No.1732856
Abolished completely like anything else that blocks creativity.
No.1732858
Easy, copyright is a form of property and will be nationalized along with other key industries. IPs or whatever they’ll be called will belong to the party-state to use as they see fit
No.1732860
Artists will have a guaranteed standard of living so they don't have to worry about making residuals off their work
No.1732872
Temporary creative monopolies for the creator until they are finished i.e. a writer creates a universe in a book series for example that lasts three books, once all three books have been released it belongs to anyone including the reader who can create their own stories within that universe and publish it. The reason I say temporary monopoly is because some writers want to tell a very sweeping story and prefer it to keep its integrity within the author’s vision and once that story is complete people are free to be as creative as they want in expanding that vision.
No.1732879
>>1732872If the books are successful at all the writer will just keep adding books to the series. If they have anything particular to offer as a writer (and even if they don't tbh), people will still want to read the "real" version of the story despite hundreds of fanfictions based on the stories.
No.1732882
>>1732879>If the books are successful at all the writer will just keep adding books to the seriesYeah but what does this even mean under socialism? You can't go by sales
No.1732885
>>1732882>You can't go by salesYou can go by some version of that, just without people paying money. Like views on youtube or listens on spotify.
No.1732886
>>1732882All media should be available through a centralised portal which tracks how many people accessed it, artists should continue to get paid as long as their work meets a minimum standard of popularity. If it doesn't they will be asked to get a regular job and can pursue art in their free time until such a time as they meet the minimum popularity.
No.1732887
The "original intent" of copyright was to protect the profits of writers and publishers. The answer depends then on just what kind of circumstances they're working in under "socialism." I use quotations here only because socialism is deceptive of a transitional period that well require and enable different attitudes towards IP as the circumstances evolve.
The less need there is for profit to sustain creative endeavor, the less need there is to provide a monopoly on IP. Ensuring certain rights to the creator isn't necessarily harmful and might be useful even under socialism. Say for instance you've got an author in the Democratic People's Reunified Republic of Korea that has published a book or something. Their work should still have some kind of protection in case some fucking American corp rips it off and starts publishing it for a profit without that author's permission.
Ultimately I think it comes down to whether or not someone's work is being used to generate profit, and how they're doing that. If the point is to enable creativity, then some act of qualitative transformation has to occur at least. Anime Abridged serieses for example, using footage from DBZ or whatever, reedited, with new scripts and new voice acting to make something new. Or things like Star Trek fan films, which are considered "derivative" of the Star Trek IP, but are more or less entirely new things created without any assistance from their owner.
Personally I think that anything that costs practically nothing to reproduce is fair game. Napster and BitTorrent made digital media virtually worthless. Maybe there might be circumstances where it's beneficial to provide a monopoly on that kind of produce, but if so they should be very limited.
No.1732889
>>1732886>only popular art should be supportedCunt thinking.
No.1732890
>>1732856wrong. it should be abolished because it hinders development
>>1732858wrong. this would be as pointless as nationalizing titles of nobility: they are purely ideological instruments put in place by a dominant class (in this case the bourgeoisie in the developed countries where most art and patents are produced) to protect their privileges. and they finally find themselves opposing the progress and technology that got them there in the first place
>>1732860wrong. you still need to keep records of authorship and a consumer market for art. the standard of living of artists should be determined by the consumers
>>1732872I don't even need to point out what is wrong with this one
No.1732891
>>1732889Well how else do you stop someone making stuff that appeals literally only to them and nobody else and provides zero social value? I didn't say the standard would be that high
No.1732893
All artistic mediums should be without any restrictions be allowed to be critiqued, parodied, influenced and adapted.
Films should be made without any artistic restrictions, neither should any graphical and physical art.
There should never be a prevailling socialist art style, either. It should be dynamic and not through a capitalist producers reliance of fads or trends (which he would use to ensure a profit) i.e market research which dominates capitalist art and restricts films into becoming sloppy unoriginal pre-packaged consumer messes. It should be dynamic and naturally change with new schools of artists.
No.1732939
>>1732891Have you never taken a course in art history or anything? Art's value isn't in it's popularity, least of all when it's first made. The more novel something is, the less likely it is to be popular in the first place. There's plenty of examples of art that's nowadays considered valuable or influential or important that at the time was completely ignored or even hated. The work of Monet and the impressionists was considered junk and Van Gogh wasn't popular in his own lifetime. When The Rite of Spring premiered people rioted. There are countless movies and bands and plays that the public slept on at the time and didn't become famous until years later. The Confederacy of Dunces is considered a classic today but it wasn't published until after the author's death because it was rejected everywhere it was submitted. Hell, if it weren't for all the fucking weirdos on the internet making shit for themselves and their other insane computer friends you and I probably wouldn't even be here.
And that's all aside from the fact that art is an iterative process that requires a lot of trial and a lot of failure before something "popular" is created. Popular YouTube creators Videogame Donkey and Hbomberguy both have talked about how they started off making total bullshit that appealed to absolutely no one, and that constituted a significant part of their early careers before they developed into the artists that they are now.
But even aside from all of that, a person should have the absolute right to make art even if it appeals to no one, not even themselves, for no reason or any reason at all, regardless of whether some supervisory board of cunts thinks there's any value in it or not.
No.1732958
>>1732939Obviously anyone should be allowed to make art but there needs to be some kind of standards if they're getting paid to do it out of the common stocks. Like okay if we're totally post scarcity then labour vouchers aren't a thing but we're nowhere near that point if there was socialism today. Like how is that fair if one person has to go to work hauling roof tiles and someone else is just sitting around doodling stuff that nobody likes? Yes obviously art can be great even if nobody appreciates it but there's not really any way to evaluate it other than popularity unless you're suggesting we have some kind of council that oversees all the works and decides what is 'real art' that should be paid for
No.1732963
>>1732958>>1732939Also, if someone wants to pursue a career in art they would be able to go study their chosen field and be supported while doing so which gives them time to hone their craft and develop a fanbase.
No.1732973
>>1732887writers did fine before ip laws. torrents exist but people still pay for single player games
even in your hypothetical scenario: the internet exist, it isn't the 19th century, you as the consumer have access to both the original work and the reproduction. consumers will choose to support the author
maybe the state-owned online bookstore could have an algorithm to inform the people of any potential plagiarism, and that would already do more than the current ip system
>>1732939decadent bourgeois elitism. how many leeches should society maintain for the sake of a potential van gogh? they can make their super special art in their spare time. if it becomes popular only after their death, bad luck
you seem to assign some obscure magical quality to art, which it does not have. it is a product made for the entertainment of the consumer (the masses of workers, in the case of a socialist government) and nothing more
No.1732981
>>1732958"Sitting around doodling stuff that no one likes" is how you get good at art.
Really this sounds like typical "well people won't do any work if someone doesn't make them!" type shit capcucks say. If the idea is to keep people from avoiding "real work" then making a system that recreates the circumstances we have now isn't to do it. Hollywood is full of useless cunts that make mindless popular bullshit in order to get rich and spit on the people that do their plumbing.
I don't think this fantasy is yours of people giving up fulfilling work just to make trash is really worth worrying about. It's some real "well if people don't have to worry about going hungry no one will clean the toilets" type shit.
No.1732997
>>1732973>writers did fine before ip lawsBefore the modern eras writers were generally either aristocrats, clergy, or the employees of one or the other making works to order, you dumb cunt. Their livelihoods weren't dependent on extracting profit from their works as commodities.
>it is a product made for the entertainment of the consumer (the masses of workers, in the case of a socialist government) and nothing moreYour skull is full of capitalist brainworms and you should fellate a shotgun to keep them from spreading.
No.1732999
>>1732981Who dreams of cleaning toilets? Nobody, so yes there needs to be a degree of compulsion to get people to do it. If we live in magic communism where there's toilet cleaning robots to do everything then great I guess it's not an issue but this is reality here. Making art for a living is a privilege, many people just do art as a hobby and never try to make money off it, I don't see many people cleaning toilets as a hobby do you?
I don't like a lot of Hollywood shit either but the fact remains that some people do, the people who make it are creating a product that fulfils a demand. In socialism they wouldn't be super millionaires for doing it, just paid the same as everyone else, you can call that not art if you want but I'm sure a lot of people think whatever you like 'isn't real art' also.
What is your alternative? Someone gets paid for the rest of their life to 'get good at art' but there's no actual requirement to create any? How exactly do you verify that they're even trying to practice? Meanwhile others are busting their asses at difficult and unpleasant jobs so that society can keep going?
No.1733006
Artists and Artisan as an Artist Sees It
https://www.marxists.org/archive/morris/works/1887/commonweal/09-artist-artisan.htm
>I have nothing to object to in our comrade’s remarks, but a word or two may be pardoned in explanation of the fact that an artist is looked upon as a gentleman (a sort of one), and sometimes receives a certain portion of the respect accorded to that class, which, however, is dealt out so much more liberally to the mere money-maker in other trades; to the landowner, manufacturer, contractor, stockjobber, or what not; in short, it is dealt out to members of the proprietary class exactly in proportion to the obviousness of their living by owning wealth and not creating it. In other words the less pretence they make to be more than mere thieves, the more they are honoured.
>However, let that pass, as it must be admitted that the artists when they gain the point at which they receive any recognition from the public at all, do as hangers-on share in the plunder won by the class to which, if our workmen friends knew it, they are admitted somewhat grudgingly. Now, it must be admitted by all thoughtful people that the conventional flattery of the intellect, which is conventionally supposed as a separate and specially worshipful quality, to be the main-spring of the artist’s capacity, is both stupid and harmful. But like all the rest of our conventionalities it is founded on history; it is a birth of the individualist commercial system which we are at work combatting to-day, with good hope of seeing it disappear. It is that system which has divided the old craftsman into two, artist and artisan. For, before the rise of capitalism in the sixteenth century, the artisan did not differ in kind from the artist; all craftsmen who made anything were artists of some kind, they only differed in degree, and only a few of those who had very special gifts of hand and brain have so much as left their names behind them. No one knows, eg., the name of the man who designed Westminster Abbey, although it rose up amongst the King’s Court, and doubtless was talked about enough in its time; and meantime every joiner or mason or blacksmith was doing his share of work towards the pleasure which our comrade feels is necessary to the life of man, and never dreaming of receiving any special reward for the beauty or invention in his work; although doubtless he did receive the unconventional and genuine praise and thanks of his neighbours for it, just as he gave it to his neighbour craftsmen. With the growth of the historic sense which is a gain of the present century, with the knowledge of the continuity of history which we have now learned, we have come to a conscious knowledge that the intellect of man works co-operatively and collectively; but although the workmen of the Middle Ages were not conscious of this fact, they were happier than we are in this respect, that they practised that cooperation in their production of beauty; whereas we, as long as we are under the domination of the profit-grinders, cannot do so; and the result follows which I have so often spoken of, that art is a skinny drowsy skeleton amidst the stir and enormous riches of modern civilization; and that too in an age, which as I have just said, has discovered that it was the collective people, and not a few miraculous individuals who have produced all worthy, that is all genuine, art in the past. I say when art is hopeful and progressive there is plenty of it for every one, and every one is in some sense an artist, and those who produce beauty are not demi-gods but men, and all can understand them; it is only when beauty produced by man becomes rare that we take to deifying its producers. There is little that is mysterious about the plagiarists and compilers of the Augustan age of Rome; the authors of that mass of Platitudinous rubbish, that fresh flowing well-spring of stupidity, are well known and amply ticketted. But modern research has made Homer a dim and doubtful shadow to us, while it has added clearness to our vision of the life of the people of that time, who were the real authors of the Homeric Poems. Beowulf, the first and the best poem of the English race, which they bore hither the across the seas with them, has no author but the people. No other authors has the splendid literature of our Scandinavian kinsmen, the best tale-tellers the world has seen, through whom we can to-day live with the people of Northern Europe in the tenth century, and know them, not as puppets of chivalry romance, but good fellows such as our living friends are to-day. Again, along with William Cobbett, contrast the dungeon-like propriety of St Paul’s, the work of a ‘famous’ architect, with the free imagination and delicate beauty of the people-built Gothic churches, that were raised by masons who had no architect over them, and who did their work for the reward of a free life, and needed no fame as an extra; and then consider how the people build. In short, our comrade will understand me when I say that what we want is to extinguish not the artist, but the mere artisan, by destroying the flattery craving flunkey in the one, and the brutal toil-worn slave in the other, so that they may both be men; in which case they must be artists in one way or other, that is, they must take an interest in life.
>Meanwhile, I cannot see that any extra reward should be given to a man for following an ‘intellectual’ calling. If he does his work in it well, it is more pleasurable to him than a ‘non-intellectual’ one, and why should he be paid twice over? If he does it ill, let him be pulled out of it in the gentlest way possible, and learn to do what he can do. A poet doesn’t need paying for his poetry (he is not paid much now), because he will write better poetry and not worse if he has an ordinary occupation to follow. As for the other mere artists, a painter for instance, I admit that he will probably have to stick to his painting if he has to do it well; but then he should be paid not for the ‘intellectual’ part of his work, but for the workman’s part of it; finishing up everything properly, doing everything as well as it can be done in all respects. This will take something out of him. But the exercise of his ‘intellect’ will take nothing; it is mere play.
>The long and short of it is this, a decent life, a share in the common life of all is the only ‘reward’ that any man can honestly take for his work, whatever he is; if he asks for more, that means that he intends to play the master over somebody. When the workers have made up their minds to be free, he won’t get that, so he may make himself easy, and get amusement out of his work as he can, if he is a ‘superior person’. Well, I end as our comrade, with the word ‘equality’, which will one day become a real thing and no mere word, and so cure all our troubles. No.1733009
>>1732999Go ahead and post some art you've made.
No.1733019
>>1733009What does that have to do with anything? Does it make my argument more or less valid? I have produced some YouTube videos which received some praise but overall not that much attention, I'm mostly ashamed of them now and don't really want to share, I used to draw as a teen but depression crushed that as it did to my writing and I haven't published anything in either field for like 12 years or so. I would like to do more art but my self loathing and lack of motivation mostly gets in the way. Would you like to respond to any of my points?
