimensions through their dreams)Implying your dimension isn't the same "dream" but with more hardcoded info goin in
>UFOlogistsA US Navy project of drones which carry fucktons, fucktons of drugs on the board.
The drones are carried by nuclear subs.
The CIA drug war crusades & lots of massive scale drug poisoning live experiments on whole cities were done as a part of this project too.
The drug clouds cannot be defended against in any way possible (even bunker systems are helpless, it seems) & don't actually kill people but leave them in a zombie-like state, with permanent & irreversible damage to the nervous system (say hello to the whole zombie flic).
The moment the CIA officially released some footages of their toys the roozkies shat themselves so hard they instantly pulled out the nuclear tsunami torpedo project from the 60s (it was made by that "peaceful" fag Sakharov lmao)
>Hollow EarthersSome people just can't escape from the caprealism to somewhere else.
No.1542658
>>1542518>>1542525Can you go spam somewhere else with your honest to god schizo breakdown?
jesus.
No.1542712
>>1542525This is the type of shit you have to be on to be a marxist in this era
No.1542713
>>1542658It’s not like it’s any less intelligible than your average anarchist “theory”
No.1542714
>>1542484Hold on, remind me where the USSR is again? Oh yeah I forgot, it is not fucking here anymore, it was replaced because of a conservative nationalistic counter-revolution. Guess what, functioning socialism doesn't have that fucking happening.
No.1542732
>>1542714Russia is back and fighting against imperialism, in spite of NATO’s best efforts, and China is the most powerful nation on earth, both lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty and serving as a beacon of hope for billions more. What have you accomplished?
No.1542743
>>1542732Russia, a monopoly capitalist country, is literally fighting a war to conquer territories and markets, if you read Lenin you'd know they are imperialist. Same goes for China which is ruthlessly exploiting the third world, unless you think all the mines they own in Africa are managed by local worker councils and pay in worker vouchers.
No.1542848
>>1542743They will hate you cause you speak the truth
No.1542851
>>1542743>China which is ruthlessly exploiting the third worldSource: it was revealed to me in a dream.
No.1542876
>>1541456i was packing a bong as i read this
No.1542887
>>1541613the fact you're saying that is starting a debate about idpol
No.1542890
>>1542714>>1542713>>1542732>>1542743>>1542766>>1542848>>1542851i hate you people and i am never trying to make this thread again you retards don't deserve generals.
No.1542919
in my opinion, anarchism's association with punk and alternative music did more harm than good for it, as it just became associated with edginess and teenagers and mindlessly wanting chaos by the average person, and is taken far less seriously. especially when bands started using anarchy and its symbolism without giving any political insight or making any political statement
No.1542946
>>1542931>There's some interesting ideas to it certainly but I dont think it's practical for the world at large.that's about where I'm at with it
No.1543042
>>1542931Post-apocalyptic stories are Hollywood bullshit mixed with pro-gov scare propaganda (dating centuries back).
People already know how to effectively produce and repair things and grow food so they will be doing just that without the ruling caste too. They won't be just "scavenging".
No.1543627
>>1541067Are Marxists simply bullshitting too when they say that they want the state to wither away? Or is that they will reach the stateless society only after they establish their rule over the whole world? And this is somehow more "realistic" than a limited-territory anarchism?
No.1543637
>>1543627>Or is that they will reach the stateless society only after they establish their rule over the whole world? The issue is that you can't abolish the state unless you abolish the conditions that give rise to it, the most prominent of which is class struggle. Do Anarchists not agree that the state comes into existence as a result of class conflict?
No.1543640
>>1543627My
main goal here is everybody housed, fed, happy and free to do what they want.
The state withering away is the outcome of such conditions but I'm far more interested in the practical outcome.
So I'm not bullshitting as such, of course I want it to because the conditions I want require it, but why should anybody sane care about it as the primary goal instead of the bit where people are fed, housed, and free?
If in practice there still has to be a tiny bit of something that an anarchist would call a state why should I care what that anarchist thinks?
I hope this has clarified the issue.
No.1543653
>>1543637Personally I can only see the class struggle between the rulers and the ruled, otherwise it's mutually beneficial cooperation. The state is a result of a violent conquest and there is nothing more to it. But other anarchists can view it differently, we vary quite a lot.
No.1544085
>>1541670Having reviewed this it is recommended listening.
I'd just like to note here that anthropological studies of hunter gatherer societies like the Khoisan egalitarianism is enforced severely, and Graeber I think it was among others noted that among the Iroquois I think it was or some other indigenous north american tribes, things counter to egalitarianism were treated like a cancer.
No.1544092
>>1543653>Personally I can only see the class struggle between the rulers and the ruledI think that's oversimplifying it. Anarchists have a tendency to view power in a very abstract way, and see the state as some kind of body which stands above society instead of being spawned by it and reflecting its composition. Power is always reciprocal, and an interesting illustration of this is the kind of feudal oaths that vessels would swear to their lords. They almost always boiled down to promises of fealty, taxes, etc in exchange for protection. Now of course this disproportionately benefitted the nobility, but there was still reciprocity in the sense that if the Cumans or Vikings came knocking, the local lord was expected to raise an army from his personal retinue, pay for it of his own pocket, and protect the local population. What I'm getting at is that any state has to represent a particular coalition of interests, and I think the real question when examining a given state is not by what means it administers those interests (ie autocracy vs democracy), but what interests are represented. If the point of democracy is to create a government that reflects the will and interests of the majority, then I have no problem saying that an autocracy which rules in the interest of the majority is more democratic in content than a "democracy" which rules in the interests of a minority. Consider for example Caesar's dictatorship, which was wildly popular with poor Romans, vs the Republic, which was a bastion of elite privilege. If we apply this to AES for example (and ignore the fact that many of these states had very real democratic mechanisms in place), then we still are left with states that based their rule on serving the interests of oppressed people. The problem as I see it comes from the fact that in class society, you have a set of interests which are diametrically and irreconcilably opposed. The capitalist cannot benefit except at the expense of the worker, and their material conditions force them to constantly seek to intensify this exploitation. This is not the case even in flawed AES states. Bureaucrats weren't constantly threatened with extinction if they didn't squeeze workers harder and harder, and the result is a state that is objectively more capable of integrating the broadest mass of the population's interests into state policy. Both full democracy and statelessness can only he achieved when this integration is so seamless that, as Lenin says, the state loses its "political" character (ie the character of protecting one set of class interests at the expense of another), and is reduced to a mere body of collective administration. Of course this can't happen prior to the conditions that allow it to happen (virtual elimination of class distinctions) already being established, and AES have come closer than anybody else to achieving this.
No.1544094
>>1542931The basic definition doesn't sound awful but I've tried to read post-civ theory and it's quite awful
No.1544102
>>1544092Literally nothing you said contrasts with what anarchists actually believe, many anarchists believe democracy is a farcical notion to begin with. What anarchists may say is laughable is the notion that an autocrat can act in the interests of “the majority”, anarchists may call that a vague and nebulous concept, anarchists would likely point out that it is you, and not them, that is acting as though the state is an entity outside of and above society, they would likely state that the notion that a state can actually serve the interests of anyone but those who compose it and those who fund it is also laughable
Anarchists would not at all deny that the state exists to serve the interests of a private ruling class, they just disagree with what they view as an absurd notion from Marxist-Leninists (and I’m specifying them and not Marxists here) that states, which are designed to function with special powers of individuals and groups within society, can actually be made to serve the interests of either masses of people, collective or individual freedom, the actual premise of the state goes against all of those things and the state isn’t an empty suit you just fill with the people who have the correct ideology so they can act against the correct enemy
No.1544113
>>1544102>What anarchists may say is laughable is the notion that an autocrat can act in the interests of “the majority”Why is that laughable? What would stop them from doing so?
>they would likely state that the notion that a state can actually serve the interests of anyone but those who compose it and those who fund it is also laughableWell that obviously isn't true, insofar as it assumes that the interests of ordinary people and state officials are always and irreconcilably opposed in the same way class interests are. Clearly the Cuban government served the interests of its population when it made basic needs universal, carried out land reform, invested heavily in healthcare and education, and expelled foreign corporations. If a state official receives complaints from the people they're responsible for, there's no iron law preventing him from doing what he can to give them what they want.
>they just disagree with what they view as an absurd notion from Marxist-Leninists (and I’m specifying them and not Marxists here) that states, which are designed to function with special powers of individuals and groups within society, can actually be made to serve the interests of either masses of peopleAll states serve the interests of masses of people. In any given society the ruling class, even when a small minority, still number in the hundreds of thousands or more. The only question is which mass of people are served.
>collective or individual freedomSo did it not serve collective or individual freedom when the Chinese government made it possible for people whose ancestors had been dirt poor peasants for the last 5000 years to get an education, pursue a much wider range of careers, travel abroad and throughout their country, etc? Would you unironically claim that Soviet citizens in 1970 were exactly as unfree as Russians in 1900, despite having far greater choice in what kind of life they wanted to live? What is freedom if not expanding the ways in which a person can choose to live their life?
>the state isn’t an empty suit you just fill with the people who have the correct ideology so they can act against the correct enemyIt's not wrong to say that the people who compose a state can have their own interests, but it's completely wrong to say that it can pursue those interests without regard for the desire of the people they rule. All states necessarily must assemble a coalition of social elements which endorse or at least tolerate their rule, which in turn means incorporating their interests to a minimum degree. Any state that failed to do this would be unable to hold on to power, and would collapse under the slightest pressure like the Bourbon Restoration did in 1830. Thus the state is not an abstract entity existing outside of the society it rules, but is a cross section of society reflecting the political strength if its various components, assembled into a hegemonic coalition.
No.1544492
>>1544113>Why is that laughable? What would stop them from doing so?It is like with planned production, you need some marketing study to find which product and in what quantity to produce. The numbers you get, is from struggle of many economic entities that you can group: shoes of type 1, … etc groups.
The law is common for all so I'm not sure… but outside of production a society is similar, different group conflicts that a state should somehow resolve, how?
A solution, when a group somehow gets so huge power on their side, as a state, is similar to monopoly on production that no one is happy with in the end.
Federations, soviets with direct democracy is more like how this should be done.
No.1544523
>>1544492>A solution, when a group somehow gets so huge power on their side, as a state, is similar to monopoly on production that no one is happy with in the end.Yeah but a state never serves the interest of just one group, that's my whole point. They are hegemonic institutions, they create coalitions of forces in which one set of interests predominate, but only to a degree tolerable to subordinate components. In the New Deal era of American capitalism corporate interests of course dominated, but the reason why they did this so effectively was because this domination was tempered by major concessions and compromises to (white) workers. This is how the American ruling class turned their principal antagonists into some of their most reliable supporters in the mid-20th century. The result was a state where revolution was quite literally impossible. Autocracies can and do the same as all states must. Any state which fails to assemble a sufficient coalition of interests will not be able survive a real challenge from within, since too few people will be willing to defend it, and too many will want it gone.
>Federations, soviets with direct democracy is more like how this should be done.Of course, but these are just different mechanisms for achieving a hegemonic equilibrium. You could argue that they are better for this, and I'm inclined to agree, but I think you're denying reality if you are going to claim that autocracies have never assembled such coalitions in which progressive forces (workers, oppressed nationalities, etc) played a leading hegemonic role. In my view, the successful creation of such a coalition is more important than the mechanism used to bring it about. It's easier to turn a socialist autocracy into a socialist democracy than turn a capitalist "democracy" into a socialist one.
No.1552581
>>1544523>Come to the one Anarchist thread on lefty/pol/ just to shill statismYou really are a faggot cat anon
No.1552594
>>1541646Neither does marx
No.1552596
Can someone explain what exactly was the beef with anarchists in Lenin's USSR?
No.1552694
>>1552596bolsheviks wanted a state to manage the transition to socialism while anarchists wanted the state abolished
No.1552749
>>1552715
This didn't really answer the question, just explained the wider circumstances of the Makhnovshchyna.
No.1552754
>>1552749…Its a troll, anon.
No.1552953
>>1552941
it didn't answer the question as to why the makhno rebellion was put down, all your posts did was add context to the anarchists in Russia during the civil war.
Why did Trotsky put down the Makhnovshchyna during the civil war?
No.1553688
>>1552941
>Thanks for proving my point.
That's okay, no problem anon. Some other anons are very autistic and cannot tell when they are clearly replying to troll posts so it is good to warn them.
No.1554063
>>1552596>soviets were disbanded and power was in the hands of a small elite instead of the workers>no worker ownership just state ownership>workers treated as slaves. Get sent to camps if you try to organize and improve working conditionsThe list goes on.
No.1554478
>>1552749They weren’t a bolshevik held territory
That’s more or less the answer
No.1554656
>>1554063Genuine question: do you think the consolidation and survival of a revolution can be successful without a lot of harsh coercive measures? I think communists too often make virtue of necessity when it comes to political repression, seeing it as a righteous end in itself as opposed to a regretably often necessary means. But I am more confused by anarchists' blanket contempt for coercive measures, given that by and large anarchists are fully supportive of revolutionary warfare, with all the horrors that entails. A revolutionary government banning strikes and independent unions is certainly ugly, that we can agree on whether or not we agree it can be justified, but I dont see how it is somehow uglier than actual warfare. If you can justify Makhno's forces killing the peasants conscripted into the White forces, many of whom certainly either dont know better or dont have any other option, many of whom are certainly little more than kids, I dont see how you can maintain that something like a ban on strikes is self evidently unjustifiable. There's not much that's more coercive than bullets and empty bowls.
No.1554728
>>1554478But according to the anarchist point of view, they tried very much to ally with bolshevik sphere. I'm genuinely curious as to what the root of the argument between the anarchists and leninists was, because I'm not entirely sure myself.
All I know is it happened.
No.1555030
>>1554728I already told you what the root was
You're trying to find an idealist answer where I guess the bolsheviks come out looking good, but the most obvious answer is more or less also the answer
No.1555390
>>1555030ah yes, the materialist explanation for everything can come down to "merely existing"
anprim anon, you're really in a league of your own
No.1555398
>>1555390It doesn't come down to merely existing
The bolsheviks were trying to consolidate their hold on the former Russian Empire, destroying the anarchist movement was part of that process
The fuck do you think "materialism" is?
No.1555453
>>1555398yep, makes sense to turn on the only resistance to the white army in Ukraine because, just because, okay???
No.1555464
>>1555453They weren't the only resistance, the whites were already defeated in Ukraine when the bolsheviks betrayed the anarchists, and the only reason you think I'm saying they did it for essentially no reason is because you're refusing to accept the actual reason, which is that they turned on them because they were anarchists, and between killing them and reclaiming Ukraine or letting them be they opted to kill them and reclaim Ukraine
This is like trying to find an explanation for the Holocaust but refusing to accept antisemitism as part of the answer lmao
No.1555477
>>1541652I'm a sativa man and more Marxist vs. Anarchist. Hmmm.
No.1562920
Call for International Week of Solidarity with Anarchist Prisoners 2023 // 23 – 30 AugustThe world is on fire. The climate crisis is getting worse and worse. Instead of masks against Covid-19, people now have to wear masks against smoke from forest fires. At the same time huge areas getting flooded due to heavy rain caused by the ongoing pollution of the environment. Nothing of that is caused by individual decisions of the people. It is not cause by buying the wrong product in the supermarket. It is caused by the systematic exploitation of nature and humanity. Governments and big corporations are the ones steering us into a climate catastrophe that, at this point, seems to be unstoppable.
Governments and big corporations that created a world where wealthy people are more important than others. This was especially visible while the global media had nothing better to do than talking for 5 days about a missing submarine filled with 5 rich people, while hundreds of others are dying in the mediterranean sea during their try to get chances for a better life.
Extreme right, conservative and authoritarian politics are increasing all around the world. Some use it to start Wars and kill thousands of people, some build fences and guard what they think is their property and others use it to arm up in the digital world. Surveillance is increased and the states are leaping more and more into our private spaces, analyzing our private conversations and collecting data about us with a depth of detail we could never have imagined. The tools of the states to crush resistance, crush even the idea of fighting the system, are sharpened with every minute. Many anarchists, anti-authoritarians, environmental activists, and antifascist around the world face repression because acting anonymous in a digitalized world is as difficult as never before.
With all the obstacles put into our way during the struggle for a better world, anarchist ideas and values remain important. In times of crisis methods of collective organizing, mutual aid and the principle of solidarity start to shine. The system will fall apart and we should get ready to take back a world that was stolen by companies, yacht owners and the war industry. A world that was meant for everyone. And while our friends are put behind bars and states try to hide them in the darkest corners of their prisons, we will not hold still but fight till they are free again.
Let’s break out together!
That is why we are calling again for International Week of Solidarity with Anarchist Prisoners. Do some action of solidarity! Write letters, organize speeches or film screenings, make our comrades visible on the streets with a banner drop or a graffiti and let them show that they are in our hearts and that we are fighting together.
Let’s remember those who fought against this injustice and payed with their lives.
No one is free, till all are free!
https://solidarity.international/ No.1563320
>>1541067why no bakunin or proudhon?
No.1563334
>>1563320>>1552710Because i copy and pasted from the archive.
Nobody else bothered to make this thread all year and i didn't exactly want to do it so if you want a better OP or to add Stirner like everyone on the damn website has not read him twice already then i suggest you actually write one next time you lazy bastards tbqhf.
No.1563811
if there was no state nothing could stop capitalism
No.1563827
>>1563811Capitalism could not exist without private property, private property can only exist as long as there is a state apparatus to define, protect, and enforce its existence.
You are a moron.
No.1563832
>>1563827private property can exist without the state
No.1563833
>>1563832What is presented without evidence may be refuted without evidence.
No.1563834
>>1563833ok then I'll just apply the same logic to your special snow flake anarchism lmao
No.1563904
>>1563834I am not an anarchist, this logic applies to all forms of infantile disorder, including anarchism.
No.1564275
>>1563833>>1563904Oh yea?
Like the notion that the state’s own constituents somehow, mystically, lack their own direct incentives and a single party autocratic state will magically “wither away” (into something other than capitalism which directly serves those who run it)?
Tell me what evidence do you actually have for anything you believe in other than “there will be states that call themselves socialist”?
>>1563832>>1563834Even if ownership could capitalism proper never has and never would, it literally emerged out of conditions imposed by absolute monarchies
No.1564490
>>1564275I'm sorry I don't really wanna get into a massive debate on Anarchism vs Whateverelse
BUT I never said that the state would magically wither away, in fact, I'm not even a Marxist either, but I agree with you that capitalism emerged out of conditions imposed by absolute monarchies.