No.1733021
>>1733006Wise words, that's all I want really, if someone's art isn't meeting expectations of popularity they should be gently told that they need to find other work.
Also, artists could work for a standard labour vouchers wage on other people's projects, for example many pieces of art like comics need multiple people to make them, they could just work on one of those for a time to continue working as an artist.
No.1733028
>>1733019he is baiting you, he has no argument besides
>I'm the next big post-modern artist and the state should pay for my shit even if no one cares about it>>1732997lol, are you sure you studied art history? I will give you another hint about your magical "sophisticated" art: nobody likes it and the only reason it has any nominal value is because rich people use it to launder money
No.1733031
>>1733006the opinion of the artist doesn't matter, it is an economical issue. congratulations for polluting the thread, because even if it did matter, that's an unnecessarily large quote that says nothing and no one should read
No.1733034
IP is a bourgeois creation and shouldn't exist. It's literally the enclosure of the commons in the realm of the mind. The end of the open range. A way to apply private property relations to imaginary concepts.
Imagine the opposite, a socialist society that didn't abolish it. That means you'd need to waste the talents of so many people, office space and resources to establish a state agency to police IP. A bunch of people who could be doing literally anything else devoting their careers to hunting down and adjudicating fucking Mickey Mouse copies on behalf of an infinitesimally tiny portion of society (as artists are).
No.1733044
So what were/are IP laws like in AES countries? China enforces IP.
No.1733049
>>1733044China isn't socialist.
No.1733050
>>1733049What criteria are you using to determine that?
No.1733051
>get btfo
>but what about china?
as common as pathetic
No.1733052
>>1733050They still have classes
No.1733053
>>1733050Not them but what’s your criteria?
No.1733056
>>1733019>What does that have to do with anything? That you and these other ignorant cunts
>>1733028>>1733031aren't qualified to talk about what art is or isn't. You don't have the intellectual or technical requirements to evaluate it and you have no idea what's involved in creating it. To you it's not "real work," because you're ignorant of what doing it actually involves. "How exactly do you verify that they're even trying to practice?" How do you know someone is tiling a roof? There isn't any difference in the application of their art, you chode.
>>1733031Read, you useless anarchist bitch.
No.1733060
>>1733056You said earlier that you didn't want some council of cunts deciding what and isn't art yet now you're saying that is exactly what you want? Also a roof has obvious practical implications whereas a practice sketch doesn't.
No.1733071
Art and Literature in Socialist Society
https://www.marxists.org/archive/bebel/1879/excerpt/ch02.htm
>As soon as the rising generation of the new society attains its majority all further development is left to the individual. Each does as his inclinations and talents prompt him. Some choose a branch of the ever more impressively advancing natural sciences: anthropology, zoology, botany, mineralogy, geology, physics, chemistry, archaeology, etc., others take up the science of history, philology, the arts, etc. Still others, nioved by passion, become musicians, painters, sculptors or actors. In future there will be no artists, scientists or craftsmen by profession. Thousands of brilliant talents, hitherto stifled, will now be able to unfold and manifest themselves in knowledge and skills. There will be no longer musicians, actors, artists, scientists by profession, but the more by inspiration, talent and genius. These achievements will excel those of the present day to the same vast extent as the industrial, technical and agricultural achievements of the future society will excel those of today.
>An era of art and sciences will be ushered in, such as the world has never seen before, and its creations will be of a corresponding quality.
>The renascence art will experience, once conditions worthy of human beings exist, was foreseen by no less a man than the late Richard Wagner, who spoke of it as early as 1850 in his Art and Revolution. This work is particularly remarkable, because it appeared immediately after a revolution that had been crushed and one in which Wagner took part. Wagner predicts what the future will bring. In this book he turns directly to the working class upon whom he calls to help the artists found genuine art. Among other things, he says: "When, with the free men of the future, the earning of a living is no longer the purpose of life; when, on the contrary, thanks to the new faith now practised, or better knowledge, the earning of a livelihood in exchange for a compatible natural activity is ensured him beyond all doubt, in short, when industry is no longer our master but our servant, we shall make the joy of life the purpose of life and seek to educate our children able and fit really to experience that joy to the full. Education, based on the building up of strength and the fostering of physical beauty, will, if only due to the untroubled love for the child and the joy expertenccd at his thriving beauty,become a purely artistic one, and everybody will in some respect become a true artist. The diversity of natural inclinations will develop the most manifold trends to an unexpected richness!" That is a thoroughly socialistic idea and fully in keeping with our statements.
>Social life will become increasingly public in the future. This trend can be seen at its dearest from the completely different position of woman, as compared with former times. Domestic life will be confined to the essential minimum, while the widest possible field will be opened to the gratification of the social instinct. Large meeting-places for lectures and debates and for the discussion of all public affairs, in which the ruling decision will in future belong to the collective, eating halls, recreation and reading rooms, libraries, concert halls, theatres, museums, play and sports grounds, parks and promenades, public baths, educational establishments of all sorts, all fitted out with the latest equipment, shall afford rich opportunities for superlative achievement in the arts, sciences and all spheres of entertainment. Likewise will the institutions for the care of the sick, the infirm and the aged conform to the highest possible standards.
>How paltry will our much vaunted age appear in comparison. This fawning for favour and benevolence from above, this dog-like cringing, this jealous struggle for positions of privilege, in which the most hateful methods are employed, along with stifling of convictions, the veiling of good qualities that might give offence, emasculation of character, simulation of views and feelings–all those qualities which can be srtrr2med up as cowardice and unprincipledlzcss, now come every day more and more distinctly to the fore. Whatever elevates and ennobles man–self-reliance, independence and incorruptibility in his views and convictions, his freedom to assert his personality–is considered in the conditions prevailing today mainly as a fault or defect. These properties often ruin him who possesses them, if he cannnot suppress them. Many are not even aware of their degradation, they have grown used to it. The dog regards it as a matter of course that he has a master who, when out of temper, gives him a taste of the whip.
>With the above-mentioned changes in social life all literary production will undergo a radical change. Theological literature, which accounts for the largest number of titles in the annual catalogues of new publications, drops out together with legal literature. There is no interest shown in the first and no use for the second; publications concerned with the daily battles over political institutions will also disappear, because these institutions will no longer exist. The relevant studies will become part of cultural history. The vast mass of inane publications-evidence of corrupted taste, often possible only through sacrifices made by the author out of vanity–are gone. Even speaking from the viewpoint of present conditions, it can be said without exaggeration that there is such a vast mass of superficial or harmful books and of obvious trash in the field of literary production that foul-fifths of all writings could disappear front the market without loss to a single sphere of culture.
>Belles-lettres and the press will be hit to the saine extent. There is nothing more lacking in intellect and Inoie superficial than Inost of our newspapers. If our level of cultural achievement and scientific outlook were to be judged frorn the content of our newspapers, it would be low indeed. The activity of men and the general state of affairs are judged from a viewpoint that is reminiscent of the distant past and that has long since been proved untenable by the science of today. A large portion of our journalists are people who, as Bismarck once said, not without reason, "missed their calling", but whose level of education and salary claims fall in with the business interests of the bourgeoisie. Furthermore, these newspapers, as well as the majority of the literary journals, have the mission of circulating most obscene advertisements in their advertisement sections, while their business sections pursue identical aims in a different field. The material interest of the owner determines the content. Literature is generally not much better than the newspapers, for it cultivates interest in sexual excesses, renders homage now to shallow pseudo-enlightenment, now to the most absurd prejudices and superstitions. the aim is to make the bourgeois world–all its shortcomings, which are conceded as trifles, notwithstantling-appear as the best of all possible worlds.
>In this extensive and important field the future society will have to thoroughly put its house in ortler. Yciencc, truth, beauty and debate over what is best, will rule supreme. Everyone who makes a worthwhile contribution will have ample opportunity for participation. He no longer depends upon the favour of a publisher, money considerations or prejudice, but on the judgement of impartial experts, in whose selection he himself takes part, and against whose unfavourable decision he can always appeal to the community, a step that is impossible in newspaper offices or publishing houses today which are guided by their private interests alone. The naive notion that all debate will be suppressed in a socialist community can be defended only by those who see in the bourgeois world an ideal social system, and who, because of their hostility to socialism, seek to slander and belittle it. A society that is based on complete democratic equaity neither knows nor tolerates oppression. Only unlimited freedom of thought makes uninterrupted progress possible, and this is the vital principle of society. It is also a gross delusion to represent bourgeois society as a champion of genuine freedom of thought. Parties representing the class interests of the ruling publish in the press only what dues not assail their class interests, and woe to anyone who should attempt to kick against this. His social ruin is sealed, as every body who is familiar with the situation knows only too well. Many a writer could tell a tale of woe on how publishers handle literary work which does not suit them. Finally, our press and criminal legislation betray the spirit that animates our ruling and governing classes. True freedom of thought is looked upon by them as the most dangerous of evils. No.1733073
>>1733060>a practice sketch has no practical applicationsJust one dumb thing after another out of your idiot mouth huh
No.1733076
>>1733056none of that matters, the only thing that matters is that resources are efficiently allocated to industries that society considers useful. art is, at most, just another product
if your art is as good as your arguments it's no surprise you feel threatened by this prospect
No.1733077
>>1732849Intellectual property has no right to exist. Credit in name is more than enough.
No.1733083
>>1732856This.
>>1732860This too.
It's frustrating how some socialists are influenced by capitalist
reality propaganda. It is already a very common case under capitalism that the actual creators don't own the relevant patents and copyrights. So clearly such mechanisms are not necessary when prizes and grants can do it. You can receive remuneration for making a sculpture without also owning the right to distributing photos of it.
>>1732856>The "original intent" of copyright was to protect the profits of writers and publishers.Copyright was invented in Britain as a tool of censorship. Originally you had to submit the work for review first and the profit motive was the carrot to get printers along with it. State violence was to some extent outsourced to the printers. They could destroy the workshops of the copiers.
>>1732939>a person should have the absolute right to make art even if it appeals to no oneThe comment you reply to is a short statement that not everything should be financially rewarded.
>>1732973>writers did fine before ip laws.For most of them, they did not do that well then and not now either. Most people who write books cannot do that for a living. The author who does that as her one job is a rare exception. Our perception of writing is extremely distorted through focus on super stars. Likewise with musicians. If copyright was abolished entirely, then, even without establishing any alternative funding mechanism, the vast majority of live musicians would massively benefit from that change.
>>1733006Thanks.
No.1733084
>this thread again
We literally had this exact discussion two months ago on /music/.
No.1733087
>How would IP laws and copyright be handled under socialism?Exactly how Communist China does it.
>Would it be abolished or just reformed? How would artists be compensated if not for royalties?Copyright is not abolished or reformed under socialism, but revolutionized into an proletarian lever of force against the bourgeoisie.
>Also, what about “hard cases” like instances of cultural appropriation, etc.?Study Chinese communist copyright law. Cultural appropriation is not a term used within the communist legal code. All cases are decided according the interests of The People.
https://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2020-11/11/content_5560583.htm No.1733089
>>1733087Who determines the “interests of the people”?
No.1733092
>>1733087>revolutionizedAKA reformed
No.1733093
>>1733089I apologize. I failed to post the full law. Here it is.
https://www.lindapatent.com/en/law_copyright/1151.htmlThe People's Court decides
No.1733097
>>1732849Copyright wasn't a thing before capitalism so why would it be a thing after?
No.1733101
>>1733097Light bulbs weren't a thing before capitalism, why would they be after?
No.1733104
>>1733101This is a double bad example.
Lightbulbs were invented under capitalism but would be useful in any system.
LEDs were also invented in capitalism and are generally superior to lightbulbs (and can be made with the same sockets).
No.1733107
>>1733104Automobiles, planes, trains
No.1733113
>>1733097Something something something Hegel sublation.
No.1733114
>>1733107How the fuck would copyright law be useful under any system other than capitalism?
No.1733123
>>1733114If the current booj invent a new class system to replace capitalism ("neofeudalism" or something) then maybe. For socialism it wouldn't.
No.1733157
>>1733087China isn't socialist.
No.1733169
>>1733157>China isn't socialist.Constitution of the People's Republic of China
https://english.www.gov.cn/archive/lawsregulations/201911/20/content_WS5ed8856ec6d0b3f0e9499913.html<After the founding of the People’s Republic of China, our country gradually achieved the transition from a new democratic society to a socialist society. The socialist transformation of private ownership of the means of production has been completed, the system of exploitation of man by man abolished, and a socialist system established. The people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on an alliance of workers and peasants, which in essence is a dictatorship of the proletariat, has been consolidated and developed. The Chinese people and the <Chinese People’s Liberation Army have defeated imperialist and hegemonist aggression, sabotage and armed provocations, safeguarded national independence and security, and strengthened national defense. Major achievements have been made in economic development. An independent and relatively complete socialist industrial system has now basically been established, and agricultural output has markedly increased. Significant advances have been made in education, science, culture and other fields, and education about socialist thought has made notable progress. The lives of the people have been considerably improved. <Article 1 The People’s Republic of China is a socialist state governed by a people’s democratic dictatorship that is led by the working class and based on an alliance of workers and peasants.<The socialist system is the fundamental system of the People’s Republic of China. Leadership by the Communist Party of China is the defining feature of socialism with Chinese characteristics. It is prohibited for any organization or individual to damage the socialist system. China is socialist.
Copyright Law of the People’s Republic of China
https://english.www.gov.cn/archive/laws_regulations/2014/08/23/content_281474982987430.htm<Article 1 This Law is enacted, in accordance with the Constitution for the purposes of protecting the copyright of authors in their literary, artistic and scientific works and rights related to copyright, of encouraging the creation and dissemination of works which would contribute to the construction of socialist spiritual and material civilization, and of promoting the development and flourishing of socialist culture and sciences.Chinese copyright law is socialist.
No.1733172
>>1733169>china>the system of exploitation of man by man abolishedlol. Do you think global corporations outsourcing all their manufacturing to China doesn't count as exploitation or something?
No.1733173
>>1733172China has abolished capitalism.
>Capitalism is when productionSocialism with Chinese Characteristics has unleashed the forces of production.
No.1733176
>>1733173The Chinese workers are not getting the full value of their labor, they are still being massively exploited by capitalism.
No.1733179
>>1733173Explain sweatshop companies like Shein then.
No.1733199
>>1733176>The Chinese workers are not getting the full value of their labor,Read Capital. Societal development would not be possible if each individual worker "gets" the full value of their labor. The CPC organizes labor and value distribution according to the communist principal of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need".
>they are still being massively exploited by capitalism.No individual member of Chinese society is exploited by capitalism; they are each utilized by Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, in which the private property has been transformed into socialist property and the proletarian dictatorship plays the primary role in guiding the development of the socialist economy and ensuring the common prosperity of the people.
No.1733201
>>1733199>Socialism with Chinese CharacteristicsAKA state capitalism
No.1733204
>>1733203>capitalism is okay when we do itno
No.1733208
>>1733201>state capitalismThere is no capitalism in China. There are no bourgeoisie in China. Read the constitution again. Study theory.
No.1733209
>>1733208You are delusional.
No.1733224
Abolished.
>How would artists be compensated if not for royalties?
Commercialization of art and hobbies can go die alone.
>Also, what about “hard cases” like instances of cultural appropriation, etc.?
Nationalism isn't a hard case.
>Let’s have this discussion.
Nothing left to say.
No.1733233
>>1733209>there is capitalism in ChinaYou are delusional, theorylet. Read Lenin.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch05.htm<Given these economic preconditions, it is quite possible, after the overthrow of the capitalists and the bureaucrats, to proceed immediately, overnight, to replace them in the control over production and distribution, in the work of keeping account of labor and products, by the armed workers, by the whole of the armed population. (The question of control and accounting should not be confused with the question of the scientifically trained staff of engineers, agronomists, and so on. These gentlemen are working today in obedience to the wishes of the capitalists and will work even better tomorrow in obedience to the wishes of the armed workers.)<Accounting and control–that is mainly what is needed for the "smooth working", for the proper functioning, of the first phase of communist society. All citizens are transformed into hired employees of the state, which consists of the armed workers. All citizens becomes employees and workers of a single countrywide state “syndicate”. All that is required is that they should work equally, do their proper share of work, and get equal pay; the accounting and control necessary for this have been simplified by capitalism to the utmost and reduced to the extraordinarily simple operations–which any literate person can perform–of supervising and recording, knowledge of the four rules of arithmetic, and issuing appropriate receipts.[1]<When the majority of the people begin independently and everywhere to keep such accounts and exercise such control over the capitalists (now converted into employees) and over the intellectual gentry who preserve their capitalist habits, this control will really become universal, general, and popular; and there will be no getting away from it, there will be "nowhere to go".China is the highest stage of socialism, having surpassed Lenin's criteria of what defines the higher phase of communist society. Chinese "capitalists" have long since been liquidated— transformed into mere employees, no longer capitalists, and are now proletarians.
No.1733234
>>1733208>>1733209>>1733233China has not established a socialized economy. They have a market economy and a system where capital is invested to gain profit. Their government understands this and does not pretend otherwise.
If people want to call it a hybrid economy due to departures from normal liberal capitalist norms, then cool, whatever. But to call their system socialism is so funny I am actually laughing.
No.1733243
>>1733234>China has not established a socialized economy. They have a market economy and a system where capital is invested to gain profit. Their government understands this and does not pretend otherwise.The people own the means of production, and there are no capitalists; therefore, the means of production are not capital. Value is invested by The People according to the communist principal of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need".
>If people want to call it a hybrid economy due to departures from normal liberal capitalist norms, then cool, whatever. But to call their system socialism is so funny I am actually laughing.China has abolished "normal liberal capitalist norms" and capitalist production. See a therapist.
No.1733255
>Would it be abolished or just reformed? How would artists be compensated if not for royalties?
Abolished. Artists would be compensated for their work and gain royalties for what they've worked on. However the practice of hoarding ideas as precious commodities you essentially charge artists rent to use would be abolished entirely.
>Also, what about “hard cases” like instances of cultural appropriation, etc.?
Cultural appropriation is a product of the capitalist commodification of things, in this instance culture. It would wither away as a practice under socialism, making way instead for the free exchange of culture and ideas.
No.1733258
>>1733243lol you're a retard. Read Xi.
No.1733260
>>1733255>Abolished>gain royalties>Abolished>gain royaltiessee
>>1732908 No.1733261
>>1733260Someone being compensated for the further use of their labor isn't private property. They aren't gaining wealth due to their ownership of a thing, but because of their labor which created the value of the thing.
No.1733265
>>1733255>Artists would be compensated for their work and gain royalties for what they've worked on.This is vague and utopian. The proletarian state CANNOT subtract from the forces of production to subsidize a reactionary class of petty-bourgeois artisans.
>>1733258You're a retard, if you cannot demonstrate where the facts I've stated contradict any of Xi's wide and deep body of theory.
>>1733261>They aren't gaining wealth due to their ownership of a thing, but because of their labor which created the value of the thing.This is the principle aspect of petty-bourgeois false consciousness. Conduct self-criticism immediately.
No.1733266
>>1733208>There are no bourgeoisie in China.Explain all the billionaires.
No.1733275
>>1733265>This is vague and utopian. The proletarian state CANNOT subtract from the forces of production to subsidize a reactionary class of petty-bourgeois artisans.so art should be unpaid labor ?.
good luck finding people to do anything artistic then.
No.1733276
>>1733266These billionaires are not capitalists, but mere employees— and thusly proletarians— of the proletarian dictatorship, and are distributed value as dictated by the Communist Party, scientifically, in respect to their contribution, in order to maximize the development of the forces of production and further the interests of The People.
No.1733296
>>1733275>so art should be unpaid labor ?.This disgusting, liberal notion of socialized art production as "unpaid labor" due to lack of royalties derived from patent ownership is petty-bourgeois consciousness.
>good luck finding people to do anything artistic then.In China, the Communist Party has established a thriving class of proletarian artists. These artists do not derive their share of value from ownership, but from scientific socialist value distribution, determined by their need— i.e., are given enough to maximize their development in accordance to the maximal furtherment of the interests of the proletariat— as dictated by The People's will, which is manifested through the mandate of The Party. The Party is continually taking steps to further develop and empower them and cultural development.
No.1733297
>>1733145I still find it hilarious how musicians absolutely despise IP whereas illustrators and fashion designers all have petit-bourgeois brainworms and will defend it to death. Sophie from Tumblr probably listens to a lot of the artists from this video who were only able to make said music because they disregarded copyright, yet she'll sperge out if someone else sells a product remotely similar to hers on Etsy.
No.1733298
>>1733276This response sounds like AI.
No.1733309
>>1733297I wonder if it has anything to do with how differently the recording and visual industries treat ip or something like that
No.1733334
>>1733309More like, musicians work off of each other and music is a much more collectivist art form.
No.1733358
>>1733255How would you deal with plagiarism?
To put an example, a big name writer just copies the work of a smaller writer, and gets the credit for it.
No.1733361
>>1733296Genshin Impact is the pinnacle of proletarian art
No.1733372
>>1733358nta but
this already happens with ip laws, and as long as the plagiarist has a minimum of care/sophistication there is nothing that you can do. if one of stephen king's ghost writers rewords your novel and publishes it under his name you are basically fucked
under a socialist government you could give more channels to artists to let the public know about these cases, and make editorial information easily available so people can check who published what first. you could even have an AI to detect these things and warn the potential consumers (I suspect this is possible with our current technology)
so for example, if I were reading a fanfic or an alternative ending for a popular novel I would expect a degree of "plagiarism", but if I wanted to read an original work I would try to avoid anything with plagiarism complaints on the government database
No.1733393
All private property is gonna be abolished. Especially intellectual property. That's how communism be doing.
No.1733400
>>1733358Suppose I buy the services of some artist to pretend that I have some skills I don't actually have (drawing, writing, programming, whatever). I and the artist agree that I will put my name on that stuff and she will remain anonymous. Why would "IP law" put an end to this fraudulent behavior? It cannot.
There are some really old pieces of music, really old drawings, etc. that are not protected by "IP law". If I take one of these old things and claim that I made that, how could "IP law" put an end to this fraudulent behavior? It cannot.
It is not a goal of "IP law" to help against plagiarism.
No.1733401
>>1733358What incentive would someone have to plagiarize without a profit motive?
No.1733415
>>1733358>plagiarismPutting aside the fact that the abolition of private property and the profit motive would heavily disincentivize this, plagiarism could be targeted more directly under a socialist state than it could under capitalism as theft of one's labor. In an instance where an artist makes a claim of plagiarism, the ruling of courts wouldn't be decided by who submitted copyright first or who has the most capital, but by whose labor most went into the piece. This is the difference between a work that's just heavily derivative/referential, and one that's outright plagiarized.
Hopefully more universal tools/methods can also be developed that allow writers and other artists to maintain a paper trail of what they wrote and when, which can also help hold people accountable.
>>1733296>This disgusting, liberal notion of socialized art production as "unpaid labor" due to lack of royalties derived from patent ownershipThis isn't a valid response. Both people you've responded to are explicitly advocating against maintaining patent ownership. Artists should be paid for the labor they perform.
>In China, the Communist Party has established a thriving class of proletarian artists.Is this why they're being displaced by AI faster than artists in any other part of the capitalist world? Is Zenless Zone Zero and the billion other shovelware gacha games coming out of China actually some masterpiece of socialist realism and not just meant to exploit people with gambling addictions with art heavily derivative of the Japanese industry? Stop talking out of your ass.
No.1733423
>>1733401You would be surprised at the stupidity that people can have.
Might be people who think they're smarter than anyone and that the small writer will just "not notice". Or people who are in a real ego trip and think they're invincible. Uncreative authors that had one original thought eons ago and are addicted to the attention they had once.
Of course, plagiarism would be diminished if there isn't any money to make, but that wouldn't stop plagiarism itself.
No.1733541
>>1733204WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH ALL THIS FUCKING NARODNIKS!?!?!?! CAPITALISM ISN'T EVIL YOU FUCKING THEOCRAT
No.1733627
>>1733400>Suppose I buy the services of some artist to pretend that I have some skills I don't actually have (drawing, writing, programming, whatever). I and the artist agree that I will put my name on that stuff and she will remain anonymous. Why would "IP law" put an end to this fraudulent behavior? It cannot.That's how the comic book industry uses work for hire contracts to circumvent ip law you junk slut.
No.1733728
>>1733275I don't get paid for my art, or most of my programming.
No.1733742
>>1733145TBH these boomers who were mad at their songs being used without permission were just reactionary shitheads. It should be considered an honour to be sampled since it means newer, younger artists see value in your old forgotten work.
No.1733749
>>1733201>>1733204You have been mindbroken by CIA propaganda against AES. You are too far gone. You feel the same rage as a reactionary does when any Socialist state gets mentioned. It is already too late, you’ve become a slave to the CIA.
No.1733847
>>1733393Exactly this. No more bullshit.
No.1733867
>>1732849>How would IP laws and copyright be handled under socialism?They wouldn’t exist. There’s no such thing as socialist copyright.
No.1734113
I asked this in the music threat but it bears repeating: on what basis would IP laws need to exist after the revolution? China is revisionist as hell, but the justification they make for enforcing IP is on the basis they need to in order to remain competitive in the global market. Still not a good explanation but whatever.
No.1734774
>>1734772Disney once struck off a winnie the pooh image on a childs grave, they dont take this stuff lightly
No.1734831
>>1733169Neato! Now we all have to interpret this and everything else the CPC does in the context of 180 years of Marxist thought. How do you suppose we do that?
modern Marxism is one hell of a scam No.1734833
>>1734774Yeah but Steamboat Willie is now public domain.
No.1734908
>>1732849i don't give a flying shit about intellectual property and most other artists don't unless its some guy trying to take credit for someone else's work by repacking everything and under your own name which can easily be settled in court, its such a non-issue too.
No.1734932
>>1733815Probably, theres no way some real human cries about China constantly.
No.1734947
>>1734184Read Lenin, you capitalists' swine
Since there can be no talk of an independent ideology formulated by the working masses themselves in the process of their movement, the only choice is — either bourgeois or socialist ideology. There is no middle course (for mankind has not created a “third” ideology, and, moreover, in a society torn by class antagonisms there can never be a non-class or an above-class ideology). Hence, to belittle the socialist ideology in any way, to turn aside from it in the slightest degree means to strengthen bourgeois ideology.
No.1734950
>>1732849Copyright doesn't exist in a socialist society. You can make anything you want at any time with no restriction and you don't get to police how other people use it. If you love something do it because you love it not because you expect to become a gorillionaire.
No.1735044
>>1732849>Also, what about “hard cases” like instances of cultural appropriationThose aren't covered under copyright to begin with. Also its retarded and it just boils down to people from some majority group that has a currently dominating position over another group superficially, wrongly and insensitively adopting some identifier of the oppressed group.
No.1735075
>>1735044Indigenous peoples will often demand some kind of IP protection for their cultural items and traditions though.
No.1735078
>>1735075lol death of creator pIus 90 years, fags
No.1735081
>>1732849Outright lack of authors rights would be stupid, as the creators of something do have a right to moderate their creations usage. However the definition of "plagiarism" and copyright law used in current burger culture is absolute dumpster fire nonsense.
No.1735083
>>1735081>as the creators of something do have a right to moderate their creations usage.Why?
No.1735084
e.g. consider if the creator of a life-saving drug or machine says only they are allowed to manufacture it.
No.1735093
>>1735083Because it is their labor and so it belongs to them, retard
No.1735168
>>1735083Imagine a fascist or Zionist artist samples a song you made and turns it into a song promoting fascism or Zionism. Shouldn’t you be able to stop them?
No.1735172
>>1735168It should be stopped for being Zionist not because 'muh IP', original Zionist songs should be suppressed too
No.1735174
>>1735172How do you determine what counts as “Zionist” though? It’s identical to countries that try to ban “communism.”