No.1572455
Italy: ‘How does it change?’ (Come si cambia?) from the 12th issue of the internationalist anarchist newspaper “Bezmotivny”Editors Note: On 8th August a repressive operation has been inflicted upon 10 comrades, resulting in four house arrests with all restrictions, five residence obligations with overnight return, and one comrade in prison due to not having proof of residence. All are accused of the charge of subversive association for the purpose of terrorism (art. 270 bis c. p.) and incitement to commit crimes (art. 424 c. p.) aggravated by the purpose of terrorism, in connection with the publication, as of 2020, of the fortnightly internationalist anarchist “Bezmotivny,” as well as offense to the honor and prestige of the president of the republic and clandestine printing.
Translate and reproduce below the editorial from the last publication of Bezmotivny No.12 ‘Come si cambia?’ (How does it change?)
How does it change?Within the Italian anarchist movement, is the need and importance of a printed newspaper still felt? In a world dominated by digital and immediacy, is it still subversive and revolutionary to print and disseminate a material tool of anarchist propaganda?
These are two questions that we have been asking ourselves over the two and a half years that the fortnightly “Bezmotivny” has been out, and which become all the more urgent now, at a time when the paper has been going through, unfortunately for several months already, a deep crisis that seriously threatens its existence.
Yes, comrades, “Bezmotivny” is in danger of never coming out again, seriously beset by two fundamental problems.
The first is financial: there is no more money to be able to pay for the printing and mailing of the newspaper. The fact is that nearly 50 percent of subscribers have not yet renewed their subscriptions for the current year, although they continue to receive the periodical. In addition, some places that receive 5 or 10 copies to disseminate it have long since stopped sending us money from newspapers sold. Add to this the increases in paper and shipping costs, and that’s it.
The second problem involves both the editorial staff and, in our opinion, the anarchist movement itself. The editorial staff, inasmuch as only 3 or 4 comrades are now left to work constantly for the release of each issue of the journal, while the others make minimal material contributions. The movement, in that the initial project of “Bezmotivny” to enlarge the editorial area to include other and different comrades outside the Carrara area (from which the idea of the fortnightly came and which saw comrades give heads and arms to the paper) has essentially failed. Failed both in the enlargement of the editorial staff itself and as contributions on certain issues or debates. Because, if there were contributions at certain times, these were unfortunately occasional and did not lead to more constant collaboration on the part of the comrades involved, as was the initial intention of the paper. Collaboration that, beyond the articles or interventions sent, also concerned the diffusion of the periodical within the area of anarchism to which it, for good or ill, referred, and that if on the part of some realities was constant and passionate, on the part of many others unfortunately did not develop.
Of why this did not happen, there would need to be a more in-depth analysis. Here we will merely mention a few points that may have contributed to this failure. “Bezmotivny” may have been perceived as yet another tool for the dissemination of a certain type of anarchism that was closed in on itself, and in its iron convictions, which wanted to represent the voice of certain comrades intent on expressing and spreading their beliefs without any kind of contradiction or debate. It must also be said that paper-based discussions and debates have, for some decades now, lost the value and importance they had in past times mainly due to the now disproportionate use, even among comrades, of the Internet and so-called social and chat rooms (Facebook, Instagram, Telegram, etc.). In these virtual places, communiqués, interventions and responses on “movement” issues abound, favored by the immediacy and rapidity of their dissemination among “hundreds” or “thousands” of (virtual) contacts. And it does not matter if such interventions are then lost in the magnum sea of digital, swamped by hundreds of other posts, articles, comments, which inevitably take away weight and value from those that would have reason to be more analyzed and discussed. It is like when one enters a supermarket and is overwhelmed by the abundance and indifference of the products and goods contained therein. It is the debasement of the individual contribution, drowned in the ocean of the immediate and utterly indistinct, which leads to, among other things, the ridicule of offering books and magazines in a context as other and degrading as precisely that of a supermarket.
In a printed newspaper, on the other hand, the limitation of space (and time) calls for more reflection and analysis should therefore be the ideal place for subversive discussion, which does not become overwhelmed by urgency and quantity, but instead gives itself time and space for insights that can then flow into everyday (and nightly) action. All this currently seems to be stifled by an anxiety to intervene and appear that cuts the legs off any reflection and project tending toward a real subversion of this society. It is as if we are saying to ourselves: this world is now no longer revolutionizable, the only possibility we have is testimony. And that this “testimony” drowns in digital indifference is the necessary and obvious counterpoint to the victory and domination of the “best – if not the only – of all possible worlds.”
Is it therefore still necessary and useful-to return to one of the initial questions-an anarchist printed journal for the anarchist movement (as well as for propagating anarchist ideas)? We believe so, but perhaps for the current conditions of the movement it is probably arduous and exceedingly challenging because it is contrary and dissimilar to the concept of witnessing.
In 1913, in a letter addressed to a comrade, Malatesta, referring to the periodical “Volontà” said that he attached “the greatest importance to the success of the newspaper, not only because of the propaganda it will be able to accomplish, but also because it will be useful as a means, and as a cover, for work of a more practical nature.” It will be objected that these were other times, these were other men, this was another anarchist movement. And therein lies the point of the question. What is our purpose today as anarchists? If back then it was to provoke and actively take part in an insurrection that would bring down the monarchical regime, what is the goal of today’s anarchist movement (getting the question of testimony out of the way)? And so, closing the circle, what are our aspirations, the practical goals of us editors of “Bezmotivny,” or any other printed newspaper? If putatively someone not close to the movement approached us because of the elegant persuasiveness of our articles, what would we have to offer him? The abstract beauty of an ideal made of freedom, equality and social justice, combined, however, with the vagueness and inability of its eventual and possible practical realization? But then it would be better to leave it where it was, at least we will not risk being accused of irresponsibly deluding another poor wretch, dazzled by the syntactical correctness of our denunciations and accusations.
A newspaper, of course, cannot be made only by its contents and stylistic format, but it is the material representation of those who compose, edit, disseminate and use it. It is a relationship, made of flesh and blood, ideals and hopes, actions and illusions. It is the tool and means for comrades to feel kinship in a project or campaign, even a temporary one, of political and social subversion. And it is a tool and means of reflection and propaganda for those who are not anarchists but are fed up with this world of oppressed and oppressors.
If this relationship is lacking, and is not felt to be necessary and useful, then it is good for the printed newspaper to die, before it is reduced to mere testimony, yet another material appendage of an increasingly virtual digital world.
And it is precisely to test whether there is still room for such a relationship that we would like to call a two-day discussion and debate with the aim of broadening and ultimately refounding an editorial group that pushes its horizons beyond the battered Apuan Alps.
On Sept. 9-10 we will meet at the Circolo Culturale Anarchico “G. Fiaschi” in Carrara to discuss and relate with those who would like to relaunch and engage in a printed newspaper that would be a real and active expression and instrument of a wide and varied group of comrades yearning for a radical project of social overthrow.
Thus, what you have in your hands is the last issue of “Bezmotivny” before that meeting, from which may result the final end of the project or its immediate revival.
…
Senzamotivo
[Published in “Bezmotivny,” Internationalist Anarchist Fortnightly, Year III, No. 12, July 17, 2023, pp. 1-2]
Poster [picrel]: Against the repression against anarchists in Indonesia<Against the repression against anarchists in IndonesiaIn the past few years we have seen a massive crackdown on anarchist individuals and cells by the State. Though in some cases it was arbitrary arrests of individuals, the recent state-sponsored studies on anarchist activity in Indonesia has been brought to our attention.
It is because of these reasons and also to secure our comrades that are already targeted by the State that we need better infrastructure of resistance in this era of social control and surveillance. The necessity of this proposed solidarity infrastructure is part of our continual revolt against the state and its apparatus. We are not paranoid or overwhelmed by fear, in fact the opposite, we want to strike harder than before and we want to get better at storming the heavens. You can support our infrastructure of resistance project:
Paypal:
https://www.paypal.me/PalangHitamBitcoin: bc1qdnwyn9pwccngewszyq67azztdc6cznjhj346vt
<Informal Anarchist Groups and Individuals / West Java FOR ORGANISED INSURRECTIONAL ATTACK!
>––<Call for revolutionary solidarity with anarchist comrades in IndonesiaAgain the repressive international security state moves against the anarchist tendencies who fight to establish and maintain their existence as a threat to the system. The anarchists in Indonesia who are principled enough to put their words into actions are our comrades in struggle. In an increased atmosphere of anti-anarchist repression against the movement in Indonesia, alongside the criminalization of the Anarchist Black Cross group there, we call for international solidarity and closer contact for mutual aid and common projects, to aid anarchists under repression and help support anarchist infrastructures.
In April 2022, Muh Taufiqrrohman, a security consultant writing for Stratsea, published a short analytic article as part of calls for repression of the anarchist movement in Indonesia. The language of this security ‘expert’ is clearly drawn from the European ‘anti-extremist’ playbook. Since this analysis was no idle threat from Stratsea and the Indonesian regime, we can learn from, and analyze the strategy of European and American security companies to export repressive techniques to new countries for adoption of common approaches at a local level. Similar repressive analysis and implementation can be found as practiced in other countries and we can examine their proposals, understand them and act against them.
For a black international.
–
Stratsea: Uncoding the Indonesia Lone Wolf Anarchist
Written by the author, security consultant Muh Taufiqurrohman
https://stratsea.com/uncoding-the-indonesian-lone-wolf-anarchist/ No.1572527
>>1572455Chile: Mother’s words for comrade Zukato(OP: (Zukato: the student severely injured at the occupation and his mother violently repressed by the carabineros))
Dear Compañerxs:
To tell you that physically Zukato is stable, out of risk and advancing every day in his recovery. We are grateful for every show of solidarity during these days; from long accompaniments outside the hospital, the propaganda in the streets, in the territories and also in other brother towns. These actions and gestures undoubtedly transform rage and pain into hope.
The secondary struggle of our young people has been going on for decades, demanding dignified conditions to study where the repressive apparatus of the state has only criminalized them, instead of providing a solution and establishing minimum conditions. They have delivered letters, they have had meetings with the local power and nothing has been achieved, the small advances have been taken out in marches, hunger strikes and takeovers.
The costs have been extremely high for many of them. Today again they are calling to “resolve the petitions” because we all dream of a decent education, where high schools should be a protective factor and not a risk factor. They have also positioned themselves in a place against the system of misery and exploitation that we are inheriting from them, they have positioned themselves against repression, abuses, child abuse in sename centers, against prison and in favor of freedom.
They have much to teach us. While we, the working class, seem to put up with poor conditions willingly, the rich have never had to worry about their children not receiving a quality education, rather they are being trained to run the world they are left.
Sadly in this struggle today was my son Zukato. His speedy recovery, is impregnated with all the good vibes, prayers or thoughts that each of you sent him. We are not alone.
So let’s keep thinking, supporting his recovery from wherever and however we can.
Hold on Class solidarity!
Muchas gracias.
No.1573099
curious what forms of organization anarchists here think are viable, specifically in terms of organizing among anarchists themselves. asking as a sympathetic non-anarchist communist
it seems to me that explicitly anarchist mass organizations are strategically counterintuitive, at least in the contemporary west but likely throughout the world. historically it seems as if such anarchist mass orgs grew organically out of the concentration of workers & peasants together onto factory floors & in field creating a preexisting group with a de facto structure that only needed to be convinced, and today it seems like efforts to replicate this through recruitment are misguided. i'd assume it would be preferable to instead lean into the strengths of decentralization, and have looser networks of individuals embedding themselves in various different positions, particularly in jobs that allow for the gathering of intelligence about state activity. even a low level civil service job in logistics will receive emails about police responses to demos & riots, and an embedded anarchist can anonymously pass that info along to people who can spread the word. even a handful of anarchists embedded in those kind of institutions, with strong communication with eachother through secure channels, could be pretty potent
No.1573168
>>1573099>historically it seems as if such anarchist mass orgs grew organically out of the concentration of workers & peasants together onto factory floors & in field creating a preexisting group with a de facto structure that only needed to be convinced, and today it seems like efforts to replicate this through recruitment are misguided.True, but also true for the entire radical left tbf. Late-stage capitalism does seem to be genuinely reaching unsustainable levels and people are becoming agitated again, although society is structured very differently in "developed countries" so the shape these movements ultimately assume will be novel and specific to the historical moment. A lot of the left I think is just impatient and trying to force the issue instead of using the resources they have now to do what work is appropriate now (preparatory education and organization).
>i'd assume it would be preferable to instead lean into the strengths of decentralization, and have looser networks of individualsPretty much, kind of the "essence" of anarchism is that you can take the idea of the working class as revolutionary subject all the way to its logical conclusion, that rather than giving the people one specific structure (the party) to organize their actions, that it's the people who will develop organizations (plural) to serve their needs, putting the working class in command of any parties or other revolutionary organizaitons.
>embedding in the stateYou don't necessarily need anarchists doing that to get access to that information. A lot of it is public anyway (like police scanners), and it's not that hard to find people inside the bureaucracy who are sympathetic without necessarily being radicalized. Actually embedding people can carry a risk for little to no benefit, especially once they start to suspect subterfuge and compartmentalize information to identify where the leak is. It can be viable in some situations though, especially if you're not in a country that's prone to executing people doing this kind of thing. It can also be useful to sow paranoia among state agents about anarchist infiltrators and get them to witch-hunt themselves.
>curious what forms of organization anarchists here think are viable, specifically in terms of organizing among anarchists themselvesDepends very much on context. Organizations need to be flexible in order to combat the many fronts on which we have to fight capitalism. More than specific forms of organization, we should be teaching people organizational skills so that when the time comes for major movement, as many people will be able to seize the opportunity as possible. We can't rely on any single group succeeding (or surviving) in the chaos. It will be up to the people organizing to choose what form of organization suits their strategic and tactical needs the best.
That said…
There are any number of fairly well-defined types of organizations that are useful now and potentially in the future in a state of heightened conflict.
Mutual Aid and
dual-power types of organizations are pretty obvious ones when it comes to organizing people ahead of a crisis. So are
co-operatives, which have the added benefit of raising funds/resources. For dealing with specific problems directly you have
action groups that form more or less organically for the time they're needed and then dissolve. Then you have the
communes or
autonomous zones at a larger scale, but those require pretty specific conditions to be viable (the ability to claim territory). You also have syndicate style organizing between affiliated groups for things that need to be coordinated at larger scales. These kinds of structures can be adapted for "wartime" situations, and then of course you have
militia organizations that are specifically suited to guerilla style warfare (but can serve as
people's protection units or
community defense at other times). That's just off the top of my head - there are more, and you can either search up about them or ask ITT for more about specific ones.
No.1581680
Bump for the excessive catalog sliding and jannie inaction atm.
No.1581766
>>1581680would you rather if we moved this thread to the /edu/ board?
I think these kinds of specific leftist variant threads are a good idea in general but the /leftypol/ board proper isnt the best place for them in the long term since its the fastest board and it sometimes outpaces these sort of more heavy and dense discussion/theory-oriented threads that arent as active
I could move this thread to /edu/, which is technically the
correct board for it, just lmk
(I would also move all of the more theory/philosophy/humanities-oriented threads on /leftypol/ in general to the /edu/ board anyways, if not for the constant bitching i get from ppl when their threads end up getting moved to the proper topical board every damn time) No.1581780
>>1581766TBH i would rather you just put the effort in to cleaning up the main board in stead of suggest we move to a board no body uses anon.
Moving to /edu/ does not mean you are going to have a better discussion it just means you are going to have either no discussion or discussion with the same 3 people who actually use the various hobby boards.
And to be less polite: It is especially more silly when you threaten this fait to an 'Anarchy General', considering Anarchism is about what we do, not the ideas we spew at each other like academics to feel smart and important. If that is what you ML types are happy to consign yourself as then fine, but do not make the mistake of projecting your own failings and ivory tower tendencies for the failings and of other tendencies.
picrel EN:
EVICTIONS KILLWhat happened in Spandau, Brunsbüttler Damm, on Tuesday, July 24, is not an isolated incident but one of the many moments in which the capitalist system reveals itself in its murderous consequence. A system in which the right to property is valued more highly and protected by the state than a person’s need to have a roof over their head.
We know little about the fatal circumstances or what his ideas were, indeed who the 62-year-old tenant was who resisted his eviction with a firearm and appears to have shot himself during the ensuing SEK operation. And what we do know has previously passed through the hands of the media and cops, rather than coming from direct communication. But even without this information, we can see the systematics behind these moments. Namely, that while housing companies and private owners of thousands of apartments are raking in fat profits, rents in Berlin are skyrocketing, the supply of rental housing is extremely scarce, and current crises and inflation are driving tenants into an extremely precarious situation where monthly money is barely enough to cover all costs.
Evictions are an everyday expression of a steadily growing gap between rich and poor. In 2021, around 1,668 evictions – alone by official statistics – took place in Berlin, more than 4 per day. The responsibility for this lies with homeowners, politicians, judges and the cops, because they are all on the side of injustice. The fact that their decisions have consequences for the lives of tenants, can drive them into despair and out of their usual neighborhoods into isolation, homelessness and a spiral of poverty, is a deliberate consequence that is considered secondary. By putting increasing profit as a priority, with the political backup from the side of the state and with the help of their loyal servants (cops) speculators are attacking the lower social class. Again and again, evictions end deadly, such as:
* on 03.08.2022 in Cologne, when cops shot Lousef B. during his eviction
* on 31.05.2021 in Berlin, when Peter H. took his own life before his eviction
* on 11.04.2013 in Berlin, when Rosemarie F. died two days after her forced eviction in a cold aid facility
Poverty and precariousness are often seen as an individual problem. Most of the affected people are ashamed and do not dare to talk about it. This is part of the system in which social grievances are marked as individual fate or personal responsibility and thus their logic is reversed. The injustices that the system of expolitation and opression produces are being transfered on the shoulders of the people creating even more exclusions.
As a house collective including tenants and squaters we see ourselves as part of this social war/fight. Standing next to the excluded, the ones who face repression and oppresion we are trying to create collective spaces to fight back, solidarity neighborhoods that create communities that overcome and attack neoliberal capitalism.
Against the city of the rich!
Investors, politicians, cops hand off our homes!