No.1735178
>>1735174I mean ideally Zionism would be a historical relic so it wouldn't matter anyway. But you would just have a reasonable panel judge what it was if needed
No.1735182
>>1735178What if the ideology isn’t Zionism but something you just happen to disagree with? Like sampling a song about your grief and turning it into the basis for a song about doing drugs and fucking bitches?
No.1735184
>>1735172How would you suppress shit when the internet is basically an open forum? Which interestingly enough also de facto entails the death of copyright.
No.1735189
>>1735168I wouldn't care, honestly. I satirize and parody fascist memes anyway.
Imagine a fascist or Zionist invents a medicine you need to survive and they say you can't use it.
No.1735194
>>1735189>Zionist invents a medicine you need to survive and they say you can't use it.Interesting because Israel often times uses its technology and medical achievements to blackmail other countries into submission. Remember when they were working on a covid vaccine and there was a debate among anti-Zionists about how moral it would be to take it?
No.1735196
>>1735182I don't care then, call it disrespectful if you want but whatever. Information wants to be free
>>1735184Well I was assuming I actually had the power to do so otherwise it's a moot point
No.1735208
>>1735192Literally not my problem or anyone’s problem for that matter.
No.1735321
>>1735256“Israeli keffiyehs”
No.1735433
>>1735192>>1735321>jews can't wear keffiyehsThat's like saying the french can't wear wellington boots, fuck out of here.
No.1735441
>>1735433I'd also ask how many of these Jews are Mizrahi and from countries where keffiyehs are traditional (not just Palestine).
No.1735449
>>1735448That was my point: it's irrelevant.
No.1735464
>>1732849>under capitalismviolating or defending IP laws is a component of class struggle
>under socialismabolished
No.1735518
>>1733034>It's literally the enclosure of the commons in the realm of the mind.This is the perfect analogy.
>>1733169>>1733173Except communism isn't reducible to "producing lots and lots of stuff". Communism is about egalitarianism. If you think having the most billionaires per capita, allowing foreign capital to exploit Chinese workers, sweatshop misery, suicide nets in factories, Chinese workers taking "meth pills" to stay productive, weeding away the true egalitarian programs that existed in the Mao Era, etc. are "communist" I have a bridge to sell you. The only thing that makes me hopeful about China is, there are still several old Maoists in the CPC who would potentially stage a coup if they had the balls/ovaries to do so.
>>1733742>It should be considered an honour to be sampledIt's funny because this exact thing was said by Bobby Caldwell, a white soul singer who was sampled multiple times and who's music would be otherwise obscure had it not been. I do find it amusing how Dilla and Common were able to flip an incel song of his into one of the most sophisticated love songs of all time (don't act like you don't recognize this one).
No.1735519
>>1732849>How would IP laws and copyright be handled under socialism?this question is retarded by itself
No.1735520
>>1735519Having IP is always worse than not having IP.
No.1735523
>>1735520for ip to exist you need laws for laws to exist you need a state and having a state does not make socialism which is the same as communism, unless people think we need ip law during the transitional stage because copyrighting ideas somehow will help wage against the bourgeois?
No.1735556
>>1735518>Except communism isn't reducible to "producing lots and lots of stuff". Communism is about egalitarianism.Communism, as a historically necessary material force, is reducible down to the condition of the subjugation of the bourgeoisie; the Communist nation of China has accomplished this and is cultivating conditions that will inevitably make this condition universal. Egalitarianism in principle, and as a slogan in praxis—as it inevitably is—is strictly a bourgeois principle.
>If you think having the most billionaires per capitaChina does not have the most billionaires per capita, you liberal snake. China ranks 51st in billionaires per capita by country, despite having the most developed economy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_billionaires>allowing foreign capital to exploit Chinese workershttps://en.ndrc.gov.cn/policies/202105/t20210527_1281403.html<Article 1: The Foreign Investment Law of the People's Republic of China (hereinafter referred to as "the Law") is hereby formulated in accordance with the Constitution of the People's Republic of China in a bid to further expand opening-up, vigorously promote foreign investment, protect the legitimate rights and interests of foreign investors, standardize the management of foreign investment, impel the formation of a new pattern of all-around opening-up and boost the sound development of the socialist market economy.The Chinese proletariat exploits foreign capital through socialism. This is evident due to the great distinctions between China and the monopoly capitalist nations. The exploitation of foreign capital is an integral tool to the development of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics.
>sweatshop miseryhttps://english.www.gov.cn/archive/laws_regulations/2014/08/23/content_281474983042473.htmLabour Law of the People’s Republic of China
<Article 3: Labourers shall have equal right to employment and choice of occupation, the right to remuneration for labour, to rest and vacations, to protection of occupational safety and health, to training in vocational skills, to social insurance and welfare, to submission of labour disputes for settlement and other rights relating to labour stipulated by law.Chinese labor law is the most comprehensive in the world. You make up nonsense yet again. There are no sweatshops in Communist China.
>suicide nets in factoriesThey are safety nets, not "suicide nets." You are irrevocably damaged by imperialist propaganda. You spout imperialist propaganda with every sentence without thought. You are an imperialist.
>Chinese workers taking "meth pills" to stay productiveThis would violate Article 3 of the Labour Law of the People’s Republic of China. If this actually happened in Communist China, then the afflicted workers would have great financial incentive to file suit.
>weeding away the true egalitarian programs that existed in the Mao Era, etc. are "communist" Like a trotskyite in reaction to both the NEP and collectivization, you fail to recognize the historical necessity and achievements of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, and you attempt to fashion truth into lies to tear down Communism.
>I have a bridge to sell you.You're an imperialist liberal.
>The only thing that makes me hopeful about China is, there are still several old Maoists in the CPC who would potentially stage a coup if they had the balls/ovaries to do so. No.1735793
>>1735518>(don't act like you don't recognize this one).I don't. Care to enlighten us?
No.1735960
>>1735192Nearly all of these people are brown or black Jews. I don’t see a single white European there.
No.1736240
>>1736201You are the one who is spreading lies and misinformation about China, not me. You are the one perpetuating age-old imperialist hasbara to slander Communist China.
No.1736241
>>1733401Bitch are you for real?
No.1736244
>>1736240Imagine thinking everything China does is socialist. You're either a bot or a CPC hired propagandist.
No.1736246
>>1735556>Communism, as a historically necessary material force, is reducible down to the condition of the subjugation of the bourgeoisie; the Communist nation of China has accomplished this and is cultivating conditions that will inevitably make this condition universal. Egalitarianism in principle, and as a slogan in praxis—as it inevitably is—is strictly a bourgeois principle.This sounds like a sales pitch.
No.1736247
>>1736244>>1736244Imagine thinking everything China does is capitalist. You're either a poor, brainwashed lumpenproletarian or a CIA-hired propagandist.
No.1736251
>>1736246utopian socialism
No.1736255
Honestly, I don't really care about the well-being of artists. Just like go find a real job
No.1736261
>>1736255the Soviet Union literally funded the arts lmao
No.1736275
>>1736247No one said China was fully capitalist. If anything, it's a degenerated workers' state that still has elements of socialism but is largely capitalist.
No.1736282
>>1733742Most of the time it's actually the labels or publishing companies that sue, not the original artist, which says a lot. Publishing companies are the ones looking for muh royalty gibs.
No.1736283
>>1736261All workerists know is work in factory til you die, anything else is humanities garbage
No.1736284
>>1736283More like, they accuse any kind of innovative art of being CIA or bourgeois or whatever. They think the entire purpose of art is should be either state/military glorification or junk that panders to the moral values of the everyday person.
No.1736285
>>1736284What combines the workerist left and reactionary right is their disdain for jazz and abstract expressionism, which is a codefied resentment of blacks and jews at heart
No.1736286
>>1736285>which is a codefied resentment of blacks and jews at heartExactly.
In today's age you could also argue that hatred for outsider art is also thinly-veiled hatred of queer and autistic people, since queer and autistic artists are more likely to create outsider art.
No.1736287
>>1736286Yes i agree
Its a travesty anyone in the know would ever consider reviving realism. But its all the rave among pseudointellectual culture critics who think "grittiness" is getting at the heart of something "real". At least tarantino turned violence into its own hyperreal style.
I always say that realism is alive and well in the melodramas of soap operas and other trash television.
No.1736288
>>1736283>>1736284>>1736285>>1736286Which is why populism is toxic and inevitably leads to fascism: all it does is play into the mythologies (spooks) of "the masses" and turns anyone on the margins of society into a convenient scapegoat. It's the same reason why Maupin rails against "the lumpen" (most of whom are PoC and concentrated in urban slums) as alleged tools of the ruling class.
No.1736292
>>1736287Soviet Realism is garbage, and it's sad knowing that the USSR early on had its own outsider art movement which ended up being squashed.
>I always say that realism is alive and well in the melodramas of soap operas and other trash television.That too, because a lot of cultural schlock specifically appeals to muh common folk. Completely mindless.
>>1736288Well Maupin also has a way too rosy view of the old CPUSA. He's delusional enough to believe leftists need to specifically cater to Trump supporters by emphasizing small town white conservative Protestant values and anything else is "CIA wokeism" or whatever. Which makes zero sense pragmatically, given that the younger generations of Americans who will actually be the ones building socialism (assuming America ever becomes socialist) are way more socially liberal than the old fogies. Younger people don't give a shit about Browder-era CPUSA and whatever it represented. They're more likely to be reading bell hooks and Mariame Kaba and talking about police abolition or building sustainable communes than "muh communism is muh 21st century Americanism".
No.1736296
>>1736285>What combines the workerist left and reactionary right is their disdain for jazz and abstract expressionism, which is a codefied resentment of blacks and jews at heartThis is your brain on liberalism.
No.1736301
>>1736275The proletarian dictatorship has not degenerated. Communist China's Socialism has only developed at an accelerating pace since its inception.
No.1736303
>>1736296I know you can show how it's "liberalism" (in your view) but can you show why it's wrong? Art whose sole purpose is to appeal to the values of everyday people ceases to be innovative. It's the exact reason why Top 40 pop music all sounds the same and is incredibly lackluster.
But I'm guessing you're the type who probably thinks hip hop and punk are "CIA" anyway.
No.1736305
>>1736292>>1736296>>1736303The kinds of working-class whites in the flyover states whom Maupin and other populists are trying to appeal to don't even listen to old Americana-style folk music like Pete Seeger. They listen to top 40 radio or country music, or if you're talking about the deep Bible Belt they listen to Christian rock/pop.
No.1736307
>>1736305>The kinds of working-class whites in the flyover states whom Maupin and other populists are trying to appeal toImagine being such a deluded state socialist you'd believe the revolutionary vanguard is going to come from the Bible Belt and not the ghetto, rez, and prison.
No.1736308
The mere fact people are even suggesting copyright laws would exist under socialism makes me want to throw up.
No.1736309
>>1736307A glance at "midwestern marx" gives a hint as to how lost the white peasantry is to the cause of advancing socialism.
No.1736310
>>1736309MWM is better than Maupin at least but they've gone downhill so badly in the past six months or so. I think I lost brain cells when Carlos started using Hegelian bullshit to promote Oliver Anthony.
No.1736313
>>1736310Its all part of the same contrarian magacommunist clique with haz and hinkle, which is just a reaproppriation of right wing populism but for the left, where you replace "jews" with "the capitalists". With these guys its mental gymnastics to unite the low-brow with the high-brow and it just comes off as clumsy and manipulative to me.
Theres logo and kantbot too who i think groomed haz into this pseudointellectual performance art that haz is engaging in, where he's lost the object of irony and thinks putin is "unironically" a communist or whatever.
I generally see it as a capturing of the white peasantry to steer them into the discourses of a chosen power. Politics in the US has largely abandoned the proletariat. Now its all culture war stuff.
No.1736315
>>1736313>Theres logo and kantbot too who i think groomed haz into this pseudointellectual performance art that haz is engaging in,I could have sworn it was AW (Anal Water) who first turned Haz into a Hegelian nutjob. I vaguely remember a stream Haz did a while ago (like 2021 IIRC) whereby Haz was speaking to AW.
>Now its all culture war stuff.Agreed, which is why even the people who insist they're sick of culture wars will de facto engage in culture wars by appealing to that very specific white Protestant value system under the guise of appealing to "the masses".
No.1736318
>>1736317They call them "PMC", which again is highly reminiscent of the artificial division between skilled vs unskilled labour.
No.1736320
>>1736317>>1736318 (me)
Not to mention, they repeat the same conspiracy theories about legal abortion and queerness being products of a secret conspiracy to demoralize the American public, only instead of blaming "Cultural Marxism" (aka Jews) they blame the CIA and Rockefellers.
No.1736321
>>1736320Yeah, because no one ever wanted an abortion or was queer before the 1970s.
No.1736323
>>1736318A note on the PMCs, its a term derived from the book "the managerial revolution" written by reactionary, disaffected ex-communist james burnham who later ended up working for the CIA
No.1736324
>>1736323The irony is off the charts here.
No.1736331
>>1736320They think the cultural shift from 1950s conservatism to the social progressivism of today was a planned conspiracy by nefarious forces. They don’t understand how and why culture organically evolves.
No.1736336
>>1736303>I know you can show how it's "liberalism" (in your view) but can you show why it's wrong?it is liberalism :: it is wrong
>Art whose sole purpose is to appeal to the values of everyday people ceases to be innovative.Bourgeois ideology. The truth is that innovation in art is not quantified by how much it deviates from the values of everyday people but by how much it advances the interests of the proletariat.
Modernist art is a form of aesthetic idealism, which is a form of alienation of the people from their reality. This is because aesthetic idealism negates objective existence and the significance of reality and reduces it to subjective impressions, emotions, and fantasies.
Aesthetic realism serves socialism because it connects the proletariat with their reality. Historically, aesthetic realism supplants aesthetic idealism after the proletarian revolution because the latter is more compatible with the interests and needs of the proletariat.
> It's the exact reason why Top 40 pop music all sounds the same and is incredibly lackluster.This is due to capitalism, not the singular quality of mass appeal. Top 40 pop music is not lackluster because it appeals to the values of everyday people, but because it is devoid of any meaningful content or message that can inspire action among the masses. In Communist China, the Communist Party of China has administered the creation of humanity's most innovative music and other arts.
>But I'm guessing you're the type who probably thinks hip hop and punk are "CIA" anyway.These genres have come about and become established thanks to the degenerate, CIA-cultivated conditions of capitalism.
No.1736340
>>1736336>Bourgeois ideology. The truth is that innovation in art is not quantified by how much it deviates from the values of everyday people but by how much it advances the interests of the proletariat.Innovation in art comes spontaneously in the imminence of creativity. Art as we see in history is something we trace from our earliest archaeological records, from the "lion man" tens of thousands of years ago. Humans like to create representations of reality, which is always within the frame of a discourse. The issue with realism is that it seeks to dilute discourse in the "objective", when perspective is by its very mechanism a subjective activity - even the camera flickers through a framing of its own. The camera is a mechanical eye, and eyes are plugged into brains.
>Modernist art is a form of aesthetic idealism, which is a form of alienation of the people from their reality. This is because aesthetic idealism negates objective existence and the significance of reality and reduces it to subjective impressions, emotions, and fantasies.Art is not science. Art is something where we give expression to our feelings. And the phenomenology of "the real" conceptually is not a through-line of sense-certainty either.
>Aesthetic realism serves socialism because it connects the proletariat with their reality. Historically, aesthetic realism supplants aesthetic idealism after the proletarian revolution because the latter is more compatible with the interests and needs of the proletariat.Realism is oppressive to the proletariat because as a mode of self-relation it qualifies them as "workers" and nothing greater, which is the alienation Man experiences under capitalism - where socialism is supposed to be the recognition of Man-as-Man, or the completion of his species-being.
A classless society should aim for a culture that is classless in its dimensions.
No.1736342
>>1736336> In Communist China, the Communist Party of China has administered the creation of humanity's most innovative music and other arts.Sales pitch
No.1736344
>>1736284>I want to write about nonsense that has no relation real life whatsoever, and if you don't like it you just hate real artYikes
No.1736345
>>1736332This. Professional artists should learn a real job instead of whining about AI replacing them. If they are so easy to replace, they should learn new skills
No.1736346
>>1736344How does art become interesting unless it breaks with the norms of everyday people?
No.1736348
>>1736340Humanism is a disorder.
No.1736352
>>1736348Well i am just qualifying what art is.
You seem to think its a tool when what it is is a form of communication.
Why would anyone watch the godfather since its all made up with actors playing make-believe? Its form supersedes its content and so transcends to its own plane of self-relation. It becomes an autonomous thing which interacts with culture.
Art is for itself, not as a means to an end. Thats cynical and lifeless.
No.1736564
>>1736348Althusser loved abstract art too. Look up his essay on Cremonini.
No.1736639
>>1736285>What combines the workerist left and reactionary right is their disdain for jazz and abstract expressionism, which is a codefied resentment of blacks and jews at heartYes, we were talking about this on the /music/ thread, in the context that there were racists who were going so far as to call our favourite hip hop producers "looters" and other slurs I don't want to repeat when, ironically or not, white prog rock artists were some of the first to utilize sampling as an art form. It's pretty hard to deny these sentiments ("rap isn't music", "sampling is lazy") are entirely racially-coded.
>>1736305If anything, the people listening to Pete Seeger are HIPSTERS in Williamsburg and Echo Park. People who drive tractors don't want to listen to someone who was a card-carrying CPUSA member sing covers of Joe Hill songs.
>>1736313>>1736317>>1736323What I find telling is how New Afrikans and the indigenous always know who their enemy is, be it rich white guys, the cops, landlords, etc. They don't need to be "educated" the way white working-class people do. The mere fact Farmer Fred from rural Indiana thinks Gabby the grad student is a bigger threat to his existence than Wall St says a lot about the mentality of whites.
>>1736336>These genres have come about and become established thanks to the degenerate, CIA-cultivated conditions of capitalism.Yet hip hop and punk are overwhelmingly what the younger generations are listening to and where all the political radicalism takes place. The people in America who are the most inclined towards destroying capitalism are equally as critical of the mere existence of "America" as an entity and absolutely despise the military. What works in China in terms of artistic realism glorifying the military/state or whatever will ultimately have almost no appeal among American leftists. I don't even believe white people who are patriotic and pro-military will have any part in the revolution to begin with.
No.1736676
>>1736352The obsession with utilitarianism from workerists is cringe TBQH.
No.1736692
>>1736639>The mere fact Farmer Fred from rural Indiana thinks Gabby the grad student is a bigger threat to his existence than Wall St says a lot about the mentality of whites.Because Farmer Fred has a vested interest in preserving the social hierarchies on which he’s on top.
“Socialism is when patriarchal family and Jesus.”
No.1736700
>>1736639Farmer Fred has like 50 latineiano farm hands. Most ruralfags are actually petite bourgeoisie.
No.1737153
>>17331456:20 – Why would you demand all copies of a single be destroyed due to an unlicensed sample, rather than keeping it and taking the royalties? Makes no fucking sense.
No.1737270
>>1737153From what I can tell, the album was released on a small indie label and they removed it because they couldn't deal with the lawsuit or something.
No.1737279
>>1736700More proof this bullshit is entirely culture war and not actual class analysis.
No.1737290
>>1737287>fuck copyright<embed from youtube which gives youtube more traffic when you watch it???
No.1737292
>>1737290allow me to show you how to share a video online from youtube (unless it's something you dont even want to download since it's garbage)
called downloading it and sharing the file
No.1737681
>>1737636>shitty eceleb idpol drama>>1736639>blatantly retarded idpol "muh black have natural class consciousness, muh white are naturally reactionnary"back to isg
>hip hop and punk are overwhelmingly what the younger generations are listening todoubt.jpg
pop will always be the most popular
>where all the political radicalism takes placeplenty of hip pop disconnected from politics, and plenty of radicalism elsewhere
>these sentiments ("rap isn't music", "sampling is lazy") are entirely racially-codedbullshit, thats just old people disconnected from younger styles. My grandma shit on electronic music too and its not because of race.
>>1736340abstract modern art was promoted by glowies because it was inherently less subversive. Also great to make money and speculate without needing some actual skilled artist.
Art was closely linked to craftmanship (ie something that actually takes efforts and skills) until the modern art bullshit
No.1737687
>>1737681Modern art also takes craftsmanship, dumb dumb. The USSR even had a flourishing modern art movement early on.
No.1737700
>>1736639>>1737681Irony is that PatSocs and the old CPUSA seem to have the sane view of jazz and modern art as Adorno, who actually was a glowie who wrote for glowie publications.
No.1737750
>>1737636Maupin is angry he’s not the one leading the pro-Palestine/new anti-war movement. He thinks because his bills are literally being paid by Russian state and Iranian state media he’s entitled to be the big face of activism. Then again, he’s aspergic af and has little to no self-awareness.
No.1737916
Question: if we decide royalties are bad and should be abolished how would musicians get paid now that streaming is the main slut e of justice consumption and album sales don’t mean anything anymore?
No.1737921
>>1737636>>1737681>>>1737636>>shitty eceleb idpol dramaI would not even call it idpol drama. Maupin is a chauvinist and can't help himself. This post of this is far from being his only screed against this video alone. If you go to the comment section of the original, over hour long video, you can find at least five of his comments where he says something along the lines of "this video doesn't once mention anything about Lenin" or "they won't even talk about Lenin's books." He is lying, by the way, because the video features discussion of Lenin's theory, the participants of the discussion talk about the State and Revolution, "Left Wing" Communism: An Infantile Disorder, as well as more recent texts about Lenin's theory of imperialism like Imperialism in the 21st century. It is very clearly the case that Maupin is trying to discourage people from watching the video by trying to misrepresent its content.
No.1737944
>>1737921Again, Maupin hates women of colour and is deeply resentful *he* isn’t the one leading the new anti-war movement. Since this thread is about music at this point I’d equate him to the old boomer rock star trying to desperately make a comeback oblivious to how and why the times have changed. Maupin is washed up and simply trying to relive his “glory days” from Occupy.
No.1738125
>>1737681Not all great art has to be "subversive"
>Art was closely linked to craftmanship (ie something that actually takes efforts and skills) until the modern art bullshitI mean if youre talking about a dot of paint in the middle of a canvas i understand, but "modern art" is all art that is just modern, like films, music, statues and so on.
Theres also still great painting going on.
No.1738137
>>1738125I’d like to know how tankie realism art is in any way “subversive” when it’s simply glorification if “the grind”.
No.1738211
>>1737681>>blatantly retarded idpol "muh black have natural class consciousness, muh white are naturally reactionnary"You are a fool if you think the vanguard is going to come from white, petit-bourgeois Trump supporters. As others have pointed out, when white people demand social change they do so because they feel their privileges are slipping and want to prop up the old status quo. When colonized peoples demand social change they do so because they've never had liberation and thus have no interest in preserving anything. We only have to look at American history to see how easily whites have been bought off by social democratic gibs.
>plenty of hip pop disconnected from politics, and plenty of radicalism elsewhereLike what? You think Oliver Anthony is some great revolutionary artist?
Meanwhile, the most legendary rap song of all time is quite literally an anti-capitalist anthem.
>bullshit, thats just old people disconnected from younger styles.Why are hip hop and punk so singled out then compare to, say, EDM? Maybe because Black and Latino youth invented hip hop and Jews were heavily instrumental in the creation of punk, no? Maybe because both genres were made by people on the margins of society who were disconnected from the wider mainstream, and thus the wider mainstream saw them as something threatening?
>abstract modern art was promoted by glowies because it was inherently less subversive. Jackson Pollock was literally a communist who made his art because he hated bourgeois values. He had no idea the org giving him funding was CIA-backed, if that's what you're wondering.
>Art was closely linked to craftmanship (ie something that actually takes efforts and skills) until the modern art bullshitIn what ways does modern art not require craftsmanship?
Oh boy, we had this exact debate in the context of music sampling in the other thread. Yeah, I'm supposed to believe chopping and screwing a track on an Akai MPC to make something totally new out of something old is somehow less of an art than making any other form of music. By that logic, flipping an article of clothing you found at a thrift store into something better and more stylish takes less talent than making something totally from scratch.
>>1737700>>1737750>>1737921>>1737944Maupin was taught communism by a bunch of Red Diaper Babies and old school Marcyites. I'm not being ageist here, I'm more so making the point that the type of Marxism-Leninism he promotes was already highly outdated by the time he was taught it. His goal is to revive the Browderite CPUSA (mixed with some LaRouche bullshit) which is exactly why he's always on a nostalgia trip. He'd rather prop up Depression-era folk songs as "TRUE proletarian art" than indulge in art/music that expresses the concerns and struggles of the working-class TODAY. It's also why he's so big to dismiss any Marxist theory that comes post-1960 and insists all of it is one big deception played on the left by the CIA. He fedjackets Fanon, about half of the original BPP, etc. for this reason: any leftism that isn't 1930s CPUSA "must" be a trick. And by dismissing it all as a trick, he doesn't need to truly debunk it or explore it or be intellectually rigorous. I remember one livestream he did a while ago where someone asked him about Adorno's Negative Dialectics. All Maupin said in response was that Adorno was CIA. He didn't say anything about the contents of the book or what Adorno's critiques of Kant, Hegel, and Heidegger were, just that Adorno was being funded by glowies. You see the problem here?
No.1738225
>>1737921>>1737681Here's the video for everyone to judge for themselves.
If you check the comments you'll see Maupin is under every other one trying to get attention.
No.1738278
>>1738211>It's also why he's so big to dismiss any Marxist theory that comes post-1960 and insists all of it is one big deception played on the left by the CIA. He fedjackets Fanon, about half of the original BPP, etc. for this reason: any leftism that isn't 1930s CPUSA "must" be a trick. And by dismissing it all as a trick, he doesn't need to truly debunk it or explore it or be intellectually rigorous. I remember one livestream he did a while ago where someone asked him about Adorno's Negative Dialectics. All Maupin said in response was that Adorno was CIA. He didn't say anything about the contents of the book or what Adorno's critiques of Kant, Hegel, and Heidegger were, just that Adorno was being funded by glowies. You see the problem here?Anti-intellectualism. Classic of populists.
No.1738283
>>1738211Weren't like half of BLM protesters white? Yes the reactionary Trumpists are worthless but at least 25% of white people are socdem or further left
No.1738285
>>1738283I think the point is more that white leftists are far less militant than activists of colour.
No.1738286
>>1738285Ehhh I mean is there really evidence of that?
No.1738338
>>1738333<If you are against RACE-BASED intellectual property, then consider what a person of the WRONG RACE might do!Counterpoint: Go fuck yourself.
No.1738339
>>1738333>>1738338cultural appropriation is good
all that is solid melts into air
all that is holy is profaned
etc
No.1738960
>>1738333This article is from ten years ago. I assumed it was written today about the Palestine protests.
No.1739666
>>1736639>It's pretty hard to deny these sentiments ("rap isn't music", "sampling is lazy") are entirely racially-coded.It's not a race thing. Sampling has made music far more generic and disposable since you're recycling stuff that was already made and don't need to hire real musicians.
Notice how nearly all the tracks in your video are from the 90s and early 2000s. This was back before FL Studio where if a producer wanted to distort something in a track like making a vocal sample say something it's not saying or changing the tempo on the drums or whatever they'd have to do it manually with a sampler and turn tables. Nowadays all of that can be done by someone with zero talent whatsoever by clicking a few buttons in FLS. Most sampling in pop music and rap sounds like utter shit too.
No.1739719
>>1738333Why would anyone be upset about this? China has done more for Palestine than any other country.
No.1739794
>>1733087How is IP not abused in China?
No.1739797
>>1739794https://english.www.gov.cn/archive/laws_regulations/2014/08/23/content_281474982987430.htmCopyright Law of the People’s Republic of China (2010 Amendment)
Article 1
<This Law is enacted, in accordance with the Constitution, for the purposes of protecting the copyright of authors in their literary, artistic and scientific works and the copyright-related rights and interests, of encouraging the creation and dissemination of works which would contribute to the construction of socialist spiritual and material civilization, and of promoting the development and prosperity of the socialist culture and science.China’s approach to intellectual property is not based on the bourgeois notion of private property, but on the socialist condition of serving the public interest. China’s intellectual property system is not a tool for monopoly and exploitation, but a weapon for socialist innovation and competition against monopoly capital.