Rigaer94
No.1581800
>>1581780>It is especially more silly when you threaten this fait to an 'Anarchy General'> If that is what you ML types are happy to consign yourself as then fine, but do not make the mistake of projecting your own failings and ivory tower tendencies for the failings and of other tendencieslol what
no idea how this is what you took from what i said
but anyways, all kinds of /ideology/ general threads with good effortposts and sources, pdfs, etc. tend to get outpaced from the proper board's general popularity and activity after a while, no clue why you feel like youre being singled out
it is merely a suggestion to better ensure this thread doesn't get bumped off, as we cant rly 100% guarantee to stop the thread from "sliding down the catalog" over time
but if you dont want that, thats totally fine lol
you can keep DIY bumping every few weeks all u want
No.1581823
>>1544113>All states serve the interests of masses of people. In any given society the ruling class, even when a small minority, still number in the hundreds of thousands or more. The only question is which mass of people are served.Then this is a bit of sophistry, isn't it? Of course, all states serve the interests of some group of people; I'm not an anarchist (or a Marxist-Leninist), but the anarchist critique is more that the state is serving the interests of those who have power in and through it.
>All states necessarily must assemble a coalition of social elements which endorse or at least tolerate their rule, which in turn means incorporating their interests to a minimum degree.Only in the most basic sense of "incorporate." If I cheat on someone I'm married to with other women, my efforts to meet these women will "incorporate" my wife's interest in a monogamous marriage and in me not cheating, namely by way of my efforts to evade her notice when corresponding or meeting with these other women.
If she discovers this and becomes angry that I've ignored her interests, my objection stating that I did consider her desires (in order to mislead her and realize my own interests) is entirely specious; it would simply be missing the point to object like this. She would (quite legitimately) think I was playing some sort of "lawyerly" word game, abusing an abstraction to avoid confronting the actual issues at hand, which is what you're doing through much of your comment.
No.1581854
>>1544113>All states necessarily must assemble a coalition of social elements which endorse or at least tolerate their rule, which in turn means incorporating their interests to a minimum degree. Any state that failed to do this would be unable to hold on to power, and would collapse under the slightest pressure like the Bourbon Restoration did in 1830. Thus the state is not an abstract entity existing outside of the society it rules, but is a cross section of society reflecting the political strength if its various components, assembled into a hegemonic coalition.Also, leaving aside whatever an anarchist might say: how is this any different from a quasi-Durheimian sociological functionalism, turning social systems into big, (mostly) happy families? Even Hegel in his
Philosophy of Right viewed the state as more internally riven than this.
On the one hand, you maintain that the question is "which mass of people are served," implying that different interests corresponding to different groups within a society would be served by a state.
On the other hand, you're saying that it's wrong to believe that those in the state or served by it are able to pursue their own interests "without regard for the desire of the people they rule," thus the conclusion that "all states necessarily must assemble a coalition of social elements which endorse or at least tolerate their rule, which in turn means incorporating their interests to a minimum degree," which implies that the "mass of people" served above would be everyone, at least "to a minimum degree."
So either I'm to believe that the state serves the interests of certain groups or the state serves everyone's interests (to whatever extent). But the only way you could maintain the latter as a Marxist of any sort is through the same sort of "word play" argument I mentioned in the other comment: for example, if I'm not interested in seeing communists injured or killed by my state, and the state then hides these activities better to minimize news reports, then voilà: the state has "served my interests." Again, doesn't this seem rather specious?
The inspiration for this sort of functionalism probably isn't Durkheim (directly) but the figure of "Gramsci" and the interpretations of "hegemony" by post-Marxists and sociologists. This interpretation of "hegemony" also resembles how neoclassical economics tends to regard all sides as benefiting from economic exchanges.
No.1582524
Operation ”Scripta Scelera” against the fortnightly “Bezmotivny”: first initiatives in solidarity, a brief update, some observationsIn the early morning of Tuesday, August 8th, a repressive operation – ridiculously named Scripta Scelera (these fine people always come up with some “ambitious” or suggestive name for their operations) [Latin: “written crimes”] – was unleashed by the State’s repressive apparatus in various cities. It was aimed at shutting down the anarchist internationalist fortnightly magazine “Bezmotivny”, thereby striking the action of publication of analysis and reflection as well as, and in particular, texts claiming actions, sabotage and initiatives of attack undertaken by anarchists and revolutionaries throughout the world against the State and capital.
Let’s take a brief look at the facts. Mainly involving anarchist comrades in Carrara and the “Gogliardo Fiaschi” Anarchist Cultural Circle, the operation consisted of notification of an investigation against 10 comrades, all of whom were subjected to house searches (as well as that against the above-mentioned anarchist circle), and significant seizures of newspapers and various publications. Concerning the 10 under investigation (for whom Genovese public prosecutor Manotti twice requested their arrest in prison), the judge for the preliminary investigations ordered house arrest with all restrictions (including electronic ankle bracelets, which were not applied due to lack of the necessary equipment) for four of the comrades, a night curfew from 19.00 to 7am for another five, while one comrade has no restrictions (at the police station they notified him of a two years’ compulsory expulsion order from the province of La Spezia). One of the comrades under house arrest was initially taken to prison on order of the same prosecutor, due to the fact that he did not have a certificate of residence. In the context of the operation, a printing press in Avenza, where the paper had recently been printed, was also shut down (and later re-opened).
On the evening of Wednesday 9th of August, solidarity greetings were screamed from outside the walls of the prison of La Spezia to the comrade locked up inside, in the hope that he’d hear them. Prisoners inside responded. On 10th and 11th August, at the court of Genoa, the hearing for the questioning of the nine comrades for whom the repressive measures had been ordered by the prosecutor took place. On August 10th the judge ordered the transfer of the comrade held in the prison of La Spezia to house arrest, and he arrived home in the evening. The next procedural deadline concerning the repressive measures is the pretrial hearing, the date of which is still to be fixed.
Saturday 12th August, a pre-announced initiative took place in piazza Gramsci in Carrara in solidarity with the comrades struck by the repressive operation. A demonstration of about eighty comrades set off from the gathering in the square, moving around the city centre until the evening chanting “The State has never put a stop to anarchist propaganda”, the text of one of the banners.
A few brief comments concerning this repressive operation. As already said, the investigation – mainly carried out by the DIGOS [political section] of the La Spezia police, the central direction of the prevention police, and the District Directorate of the Antimafia and Antiterrorism of Genova – has concentrated on the editorial activity, publication and distribution of “Bezmotivny” since 2020. Along the lines of what has already been done as part of the operation Sibilla by the Special Operative Regroupment of the carabinieri and by the prosecutor’s office of Perugia with the coordination of the National Antimafia and Antiterrorismo Direction (which it combined with a previous investigation in course in Milan), in which in September 2021 the prosecutor Comodi made a request for eight arrests in prison concerning as many comrades, among whom Alfredo Cospito, for the publication of the anarchist paper “Vetriolo”. This operation was also hinged on to charges of subversive association with aims of terrorism and subversion of the democratic order (art. 270 bis c. p.) and incitement to commit crimes (art. 414 c. p.) with the aggravating circumstance of aims of terrorism. This latest procedure therefore has significant similarities, as well as some differences, with that of the Perugia prosecution (in which, among other things, three of the comrades involved in this latest investigation are also under investigation).
First of all, although this is not an investigation aimed at backing up the detention measure of 41 bis against Alfredo Cospito (in prison for over 10 years and who claimed the wounding of the CEO of Ansaldo Nucleare, R. Adinolfi), it continues to show – as emerges with obsessive repetition in the investigative acts – the brazen and vain attempts of the repressive forces to “redefine” relations between comrades, referring to the comrade Alfredo each time as “leader”, “ideologue”, a “theorist with an orientative role in actions”. Anarchist publications are referred to as “instigating” in relation to the realisation of revolutionary actions. In this sense, while war and the warmongering demands of States are the social and political background of our time, the ongoing repressive antianarchist campaign is aimed at silencing solidarity towards imprisoned revolutionaries and above all at striking the principle of solidarity among comrades, among the exploited, in their revolutionary and internationalist stance. Unlike the Sibilla operation for example (where the prosecutor clearly intended to show some “independence”), it is still significant as, given the public prosecutor’s request for 10 prison arrests, this proceeding has had almost complete endorsement in defining the precautionary measures, as for eight comrades the investigating judge referred to art. 270 bis c. p., thereby demonstrating total subjugation to the demands of the prosecutor.
In conclusion, it seems clear how this operation is aimed at striking the movement in its instruments of propaganda and agitation again in order to restore the prestige of the antimafia and the antiterrorism (the National Antimafia Direction also became the Antiterrorism some time ago, a coordinating structure of the offensive against anarchists for years) following the intense international solidarity movement that developed after the transfer of Alfredo Cospito to 41 bis and life sentence without parole, between the following October and April of this year. A mobilisation which, by preventing the comrade’s annihilation by succeeding in preventing an almost certain life sentence, has been a serious spanner in the works for the afore-mentioned repressive offensive and the maintenance of social peace.
Fully aware that this is not an operation against an inexistent “freedom of the press”, “of expression”, “of opinion”, inexistent because of the delusory lies of justice, we persevere in having no confidence in the latter, aware that the “technical” element is always dominated and directed by the “political” one. Precise needs of a political-ideological nature are what lead to these repressive operations and it is certainly not in the field of law that our struggle expresses itself (and, among other things, even if one wanted to it would be impossible to counter accusations essentially directed against comrades’ identity, personality and disposition). Repressive operations such as these do not stop anything at all: as long as there is a society divided into classes, exploitation and every form of social oppression, the State will never be able to stop revolutionary ideas, and anarchists will continue to struggle.
The Anarchist Cultural Circle, open in via Ulivi 8 in Carrara since the Seventies, is still active, with the archive in consultation, distribution and initiatives.
SOLIDARITY WITH GAIA, GINO, LUIGI, PAOLO AND ALL THE COMRADES UNDER INVESTIGATION
[August 15th 2023]
>>1581800Anon. It is /edu/, the theory board for people who's political praxis comes from books and a sense of intellectual superiority. Anarchism should have no part in this tendency of 'radicals'.
No.1583302
>>1582524I DON'T NEED A MAP WHILE HIKING, CARTOGRAPHERS ARE FILTHY INTELLECTUALS (falls into a ravine and dies)
No.1584043
>>1583302>Operation Scripta Scelera ifo<uhhh? cartographers?! ravines??are you having an episode? take your medications
anon you will be happy you did in 40 minutes.
>>1583300Anon i am saying very basic stuff everyone on this website understands, the express purpose of /edu/ since it's creation has been for theory wankery that amuses marxists.
No.1585489
How does an anarchist society seek to solve the economic calculation problem? Statist variants of socialism propose linear programming as the way out, however that might not be compatible with a decentralized society. Have anarchists discussed/debunked this problem before?
No.1585802
>>1585489If decentralized planning is your goal, parecon or Pat Devine's negotiated coordination are worth looking at. Cockshott's model doesn't necessarily require a state either
No.1586089
The tricky thing about being a practicing anarchist is that you're essentially forced into illegalism. Not that anarchism promotes crime; only that to live according to anarchist principles one must passively break laws as a matter of course. To refuse to pay taxes, to refuse answer the military draft, to take justice in one's own hands, to arm oneself as one pleases: all of this and so much more is to defy the might of the state, which is the only ultimate crime. The anarchist does not need to cheat or steal to be labeled a criminal. They must merely exist, affirm an idea. Immediately then society's arms of control seek to strangle them. Does this not prove something?
No.1586482
>>1581823>but the anarchist critique is more that the state is serving the interests of those who have power in and through itOf course, but my point is that it never serves only those interests, nor does it necessarily do so at the expense of everybody else.
>Only in the most basic sense of "incorporate." True, there are of course varying degrees to which people can be incorporated. They may have their interests represented to such a degree that they enthusiastically defend the status quo, or they may only find their position tolerable so long as resistance appears futile, or anything in between. My point is that we can't understand the real historical character of any state without understanding the precise anatomy of its hegemonic coalition, ie which groups are incorporated, in what way, and to what degree. If we obsess over the means by which these coalitions are managed (e.g. democracy vs autocracy), we risk losing sight of who is actually included in them (e.g. workers and peasants vs capitalists and landlords).
>>1581854>how is this any different from a quasi-Durheimian sociological functionalism, turning social systems into big, (mostly) happy families? I'm not suggesting this at all. I never said that the arrangements over which states preside and which they perpetuate are necessarily peaceful, harmonious, etc. Quite the opposite actually. They always rely extensively on violence, repression, disenfranchisement, etc. because this is the reality of class society. So long as class antagonisms exist, creating a hegemonic social structure that integrates everybody will be impossible, and as such many (often most) people will need to be kept in line primarily through force. However they can never rely solely on force, and must always integrate some part of society, giving effect to its interests. The question then is which part? The end goal of communism as I see it is to abolish these class antagonisms precisely so that this repressive function of the state is no longer necessary. In other words communism is the perfection of social hegemony, one that includes everybody sufficiently, and where all segments of society are represented.
My point is simply that the anarchist conception of a state, even an autocratic one, being inherently at odds with the working class is incorrect. Since all states must rely on the support of some coalition of interests and give expression to them in their policy, the issue of institutions of formal democracy is less important than the precise character of this coalition. This is because all forms of government are simply a mechanism for achieving such a coalition and managing its contradictions. The only difference between democracy and any other political system is that socialists generally hold that it's the best system for giving expression to the most progressive elements of society. In other words, democratic institutions for a socialist are a means to achieve an end, that end being a democratic hegemonic coalition, ie one that is broadly representative of the masses and progressive interests. However it seems to me that we ought to consider achieving these ends to be more important than the means we use, especially when the conditions of revolution make democratic methods extremely difficult if not impossible to implement. It's the equivalent of clutching pearls about whether a house is built using nails or screws, and treating this question as more important than whether or not the house has been built. If there is such a coalition where workers' and other progressive interests are dominant or at least strongly represented, then the mechanism by which this is accomplished matters less than the fact that it has been accomplished. This is especially the case when you consider that changing the means by which a hegemonic coalition is administered is easier than changing the coalition itself. States transition between types of government (autocracy and democracy) within the same relations of production far more easily than they change these relations. So I would argue that a socialist government, even a perfectly autocratic one, which roots itself in the working class (and other progressive elements, e.g. oppressed nationalities), relies on them for support, advances their interests, carries out key elements of socialist construction (like a planned economy), is in fact more democratic and emancipatory than a "democracy" which fails to do this. Not only does it actually give expression to the interests of broader and more progressive segments of society, but it will have an easier time establishing democratic institutions within socialist relations of production than a capitalist "democracy." Even more important for an anarchist, such a progressively-based state is in a far better position to resolve class contradictions and thus eliminate the conditions that give rise to the state in the first place.
>So either I'm to believe that the state serves the interests of certain groups or the state serves everyone's interests (to whatever extent)I never suggested that the state serves everybody's interests. I said it needs to assemble a coalition of interests in order to perpetuate itself, I never said that this coalition includes everybody. In fact it never does, since if it did it would cease to be a state.
>The inspiration for this sort of functionalism probably isn't Durkheim (directly) but the figure of "Gramsci" and the interpretations of "hegemony" by post-Marxists and sociologists. It's actually just Gramsci. From the Prison Notebooks:
<[Class forces] come into confrontation and conflict, until only one of them, or at least a single combination of them, tends to prevail, to gain the upper hand, to propagate itself throughout society— bringing about not only a unison of economic and political aims, but also intellectual and moral unity… and thus creating the hegemony of a fundamental social group over a series of subordinate groups. It is true that the State is seen as the organ of one particular group, destined to create favourable conditions for the latter’s maximum expansion. But the development and expansion of the particular group are conceived of, and presented, as being the motor force of a universal expansion… In other words, the dominant group is co-ordinated concretely with the general interests of the subordinate groups… in which the interests of the dominant group prevail, but only up to a certain point… No.1586509
>>1586482>Of course, but my point is that it never serves only those interests, nor does it necessarily do so at the expense of everybody else. I feel like you've literally never engaged with anything anarchists have written if this is your takeaway
I'm guessing you've only ever read what marxists say about anarchists nigha? Maybe read lmao
>True, there are of course varying degrees to which people can be incorporated. They may have their interests represented to such a degree that they enthusiastically defend the status quo, or they may only find their position tolerable so long as resistance appears futile, or anything in between. My point is that we can't understand the real historical character of any state without understanding the precise anatomy of its hegemonic coalition, ie which groups are incorporated, in what way, and to what degree. If we obsess over the means by which these coalitions are managed (e.g. democracy vs autocracy), we risk losing sight of who is actually included in them (e.g. workers and peasants vs capitalists and landlords). Holy fuck
So literally all you know about anarchist ideas are specifically what other internet marxists told you anarchists think?
No.1586514
>>1586509>recognizes he talking to an disingenuous utter retard<bites the bait anywayWhy are you like this?
No.1586516
>>1586514Because for a very long time I thought sabocat was actually intelligent
No.1586519
>>1586509Am I not correct in thinking that a core tenet of anarchism is that the state can't be an agent of the working class, and that it can't be an instrument of liberation? If you want to clarify the anarchist position and tell me what I'm missing then feel free. Tbh the framework I just described was developed more as a response to demsocs and leftcoms anyway.
No.1586540
>>1586519>Am I not correct in thinking that a core tenet of anarchism is that the state can't be an agent of the working class, and that it can't be an instrument of liberation?That much would be correct, but it's not because anarchists think the state doesn't serve the interests of the capitalist class, they just don't believe sovereign power can be or is amenable to mass democratic governance because the entire point of sovereign power is not to be amenable to the mass of people, no matter the ideology the government chooses to profess, anarchists also don't believe in a floating signifier called "The People" that can somehow be embodied in a state.
>But what about the fact that the Soviet government called itself socialist!Idealism
>What about the fact that it built industry!?Like capitalist states did as well, so it could compete at an international level?
>What about the fact that they fought the Nazis!?The alternative was the non-existence of their government
>What about the fact that they provided welfare!?!?!?!?!Lmao
>BUT AID IN REVOLUTIONS THOUGH!!!!!11111With strings attached and these nighas were more willing to uphold bourgeois nationalist regimes over anyone to the left of Stalin
>If you want to clarify the anarchist position and tell me what I'm missing then feel freeAnarchists just disagree with the ML (not Marxist, very specifically ML) conception of the state as an empty shell that can take the Sovereign and make it the People's Stick as though states are not in and of themselves an emergent property that seek self-preservation, whilst you can argue capitalists uphold the state to preserve their own existence, you can also easily argue that absolute monarchy were the conditions that allowed for the primitive accumulation of capital outside of Europe's borders.