No.1739930
>>1738339This.
Nationalists get fucked. Don't care what 👻>race👻 you are, tradfag.
No.1739931
>>1739719>China has done more for Palestine than any other country.*shoots you in Arabic*
What
has China even done for Palestine? They give me Switzerland vibes at best.
No.1739937
>>1739931That's the schizo that thinks China is a communist paradise.
No.1740101
>>1739946Thanks comrade.
although of course, the Telegraph article is shit ;)
<A QLZ87 automatic grenade launcher, described by a defence expert as 'lethal'The optimist in me would like to think the Chinese are trying to assist the Palestinian struggle, but based on their track record I'm more inclined to believe they're either just porkin' (e.g. would trade them with anyone given a good price, and as the article suggested it could even be Iran forwarding them) or possibly even done against China's will (the article emphasises positive China-Israel relations in the past two decades). China seem to avoid political/ideological interference with smaller countries outside the Pacific region, see their trade with African countries (then again, I might be mistaken)
No.1740104
>>1740101Bourgeois ideology
No.1740351
>>1739946So is China actually arming Hamas or are those weapons just lying around and being trafficked into Gaza?
No.1740370
>>1740351That's your job to find out, agent
No.1740434
>>1739931Why the South Yemen flag and not the Houthi flag?
No.1740447
>>1736285Yup, "degenerate art".
No.1740519
>>1740447And it says a lot that they don’t believe working people have the capacity to enjoy jazz or abstract art, as if there are no Black workers or Jewish workers.
No.1740521
>>1740519reported for idpol
No.1740541
>>1740521Nothing I said was idpol.
No.1740549
>>1740434South Yemen was the only state in the Middle East that was ruled by a Marxist-Leninist party
No.1740553
>>1740541> they don’t believe working people have the capacity to enjoy jazz or abstract art, as if there are no Black workers or Jewish workers.You imply that the working people's ability to enjoy jazz and abstract art is proven due to the existence of black and jewish workers.
No.1740564
>>1740549Houthis aren’t South Yemen. South Yemen wasn’t even majority Shia.
No.1740759
>>1740434to make people think
No.1740762
>>1736285The Workerist cannot stand Ed, Edd 'n' Eddy. I now use this as a pleb filter when talking politics.
No.1740931
>>1740762I honestly thought that show was very anti-capitalist.
No.1741156
I think art reactionaries should be treated the same way as political reactionaries
No.1741420
There will be no art under communism
No.1741497
>>1738225holy shit that was terrible and would still be terrible if white males were having that conversation. i got brainrot listening to this drivel.
>>1739722>(you) againcan't wait for you to post 5 j dilla beat tapes to 'prove' SAMPLING IS AN ART GUIZE.
>>1739946by this logic ukraine is helping palesitne.
https://en.sputniknews.africa/20231009/nato-supplied-ukrainian-arms-used-in-israel-will-spread-further-russian-security-council-1062656752.html No.1741514
>>1741513been through this (probably several times)
look in the china thread
No.1741516
>>1741514Lemme guess, "pragmatism"?
No.1741517
>>1741516m8 just read
I'm not here to constantly repeat stuff to idiots
No.1741859
>>1739722My point, which you deliberately missed, is that anyone can use a program like FL Studio to replicate all those sampling techniques it took skills to do 25 years ago. Sampling is a cancer on popular music and a quick look at the Billboard charts should prove this. It makes artists more disposable and music far more generic.
No.1741886
>>1741859In the 90s when digital typography programs were really coming into their own, it lead to a lot of disruption in the typography industry. Older workers with years of experience, technical expertise, and actual artistic ability were given the boot. There was also the wholesale destruction of tons of typographical equipment like presses, fonts, and the sorts of machines used to create type on the fly before digital production and printing made them unnecessary.
So on the one hand, stuff like the adobe suite makes typesetting technically more accessible, but on the other you have what basically amounts to slash and burn clear-cutting of an entire artistic industry to "cut costs." It's pretty horrific.
No.1741934
>>1741886Technological development is inevitable. You sound like a Luddite.
No.1741989
>>1741497The Ukraine story was debunked I believe. Russia has actually called for an end to the war.
No.1741990
>>1741859Bro there isn't even that many possible types of chords in the world. It's inevitable that music will retread similar ground
No.1741999
>>1741934Illiterate dipshit.
No.1742331
>>1741859Dunno what all the hate over sampling is over. Sampling can make old obscure tracks sound new and fresh again. Even better when it’s really obscure shit being sampled.
No.1742496
At this point, the internet has made IP and copyright obsolete. Just the fact so many YouTube videos get flagged for alleged copyright infringement says everything. It's basically a game of wack-a-mole.
No.1742516
>>1741497I'm more amused at the fact you'd get pleb filtered by something like vidrel.
>>1742496I'm old (35 to be exact) and was using YouTube from day one. Back then people would post entire movies chopped up into 10-minute segments on YouTube. They'd post entire episodes of Animaniacs or some other 90s cartoons on there too. The whole website was the Wild West with little to no real moderation. It was around mid 2010 when YouTube began taking all of that down on copyright claims.
No.1742517
>>1741497>by this logic ukraine is helping palesitne.it would be based as shit if it were true
No.1742544
>>1742516>Back then people would post entire movies chopped up into 10-minute segments on YouTube. They'd post entire episodes of Animaniacs or some other 90s cartoons on there too. The whole website was the Wild West with little to no real moderation. It was around mid 2010 when YouTube began taking all of that down on copyright claims.Tell me more about early yt.
No.1742576
>>1742544A lot of the stuff you'd see on YouTube from 2006-2010ish was very similar to the kind of stuff you'd see on Adult Swim around the same time, e.g. film students making sketch comedy shorts, raunchy homemade cartoons, that kind of stuff. Lots of gonzo journalism. I remember watching a Mexican immigrant activist who would record his encounters with racist Minutemen. I also remember watching lots of lectures from Michael Parenti and Noam Chomsky back then. YouTube was full of them. There was also the feature of making video responses, which created a more conversational aspect of YouTube whereby users would engage in 16-video long debates of responses to one another over some topic like capitalism vs. socialism or Israel vs. Palestine.
It's very anti-feminist of me to say this, but I strongly believe what truly killed the internet was the Amanda Todd affair. What happened to her was horrible and disgusting, but the fallout from her case lead to Big Tech finally having a pretext to censor the internet. All of a sudden you needed a phone number to make a YouTube or Twitter account, which was basically a way for those sites to crack down on people who would make hundreds of troll and sock accounts. Plus internet censorship started going into overdrive. Didn't help that everyone on YouTube wanted to be monetized and monetization standards got stricter and stricter overtime. Nowadays zoomers can't even say "suicide" or "death", they have to say "un-alived". Pathetic.
No.1742654
>>1736336When tankies make better music than hip hop and punk I'll listen.
No.1742708
>>1742707Oh yeah well, everything China does is socialist because the infallible CPC says everything China does is socialist!
No.1742709
>>1739797>>1742707Honestly though: why are dengbeetles so fucking braindead?
No.1742727
>>1742709You are brain-dead, because you fail to understand the historical and social necessity of IP law under socialism.
>>1742707Chinese law re-defines nothing because Chinese Communist law is exact in its definitions of the material conditions of the all legal aspects of the Communist mode of production.
No.1742729
>>1742726all your posts are shit and you cry about china daily, like a baby. i love seeing you cry in the face of the glory of Communist China
No.1742734
>>1742726You are a fuckwit, utopian socialist. You use the flag to hide what you really are
No.1743107
>>1742721Boots Riley is an anarchist not a tankie.
No.1743109
>>1742729>>1742734Your entire "argument" comes down to: "China claims to be socialist, therefore everything it does is socialist."
You provide zero evidence except regurgitating CPC press releases.
No.1743374
>>1734677You're a disgrace to the flag, pal.
No.1743660
>>1733087>>1733169>>1733173>>1735556>>1742727>>1742729(You) are by far the worst person on this entire website.
No.1743665
>>1743109i apologize for being baited by liberals
No.1743670
>>1743665Anti-revisionists aren't liberals.
No.1743709
>>1743670Liberals reduce the applicable, flexible, and revolutionary unity of Marxist theory and praxis down to a static, untenable, counter-revolutionary husk of pure ideology.
No.1743712
>>1743709And guess what? China still isn't socialist anymore.
No.1743721
>>1743712When did China stop being socialist?
No.1743724
>>1743168It has an unpredictable kick drum.
>>1743721The minute Mao shook hands with Nixon.
No.1743725
>>1743721Deng even admitted China was moving away from socialism. Black cat vs. white cat shit.
No.1743729
>>1743725Please provide the source so I can see if you are twisting his words by taking them out of context
No.1743789
>>1739666>It's not a race thing. "Rap isn't music" and "sampling is stealing" are the modern equivalent of calling something "degenerate art" insofar that it's racially-motivated dogwhistling. I have never seen a predominantly white genre that uses sampling (prog rock, industrial) get the same shit as rap does.
No.1744214
>>1743721>>1743724Why did China repeatedly take America’s side in regards to international policy against the Soviets?
Why did China start supporting Zionism under Mao?
Why did China support Pinochet?
Why did China support the Taliban?
>>1743789Idpol nonsense. There’s a reason you only see rap in capitalist countries. Real socialist states teach their children classical music and traditional folk songs which speak to the masses not “underground” garbage which only speaks to the lumpen and ultimately serves the global elites.
No.1744227
>>1744214Holy shit, Adorno, you're alive??
No.1744230
>>1744214>China hater>ranting about traditionNew type of retard dropped?
No.1744281
>>1744227Ironic because Adorno composed actual outsider art too.
No.1744508
>>1744214Petit-bourgeois idealist detected
No.1744566
>>1744549Incorrect.
>How would IP laws and copyright be handled under socialism?The correct answer is that PRC's copyright law is the prime example of socialist copyright law.
No.1744568
>>1744566Why would China's copyright law exist in a socialist America or anywhere else for that matter?
No.1744609
>>1744568>Why would China's copyright law exist in a socialist America or anywhere else for that matter?Chinese socialist copyright law is suited to the unique conditions of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics; therefore, Chinese socialist copyright law would be unsuitable for the conditions of this supposed American socialism. There is no such thing as a socialist America, or anywhere else, for that matter. The only socialist country is Communist China. Chinese socialist copyright law exists to promote the scientific and cultural development of China's socialist mode of production and also to promote the global influence of socialism. Chinese socialist copyright law incentivizes cultural creators to contribute to the collective progress of socialist society. Chinese socialist copyright law explicitly declares that intellectual property is neither absolute nor inviolable and is subordinate to the interests of the People. In every intellectual property dispute in China, the people’s court rules in favor of the proletariat. Communist China’s socialist system of intellectual property is the most advanced and progressive in human history.
No.1744619
>>1744609>The only socialist country is Communist China. So the DPRK, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba aren't communist?
No.1744634
>>1744619>So the DPRK, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba aren't communist?Not to the extent that Communist China is
No.1744640
>>1744634>Not to the extentExplain showing real examples and not buzzwords.
No.1744643
>>1737921If you saw Maupin's livestream tonight you'd see he's become fully unhinged. ALL he was talking about for most of the stream was how much he things Taryn Fivek and Ben Norton (both of them former comrades of his) are "evil". No really, he used the word "evil" to describe them. Then later on he said he's no longer a Marxist because the world has outgrown Marxism and most Marxists today are more interested in Black liberation and feminism than they are in economics. At the end he said he openly admitted he wants to form a church rather than a leftist org.
No.1744644
>>1744640The PRC has developed the highest extant form of socialism, thanks to their continuous revolution of the forces of production. The other socialist nations look to the theories and applications of Communism in China to develop their socialism.
No.1744647
>>1732856The thread should have ended with this.
No.1744649
>>1744643>Then later on he said he's no longer a Marxist because the world has outgrown Marxism and most Marxists today are more interested in Black liberation and feminism than they are in economics. This should be all you need to know about his horrible politics.
No.1744650
>>1744647Incorrect. That utopian conclusion arouses no further investigation of the reality of IP law under the socialist mode of production.
No.1744652
>>1744650Why should anyone care about China's current IP laws? Since when does China dictate what socialism will look like in every other country? The Comintern no longer exists buddy.
No.1744654
>>1744652>Why should anyone care about China's current IP laws?Because, Chinese copyright law is the answer to OP's question:
>>1732849 >How would IP laws and copyright be handled under socialism?>Since when does China dictate what socialism will look like in every other country?All other socialist nations look to China for methods of developing a form of Communism that works.
No.1744655
>>1744654>All other socialist nations look to China for methods of developing a form of Communism that works.50 years ago they also looked to the USSR. What's your point? On what basis would a socialist America or socialist Canada need to look to China when there's homegrown socialist theory being developed here?
No.1744657
>>1744656Why would socialists in a hyper-developed country need to imitate China when material conditions are very different?
No.1744664
>>1744657>Why would socialists in a hyper-developed country need to imitate China when material conditions are very different?Conditions are very different between the stagnant bourgeois economies and China's communist mode of production. Communist China's mode of production is the most highly developed in the world. Over the course of its lifetime, Communist China, as a proletarian dictatorship, has revolutionized and centralized the means of production to a greater extent than all bourgeois dictatorships combined within the same time period.
No.1744668
>>1744664>Communist China's mode of production is the most highly developed in the world. Okay. So buzzwords. So we can dismiss this.
"Support the troops because the troops are good!"
No.1744693
>>1744664>Communist China's mode of production is the most highly developed in the world.
>Communist China, as a proletarian dictatorship, has revolutionized and centralized the means of production to a greater extent than all bourgeois dictatorships combined within the same time period.Give concrete examples of these so I know your hyperbolic statements are actually true and not mindless bluffing.
No.1744695
>>1744649How does Maupin think communism as a whole is “outdated” yet clings to his 1930s Browderism bullshit so much?
No.1745028
>>1732856Why is this not the last reply?
No.1745137
>>1745028Because that Chinese hasbara fucker won’t shut up about how every nation needs to be like China
No.1745141
>>1745137>ThingNoticer finally leavesyay
>screaming WestoidNoticers take his place in every threadoh
No.1745248
>>1744652>>1744656If anything, socialism in America will be anarchist given that anarchism has a much more foundational tradition in America than ML or whatever system China is. The first radical leftists in America were individualist anarchists, not Marxists. That tradition continues to this day.
No.1745273
>>1745028Because, ignorance must be rectified and truth must be sought from material fact.
>>1745137All Communists speak the truth about the glory and achievements of China's Communist mode of production, which is the working model for all Communists to follow.
No.1745275
anon stole my image. This is a fucking travesty
No.1745323
>>1736336>>1736340I think a much better question is, why is it that reducing peoples’ existence to that of a generic “worker” overtakes everything else as the way towards building socialism? Why hyperfixate on ensuring everyone understands their place as a “worker” over every other aspect of the human spirit. Why can’t socialist nations embrace outsider abstract art and jazz/hip hop as a form of moving society towards communism?
And honestly, do you really think most people in contemporary China view themselves only as “workers?” There are nepo babies from the Mainland (most notably Shanghai) who are little more than Chinese Paris Hiltons; obviously they don’t see their primary existence as being “workers” (inb4 “the existence of Chinese nepo babies is fully in-line with the Marxism-Leninism of the CPC”).
No.1745340
>>1745273>All Communists speak the truth about the glory and achievements of China's Communist mode of production, which is the working model for all Communists to follow.Bro, you really need to stop making bold statements like this that have little to no backing. “China is the greatest nation on earth because everyone important says it’s the greatest nation on earth.” Now replace “China” with any other country and the statement is nonetheless the same.
No.1745577
>>1744214>Real socialist states teach their children classical musicNot a fucking contradiction, settler.
https://rockthebells.com/articles/hip-hop-classical-music/>>1744281Here's some of Adorno's work in case you're curious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NOmJE-HzMENGL I should ask one of my producerbro friends to sample and flip one of these tracks.
>>1744634Laos and Vietnam are in many ways less revisionist than modern China.
>>1744648Based based
>>1744650IP has zero reason to exist under socialism. It's literally a tool to create monopoly.
>>1744687Listening to the original track should make you appreciate how it was flipped and distorted, dumbdumb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sraKulMHZwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nO7IA1DeeI>>1744695Because Maupin doesn't think in terms of being theoretically strong. He thinks in terms of whatever is his special interest du jour. That's why he's incoherent most of the time and defends individuals like LaRouche and Dugin who have nothing to do with one another and often times contradict.
No.1745597
>>1745323>(inb4 “the existence of Chinese nepo babies is fully in-line with the Marxism-Leninism of the CPC”).If you don't believe this, you're racist. Unironically. Eat yourself, burger
No.1745598
>>1745597Kek, how does the existence of vapid rich kids further the building of communism?
No.1745599
>>1745598By building up the human capital productive forces. The human capital productive forces are the proof of eastern communism's superiority to the western degenerate labor aristocracy and its collaboration with the celebrity class for common prosperity. This will involve overtaking Hollywood as the producer of global socialist spectacle.
No.1745600
>>1745599>This will involve overtaking Hollywood as the producer of global socialist spectacle.This is a joke, right?
No.1745606
>>1745600Not at all. The global socialist spectacle is the dfialecital sublimation of the capitalist spectacle vis a vis the retooling of degenerate capitalist spectacle created by the westernization of the cinematic apparatus. The spiritual westernization of the east will be erased
No.1745607
>>1745606"Chinese nepo babies aren't REALLY imitating superficial indulgent western culture because they aren't western."
Serious mental gymnastics here.
No.1745608
>>1745607Not at all. The creation into a model to lead the masses have purged them from western degenerate individualism (spiritually, through the discipline of first-stage socialist beauty standards)
No.1745611
>>1745609Socialist greed is not the same as capitalist greed. Socialist greed is the superstructural corollary of the Dengist control of market force.
No.1745613
>>1745611Your posts are performance art. Good job.
No.1745614
>>1745611>"Socialist greed"Oxymoron
No.1745615
>>1745614Not at all. So claim such is idealism.
No.1745616
>>1745615 (me)
Greed cannot have a stable definition because this is the fixity that dialectics ceases.
No.1745617
>>1745615You obviously don't understand what idealism is if you keep throwing around that term when faced with legitimate criticism.
No.1745618
>>1745617Not at all. It says so in Lenin.
No.1745619
>>1745611>>1745615>>1745616>>1745618You sound closer to a post-Kantian or postmodernist than a Marxist if you think changing the definitions of words changes the material reality.
>"this chocolate with almonds isn't REALLY chocolate because it's chocolate with almonds!" No.1745620
>>1745618Give us the source from Lenin.
>>1745619>post-Kantian or postmodernist than a Marxist Holy shit, you beat me to it.
No.1745622
>>1745619>>1745620I don't need to. It's basic dialectics, westoid.
No.1745625
>>1745623Unlimited genocide on the western world.
No.1745626
>>1745625 (me)
We have to set off Chernoybl again
No.1745627
>>1745625Are you actually Chinese by chance?
No.1745629
>>1745627No, but I have them on my Ancestry.com.
No.1745631
>>1745629What's your nationality and ethnic background then? I'm not asking you to doxx yourself obviously, I'm just curious to know what cultural paradigm you grew up immersed in.
No.1745633
>>1745631You see, I grew up in
dude I'm fucking pulling your leg No.1745701
>>1745323>I think a much better question is, why is it that reducing peoples’ existence to that of a generic “worker” overtakes everything else as the way towards building socialism? Why hyperfixate on ensuring everyone understands their place as a “worker” over every other aspect of the human spirit. Why can’t socialist nations embrace outsider abstract art and jazz/hip hop as a form of moving society towards communism?It's almost like the workerist left plays into the fears of the right that under socialism everyone is only valued as an economic number rather than a full human being. I've gotten into many debates before with religious people who make arguments like this.
No.1745705
>>1741513Anonymous source, LMFAO
No.1745760
>>1745273Tere's no place for copyright in socialism, I dunno what else to tell you. And China doesn't need your help, they'll get to it or they won't. There's your truth.
No.1745838
>>1745760>>1745760>Tere's no place for copyright in socialismWrong. Communist China is living proof of copyright under socialism.
>China doesn't need your help, they'll get to it or they won't. China is already socialist. There's your truth.
No.1745850
>>1745732The hard Rs are big with this one.
No.1745853
>>1745625This but unironically
No.1745873
>>1745323I find that labour fetishists of all kinds are people who dont really have a history of "hard work".
So to me, the aesthetics of martyrdom for an abstracted socialist state is the same fantasy of the servility of the third world in actual terms, where today we have slave labour propping up western powers, but under socialism its apparently "based". The idea of taking pride in being a "worker" is this same discourse.
I have a friend who thinks in the same way, that automating labour is bad because it gets rid of peoples useless positions as human automatons. As if theres dignity in being a flesh robot.
Automation gives prescience to a post-proletariat politics, but capital as we know from marx always needs to humiliate the human, by pretending it is in service of its enobling, like in feudal times.
We're still taught today as children to "work hard" not smart. Its just classcuckery. Hard work is for idiots who think the boss gives a shit about us.
No.1746177
>>1745873To be honest, the image of romantic martyrdom for socialism can actually invoke Utopian feelings, which is a good thing. What's shit is fetishizing "the grind" in the sense that you're defining workers as nothing more than cogs in the socialist machine whose existence is nothing more than building up muh productive forces.
>people who dont really have a history of "hard work".>where today we have slave labour propping up western powers, but under socialism its apparently "based". The idea of taking pride in being a "worker" is this same discourse.>We're still taught today as children to "work hard" not smart. Its just classcuckery. Agree with all of this, and I find it telling how economistic leftists think being able to produce a fuckton of meat and steel is somehow better for a society than intellect or creativity.
No.1746182
>>1745875Post wall socket
No.1746183
>>1745875I agree concurrently. There are countless subdivisions of ethnicity all of which dialectical materialism dictates MUST be ascribed a precise quantum of guilt for their complicity in the reproduction of the capitalist mode of production. Each of these quanta will be tallied up by a central committee and released as a total guilt count. The group that accumulates the most Sin Points will be forcefully castrated on live television in order to provide galvanizing Socialist Spectacle for the masses.
No.1746199
>>1746187There is no such thing as "chauvinism." Chauvinism is a lie created by the western bourgeoisie in order to justify itself. Therefore Chauvinism against the east doesn't exist. Nothing matters.
No.1746204
>>1746199>Nothing matters.Close but no cigar.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
No.1746206
>>1746204Agree totally. Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
I'm going to skullfuck a dolphin right now. You can't use bourgeois science to prove to me that it's a thinking, living thing.
No.1746214
>>1746212I can' hear you. This dolphin's blowhole feels so goddamn good. Oh god oh god oh god oh god
oH GOD OH GOD OH GOD FLIPPER FLIPPER YES FLIPPER YES GOD YEDAASSHURRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH=
No.1746215
>>1746183Does a specific scale exists for people of mixed ascendency?
No.1746219
>>1746199everytime someone says "this social paradigm/belief does not exist" it's fucking bullshit
these things exists because people believe in them, as long as people will believe in them they will exist, there's no point in saying it
it dosent exists because it's a belief and belifs will continue to exist as long as people will believe in them
No.1746220
>>1746215We will divide them up by blood quantum to specific sides of the family.
No.1746224
>>1746222but you didnt no have le funny tank on you
that wasnt you waaaa gonna ropemaxx tonight
No.1746352
>>1745732If I buy a vintage dress at a thrift store, then modify it using my superior sewing skills so it looks and feels very different, am I a “looter” according to you?
No.1746546
>>1746545I never thought about how Tiktok has gotten away with using copyrighted music for so long
No.1746547
>>1746546Also a ton of popular artists have their music distributed through UMG. Taylor Swift, Drake, Billie Eilish, it's over for anyone using their songs in videos.
No.1746574
>>1746545So are they muting the audio of all videos using the music, or just preventing users from using the music in the future?
No.1746624
>>1746212Althusser wrote favourably of abstract art, dumbdumb.
No.1746634
>>1746545Will this be enforced in Communist China or only in bourgeois jurisdictions?
No.1746636
>>1746634definately not in China. Westoids just censored themselves
No.1746643
>>1746634Communism is whatever China does, according to brainlets.
No.1746644
>>1746643China is Communist. Seethe, liberal.
No.1746651
>>1746644Whatever you say.
No.1746656
>>1734774FFS do you have a link to that story? That's infuriating.
No.1746668
>>1746664Disney needs to be destroyed TBH.
No.1746674
>>1746668it's pretty crazy how none of that anti-monopoly shit seems to apply anymore
No.1747816
>>1739722Damn that album was good. Too bad it got memory hole'd after covid due to the anti-vaxx bars.
No.1748904
>>1732856Anyone who disagrees with this is a revisionist capitalist roader.
No.1750407
>>1738211>And by dismissing it all as a trick, he doesn't need to truly debunk it or explore it or be intellectually rigorous.Which is why his books are so terribly written and make a lot of incorrect statements. It’s like Maupin thinks he shouldn’t have to do some damn research on a subject because he thinks the subject is already wrong. He’s arrogant as fuck.
No.1750999
>>1748916Fucking kek
>>1750407I read his Breadtube book and it was so full of historical and philosophical errors I wanted to rip it up out of sheer rage. Maupin loves making bold statements about things in which he knows nothing about. He got Sorel's philosophy entirely wrong, for example (Sorel was never an anarchist and even believed himself to be more Marxist than Marx).
No.1751571
>>1745732If you believe sampling is “looting” you have zero place to call yourself a leftist. Sane with all the other bootlickers ITT defending IP on the basis of “CHINA DOES IT”.
No.1751577
>>1748904ironically enough, those who oppose socialist copyright law are the ones impeding the development of socialist production
No.1751601
>>1750999>He got Sorel's philosophy entirely wrong, for example (Sorel was never an anarchist and even believed himself to be more Marxist than Marx).<implying he got it wrong and its not just intentional grifter nonsense. Anon.
No.1751630
>>1751571Chyna does it so it's good. They have more brain than you will ever have and have studied Marx harder than you ever will. Every single thing they do is socialist, what you do is reactionary.
No.1751646
>>1751630Copyright Law of the People’s Republic of China (2010 Amendment)
https://english.www.gov.cn/archive/laws_regulations/2014/08/23/content_281474982987430.htmArticle 1
<This Law is enacted, in accordance with the Constitution for the purposes of protecting the copyright of authors in their literary, artistic and scientific works and rights related to copyright, of encouraging the creation and dissemination of works which would contribute to the construction of socialist spiritual and material civilization, and of promoting the development and flourishing of socialist culture and sciences. No.1751650
>>1751646See. Clear reason why half of the posters in this thread should be re-educated if not purged. Capitalist concepts such as free software and piracy have poisoned their minds.
No.1751653
chinya has awweady estabwished communyism. If you say *twerks* Chinya *whispers to self* is a state ow (・`ω´・) has monyey ^-^ ow (・`ω´・) cwasses, you'we a cwypto-fascist, wike *screams* you awe evewy day.
No.1751659
>>1751652Read the fucking theory, idiot. China is Communist, as socialism is the lower phase of Communism.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/deng-xiaoping/1987/60.htm>The Thirteenth National Party Congress will explain what stage China is in: the primary stage of socialism. Socialism itself is the first stage of communism, and here in China we are still in the primary stage of socialism — that is, the underdeveloped stage. In everything we do we must proceed from this reality, and all planning must be consistent with it. No.1751670
>>1751667deng is too advanced for you. read this
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htmWill it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke?
No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society.
In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.
No.1751673
>>1751601Maupin knows Jack shit about anarchism. He’s even admitted to never having read anarchist thinkers.