If anything anarchists more evidently believe in a dialectical relationship between the state and class rule than "Marxists" do
No.1586593
>>1586540>they just don't believe sovereign power can be or is amenable to mass democratic governance >as though states are not in and of themselves an emergent property that seek self-preservationWhere did I suggest that the state doesn't have its own interests? That it doesn't seek self preservation? My entire point is that your conception that states can't be a tool of mass democratic governance is rooted in an erroneous view of how they actually function. As I said no state can ever be truly above and detached from the society which it rules, not without being incredibly fragile and collapsing under the slightest pressure. It must always reflect a cross section of interests sufficient for it to achieve a hegemonic position necessary for its own survival. In other words, its own interests (which are really just the interests of the people who compose the state, ie the bureaucracy) depends on preserving an alliance of various social forces. The real question then is what is this alliance composed of, what are its constituent elements, how they relate to one another and state power, etc. If a state is able to reconcile its interests with those of broad masses of the population, then there is no reason why their interests can't be represented. If their interests are being represented, then they are exercising a real influence in shaping the character of a state, and the state in turn takes on (in content if not in form) an increasingly democratic character. To say then that the state is incapable of mass democratic governance is to argue that the interests of the bureaucracy are inevitably so hostile to those of workers and peasants as to be irreconcilable.
No.1586597
>>1586593>To say then that the state is incapable of mass democratic governance is to argue that the interests of the bureaucracy are inevitably so hostile to those of workers and peasants as to be irreconcilable.Yes
Keep walking this road and you might end up being an actual Marxist at some point
<Uh wow but the heckin bureaucrats did heckin welfare tho!Same nighas literally decided those pennies on the dollar cost too much and imposed neoliberal austerity and regular capitalism in the end lmao
No.1586615
>>1586601They have opposed material interests assuming you're an actual Marxist of some kind
The bureaucracy maintains the sovereign authority the workers are subject to
There's a reason why even in your own flawed conception of socialism a working class somehow continues to exist mysteriously
No.1586618
>>1586615>They have opposed material interests assuming you're an actual Marxist of some kindIn what way? Under capitalism the necessity of profit maximization and tendency of the rate of profit to fall forces the ruling class to place constant downward pressure on the working class, and constantly seek expansion. This isn't the case with bureaucrats. They don't compete with one another or drive each other out of business. They don't need to attract investors and give them a positive return. They don't need to constantly expand profits to prevent the economy from collapsing. So why can they not reconcile their interests with those of workers? If anything the relatively low degree of wealth stratification and championing of policies/programs for which workers had been struggling for decades indicates a relatively high degree of compatibility between their interests.
>There's a reason why even in your own flawed conception of socialism a working class somehow continues to exist mysteriouslyWell technically under socialism bureaucrats are workers insofar as they are employees of state enterprises. I don't consider the distinction to be a class one, but I agree with Trotsky that the ended up constituting a privileged stratum.
No.1586721
why was the other anarchism thread deleted? why bother making effortposts if its gonna get zapped without warning
No.1586753
>>1586721Probs because of all the secretarian shitflinging.
No.1586754
>>1586721If it was the baby leftist thread on "why anarchism is hated on the left," it was moved to the /QTDDTOT/ thread
>>1585964 No.1586758
>>1586754ah ok thanks that makes sense
>>1586753at least it was a slightly different flavor of shitflinging for once, there is currently "what if stalin was dengist?" thread lmao
No.1586836
>>1586618Bourgeois is copeting by rising the labor productivity. They use profit for RND and upgrades to the means of production. If state will continue rising labor productivity, if he does that by dedicating some suplus value to RND, etc, he will hit the rate of suplus value to fall, or show why it will not.
If under your state, workers do upgrades and rise productivity without command from top, so they do not need suplus value, then what is the role of state?
No.1586876
>>1586763>>1586758what makes that thread even worse is that its modifying dengs words to make it seem as if stalin said it.
No.1586891
>>1586876It's state-sponsored gaslighting of the aesthetic ML midwits
No.1586899
>>1586836The disabled still need food.
No.1586907
>>1586899Yes, but they need food as you said, it is labor time, but it is ok if labor time will decline with labor productivity, right? They will get food, it is just made faster. But for means of production, you do not pay for RND in food, etc, you pay in labor time. You can't take a product that yesterday took 1 day to produce, and tell someone to do 1 day of work for it, if today the same product can be produced just in an hour.
No.1586939
>>1586836>so they do not need suplus valueYes they do. Read Critique of the Gotha program. You always need a surplus to expand and maintain capital, and sustain those not engaged in productive labour (retirees, children, the infirm/disabled, non-productive labourers, etc).
>then what is the role of state?The state will continue to be necessary so long as counterrevolutionary states exist, and so long as class contradictions exist.
No.1586976
>>1586939It is critique of that programme, he does not explain how develoment will continue, in long term. 10 workers factory.
1. 8 at factory, 2 doing RND, 2 suplus.
2. 2 at factory, 8 doing RND, 8 surplus.
But 2 day at factory == 8 day RND, how will state handle this?
If you insist state can handle this, explain how. What is the use refering to a Marx quote which does not make this clear, I can send you to Capital III, tendencay of the rate of suplus value to fall.
No.1586987
>>1586939Define the state for me.
No.1587065
>>1586976>>1586976>he does not explain how develoment will continue, in long termHe says explicitly that in the early stages of socialist construction the extraction of surplus will continue, what he doesn't say is how long this stage will last.
>how will state handle this?The rate of profit is not relevant in a socialist economy because it doesn't need to be profitable, at least not in the same sense as a capitalist enterprise does. Marx simply says that in order to service the needs of those who do not or cannot produce, and also to maintain/expand capital, workers will need to consume less than they produce. An increase in the organic composition of capital doesn't change this, it simply increases the total amount produced in a given unit of SNLT. I also don't see how the presence of a state is relevant here, since this phenomenon would exist in a stateless form of socialism as well.
>>1586976>Define the state for me.A body with a monopoly on the use of force within a definite territory, which preserves the dominance of once class over another.
No.1587069
>>1587065>A body with a monopoly on the use of force within a definite territory, which preserves the dominance of once class over another.Would a series decentralized of workers councils through our a territory count as state in your definition.
No.1587073
>>1587069If they are maintaining the rule of the proletariat against internal and external counterrevolutionary forces, then yes. They would still constitute a dictatorship of the proletariat, regardless of how decentralized and democratic they are.
No.1587085
>>1587065It is not just how long, it depends on orgnization/division of production at the moment, as in the example I've made. In case it is 2, you may not be able to get enough surplus value.
It is rate of suplus value. It depends on the relation between those who make upgrades to the means of production and those who use the means to produce. If there is an entity, who takes the suplus value, then commands those who make upgrades, .. usually this entity is state or bourgeois, it is questionable. If it is workers, they upgrade the means of productions themselves, they do ot need to dedicate surplus for that to themsleves. They do not have the division of producers and enhancers, only in some cases where it can't be abolished.
I'm just curious,
No.1587094
>>1587085>If it is workers, they upgrade the means of productions themselves, they do ot need to dedicate surplus for that to themsleves.How would this not be a surplus? If they going to expand or enhance the means of production, like say, installing a newer and more efficient factory machine, then of course they are still going to have to allocate a surplus to produce this. Some of their labour power would have to go to producing, installing, and maintaining this machine rather than it all accruing directly to the workers themselves. The only issue then is the mechanisms of decision making that are used to determine how surplus is extracted, at what rate, for what it is used, etc.
No.1587117
>>1587094In the example number 2, the workers do not fully and permanently transfer to development of the new machine, the surplus made by 2 workers left at factory, may not be enough. They still need X hours to develop the machine, but they do not do that for surplus value. This in practice, can look as free time activity, it is just an example.
It can't be just one time agreement, the development of machines and upgrades for them is continuous. With time, the number of workers will decline, the number of those who make new machines, will grow. value from machines << value of machines.
I've said at free time, but does not look like there is any choice.
No.1596632
>>1541067Why are US mutual aid groups so incompetent? Another anon was complaining about this in the Burger thread. Is it because of glowie infiltration?
No.1596636
>>1596553>muh definitionDefinitions are crude tools used to settle disputes and get the ignorant up to speed, nothing is actually defined by a definition. We can't strictly define what a chair is, let alone a government. Objects and other patterns are recognised through repeated exposure and usefulness, not precise definitions. Does a node in a network of distributed worker co-ops resemble modern states in that it exhibits a monopoly on violence for some given area? Sure. Yet you've encountered the idea of this distributed network of co-ops enough times that you recognise it as probably being anarcho-syndicalism, and if you called it anarcho-syndicalism then people who are paying attention to the world would know roughly what you meant even if they had some pedantic quibble with framing it as a form of anarchism. "No true anarchist…"
No.1596643
>>1596632Are there mutual aid organisations elsewhere that work better? Serious question, I'm interested in positive examples of it working.
No.1596735
>>1596636Then how as anarchists do we distinguish ourselves to be different from ML's and other communists other than our opposition to that of the state. Should we be against statest way of organizing, ie a politcal party? And before you say this doesn't matter that the distinction between leftist ideologies doesn't matter unless you want to recreate the soviet union under stalin or north korea's, """""communist""""" dynasty, it does matter.
>Does a node in a network of distributed worker co-ops resemble modern states in that it exhibits a monopoly on violence for some given area? But I wouldn't call that a state, the thing about bourgeois democracy is its ability to see bottom up but in reality it is top down. As the rights it gives always implies a higher power to which we are subservient too, and that higher power as the ability to take away our rights when ever it feels like it. And secondly in practice those who only run for office are those who are already well off. Even if well off you have too still rely on funds from your party which means you have to tow their line in order to get elected. And at least in america and I think this is true elsewhere through out the world is that the federal government reins supreme over the local governments.
No.1596797
>>1596735>how as anarchists do we distinguish ourselves to be different from ML's and other communistsAnarchists are not a clear political tendency. The words anarchy and anarchism have been thrown around so much there is no clear definition in contemporaneity. Some anarchists are closer to ML's socdems or liberals than they imagine, others are closer to Titoists or even Khmer Rouge.
IMO historically the best elements of anarchism in practice have not been so much about avoiding "authoritarianism" (asserting proletarian dictatorship) but opposing ML (socdem) counterrevolutionary opportunism whitewashed as "temporarily necessary".
>Should we be against statest way of organizing, ie a politcal party?Obviously. Yet non-parliamentary anarchist vanguard parties-in-all-but-name (ie: Dielo Truda, Appelism) are just as valid (and possibly more valid depending on who you ask) as a loose confederation of direct action affinity groups.
My advice: don't think about "how to be a good anarchist", think about how to globally smash the State and the capitalist mode of production so hard that they never revive.
No.1597126
Anybody know what happened to Enough14?
No.1597193
>>1597126Their socials are gone too, maybe they got caught up in some repressions, who knows. where they american? I don't remember.
The Simplest Way to Burn a VehicleIn light of the actions that happened last month, I wanted to encourage everyone to revisit this (
https://scenes.noblogs.org/post/2023/04/27/minimizing-dna-traces-during-riotous-moments/) post. Many of the points made about riotous moments apply to clandestine action as well.
If the people at 890 Memorial Drive intended to burn the vehicles, it was not a good idea to smash windows. Not only does this increase the risk of leaving DNA, breaking a window is very loud and likely to attract attention from passerby — which is exactly what interrupted that action, according to police. As demonstrated in this video, a firestarter cube, placed directly on a front tire (or the rear tire on the same side as the gas tank), is sufficient to assure the destruction of the vehicle. Once lit, it takes about five minutes for the firestarter to fully ignite the tire, which is plenty of time to leave the area unnoticed in most cases. Firestarter cubes can be purchased or racked at any grocery store. Cottonballs covered in vaseline can also work as a firestarter.
I’m not sure how long of a time-delay the people who burned the motorcycles were aiming for. It seemed like they used delays that were not sufficiently tested, which resulted in at least one failed incendiary device being recovered. Unless it was important to have a longer time-delay, I think that placing firestarters directly on the tires would have worked better. This method is much less likely to leave DNA traces because there is no need to construct an incendiary device or to carry accelerant at all. This is the beauty of targeting vehicles with rubber tires! Fuel tanks can be punctured or the hoses that run from them cut for another source of accelerant.
Incendiary devices with long time-delays are better suited to heavy machinery with treads, or to structure fires, so I encourage everyone to keep working on their designs! But in the meantime, let’s not overcomplicate things. I’d like to issue a friendly challenge to all individuals and AGs in the movement to take a little break from internet discourse, get outside, and set some shit on fire!
Don’t forget to take all reasonable precautions to minimize DNA evidence. And please be careful about surveillance footage, although avoiding it completely is almost imposssible in Atlanta.
Minimizing DNA Traces During Riotous MomentsIn our experience, most of us in North America aren’t in the habit of thinking very much about DNA traces. Information about how DNA traces are created or prevented is limited to several myths that are passed around. That said, you can be pretty certain that whenever arson is involved, a DNA forensics team will be involved too. For example, an arrest was made recently for a Jane’s Revenge arson after DNA was recovered at the crime scene. We want to briefly summarize some practical considerations. By arming ourselves with some preparation and an accurate understanding of how DNA is transferred, it is possible to drastically limit the amount of DNA we leave behind. Although DNA is something we should always keep in mind when planning our participation in a riotous moment, we don’t want people to feel overwhelmed by this information. Actionable knowledge empowers us to avoid the dual traps of recklessness (acting as if DNA doesn’t exist) and immobilization (as if leaving traces and their analysis in a laboratory is inevitable).
As noted by DNA minimization protocols in the CSRC Threat Library: “We are constantly shedding DNA in various forms; skin cells, hair, saliva, blood, and sweat are all sources of DNA, and unlike fingerprints they can never be reliably removed from an object once contaminated. DNA minimization protocols are intended to enable the manipulation of objects without leaving DNA traces on them. As you would expect, these protocols aim to eliminate skin cells, hair, air-born saliva particles, blood and sweat making contact with the objects. The chemical destruction of DNA is often also involved.” To prevent or at least significantly limit leaving DNA traces, it is necessary to wear new gloves, a face mask, a hair net or, even better, closed headgear (e.g. a swimming cap) and washed clothes with long sleeves and pant legs to cover as much skin as possible.
In the context of a riotous moment, there are several things to prepare for:
Either smash it or burn it – not both. Smashing something can sometimes involve a lot of contact with the object, which risks transferring DNA traces to the object in question (especially if you have to climb onto it). Sustained fire will destroy DNA traces, but for an object that is first smashed and then burned this is no guarantee; the parts of the object that have been touched may not be sufficiently heated by the flames to destroy all traces. In the context of a riot, this means that people with incendiary intentions should try to take initiative early, before people with smashy intentions hit up a given target. A scenario that is less than ideal: a crowd smashes up a car, perhaps someone touches the car with gloves that have been worn many times (and so have accumulated DNA on them) or cuts themselves on the broken window, then a few minutes later someone torches the car. An ideal scenario: the car is burned first, which requires no smashing – either an accelerant bottle is placed under the front tire (faster, under a minute) or firestarter cubes are placed on the front tire (slower, about five minutes). It is sometimes necessary to break either a window or a door to gain access to a building, but machinery and vehicles can be burned without any smashing by positioning accelerant in the right location.
Wear new impermeable gloves which you’ve never previously touched, and put them on last once you’ve already changed into black bloc. This is because you want to avoid any skin, hair or sweat on the outside of the gloves, which could then be transferred to any objects you touch. Always handle tools that you are bringing with such a new pair of gloves, even if you don’t plan on ditching the tools. Take care that the tools you are using, and especially the projectiles you are leaving at the site, have been free of your DNA from the beginning, and transport them carefully. Dishwashing gloves are excellent for preparing for the action (when standing out doesn’t matter). For during a riot, you can use work gloves that have a thick impermeable coating on the palms and fingers. Have an extra pair that you can change into in case you mistakenly touch your face or something similar.
If you’ll be using a hammer, practice breaking windows in a controlled environment before the heat of the moment. Blood is a very obvious source of DNA to even the most incompetent investigator. The main thing is to make sure that your hand or arm never passes beyond the window, which requires that you generate force from the wrist rather than the elbow or shoulder. A quick wrist flick generates sufficient force with a properly weighted hammer.
Be careful to not have anything that can fall out during the ruckus – closed zippers are your friend. Be especially cautious if rummaging through bags or backpacks.
Any clothing used during the riot should not be recovered by the forensics team if it can be avoided. The days of leaving a giant heap of black hoodies in the middle of the street should come to an end – clothing will generally have DNA traces on it. Ideally, you would take clothing far enough away to be able to dispose of it properly (either burn it or put it somewhere where if it is found, it won’t be considered as related to the riot). A judgement call will be required when deciding whether to try to carry the clothing far away or whether to hide it somewhere on your dispersal route. If searched, black clothing may be enough to lay charges but is unlikely to result in a conviction by itself. Any identifiable clothing or other items in the bag could be more incriminating, so you’ll need to assess the risk of a bag search and weigh it against the goal of keeping your rioting clothing out of the hands of the police. Objects that cannot be concealed in a backpack (like large shields) can be hidden, or coated with bleach (which has around 10% sodium hypochlorite – see further reading) or burned with accelerant that is placed on the exit route ahead of time (in plastic bottles that will burn, not in a jerry can).
Don’t use tape to construct firework molotovs. Tape is a magnet for DNA. Rather, use plastic zip-ties to secure the firework to the bottle. Ideally there should be two fireworks for redundancy, to minimize the likelihood of an unexploded molotov being recovered. Moreover, take DNA minimization precautions when constructing and transporting the molotovs (again, see further reading). This is especially important if they have to be ditched before being used. Fireworks on their own will likely be equally effective at keeping police at bay without risking the same level of repression that molotovs entail – care should also be taken to not leave DNA traces on firework casings. Traditional molotovs (using a glass bottle) need to hit a hard surface to shatter and so are unreliable when thrown inside of buildings. For example, at the site of the first Jane’s Revenge arson, DNA of three individuals was found on an unexploded molotov, the window glass, and a lighter (criminal complaint available here, use Tor Browser).
For further reading, see Strategies for Countering Police Access to DNA Data, and the DNA topic at CSRC.
No.1601248
>>1601238Rest In Power comrade.
Do you have the video of the two golden dawn pigs executed in retaliation by 'The Fighting People's Revolutionary Powers'? I lost it with new hard drive. It's definitely on twitter if anybody has an account there.
No.1616803
>>1573158bumping for this
No.1617517
>>1617089Post it in
>>>/dead/, mods don't dare go there.
No.1635904
>>1617089Don't worry comrade, anarchism i.e. communism will come after socialism
No.1648722
>>1635799It conveniently ignores the opportunism of Marx.
No.1649271
>>1552594he was right though
No.1649426
>>1541661Society of the Spectacle is really good. Situationist texts are still very relevant. We're you reading it expecting anarkiddie drivel like the immortal MLoids of leftypol primed you for?
No.1649443
>>1649440>Anarchism is ineffective when facing an organized state militarywhat about the zapatistas in chiapas mexico?
No.1649445
>>1649440>bumps the thread to try an start arguments like an autistic faggotfanks fam, i forgot this thread existed.
No.1649463
>>1649443Zapatistas are based and their (now-frozen) conflict was somewhat successful. That said, there are some points which I think are worth noting:
1994 Uprising - they were contained by the Mexican army, although not able to be destroyed, leading to a ceasefire after 12 days.
This really isn't a bad outcome, seeing as it was highly asymmetric (outnumbered 10:1, or according to the EZLN, 20:1) and resulted in wins for Mexican civilians in general, but on the other hand, it was a failed occupation, driven out of all towns within a week, and the state they attacked was not prepared, so as far as facing a state military goes, they were not effective in that uprising, regardless of how awesome and respectable it was.
That uprising resulted in them being granted rights to self-government and autonomy (similar to Cherán later, IIRC), so after then, they haven't been facing an aggressive organized military invasion. I don't mean that to trivialize agitation from outside forces that I assume they're facing, but it is outside the scope of this discussion.
>>1649445vid
No.1650549
>>1650326How would understanding the Makhno reference change the message?
No.1650553
>>1649440authority is delusion when operating outside the legality of the state
No.1650663
>>1649463> they haven't been facing an aggressive organized military invasionWhile this is somewhat true, I think the constant harassment and varying degrees of aggression they have suffered almost constantly since 1994 by the army, paramilitary groups funded by the state and cartels is overlooked and makes the perseverance and expansions of the zapatista autonomous zones even more impressive.
I also think it's more accurate to say that they themselves "conquered" the right to self-government and autonomy and has defended it ever since. The Mexican state hasn't given them jack shit and when the Mexican "left", lead by AMLO, actually had the chance to do so back in 2001, they stabbed the zapatistas, and by extension all of Mexico's indigenous people, in the back.
But yeah, in 1994 they weren't succesful in defeating the army and marching to the capital and seizing power, etc., etc.
No.1650827
>>1650663>I think the constant harassment and varying degrees of aggression they have suffered almost constantly since 1994 by the army, paramilitary groups funded by the state and cartels is overlooked and makes the perseverance and expansions of the zapatista autonomous zones even more impressive. Absolutely. With a project so isolated from media in general, it's easy to forget how expansive their territory is, and hard to understand the struggles they face from organized crime and the state.
No.1665657
>>1542931I've been struggling with this concept myself. I feel like we're stuck, with no way forward and none back.
No.1668439
What are some urban examples of anarchist successes? Historical examples welcome.
I am convinced of its viability at a town level, but I can't think of any success stories larger than small communes like Freetown Christiana (Copenhagen) or rural towns.
No.1668483
>>1650794The Battle of Perehonivka
the anarchists had 8,000 men and the whites had 15,000
No.1671374
>>1671163Sub being banned in Turkey as of today:
Well folks, we've just been served notice by the state of Turkey that they will block access kolektiva.media if we do not remove content in support of Kurdish Autonomy in Rojava..
Obviously kolektiva is not going to do that.
Anyhoo check out kolektiva.media if you wanna see what all the hubbub is about. There's a ton of awesome anarchist videos on there.
No.1674359
>>1674328
Just a reminder that tanks celebrate the violent destruction of autonomous proletarian communities by far right bourgeois states
Just in case anyone was wondering why we call these subhumans red fascists
No.1674365
>>1674328
>So with news that the Zapatista drug cartel has disintegrated due to the Mexican government finally putting minimal pressure on the Chiapas region
<I can't read the post
lmao. thanks anon. i needed cheering up and your illiteracy was just the trick.
No.1674452
>>1674328
>Zapatista drug cartel
No form of drugs are allowed on Zapatista territory. That's probably why you don't like them, you love your drugs too much.
>due to the Mexican government finally putting minimal pressure on the Chiapas
They've been under attack by Mexican police and govt-backed paramilitaries since their existence. You're just seething cause M-Ls haven't had a revolution since 1917 lmao
>Are they now going to pretend Hamas is le wholesome queer anarchism to cope?
Hamas is based. Cope and seethe, anglo bitch.
No.1674453
Here's an example of overmoderation. That post and poster got negative replies, they weren't changing any minds. Why not leave it up and let us (the community) respond?
Now that anon probably thinks they have a zinger, and they'll keep posting it. Much like that anon who baited with the Rojava copy-pasta. Vichan doesn't allow duplicate posts, right?
No.1674455
>>1674453>>1674453>Celebrate leftist project being destroyed by a bourgeois state in the leftist imageboard<Get banned<<Zigger anon comes to whine over itFuck off and die fascist
No.1674457
>>1674452MLs in mexico support the zapatistas BTW.
No.1674472
>>1674453Ehh, i personal ban/removal was warranted because it was acting off of false information, which he probably knew was false, for no other reason than to create the impression it was true in order to start secterian arguments.
No.1674475
>>1674473
>liberalism is when you're not a weirdo patsoc reactionary who thinks communism is when you personally are a god-computer brain controlling proletarian SEX plugged into a jar linked up to a computer personally designed by paul cockshott himself, also trans people stopped existing mysteriously
No.1674479
>>1674457I obviously mean the anglo, suburban "M-Ls" who like to play-pretend they are more revolutionary than anyone else. Imagine what kind of megalomaniac one has to be to think they can judge actual, bona fide revolutionaries fighting their governments to establish a socialist region from their townhouse in Surrey.
No.1674481
>>1674480
>collapse of the Zapatistas
Never happened.
No.1674482
>>1674481that's why the thread was saged
No.1674489
>>1674482>that's why the thread was saged… Because it never happened anon.
Why would we want threads based on lies?
No.1674588
>>1674453>Here's an example of overmoderation. That post and poster got negative replies, they weren't changing any minds. Why not leave it up and let us (the community) respond?They were actively spreading disinformation. A lot of people will see the OP on the front page or catalog without actually opening and reading all the replies debunking it.
No.1674594
>>1674359> why we call these subhumans red fascists"Tankies get the drone" - trans /r/Anarchism PMC college kid
No.1674621
>>1674594You mean
>Person I made up to justify why I get hard at seeing proles forming an autonomous community die No.1674634
>>1674588I wasn't talking about the thread, I was talking about the post I quote and reply to here
>>1674452 that has since been deleted.
No.1674652
>>1674452>You're just seething cause M-Ls haven't had a revolution since 1917 lmaoThe August Revolution was a revolution launched by the Việt Minh (League for the Independence of Vietnam) against the Empire of Vietnam and the Empire of Japan in the latter half of August 1945.
The Chinese Communist Revolution was a social and political revolution that culminated in the establishment of the People's Republic of China in 1949.
The Cuban Revolution (Spanish: Revolución cubana) was a military and political effort to overthrow the government of Cuba between 1953 and 1959. It began after the 1952 Cuban coup d'état which placed Fulgencio Batista as head of state and the failed mass strike in opposition that followed.
The Laotian Civil War (1959–1975) was a civil war in Laos waged between the Communist Pathet Lao and the Royal Lao Government from 23 May 1959 to 2 December 1975.
The Nicaraguan Revolution (Spanish: Revolución Nicaragüense or Revolución Popular Sandinista) encompassed the rising opposition to the Somoza dictatorship in the 1960s and 1970s, the campaign led by the Sandinista National Liberation Front (FSLN) to oust the dictatorship in 1978–79.
On 4 August 1983, a coup d'état was launched in the Republic of Upper Volta (today Burkina Faso) in an event sometimes referred to as the August revolution (French: Révolution d'août) or Burkinabé revolution.
No.1675036
>>1675011>deanonymise urselffk off
No.1675098
>>1674652By that logic, any time a new party takes power it is a revolution. Every coup is a revolution. Pinochet coming to power? Revolution. Nazis coming to power? Revolution.
When I say "revolution", I mean it in a marxist sense, you're using a liberal definition of revolution.
No.1680205
>>1675098How were none of those listed events revolutions in the Marxist sense? They were all explicitly communist in orientation and goals, and at least for a time set about socialist construction.
No.1680237
>Anarchism general
More like:
<NEVER WORKED /GENERAL/
No.1681838
>[GREECE] ARSON ATTACK AGAINST THE HOME OF A JUDGEFull title: DAC Claim Responsibility for Arson Attack Against the Home of Judge Elias Kanellopoulos in Greece
“We are guarded by thousands of fears: The fear of being buried alive in a prison, the fear of dying in action, the fear of being left alone without the cheers of the crowd or the fear of being isolated by our own comrades. Overcoming these fears would make us more lucid. Many struggles are built on these fears, they are products of these fears. Fear poisons us; compromise is its toxic fruit. Then, with eloquent words, comfortable theories, convenient long-term strategies, they make sure to embellish the whole humiliation by recommending wisdom and drawing us into political realism. Unfortunately, however, shit, no matter how pink you paint it, is still shit.” – Alfredo Cospito
The Direct Action Cells claim full responsibility for the arson attack on the home of judge Elias Kanellopoulos in the Cholargos area (a suburb in Athens). Our attack is an action of solidarity with the mobilizations of the prisoners in the prisons of the territory. It is also a continuation of the strategy of the personal targeting of those involved in the constant tightening of criminal repression and the repressive management applied in the field of prisons. From the architect of the new penal code, Lambros Margaritis, to the head of the Inspection and Control Body of the Prisons, Spyridoula Presvia, and now to Ilias Kanellopoulos, an appellant seconded to the Ministry of Justice, who was one of the close associates of the former Minister of Justice, Kostas Tsiaras, during whose days the new penal and penitentiary code was created and passed.
Our message is clear. The Direct Action Cells do not forget the people behind bars, the families who are suffering and tormented by the methods of the judges, the police and those prison officers who have the impression that they are untouchable. We do not forget the political prisoners who are paying the price for their choice of joining the revolutionary struggle. The explosions outside the homes of those who, in one way or another, choose to make the lives of prisoners a nightmarish reality, brings home, even if only on a symbolic level, the combative reality of the permanent anarchist threat.
As we previously stated, following the attack on the home of Lambros Margaritis:
“We are not finished with this particular issue. For us, any attack on the rights of prisoners that were won through painful struggles is taken very seriously, and in this regard we will try as hard as we can to keep it high on the priorities of the militant formations acting within the combative movement. We call on them to become a shield of protection for the rights of political prisoners in the prisons and to target those directly responsible for this anachronistic penal code that takes us back many decades.”
For months now, hundreds of inmates in dozens of prisons across the country have been mobilizing with a series of demands against the new penal and prison code, as well as the recent announcements of a new revision of the previous code that was made by the former government. The legislative changes have resulted in the deprivation of liberty for even longer periods of time, the separation of loved ones and the loss of already scarce leave licenses, the extension of the exemption regime to larger groups of prisoners, while the state is introducing an increasingly harsh requirement of submission and repentance before the inquisitors of the judicial councils. The tightening of criminal legislation and the prison code has specific objectives. The satisfaction of the audience of the law and order doctrine which feeds the New Democracy party with votes. The increasing enslavement of prisoners either as collaborators of the police, or as victims in the net of the para-judicial circuits of the big lawyers who are in direct alignment with the government of New Democracy and who, with the corresponding remuneration, hold in their hands the key to release by exploiting the legal windows on which the corresponding amount of money is written.
In a situation where individualism, resignation and the logic of capitulation are gaining ground, there are examples of struggle that, with their deafening dignity, disrupt the legality of subordination (often with a corresponding protest version on the outside). The intense hunger and thirst strikes of the political prisoners Dimitris Koufontinas, Yannis Michaelides, Thanos Hatziangelou, the 11 Turkish fighters of the Popular Front, Alfredo Cospito, the dozens of hunger strikes of solidarity, and a series of prisoners’ resistance movements throughout this period show that even in very difficult conditions the battles that build barricades of resistance are not wasted but necessary and imperative.
We consider it our duty to take a stand, through practical solidarity, in the war raging on the prison front. To target the architects of the legislation that dismantles the already scarce rights of prisoners. The cartel of judges who extract payment from the scum at the top of the social pyramid, while the impoverished workers and the declared enemies of the system suffer at its hands. The wardens, sergeants and the henchmen of the prison regime who remain the stooges and proxies of the minister of the day and attempt to intimidate the prisoners and break their morale.
The fear Kanellopoulos felt when he jumped out of bed at the sounds of the explosion and saw the fire from his balcony. It is a small cost of the other side of the psychological battlefield in which he takes an active part as a cog in the state bureaucracy that strangles people in the name of the law. We say this to be clear. The transfer of fear into their camp is a necessary condition if we are to talk about militant struggle in the present day. No more hollow words, no more misery, no more academic blurring and false content. There is a clear and absolute distinction that clears up the confusion around us. Anyone who decides to risk their freedom in the name of freedom is our ally. Anyone who talks too much without saying anything is at best worthy of our indifference.
Solidarity to those persecuted for the comrades case, Kostas Dimalexis, the D.S. and R.Z.
Solidarity and complicity with Francisco Solar and Mónica Caballero. Solidarity with all political prisoners fighting for subversion around the world.
Honor forever to the revolutionary communists of the Popular Front – Harika Kızılkaya, Burak Agarmış, Özkan Güzel and Erdoğan Çakır: Because the passion for a new way of life cannot be suppressed. If it is crushed a thousand times, it will be reborn from the flames a thousand and one times.
To defeat the fear instilled by the system through repression to render us inactive.
To build with actions the permanent threat.
Direct Action Cells
Source:
https://athens.indymedia.org/post/1627619/Translated by Nae Midion for Abolition Media
No.1682308
>>1680738>The zones (ACGAZ) and the regions (CGAZ) are governed by the towns, they must be accountable to the towns and must find a way to meet their needs in Health, Education, Justice, Food and those that arise due to emergencies caused by natural disasters, pandemics, crimes, invasions, wars, and the other misfortunes that the capitalist system brings.
>Fifth. – The structure and disposition of the EZLN has been reorganized in order to increase the defense and security of towns and mother earth in the event of aggressions, attacks, epidemics, invasion of companies that prey on nature, partial or total military occupations, natural catastrophes and nuclear wars. We have prepared so that our towns survive, even isolated from each other.
>Also, as will be seen, this new stage of autonomy is made to confront the worst of the Hydra, its most infamous bestiality and its destructive madness. Their wars and business and military invasions.SO it seems they are restructuring into more self-sufficient organisms with a larger focus on armed self-defence. Am I reading that right?
No.1682515
>>1682308So they're basically getting smashed?
No.1685488
Does anyone here have experience with consensus-based decisionmaking in organizations? Does the threat of a single person blocking discussion cause as much dysfunction as it sounds like?
No.1685500
>>1682515>So they're basically getting smashed?they're responding to the threats of loggers and narco-mafias (which have gained massive power over these years) with creating this fast-movable response-group/military structure, it seems. I didn't read anything like you say.
>>1685488>Does anyone here have experience with consensus-based decisionmaking in organizations? Does the threat of a single person blocking discussion cause as much dysfunction as it sounds like?no because when you receive an ireconsivable impasse the idea is you split off in to groups who agree. why would you continue to work with someone who does not want to do what the rest you do?
No.1686305
>>1682515EZLN have become politically isolated over the years both in Mexico and abroad. They have few friends and lots of enemies.
No.1686306
>>1686281
No way you have regular sex if you're posting this
No.1686333
>>1686329
>class enemies
Completely delusional.
No.1686346
>>1686329
have sex
No.1686348
>>1686306Just report such nerd shit anon. It's likely only one of our resident schizophrenics.
No.1686715
>>1541067I am a committed anarchist but I want to ask: do you have any criticisms of The German Ideology and Das Kapital from both an individualist and a scientific point of view? Karl Marxapiro has (supposedly) destroyed many of his contemporaries epic style with facts and logic (including Stirner whom I support). I know in particular that Stirner made fun of the dialectical method in Philosophical Reactionaries for example. Has Marx really DEBOONKED Proudhon, Bakunin and Stirner? Or was he unscientific and idealistic himself? I was told that Marx has some Platonist influences but I don't know how specifically.
In short, was Marx really that scientific compared to anarchists and has he really destroyed his opponents arguments in TGI?
No.1686717
>>1686715Sorry if you were asked this for a thousand times, gentlemen, I'm just, uh, dumb.
No.1686718
>>1686715Oh, also, libertarian socialists like council communists, do you have a critique of them too? Many anarchists critique primarily authoritarian socialists so I wanted to know if you have a critique of moderates as well.
No.1686720
>>1686353
Demographically Marxist-Leninists are far more likely to be middle class college kids rebelling against mom and dad than anarchists, who are more likely to be homeless or very poor
It's weird for tankies to promote such a projecting stereotype, probably has to do with the way MLs are also delusional, and racially chauvinist, enough to paint all non-white people in the stalinist brush also
No.1686722
There isn't much difference between Communists and anarchists. Both keep talking big. insubstantial talk about the future (and some past) communist society, only anarchists already hate it.
No.1686723
>>1686720There is no demographic work like that. Why you always lying
No.1686724
>>1686715>committed anarchist Institutionalized
No.1686725
>>1686723Most MLs are literally college students and grads…
No.1686728
>>1686725again there is no work like that
you are talking out your ass
also you understand america isn't the world do you
No.1686736
>>1686724>having a philosophical position>InstitutionalizedOkay, man. If that's what being institutionalized is for you then don't hold any opinions and priorities then and live a passive existence.
No.1686737
>>1686728Time to roll out the other canard
>Ackshually didn't you know all non-white people are stalinists!?Mfs literally fulfilling the exact way I stereotyped them while denying the stereotype
No.1686738
>>1686736- I believe that I can never be certain that the rulers have my best interests in mind.
- WTF, institutionalized much?
No.1686740
>>1686737It's hard to tell whether you pretend to be retarded or are just straight retarded. Why are people that know nothing about the outside world so opinionated?
No.1686747
>>1686745The gulf between us is as deep as the Mariana Trench
No.1686749
>>1686738>I can never be certain that the rulers have my best interests in mind.That's not a position, that would be agnosticism.
Also it was a throwaway gag, I'll refrain from them in this thread in future.
No.1686751
>>1686747Indeed
I work a full time job and you're probably in college for starters
No.1686754
>>1686751You love to to try to elevate yourself by making assumptions about your "enemies". I am sure you're doing fantastic. But nevermind
No.1686758
>>1686754"Enemies"
Don't flatter yourself
No.1686762
>>1686758You are very antagonistic, again, doesn't matter.
No.1686766
>>1686749>That's not a positionYes, it is.
>that would be agnosticismIt isn't agnosticism. Agnosticism is the statement about the possibility of objective knowledge in general. Anarchism is related to scepticism, not agnosticism, even though scepticism may be born out of agnosticism. But anarchism is distinct from the more general scepticism firstly in the subject matter it critiques (authority and subordination) and the fact that the deconstruction of authority motivates the anarchist for political action (if noone is trustworthy then noone should rule or "If the individual is able to govern himself, any external government is tyranny").
No.1686769
>>1686766And before you call me a lolbert, a bourgeois can be considered an authority. So can the police.
ACAB.
No.1687112
>>1686751>I work a full time job and you're probably in college for startersLiterally the same argument as conservatives make. "You'll grow out of communism and become a respectable God-fearing American."
No.1687454
>>1686715Bakunin pretty much agreed with marx on dialectical and historical materialism. his stuff about science is pretty similar to engels and his invisible dictatorship is similar to lenins vanguard, where he differed is in the dictatorship of the proletariat after the revolution. Stirner afiak didn't really disagree with marx either he was kind of doing a satire to show that even from a self interested aristocratic viewpoint communism leads to individual freedom because you and the other are bound together. its more like he is extending and turning inside out a certain narrow interpretation of hegels dialectic that is perceived to be upholding the liberal state to arrive at similar conclusions to marx but from an individual perspective instead of a communal one.
No.1687658
>>1687638there is absolutely no higher calling than the destruction of class enemies, vermin.
No.1687659
>>1687658i thought we were supposed to end class society
No.1687736
>>1687659It's a game of whack-a-mole with "counter-revolutionaries," they'd rather purge everyone who disagrees with them instead of ever admitting that they're wrong. It's politicide instead of genocide, literally not that different if you think about it.
>>1687454>its more like he is extending and turning inside out a certain narrow interpretation of hegels dialectic that is perceived to be upholding the liberal stateDoubt it.
<You have shown me with what “eloquence” one can make all into nothing and nothing into all, black into white and white into black. What do you have against it, when I turn your neat trick back on you? But with the dialectical trick of a philosophy of nature, neither you nor I will cancel the great facts of modern natural research, no more than Schelling and Hegel did.He clearly makes fun of Hegellianism as a whole and gives praise to the scientific method instead. He's closer to Deleuze than Marx, even though Deleuze is influenced by Marx. Both are anti-dialectical.
No.1688073
>>1687736Funny because Deleuze is the reason I said that in the first place. They are still integrating the dialectical method into their analysis, not rejecting it and returning to Kant for example. In that sense they are both dialectical. And its not that Stirner has a narrow understanding of Hegel, its that the general public did at the time of Stirners writing and that was the target of his critique. Its the same with Deleuze. What they both do(and Marx too) is an immanent critique of the popular understanding of Hegel and show how Hegel was correct in one sense, then go further by rearranging the structure of the dialectic to approach it from a individual, anti-humanist, or materialist perspective. So if you are reading Deleuze and take dialectics to be defined as negation then obviously Deleuze is not doing dialectics, but if you take dialectics to mean the relation between substance and subject then Deleuze sounds exactly like French Hegel with a modern understanding of physics. For Hegel identity comes first because hes talking from the perspective of society, but for Deleuze difference comes first because hes talking from the perspective of matter. This is because Deleuze wants to explain where novelty comes from and shows how it arises from difference, where Hegel wants to show how identity is preserved so comes from the perspective of recognition. They are complimentary not exclusive.
No.1688322
>>1680237>NEVER WORKED /GENERAL/Projection.
No.1706098
>>1688073What's your opinion on analytic philosophy? Is it more "scientific" than continental philosophy? What about the questions of qualia? Can analytic philosophy explain that? What even is analytic philosophy?
No.1706174
>>1706098Analytic philosophy is the rejection of dialectics and return to Kant that I mentioned, also Hume, Descartes etc. Its basically philosophers in the Anglosphere being extremely triggered by Marx so they pretend Hegel never existed so they don't have to deal with the logical conclusion of his thought. I'm not sure if you can even call it philosophy tbh. Its more like circle jerking about how not-hegelian you are and was heavily funded by the british empire and later the americans basically as a direct alternative to Marxism.
Analytical philosophy is basically when, instead of trying to understand what a philosopher is saying and trying to find out what terms mean based on their historical and social context you start rigorously breaking down terms into premises and conclusions and debate whether the author is logically consistent. It comes across as a technique to deny philosophy any ability to change the world.
I saw a thread the other day where someone was arguing that Socrates arguments are weak and because they aren't logically consistent teaching him is just a novelty and there is no real point to understanding dialog between interlocutors or how arguments develop if the arguments are wrong. People kept trying to explain to OP why it was important and he kept circling back to how the argument was a contradiction. To me that is pretty much analytical philosophy, its when you try really hard to miss the point so you don't have to think about things.
No.1706193
>>1706174>>1688073Nice readings and nice posts. Also overthink pod is a solid recommendation.
👍
No.1706497
>>1706174anglo philosophy during the first half of the 20th century was hegelian, but i think there was an concerted effort to remove dialectics from the universities (call me paranoid), karl popper being a leading figure in that regard.
No.1706735
>>1706497Karl Popper was convenient for anti-communists all around. He invented falsifiability as a "feature" of science. Since Marxism deals with societal laws on a scale that you can't reproduce in a lab or posit "falsifiable" theories, the analytical philosophers decided Marxism isn't a science.
No.1706797
>>1706098Analysis is dead - no standards for comparison with reality are allowed now. It's not that analysis is bad and dialectics are in, but that analytical thought is no longer permitted in the liberal world, because analysis would make clear that what we live in is an abomination and they can't let you think ungood thoughts. What they're calling "analytic philosophy" is a bastardization of analysis, philosophy, and any sense someone would hold about the world. It has more to do with German philosophical stupidity than anything. Hilariously, this bastardization of logic begins with Hegel, who has been exported to the Anglo world but we are told this is "new math", "new logic", "super logic" even. The point of Hegel is that you're supposed to figure out that this is a political reasoning and a sort of magickal working, rather than "logic" in the sense that you and I would assume exists (assuming you have a brain and aren't actually fucktarded). Hegel isn't saying that this is a description of natural science, but that you can do this and that if no one has a mind to stop you, you can get away with it. It isn't until total retards like Popper come in that philosophy is dead, and then Wittegenstein solves philosophy by finishing the work of making it a legal doctrine rather than something pertaining to the world we live in. It's the result of institutions which set out to commandeer knowledge and reality at all of its levels, and we're seeing the results of that now that it can be imposed. You can't pick one "source" for this - it's a project built in concert by people who saw a vehicle for power over the mind and went for it. Goes all the way back to some of the Greeks (who by the way never agreed with each other, if you know anything about Greeks they argue all the time).
>>1706174No one rejects that you can use dialectical reasoning. They reject the woo woo interpretations found in Hegel and Marx because they don't work, and Marx again is expecting that readers are smart enough to see the trap and he's filtering out the people who he doesn't want to keep in his preferred world. Dialectic does not mean what most of you think it means, and certainly doesn't mean what Engels thinks it means. It's a way of shouting "fool, fool, fool" at people they want to die. Best method you can make to kill lots of people really fast - make it illegal to say no to them.
At present, any theory of knowledge worthwhile could only exist outside of the Academy, for what good that will do. It won't get far. It's a sad fate of humans that the institutions won and have this hammerlock on the mind. It's gone on for too long. The destruction of the past two generations is only the beginning of something much worse. We're already seeing what happens when the last generation familiar with the concept of a free society is dying, and those who remain of that generation are the bastards who kicked down anyone decent for a spot on the lifeboat. It's all so disgusting. What a failed race. Maybe people in other parts of the world can salvage this. White people are fucking done, just fucking done. I don't think anything in the world will stop this though. The rest of the world just held on to recognizably human qualities for a little longer, weren't fucked up by this mind virus as badly, but it's already making its inroads and holds a knife at the throats of world leaders.
Maybe something will happen, and of course there's a "secret world" of people selected to live, who haven't been poisoned or made to indulge in this nonsense. They're pulled aside and given something resembling an education, and of course, once they're "in", they know to never say anything to the losers. That's really what Germanic philosophy creates - the endless intercine war. Why anyone allowed these assholes to say anything, I do not know. But, if not them, the same rot would have arisen elsewhere. There's plenty of faggots in the world who will do this.
Ultimately the truth is in the world, and out of necessity people are holding to what truth in the world they can, in spite of the institutions. This has led to some haphazard, makeshift solutions to keep knowledge going on, though it is constantly disrupted and destroyed, and it's difficult for dessicated and poisoned people to resist against this lockout, this Germanic siege that has always been their fantasy.
>>1706735"Falsifiability" is a bullshit feature in the first place. By Popper's logic, nothing can be "falsified", using the obvious observation of the black swan example he gives and faults a child could see through if they develop any independent theory of knowledge. That's why they need to poison and torture children until they comply with the institutions, and only then can Popper's filth be taught as "real". During his lifetime, that retard was laughed out of the room by anyone who remembered what reading was. He made a home with the Austrian School fags, and they are fags.
You don't need dialectics or something fancy to prove Popper is full of shit. You merely have to be able to call bullshit on his assumptions about what truth is, which anyone can do. Popper operates on the presumption that a chokehold on legitimate knowledge can be established by assertion alone, and then vows to place said knife at the throat of everyone until they agree. That's the Austrian School and Germanic vision for humanity. They have no other idea. What a disgusting and stupid race.
All of Marx's claims about economics in Capital are falsifiable by the way, by any reasonable standard of the concept. Any claim about the natural world, or a world regarded to be objective and rooted in something material that is not contingent on society's values, is falsifiable. Marx's philosophy isn't falsifiable, but no philosophy including Popper's is "falsifiable" on that basis. Philosophy or some theory of knowledge is a necessary assumption to even speak of falsifying everything. In effect Popper is saying "there is no reality" or a Satanic value where "my will is reality". It's faggotry, and it disallows even the concept that "the system is wrong" - or even acknowledging that there is such a thing as a "system" to behold. It's with these logical "positivist" assholes that we have the beginning of vague aspersions about "the system", instead of what a system actually is.
What Marx's method does is build very elaborate models, and then it's up to the reader to figure out if the models represent reality. It's possible to create a lot of bullshit and aspersions, but this is only possible to a point, and anyone could call bullshit on any part of Marx's claims, which many did. The very fact that Marx's claims in Capital were all attacked made it clear that they were very falsifiable, and many people did make successful attacks on the ideas Marx suggested. Marx was stretching classical political economy to construct a giant reductio ad absurdum of the entire project, and that's basically the end result. If Marx found out that the labor theory of value was depreciated, he'd probably think he did a great job destroying political economy. That's what he does, destroys things - it's called the ruthless critique of all that exists for a reason. He probably thought there were people with an interest in producing something that was a more worthwhile understanding and gave some suggestions, but many at the time could not really get what they were dealing with and the nature of the problem humanity faced.
Marxism isn't a science and shouldn't be confused with science. It's an approach to philosophical problems and only that - and that's really what philosophy does. It doesn't "explain the world" so much as it suggests ways you can fuck with it. The world has largely explained itself, to anyone who is willing to listen to it. The world does not have a mind to tell us what to think or produce ideas ready made for us, and for some insane reason it is impossible for certain people to get that very basic reality a child can figure out independently. But, the world does as it will do, and nothing humans think or adjudicate changes that. The real origins of anything that describes the world would be described with science in the genuine sense, rather than "The Science" or institutional chokeholds on science. The philosophers may at best give some guide on how to co-opt knowledge from the world and write books about it, as humans must do this to retrieve truth from the world and their senses beyond the most basic level.
Ultimately the failure of philosophy is humanism, and this assertion - made for entirely spurious reasons - that "real thought" can only begin with the human subject, without any questioning of what a "human" is. This grants to those with a monopoly on the name "human" impunity to create reality and tell us what we are, and we live in their simulacrum. It wasn't always like this, and we didn't have to live in their world, but they've insinuated that they can, and so Obama eventually can say "Yes We Can" - yes he and his allies can do whatever they like and rally the troops.
For my part, I tell everyone to familiarize themselves with what these things are at a basic level, then build their own basis for knowing the world. Keep it secret, write a book if you must and encode it so that they can't do the usual "humiliate him by shouting aloud his diary" routine they do to disrupt our independent sense. Satanics will never stop doing this, but we reassemble our sense of the world anyway. It won't ever "win" but it's far better to see these bastards for what they are then kowtow to any of it.
No.1706801
Anyway, a very simple thought exercise you can do is to ask yourself some basic questions about how you came to think as you did. You have to be able to void the bias of yourself or your ego temporarily, and believe you are a ghost, something irrelevant to the world, and that there are other ghosts like you that you don't necessarily know anything about. That's always the starting point - the point where a child overcomes his primitive existence and asks questions about things that wouldn't make sense to a dumb animal. This is what schooling, particularly Germanic schooling, beats out of kids before they can think, while selecting the thuggish who are eager enablers of stupidity and never had to think about anything, lacking even the curiosity to ask where babies come from. One black pill is that there are many people who aren't really "human" and never believed in anything like that, who never asked anything about what life is and eagerly believed anything "massa" impressed on them with force. The society we live in selected for these people and told them they're "smart", and that any independent inquiry is "retarded", "insane", "gay", or something of that sort. That's the level of intelligence Germanics want - they like their grunts stupid and obedient and hyped up for some more faggotry. It's fucking sad that they especially poisoned us Burgers with their stupid shit and we weren't allowed to have our own ideas about anything, and it doesn't help that some inbred English assholes from Tavistock got in on it.
No.1706805
If you're perfectly fine with the world where "you" don't exist and never had to exist, you're most of the way there. You'll also probably go insane, because to abdicate the "game" we're made to play is taxing, while compliance with the most incredulous fantasies you are commanded to believe is easy. Against enough pressure, no one can maintain their native sense, without breaking down and eventually succumbing to genuine insanity. Some are able to shield themselves for longer and fake normalcy enough to pass through life, but this is becoming harder. Eugenics cannot allow such independent thought, except for the faithful who have always been the most fanatical screamers and love to hold a knife at the throat of every soul that exists.
No.1706807
Anyway the high point of philosophical anarchism is the imperial ideologist Herbert Spencer, in the same circle as Darwin and Galton. That's really what anarchism is. The anarchist influencers who don't get it are just useful idiots or fags, but most get what they are and why they do what they do, sufficiently enough to guess what they're supposed to say or do at any given time. Anarchism doesn't lead to freedom or "abolishing" anything. It leads to Ingsoc.
No.1706809
As for politics… ultimately political thought comes from somewhere material that is within the social agents, rather than a general force in the world or some thought-form that exists outside of people or is implied by nature. You're really asking a question about psychology and what the human being "is", what constitutes our thought, and why our self of subjectivity is divorced from physical space or material science. Yet, you can study this abstract world just like you would investigate the natural world with science, if you make the necessary caveats. To do so leads immediately to some very unpleasant conclusions about what humans are - and if you think like this, you'll go insane for realsies. That's one of the poison pills of knowledge and conceits about it.
It's why a lot of philosophers just gave up and said "all I know is that there is a world". That's the smartest thing any of them have said in a long time.
No.1709175
>>1563318Autonomism is anarchism but with a bit more Marxist flavouring, or alternatively Marxism, with an Anarchist flavouring.
Autonomism is associated with expanding the definition of labour to include the unwaged (thus there are some crossover with Marxist-Feminism). Autonomists are also critical of unions and parties as being too abstract and tending to side with capital in the final analysis.
Autonomism sees Labour as the true power of the world, but unlike more orthodox Marxist organising would take this to a logical praxis whereby decisions about work and production are taken by workers themselves.
Short autonomist text
https://newmultitude.org/what-how-and-how-much-to-produce-1979/ No.1709372
>>1709175>Autonomism is anarchism but with a bit more Marxist flavouring, or alternatively Marxism, with an Anarchist flavouring. Like communization? How is it different?
No.1709409
>>1708587just pick a strategy that works. theres no ideologically right strategy. if it works do it. if it doesnt work don't do it. simples.
No.1714809
>>1709372>How is it different?It's automatic.
No.1714958
>>1649440>Anarchism is ineffective when facing an organized state military. Prove me wrong by listing counter-examples.this isn't the reason for anarchist military failures. anarchists failed because
>they are always less popular than they think they are and eventually the local people get tired of their bullshit and stop supporting them>they try to make military warfare anarchic and this means their soldiers opt out of following ordersthere are many cases of unconventional organized guerrillas slaughtering and raping an organized state military. too many to name actually.
No.1714971
>>1649440In Spain, anarchism lost cause some cucked out and cause other parties didn't let them carry out the social revolution. That would have opened fronts inside francoist territory.
No.1715121
>>1714995An anarchist counter-intelligence organization isn't that hard to understand, the Makhnovists had the Kontrrazvedka. Anark addresses this in 'Constructing the Revolution' at around 29:33
No.1715123
>>1714963>I need food>I like making food>I eat foodTrue anarchist scholar
No.1715209
>>1715159
Ah yes the Republicans failed because the ANARCHISTS betrayed everyone else lmao. This is a profoundly stupid assertion when you actually know what really happened, the Marxists spent more time destroying real workers movements and trying to appease Moscow with useless non-strategic battles instead of actually trying to win. Anarchists were recognized as one of the most proficient fighting forces during the war, and had they taken their rightful place as the head of the revolutionary cause, Franco at the very least would have had more of a challenge than whatever the dumbfuck tankies were doing.
The Republicans lost the war not because of Anarchists refusing to cooperate with other leftwing forces but because the Anarchists cooperated too much. The Anarchists, out of some misguided sense of a popular front, foolishly trusted the Marxists to do anything than what they had been doing for the past 70 years.
There is only one way for the common people to move forward into the future, and it is not with fucking marxism, especially not stalinist national-socialism.
No.1715212
>>1715209the republicans and anarchists lost because franco had a better strategy and way more equipment. thats literally it.
>Anarchists were recognized as one of the most proficient fighting forces during the warlole we all know thats not true
No.1715215
>>1715212>better strategyhmmm i wonder why the republicans had worse strategy, could not possibly have anything to do with who was in charge of strategy (MARXISTS!1!!11!!)
No.1715216
>>1715215nah all sides fucked up. anarchists and stalin cocksuckers included. franco was just the better general and the eye talians and deutschlanders gave him all the weapons. doesnt matter if you have the workers revolutionary spirit or something. teh workers cant stop 230mm shells.
No.1715223
>>1715216idk i just don't subscribe to this fatalistic interpretation of the SCW, don't get me wrong a lot of wars were inevitably going to be won by one side but I don't think the civil war was one of them. The Tankies were very bad at strategy, an amount of bad I don't think would have been replicated by others in the same position. The Anarchists in conjunction with other non-horrible republicans don't even have to win this swift revolutionary victory imo, they could have just held out long enough for ww2 to start and position themselves on the side of the allies.
No.1715230
>>1715223im not saying franco had to win. its just clear the commies and anarchists were worse at strategy than him. anarchists wont stfu about catalonia when catalonia was a big mess which should never be repeated. anarchists need to stop idol worshiping the moronic spanish anarchists and lying to themselves about catalonia. its like their version of stalin worship. anarchists militias had bad organization, no discipline, virtually no leadership, no real strategy and were made up of idiots, street punks, and moron intellectuals like george orwell who fired off like 5 shots and then went home so they could brag about how radical they were. catalonia was shit and even if franco didnt crush it then it would just fail in the long term anyway.
No.1715296
>>1715227lmao this is priceless, so in summation the tankies
>allied with the bourgeoisie>criticized the anarchists for being bourgeoisie>offered a "spirited" defense of property rights>defended petit bourgeoisie>was "the hope" to counter-revolutionaries>became the party of moderateswow and all topped off with a more than biased view of their military efficiency
No.1715300
>>1715230anti-revolutionary propaganda, not buying it
No.1715305
>>1715296the anarchists are the ones who devolved the struggle. The anarchist program only inhibited the development of productive forces. The communists had to right the anarchists' wrongs. The Communists did what was best for the proletariat, both short and long term.
No.1715308
>>1715283like productive forces even mattered. all that mattered was war production and winning the war. neither side was interested in that. the spanish deserve all the oppression for what they did in morocco and the riff war and latin america. i dont shed tears for catalonia or any spaniard scum. why did the left loose? bad strategy bad leadership bad organization and insufficient preparation for war.
No.1715312
>>1715308>like productive forces even mattered.The sectarian anarchist struggle against the development of productive forces was the determinant factor in the rise of spanish fascism. The anarchists were tainted by trotskyism.
No.1715316
>>1715308The left lost because of the anarchists
No.1715318
>>1715312yeah sure because the fascists didnt exist until the anarchists started screwing things up right?
>>1715316the left lost for the same reasons it always lost (bad strategy, bad tactics, no leadership) and as usual you just blame each other rather than all take responsibility. franco won the the civil war. you can blame anarchists and anarchists can blame the reds but ideology isnt why the war was lost.
No.1715322
>>1715318I will continue to blame those who lost the war for the loss of the war
No.1715323
>>1715322you are brain damahed if you think an idea (anarchism/marxism) lost the war. strategy and tactics decide wars not leftie sectarianism.
No.1715327
>>1715323yeah, and strategy/tactics are directly affected by ideology… Ye have little faith in sectarianism
No.1715454
>>1715308>why did the left loose?Reposting an appraisal by the Friends of Durruti as it was all falling apart:
>The vast majority of the working population stood by the CNT. Inside Catalonia, the CNT was the majority organisation.>What happened, that the CNT did not makes its revolution, the people’s revolution, the revolution of the majority of the population? What happened was what had to happen.>The CNT was utterly devoid of revolutionary theory. We did not have a concrete programme. We had no idea where we were going. We had lyricism aplenty; but when all is said and done, we did not know what to do with our masses of workers or how to give substance to the popular effusion which erupted inside our organisations.>By not knowing what to do, we handed the revolution on a platter to the bourgeoisie and the marxists who support the farce of yesteryear. What is worse, we allowed the bourgeoisie a breathing space; to return, to re-form and to behave as would a conqueror. >Revolutions cannot succeed if they have no guiding lights, no immediate objectives. That is what we find lacking in the July revolution. Although it had the strength, the CNT did not know how to mould and shape the activity that arose spontaneously in the street. The very leadership was startled by events which were, as far as they were concerned, totally unexpected.>They had no idea which course of action to pursue. There was no theory. Year after year we had spent speculating around abstractions. What is to be done? The leaders were asking themselves then. And they allowed the revolution to be lost.>Such exalted moments leave no time for hesitancy. Rather, one must know where one is headed. This is precisely the vacuum we seek to fill,since we feel that what happened in July and May must never happen again.
>We are introducing a slight variation in anarchism into our programme. The establishment of a revolutionary Junta.>As we see it, the revolution needs organisms to oversee it, and repress, in an organised sense, hostile sectors. As current events have shown such sectors do not accept oblivion unless they are crushed.>There may be anarchist comrades who feel certain ideological misgivings, but the lesson of experience is enough to induce us to stop pussy-footing.>Unless we want a repetition of what is happening with the present revolution, we must proceed with the utmost energy against those who are not identified with the working class.TL;DR the leadership was caught unprepared and hesitated at the worst possible time. They advocated platformism with a disciplined anarchist vanguard, the same conclusion Makhno reached.
No.1715483
>>1715454Yet again the main problem with Anarchists is that they do not go far enough with their ideology, iirc Kropotkin said something like that too.
No.1715490
Quick question, if Marxism is better than Anarchism why hasn't it… worked? I would be pretty on board with this whole state socialism thing if it werent so utterly incompetent. I mean, praxis proves me right time and time again no matter how much it makes sense for the opposite to happen!
Really, the difference between a militant anarchist organization imposing its anti-fascist, anti-racist, and anti-capitalist program upon a liberated territory and the same being done by a professional state-socialist army and/or police force, is simply, that the anarchists do it better. No senseless killings, no ethnic cleansings, only real revolutionary action taken by the masses.
Idk exactly why, idk exactly how, but time and time again it has been shown that anarchists are just better.
No.1715493
this markus guy is both based and a fucking pyscho.
No.1715495
>>1715490>Quick question, if Marxism is better than Anarchism why hasn't it… worked?define "worked" if you want to have this conversation
also, notice the slow transition from the anarkkkoid state of mind to a run of the mill anti-communist like ben shapiro or any of the faggot debatebro liberals who bring up tired strawmen about marx, the soviet union, etc
No.1715500
>>1715495>notice the slow transition from the anarkkkoid state of mind to a run of the mill anti-communistI wouldn't say it was that slow, I AM a run of the mill anti-communist (assuming you of course recognize communist as meaning marxist) just as I am a run of the mill anti-fascist. Being a run of the mill anti-marxist is a normal position to have, because almost everyone recognizes marxists as horrible people, me included.
No.1715502
>>1715500>I AM a run of the mill anti-communist (assuming you of course recognize communist as meaning marxist) just as I am a run of the mill anti-fascistthat makes no sense, anti-communism is inseparable from fascism
No.1715504
>>1715498>>1715500maybe you should just calm down a bit. A tiny bit. A very tiny tiny bit. A very tiny tiny incy bit.
No.1715506
>>1715503??? so you're just a fascist?
No.1715507
>>1715506Im not going to acknowledge your batshit "anti-marxism is inseparable from fascism" statement with a real response. Its stupid, anyone can recognize its stupid, you know why everyone thinks your stupid, just have the debate in your head with yourself
No.1715509
>>1715507>>1715500>>1715498noticing a trend of the same flags always making utter dogshit posts lmao
No.1715516
>>1715515anarchist thread derailed by anarchist defending anarchism, oh ok
No.1715534
>>1715531like bourgeosiie and proletariat. they are dialectically opposed. one must triumph over the other
No.1715617
based schizo
No.1716749
say you're living in an anarchist commune
and there's this guy in your commune who doesn't flush the toilet after he shits. telling him to flush doesn't help, he just doesn't care
how would the commune deal with this situation?
No.1716754
>>1715490>I would be pretty on board with this whole state socialism thing if it werent so utterly incompetent.No, you'd be dead because you slightly disagree about how to do communism.
No.1718171
Average anarchist theory:
<Juan and Pedro came to age at the precise age to start working to survive. They were sons of workers, who died not having the opportunity to acquire formal education to free them from the chains of salary. But Juan was spirited. He had read in newspapers how some men, born from humble beginnings, had come to be, with work and thrift, become financial kings, and dominate, with the power of money, not only in the market place, but in the world. He had read thousands of anecdotes of the Vanderbilts, the Rockefellers, the Rothchilds, the Carnegies, and all of those whom, according to La Prensa, and some school reading books, with the stupidities of our contemporary childhood, are abreast of world finances, not because of anything else,-oh, despicable lies-but the dedication to work and the devotion to save.
<Juan tenaciously threw himself into his work. He worked a year, and found himself as poor as the first day. At the turn of the following year, he found himself in the same circumstances. He kept on working more, without dismay, without rest. Five years went by, and he found that, at the cost of sacrifices, he had saved some money-not too much. To save those coins, he had to minimize the expense of his nourishment, lowering his strength, dressed in rags, with the torment of hear and cold weather, his system wore out too; he lived in miserable shacks, and the unsanitary environment contributed to his weakness. But Juan kept on saving, saving money at the cost of his health. For every penny he was able to save, he lost strength. So in order to not pay rent, he bought a lot, and built a small home. Later, he married a young girl. The court and the priest took away a big chunk of his savings, saved with so much sacrifice. Some years passed, but work was not steady, debts started to stress poor Juan. One day one of his children got sick, the doctor did not want to assist him since he had no money, and in the public dispensary, he was given such poor attention that the poor child died. Juan, however, did not give up. He would remember the writings he had read about the famous virtues of being thrifty and other foolishnesses of the kind. He had to be rich because he worked so hard, and saved. Didn’t Rockefeller, himself, Carnegie and others, before millions, drool unconscientiously? Meanwhile, basic necessities were costing more, making him worried. Groceries were costing more, and extremely limited the home of the innocent Juan, and, much to his concern, bills were increasing, and he could not save a penny. To add pain to injury, the owner, that morning, fired him from work. Occupying their places were new slaves, who, like the ones before, would dream with accumulated wealth, by hard work and savings. Juan had to pawn his home, with the hope to keep his dreams, but he was going down, sinking without help. He could not pay his debt, and had to leave it at the hands of the sharks, all the product of his sacrifice, that small lot saved for with his blood. Obstinate, Juan wanted to save more, but it was in vain. This deprivation to which he subjected himself, so he could save, the hard work he labored the best years of his life, had destroyed his vigor. Everywhere he asked for work, he was rejected, and there was no work for him. He was a machine to produce money for his employer, but very worn out. Old machines are seen with disdain. And, meanwhile, Juan’s family suffered hunger. In the dark shack, there was no heat, no covers to protect them from the cold; the children plead for bread with fury. Juan would go out everyday to look for work, but who wanted to hire tired old arms? And after walking all the city and the fields, he returned home, where they were waiting, sad and hungry, those loved ones, his wife, children, those loved ones who once dreamt about the wealth of the Rockefellers, the fortune of the Carnegies.
<One afternoon, Juan stopped to contemplate the automobiles passing by, driven by fatty drivers, imagining the satisfaction of having a life without worries. Women chatting happily, and men, flattering syrupy and insignificantly, attending to them with mellifluous phrases that could make other women yawn with boredom if they had not been those bourgeoisie.
<It was cold; Juan shivered, thinking about his family, what they could expect inside that dark shack, that mansion of misfortune. How could they shiver in that cold weather, that very moment; suffering the indescribably torture from famine; how bitter the tears shed those very moments! The elegant parade continued. It was the perfect moment for the rich to show off, just from whom Juan had learned “to work and save,” like the Rothchilds, like the Carnegies, like the Rockefellers. A great gentleman was coming in a luxurious car. His presence was magnificent. Gray hair, but his face looked young. Juan cleaned his eyes, rubbing them, worried to be a victim of an illusion. No, no, his old and tired eyes did not fool him; that great man was Pedro, his childhood comrade. “How much had he worked and saved,” thought Juan, “so he could get out of his misery, and reach such a level, and gain so much distinction.”
<Oh, poor Juan! He has not been able to forget the imbecilic stories about the vampire of humanity; he could not forget what he had read in school books, in what conscientiously stupefies the population.
<Pedro had not worked. A man without scruples. And with great malice, he had become aware that honesty is not a fountain of wealth, so he started cheating his fellow man. As soon as he pooled some savings, he installed a shop and hired cheap labor; so he went up, up. He widened his shop, and hired more help, more and more, and he became a millionaire and a great man, thanks to the many “Juans” who carefully took the advise from the bourgeoisie.
<Juan continued watching the parade of the lazy and the indolent. At the next corner a man was preaching to the townsmen. There were a few people, really, but this orator, who was he? What did he say? Juan went to listen:
>“Comrades,” exclaimed the man, “the time has come to reflect. Capitalists are thieves. Only by bad tricks can one become a millionaire. The poor drop down, working, and when we cannot work anymore, we are fired by the bourgeoisie, as leaving a tired and old horse from service. Let’s bare arms to conquer our welfare and for our families!”
<Juan saw the man with disdain, spit on the floor with anger, and walked to the obscure shack, where his loved ones waited sad, hungry, and cold. He could not let his idea die, that saving and work make the man virtuous. Not even the undeserving, who deserved misfortune from his fellow man, could make the miserable soul educated to be a slave, nor could he recognize his mistake.https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ricardo-flores-magon-voluntary-slavery
<The Mexican people hate, by instinct, authority and the bourgeoisie. Everyone who has lived in Mexico can assure us that there is no one more cordially hated than the policeman, that the word “government” fills the simple people with uneasiness, that the soldier, admired and applauded in all other places, is seen with antipathy and contempt, and that anyone who doesn’t make his living with his hands is hated.Is this just race science again?
No.1718295
>>1718171I am Mexican, can confirm I hate the police
No.1718686
>>1718296The equivalent would be him refusing to shovel the compost from the shitting hole to the shit bin or shit pile when it's his turn to do so this week.
The solution is to get a scat fetishist to join up and have him do it No.1718818
>>1716749your first mistake was living in a commune
No.1718832
>>1716749What the fuck is this question.
I have to deal with this constantly under capitalism literally all the time, the problem is public bathrooms– not even, sometimes familial bathrooms all have to deal with this.
Hell sometimes I piss in the urinal and I don't flush either, getting it is always too high.
No.1718833
@1718831
sanest communist
No.1718834
>>1718831
Objectively wrong, African tribal hierarchies are often not as communal as one thinks, there are cattle economies, with multiple inequalities in it, chieftains, and other hellish class issues. If you hate blacks and judging by your pic there's a 80% chance you do you actually hate capitalism and need to force them into anarcho communism, actually.
No.1718839
>>1718836
>Tell me, what are the dialectics between a mud hut burgeoise and a mud hut proletariat
Apart from the fact that in trade based economies wherein the biggest owners of cattle and resources can gather multiple wives (which contributes to overpopulation rates) and causes much of the negative behavior in these minor societies that you focus on?
By the way posting modern pictures of blacks outside these societies but in the west where there's a completely different group of problems and behavior for them is just objectively in bad taste since it has no relevance, it's just more excuses to hate blacks because le violence lol, when in Africa they're tie them up and burn them alive for doing the same and if no one told you their skin color you'd be going "OMG SO BASED!"
No.1718843
>>1718838
I mean whatever keeps colonialism away I guess, even Hitler managed to stop Italians from fully raping Ethiopia thanks to racism, but when I say force I don't mean colonize, but support what little movements spring up in Africa, if they end up collapsing over and over even after indirect support and solidarity there's not much white people can do for them objectively speaking.
>>1718841
An-com isn't about removal of power inequality or collectivism, it's about the removal of the type of shit that enables the unjust ones or ownership of production that is central to only one divisional group, or the commodification or injunction of social class into that kind of system, all of which tribal Africa suffers from, you also have to differentiate communalism (which again Africa doesn't do) from industrialized communism.
No.1718846
>>1718844
>Marx
Supported colonialism as acceleration actually, believed they would eventually get to socialism too because of it.
>Gramsci
Dear CIA,
I don't care how many liberals or fascists you send my way to try and get me to, I will NOT read Gramsci.
>Guevara
Walked back on his racism around the time of his death sorry.
>that they see race as an objective scale to measure intrinsic privilege.
And the racialist belief that race as an objective scale to measure intellectual privilege is somehow better? I disagree with that liberal notion because black bourgeoisie exist among other things. In a roundabout way you're just playing into that liberal system which is really just based on colonialist rationalism to try and reignite white burden.
No.1718850
>>1718844
>IQ
I thought this was a thing of the past. I can't be expected to debunk autism score every single time someone mentions it, so I'm gonna say autism score is bullshit. It started off as a way to measure which kids in school were lagging behind their peers so they could get extra help and turned into a scale/measure of "intelligence" by neo-phrenologists and racists.
Stop talking about autism score.
Stop mentioning autism score.
Stop validating autism score.
Stop autism score.
No.1718851
>>1718850fucking wordfilter, autism score = I-Q
No.1718869
>>1718851>>1718850Just work with the filters my uygha if I tried to bypass them every time I wanted to say the n word I'd be dead from old age.
>>1718857>[/spoiler]That is not how a single image board outside of 4chan spoilers.>It's asserting that race, biology, and cerebral structures have a connection.Oh yeah the good old epic race realism theory. Gotta love viewing black people in only a local viewpoint from the west and assuming that this small 13% of the population and a few webms from /gif/ showing them getting into disputes with machetes is proof that the lower education rates are intrinsically biological.
The problem with this worldview is the multiple exceptions to these examples that exist once you look past the doomer lens of things.
I'm not saying become a liberal and get ready to hug every black man you meet like that dipshit who got himself stabbed last year, but I am saying look beyond that and you'll see that racial realism falls apart very quickly, especially when it's all just a scam that starts off small and eventually just ends back in old monarchist european racism that goes "blacks are just chimps bro."
>"all men are equal" No one claims this beyond liberals, but you need to gauge which inequalities are fair, and not, and which effects need to be addressed in not just economics or social life, but even as far as space, and how to manage it unless you want to live in hypercapitalism even if a gold comet with enough gold to make every person on earth a millionaire crashes.
>intrinsic oppression structures.And it's important to seek to move past these structures eventually, see the solar economy, if the universe is inherently oppressive, it is mans job to tame it, otherwise we'd all still be chimps. Giving into biology and it's slavery rapidly devolves everyone into nothing but baby raping monsters.
No.1718880
>>1716749Bold to assume that an anarchist commune would have plumbing.
No.1718883
>>1718875
>I lived among blacks in a foreign country with no history of internal colonial oppression.
Again colonialism is not the issue here per se, it can be, but the problems with black people started far before they ever met white people, and it's not just cultural diffusion, but the culture that was placed on them from their own development.
>Sure, there is occassionally the magic nagger who flees the ghetto and everyone thinks he is normal and unsure why people reinforce stereotypes even against media representation.
I'm not talking about some black middle class man. Again you have to look past the western lens, if you focus on how blacks act in the west you're focusing on arguably some of the worst of the worst.
I'm not sure which nation you're talking about it can be Tobago or it can be Poland, so I can't get into specifics, or how big the native or non native black population is and which parts of the culture or not can influence them to act absolutely fucking retarded like a lot of people in the west.
>All the least-influenced people are the one who have lived the least with them and further removed from them
That is true, but I was going to bring up a similar example for why I'm inclined to say it isn't just a black person problem, if you live in a area with just as many degenerate white people like I have it also tells you it's not something intrinsically biological, at least on the level that it can't be changed.
>There will always be oppression as much as there is a will in living organisms
And no one is denying that, but again if you don't address these structures, on an economic, social, and cosmological level, the further humanity goes the more dangerous society becomes, and it gets shakier and shakier, again I gave the gold comet example because solar economy and all these things are things that exist now in theory, but eventually become reality, and if humanity is stuck like this, we're fucked, doomed to be another species gone extinct because we couldn't get past nature and it's oppression.
No.1718896
>>1718892
>Poor whites and lower social classes across all populations I have met have a reaction towards authority and hierarchy
Elaborate on what that reaction is.
>male blacks disproportionately react in ways that are not compatible with society.
Ask them about lgbt and watch them turn fascist in two seconds.
>I think whereas enforcement and selective breeding (as seen in capitalism I mean) could remove these tendencies
Like they tried during slavery? I know that was focused primarily on labor but still you have to realize that as a solution that would require a level of intercellular testing to prove race realism as a thesis correct rather than viewing each micro population of blacks and analyzing them one by one firstly in ways that can identify other problems.
>Why should we abhor inequality
Have you been ignoring my posts throughout this whole thread?
Inequality will exist no matter what, the problem lies in unfair or fair inequality, socialism posits the man who works harder deserves the fruit of his labor, capitalism states because the man doesn't own his tools and is not as rich the contract he entered into an employer with because there was nothing more he could do now means he is not entitled to it. There are differences in inequality brought from non oppressional methods.
>Is this not wishful or even religious thinking?
I'm going to say it, Marx got too autistic over science too many times and we need a little religious and wishful thinking, as well as jihads from time to time in a stable society. Not the religions of now, but taken ideas from them.
>Why not oppress and chew each other instead of idling happily?
Because that's how capitalists think. That's how Luddites think. That's how you create a anti-innovative society that is stuck in the mud and dies there. It's inherently going to not just go nowhere, but collapse on itself. In doing so all it will do is generate a group of people who burn it down.
No.1718897
You also haven't told me which nation you're talking about too, you're actively ignoring large chunks of my posts that don't let me analyze and explain anything you're asking just to go over the same points you want to that aren't as stable as you think.
No.1718901
>>1718857>It's asserting that race, biology, and cerebral structures have a connection. Read a book, specifically this one:
https://download.library.lol/main/2494000/d2fc5f0d4b3f904c7c433b69ed518bbc/Stephen%20J.%20Gould%20-%20The%20Mismeasure%20of%20Man-W.%20W.%20Norton%20%26%20Company%20%281996%29.pdf
>Any logical reasoning test would doSocio-economic status is a better predictor of how well people will do on those kinds of test than "race".
No.1718906
>>1718844
>IQ around 54
A lot of these poor people also suffers from decades of malnourishment, outright starvation, tropical diseases that can harm brain development, etc. You can argue that there are autism score variation between ethnicities but to pick extreme examples like Liberia while ignoring all these contexts are just dishonest
No.1718909
did a poltard just join
No.1718915
>>1718909Kind of, he left before he even got banned and got his posts removed. I don't know if he was a /pol/tard wearing a mask or not, but he certainly went full mask off towards the end when he said
>>Why not oppress and chew each other instead of idling happily?I assume at that point, or at least I like to believe, he realized he was just another 12 year old who still thinks third positional theory is "when you are an epic white guy from that mens cologne commercial and you are strong, le strong man, fuck the weak, so you stab black people lololoolol." and had to step back and self reflect once he realized what he'd done. At least I hope he did if he has any semblance of rationale left.
He seemed to try and use some left wing arguments here or talk about how Che was racist but apart from that as he got talked down to he just sort of gave up and kept repeating the same thing over and over once each talking point he had gradually fell under scrutiny.
Poor guy, I hope some day he gets over the trauma of his 8mile situation of living next to a black ghetto neighborhood and getting called a whiteboy so he actually learns about black people outside western lenses.
No.1719162
>geee how do we prove these uyghurs are bad
<I know, lets post all this gore or CP we have on our drive, this will surelly show how civilized we are and not a bunch of psychopathical subhumans
nazoids are trully a inverior breed.
No.1719169
>>1719162It is clear /pol/ do not send their best here lol.
No.1719172
>>1719162Well a good chunk of zoomer men agree with that unfortunately.
No.1719174
>>1719172>muh gen ZyklonImagine buying into /pol/tard memes.
No.1719176
>>1719172That's irrelevant considering zoomers are pliable to the trend of whatever ideology comes their way. A zoomer professing to 'believe in x' amounts to little more than this 90% of the time, regardless of whatever it is they 'believe in' (and yes, this goes for 'leftism' just as much):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJmvMyptrxo No.1719179
>>1718906"You can be a race realist just don't go too far, bro"
You are hardly different than the person you claim to argue against. A more toned down gradation, maybe, but you follow the same fundamentally flawed premises in certain ways.
No.1719260
>>1719172>>1719162We had this discussion in the thread previously, they do it because to the uninitiated it works, exposure therapy to the worst black people have to offer only creates a negative image, by isolating the worldview to only cherry picked gore of them shooting white old ladies (shouldn't have said the n word by the way klanma, L bozo) they end up planting seeds of resentment for black people. In fact the guy admitted he was racist because of negative experiences with black people, aka anecdotal evidence.
No.1719283
>>1719176This is just the reality of a world that increasingly accepts subjectivity and that has correctly identified that most if not all of political ideology is entirely subjective. People choose their ideology based off of how cool it is now + however much natural empathy they have.
No.1719303
>>1719174>He lacks critical information>>1719176True. I'd say that westoid men in general tend to just pick whatever flavor makes them look the manliest vs what makes them look like a moron. The whole SJWS OWNED thing is just cynical grifters who realize how desperately low a lot of these fag's self esteem is, so they give tiny niblets of lolcowdom to make themselves feel better about being mid.
>>1719260Yeah good luck exposing people to each other in an environment where you can't rap if you're white or play rock if you're black.
No.1719305
>>1719303>Yeah good luck exposing people to each other in an environment where you can't rap if you're white or play rock if you're black.I agree but what the fuck can you do about it then beyond telling them to get over it and look beyond that, it's hard being a chinlet and even harder if you're a chinlet in the hood and you get told to "dance white boy dance, do the fortnite griddy." and your only black friend got shot so you resent them all in the end.
No.1728903
>>1728883he was a new age beatnik schizo who liked moroccan hookers and was obsessed with sufism which he mostly learned about from henry corbain. he was a nambla guy who liked to peg little boys too. ignore this guy he was worthless. actual anarchist occultik sufis should avoid him.
No.1728946
>>1728903>actual anarchist occultik sufisNot a thing. Islam is fundamentally based around the sacredness of stability through rule of law, completely incompatible with anarchism or any other mob rule format. It mandates a nomocracy, something anarchists despise. Also there’s the mildly inconvenient fact that anarchism is a purely western phenomenon
No.1728951
>>1728946whenever will anarchists give up the larp and realize most of their actually attainable goals are not only not mutually exclusive to rule of law and authority, but more often than not complementary to them.
No.1749831
What exactly is dual power in the anarchist sense? For MLs it referred to the provisional government period in 1917 where the soviets actively contested functions of the state and could resist the encroachment of the state by force if needed. Does it make sense outside that specific sort of revolutionary situation? I've seen things like mutual aid referred to as dual power but that's not subverting the state's authority and can coexist peacefully with it.
No.1749851
>>1749831It's creating an alternative to the state which would be necessary in any revolutionary situation.
No.1750046
>>1750041They tend to be sent with communiques and get uploaded to contra-info/news websites and blogs.
No.1750067
>>1728946>we need to spread the anarchism <sorry u cannot be part of our supa elite club kindly fuck off clearly u never read about the islamik thoughts.
>anarchism is a purely western phenomenonwestern anarchism is teh suckage. bakunin? wannabe marx. hes like the goth chick in mean gurls. kropotkin? naisu santa klaus but not a great philosophes. kant take goldman or kropotkin seriously because of the ww1 support. catalonia? it was never good desu
we need to build a new anarchism on a new basis. new anarchism which is occultic and materialist. is anti-humanist nick landian instead of humanist. irrationalist instead of rationalist.
No.1750081
>>1750067>we need to build a new anarchism on a new basis. new anarchism which is occultic and materialist. is anti-humanist nick landian instead of humanist. irrationalist instead of rationalist.Holy based! I always wanted to be part of an esoteric leftist group. Might create one at some point.
No.1750110
>>1750067This shit is so funny cause it makes so clear how so many anarchists end up becoming fascists. You guys have the same irrational idealist beliefs and come from the same strata of lumpen criminals and general refuse, deranged petty-bourgeois types, and your only solutions to everything is some weird moral regeneration combined with retvrning to primitive peasant life
No.1752314
Sewage system how?
No.1763175
>>1752314Former congressmen will take care of that.
No.1763183
wtf is this thread
No.1763184
>>1762632just from that paragraph i can already tell this article will be full retard
No.1763239
>>1763183Its quite self explanatory. Can you not read?
No.1763243
>>1763184>just from that paragraph i can already tell this article will be full retardLiterally what is false or glaringly off about that paragraph?
No.1763577
>>1763184That's the whole article. It's the introduction to a video.
No.1763580
Hey fellow comrads my dad told me to do to bed but im secretly still awake im so cool o7
No.1764622
>>1763580Defying your dad is the rite of passage but few can defy "their" gaberment.
No.1772055
>Los Justicieros, "The Avengers", was an anarchist paramilitary group created in 1920 in San Sebastián, Basque Region, during the years of pistolerismo.
this is just like my marvel movies
No.1774714
We might disagree in many subjects, but we are all in this together, we all fight for the rights of the proletariat against the rich and powerful, against capitalists, fascists and imperialists. As an anarchist, if you fight against those, and you believe in a world of peace, equality, and fraternity for the world then you are a comrade of mine.
Long live the workers movement! Long live all the internacionales, the syndicates, the cooperatives and left movements that fight oppression and misery!
No.1779606
>>1779601No, the soviet union was perfect communism achieved because it makes liberals online mad when I say that therefore it is true.
No.1785637
Can’t stand tankies tbh
No.1808334
>marx was a racist thus his work is invalid
Man I bet there's probably a coal miner out there who doesn't really like gay people so I guess anarchism is invalid. This is dumb, dumb reasoning. It sounds like a republican grasping for straws to defame him since they can't really argue against the reality of economic inequality.
I don't hate anarchism and in fact I really want it to be correct, I just get exhausted seeing how anarchist arguments all drop to high school level the second you leave the realm of anarcho-syndicalism. One dumb one for example is them believing all crime will seize to exist once people have money, as if rich people don't rape.
No.1808341
>>1808334>moneyResources* before someone starts nitpicking thinking that's a "gotcha." And don't tell me they don't argue that crime take, they definitely do.
No.1808352
The more I read early anarchist and communist writers the more and more disillusioned I become. Bakunin was a fucking retard. Marx said he was simply synthesizing French socialism and English political economy to create a scientific socialism. But the French socialists were moronic and the French revolution was a mistake. Everything we've been told about it is a lie. "it was a big revolution of the workers and bourgeoisie against the aristocrats." Lie. This Paris Commune has also been heavily misrepresented which Marx seemed to have realized later in life. We should look at actual indigenous societies that are anarchic or anarchist like instead. Anthropologist anarchists are better than A grade morons like Proudhoun.
No.1808362
>>1808352>But the French socialists were moronic and the French revolution was a mistake. Everything we've been told about it is a lie. "it was a big revolution of the workers and bourgeoisie against the aristocrats." Lie. This Paris Commune has also been heavily misrepresented which Marx seemed to have realized later in life. Please explain your point of view, if possible with a source. That is a big claim to make
No.1808475
>>1808352The final enemy of anarkiddies - functional brain.
No.1808510
>>1808362>Leftist account of the French revolution is wrong The standard leftist history of the French revolution is that it was a class war of the bourgeoisie and the poor against the aristocrats which destroyed feudalism. There isn't a total consensus on what was the biggest cause of the French revolution but this Marxist account has mostly collapsed in the face of recent evidence. There are even historians who argue that a self-conscious bourgeois class never even existed at the time. A capitalist economy was already developing under the monarchy, many nobles and aristocrats were themselves capitalists while many revolutionaries weren't. There were also aristocrats and members of the nobility who held power during the revolution and helped instigate it. Furet argues there wasn't a single cause for the revolution. Since there was no unified leadership or a consensus on ideology, the revolution became a series of off the cuff responses to unexpected or accidental events with a lot of factional infighting. It was a big clusterfuck basically.
Source:
The myth of the French bourgeoisie: an essay on the social imaginary, 1750-1850 by Sarah C. Maza
Interpreting the French Revolution by Francois Furet
>Paris Commune was overblown There's still a lot of debate about this event but leftists have blown it out of proportion. It was just a regional insurrection that even involved right wing neo Jacobins. Because it was short lived, anarchists, socialists, and communists could all project their own hopes and dreams onto it and interpret it as proof of an imminent proletarian revolution. France had dozens of uprisings in 19th century. What makes this one so special?
https://publicseminar.org/essays/the-paris-commune-of-1871-myth-and-reality/
>The early French socialists were retards I mean Marx said as much himself but this is really a matter of opinion. I read a lot of Voltaire, Montesquieu etc. and I didn't like them.
No.1813438
What's your opinion on Murray Bookchin?
No.1815794
>the houthis are homophobic so Palestine deserves no aid. Hamas is homophobic so the genocide is "complicated">Putin is a meanie so we have to ship more weapons to Ukraine so the working class can continue fighting an impossible war, so NATO can jerk itself off (our hero apparently)>we have no plan to actually bring about anarchism and afterwords we'll just uhhh.. be left alone by the CIA because uh…. they'll think we're really cool>Marx is an antisemite because I saw the title "On The Jewish Question" and assumed he was an antisemite because I can't read. He was against the establishment of a capitalist, Jewish ethnostate and that's antisemitic so that means us anarchists are pro-Israel now (???)>every online community of anarchists is just crying about idpol shit but that's okay>facts/science is tough so let's just get into mysticism, like the nazis>if within 100 years something bad happens even once, the entire system must be DESTROYED so WE CAN BE THE CHARGE and immediately lose control due to foreign influence. One innocent man gets wrongly convicted of a crime? We can't imprison rapists anymore.>our hero Chomsky can give a glowing explanation of why nationalizing industry is good, but then his justification for anarchism is "well Angola was cool until it fell apart. The real anarchism is the working class… *claps*"tl;dr everyone but me is a fascist. It's pretty much the "send thoughts and prayers" of leftism.
>>1715490Anarchism has direct, historical proof of falling apart in a year after it's tried, precisely because society isn't prepared for it yet, just like Marx wrote. Don't cast stones from glass houses.
No.1815796
Anarchism worked, anarchism works and anarchism will work.
The debate should not be if it will work, but how we can make it work again, and do it better then before.
No.1816656
>>1815794Who is being quoted howevermore
No.1816678
>never worked
No.1816713
>>1816706Are these “capitalist theocracies” in the room with us right now? And how are your current anarchist states fairing?
No.1816736
>>1816713>MLoid needs to deny Houthis are theocratic nationalists and Russia is capitalist like the opportunistic coward it isShocker
No.1816739
the fact both of you even have these types of arguments prove both MLoids and the average anarchists are retarded and will never win
No.1816741
>>1816706>Le first line of the green text proves anarchist is le based<First line is about how anarchist support Capitalism genocide and imperialism if the target is not woke enoughnot the own you think it its anarchoid.
No.1816748
>>1816741The first line is disingenuous and relies on emotional argumentation, which isn't shocking for an ML
"Anarchists support capitalist genocide" only makes sense if viewed through the cowardly and opportunistic lens of modern self-proclaimed MLs, who very shamelessly champion theocratic organizations, capitalists, and other murderous anti-communists leading the fight where MLs themselves have pathetically failed
It's actually the highest of farces to witness MLs take immense pride in rhetorically supporting the armed struggle of non-socialist anti-proletarian militant forces whose ultimate aim has nothing to do with the aims MLs themselves champion
The cowardice typically reveals itself in the hypocrisy of the MLoid, where they promote themselves as cold materialists and pragmatists when it comes to the history of ML led purges of the left, but cry and shit themselves when modern communists and anarchists don't throw their lot in with militants that are only circumstantial enemies of the West
Do you genuinely think your online politics are worth that much of a fuck? Why does it matter if communists rhetorically shill for the Houthis and Russia in your smooth brain?
Is baby scared of seeing people with different ideas? Does it hurt baby's little brain?
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