No.1751709
The same way they do now. You would have a property interest in the exclusive dissemination of your IP. Because under communism there would be no market for capital, your ability to profit off your IP would be very limited. Revenue from IP usually comes in the form of merchandising or distribution (eg record labels and musicians or LEGO selling Star Wars toys). Under a state run economy your only option to distribute or merchandise would be through state run and owned corporations. Because the state owns these, the terms they offer IP holders for merchandising and distribution would be, directly or indirectly, determined democratically. Whether someone could make enough off of their IP to live off of it would be a policy decision and it’s likely that a socialist state would periodically change that policy according to economic realities (eg reducing revenues to IP holders during war in order for encourage participation in other industries). For inventions, the state would probably own those since there would be no market for an inventor to try to develop it into a product by himself.
No.1751852
>>1751768It is communism, not capitalism. Read more closely.
No.1751982
>>1751646>>1751650>>1751652>>1751659>>1751667>>1751670>>1751768>>1751852No one is buying the "China is still socialist and SUPER CLOSE to communism" hasbara anymore.
No.1752002
>>1751982What you believe does not matter. Only the facts matter and what you and the rest of the CIA-controlled liberal hive-mind believes does not change the facts. Come out of the cave and come to the light. Realize that China is socialist.
No.1752006
>>1752003trust the plan but unironically. china is the greatest hope for the future.
No.1752013
>>1752006Yes. Tell him that. China is not "super close" to communism because Communist China
IS Communism.
No.1752843
>>1752842Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is incomparable to the NEP. The notion that it is is absurd and liberalism
No.1755244
>>1752013Speaking of lmao
No.1756285
>>1755246Explain why you think it is so I can demonstrate why it isn't.
No.1756299
>>1756283Will you make a single post that isn't based on circular reasoning?
No.1756331
>>1751982I think most of the skepticism comes from Chinese authorities not speaking explicitly about the conditions which are going to make China full fledged socialist and not giving an estimated date for it.
No.1756347
china is fascist
No.1756348
china is communist
No.1756349
china is capitalist
No.1756350
China is anarchist
No.1756351
Can you help me kill myself?
No.1756355
China is whatever I need it to be to win any Internet argument.
No.1756975
>>1741497Sampling is an art the same way making collages is an art, or flipping an old piece of clothing is an art, or writing a parody of a well known movie or TV show is an art. There’s a right way and wrong way to do it but don’t dismiss it entirely.
No.1757296
>>1757294I mean he's basically an overt Nazi, I know he has mental issues but that's no excuse, if he can't control his own actions at all he should be in a facility
No.1757316
>>1757296Ye should collab with Boyd Rice, unironically.
No.1760216
>>1756355I've seen Hazbots unironically claim China is "Christian socialist" despite the fact China is officially state atheist.
No.1760316
>>1752842Bootleggers are the heroes we need but don’t deserve.
No.1763698
>>1736344Bronze by gold heard the hoofrons
Steelyringing imperthnthn thnthnthn
Chips, picking chips off rocky thumbnail, chips
Horrid! And gold flushed more
A husky fifenote blew
Blew. Blue bloom is on the
Gold pinnacled hair
A jumping rose on satiny breasts of satin
Rose of Castille
Trilling, trilling: I dolores
Peep! Who's in the… peepofgold?
Tink cried to bronze in pity
And a call, pure, long and throbbing. Longindying call
Decoy. Soft word. But look! The bright stars fade. O rose! Notes
Chirruping answer. Castille. The morn is breaking
Jingle jingle jaunted jingling
Coin rang. Clock clacked
Avowal. Sonnez. I could. Rebound of garter. Not leave thee
Smack. La cloche! Thigh smack. Avowal. Warm. Sweetheart
Goodbye!
When love absorbs. War! War! The tympanum
A sail! A veil awave upon the waves
When first he saw. Alice!
Full tup. Full throb
Warbling. Ah, lure! Alluring
Martha! Come!
Clapclop. Clipclap. Clappyclap
Goodgod henev erheard inall
A moonlight nightcall: far: far
I feel so sad. P. S. So lonely blooming
Listen!
The spiked and winding cold seahorn. Have you the? Each and
For other plash and silent roar
Pearls: when she. Liszt's rhapsodies. Hissss
No.1766450
>>1756355China is anarcho-stalinist-mutualist-situationist-althusserian-posadist.
No.1766458
>>1756299That isn't circular reasoning. It is plain fact. See the image for the logic which proves the fact
No.1766933
>>1766905Mao was as demented as Joe Biden by that point. What you've said means nothing.
No.1766941
>>1766933Cope and seethe.
No.1766945
Ofcourse there'd be no copyright. Copyright only makes sense if it's for profit.
No.1767457
>>1766945AKSHUALLY profit under socialism furthers socialism because it's happening under socialism so therefore socialism.
No.1768213
>>1767457Circular reasoning is the gift that keeps in giving because it’s a gift that keeps on giving!
No.1768219
>>1767457>>1768213Straw man fallacy.
Value in Communist China is distributed according to scientific socialist laws and methods that govern the development of productive forces and the relations of production. By applying scientific socialism, the Communist Party of China achieves common prosperity of the People and accelerates the transition from the primary stage of socialism, which is the lowest phase of Communism, to the next phase of societal development with Socialism with Chinese Characteristics.
In capitalism, surplus value accumulates to the capitalists. In Chinese Communism, surplus value is distributed back to the People. See these images for undeniable proof of this fact.
Stop with your fallacies, you idiots who say nothing. Choke on the truth. This is not circular reasoning. Look at the material evidence in the images.
No.1779117
uygha is you stupid?
No.1779118
>>1732849It will be BONERFUCKED. WITH A GUN!
No.1779121
>>1744609We gonna diddle you little uyghа
No.1779127
>>1768219>Value in Communist China is distributed according to scientific socialist laws and methods that govern the development of productive forces and the relations of production.Which are?
No.1779160
>>1779127Prepare for an influx of buzzwords, circular reasoning, and sloganeering.
No.1779177
>>1779127THE NATURE OF ECONOMIC LAWS UNDER SOCIALISM
https://www.marxists.org/subject/economy/authors/pe/pe-ch29.htm(1) The economic laws of socialism are objective laws, independent of the will and consciousness of man. They express the relations of fraternal cooperation and socialist mutual aid of workers freed from exploitation. The economic laws of socialism do not operate as a blind and destructive force: they are recognised and utilised by socialist society. The Communist Party and the Socialist State base their economic policy on the economic laws of socialism.
(2) The basic economic law of socialism determines all the main aspects and main processes of development of the socialist mode of production, the purpose of socialist production and the means to achieve this purpose. The essential features and requirements of the basic economic law of socialism are the securing of the maximum satisfaction of the constantly rising material and cultural requirements of the whole of society, through the continuous expansion and perfecting of production on the basis of higher techniques.
(3) In socialist economy the growth of requirements (the purchasing power) of the masses is the motive force of socialist production and drives it forward. The continuous growth of socialist production is the material foundation for the steady growth of consumption by the people and the growth of new requirements. The priority development of the production of means of production is the essential condition for the continuous growth of socialist production. Socialism ensures the steady development of advanced techniques, essential to the continuous growth of perfecting the socialist production and the ever fuller satisfaction of the growing needs of the working people.
(4) Corresponding to the constantly increasing mass of products for oneself and products for society, the real incomes of the working people are constantly raised. Socialism means a constant improvement in the working and living conditions of the people. It opens up the fullest opportunities for cultural development and makes the entire wealth of technique, science and culture the possession of the whole people.
(5) Expressing the vital interests of the people, the Socialist State guided by the Communist Party develops on an ever-increasing scale its economic, organising, cultural and educational activity, directed towards securing a continuous growth of production and a steady rise in the level of welfare and culture of the people. The development of the socialist mode of production proceeds through the surmounting of contradictions and difficulties. Relying on scientific knowledge of objective economic laws and making use of them, the Socialist State assures the victory of the new and progressive over the old in all spheres of the economy, and directs the development of society along the road to communism.
SOCIALIST ECONOMIC LAW OF DISTRIBUTION
https://www.marxists.org/subject/economy/authors/pe/pe-ch33.htm(1) In socialist society wages are the monetary expression of the worker's share of that portion of the social product which is paid out by the State in accordance with the quantity and quality of each worker's labour. Arising from the requirements of the basic economic law of socialism and the law of distribution according to work, the Socialist State plans the wages of the various categories of workers in each particular period. It does so in such a way that alongside the growth of the national economy and increased labour productivity, the wage level is systematically increased.
(2) Wages, correctly organised, are a powerful motive force of socialist production. They encourage workers to improve their skill, continuously to improve the technique and organisation of production, and to raise the productivity of social labour. Piece-rates in socialist society most efficiently combine the personal material interests of the worker with national economic interests. The following systems of piece-rates are used in socialist society: simple piece-rates, progressive piece-rates, and piece-rates-plus-bonuses. Time-rates depend on the length of time worked and the skill of the worker.
(3) The purpose of the grading system in socialist economy, is to organise wages in such a way that they stimulate the growth of the productivity of labour, especially in the key links in the process of production and encourage workers to improve their skill. Progressive and technically justified output standards correspond to socialist principles of management. The wage policy of the Socialist State is being carried out in the course of a struggle against petty-bourgeois equalising tendencies. This policy is based on all-round wage differentiation: higher pay for skilled and arduous work, and for workers in leading trades and branches of the national economy.
(4) The basic economic law of socialism determines a steady increase in real wages. Factors in raising real wages are: continuous growth of socialist production and productivity of labour in the complete absence of unemployment; systematic reduction of the price of consumer goods; the rise of the cultural and technical level of the workers, and of their skill; improved housing conditions of the working people. The individual money wage of manual and clerical workers is supplemented by large assignments from the State and from public organisations for social and cultural measures. These are an important means of raising real wages.
SOCIALIST ECONOMIC LAW OF PLANNED, PROPORTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
https://www.marxists.org/subject/economy/authors/pe/pe-ch30.htm(1) Planned development of the national economy is made necessary and possible by social, socialist ownership of the means of production. Planned, proportional development of the economy is an economic law of socialism.
(2) The law of planned, proportional development of the economy is a regulator of the distribution of means of production and manpower in socialist economy, in accordance with the basic economic law of socialism. It requires the planned management of the national economy, the development of all branches of sodalist economy on a proportional basis, the fullest and most effective use of material, labour and financial resources.
(3) Socialist planning is successful if it correctly meets the requirements of the law of planned development of the national economy, and conforms fully to the requirements of the basic economic law of socialism. In the actual planned management of the economy, economic instruments connected with the operation of the law of value are utilised. The balance method of planning is of great importance in fixing correct proportions for national economic development.
(4) Planned management of the national economy is a most important aspect of the Socialist State's function as economic organiser. National economic plans are worked out by State bodies on the basis of directives determined by the Communist Party, and are based on scientific generalisation from the experience of socialist construction, on taking into account the advantages afforded by a sodalist economic system, and on the external and internal situation. State plans are geared to everything advanced which arises in the practice of communist construction, in the creative work of the masses, and are directive in character. To carry on the national economy in a planned way, the mass of the people must be rallied to fulfil and exceed the plan targets, and daily checking of the fulfilment of the plan must be organised.
(5) A very great advantage of socialism over capitalism is planned development of the national economy, without crises. This brings about a saving in resources which the bourgeois system cannot achieve, and makes it fully possible for all sides of production to grow continuously and rapidly in the interests of the mass of the people.
>>1779160>Prepare for an influx of buzzwords, circular reasoning, and sloganeering.Wrong. These are the irrefutable, concrete laws of Socialist mode of production. The ultras are the ones who depend on such tactics.
No.1779182
>>1779177>ussr textbookI mean okay but what are the laws that China is employing especially considering they don't have a socialist economy.
No.1779185
>>1779182China's economy is more socialist and developed than the USSR's ever was.
No.1779187
>>1779182China utilizes all of the laws of Socialist production, as the economic laws of socialism are objective laws, independent of the will and consciousness of man.
No.1779536
>>1779185>China's economy is more socialist and developed than the USSR's ever was.Developed maybe, but more socialist? In what way exactly?
No.1779549
>>1779185Literal brain damage
No.1779561
>>1768219You’re a retard. This graph shows that income inequality is disastrous both in China and the West; the only blessing in the Chinese chart is that the 1% are not as dominant Chinaside as in the United States.
No.1779565
I think giving credit where credit is due is important. For example if a musician samples someone who was sampled should be listed somewhere by the artist themselves and a fake artist cant just steal credit for something someone else did. But beyond that it depends on the economic system in place.
No.1779566
China has not had a death in 3 years. This number excludes Western spies, socialist CEOs and corrupt party members.
No.1779567
>>1768219China has not abolished the capitalist mode of production and in fact has retreated toward full scale market capitalism from a dotp aiming to build socialism.
There exists a Chinese bourgeoisie and Chinese proletariat. Even if property is "fairly divided" (fucking Proudhonist limpdick) as you say, private property and the relations remain. You're a dipshit. All you can do is spread empty populist mottos.
No.1779575
>>1779565I definitely believe attribution is important, but intellectual property rights like copyright is artificial scarcity. It's not as simple as depending on the economic system, because it
is part of the economic system.
As for the alternate voiceover in the video, mass distributers like streaming services and film publishers should be pirated and the piracy of their property should be encouraged among friends and family. Not just ideologically or politically (like BDS), but to save money, to access other versions like uncensored versions, to access more works, etc..
No.1779588
>>1779567Except the role of the bourgeoisie is diluted by the role of the Party; I.e, beyond pure SOEs, there’s also private firms whose owners are Party members, and party cells controlling management in ostensibly private firms. It’s hybrid, of course, but it can never be compared to the capitalist structures in the West.
DotP went swinging and has capitalists in its bed, but it’s still wedded to Communism and Socialism.
No.1779590
>>1779571Which is why I think 15 million is a better rate for famine deaths. You have to remember, the Great Famine hit only about half the country in full force; some people starved to death, others were hungry, but otherwise okay.
Glowie propaganda in the main.
No.1779608
>>1779588>Except the role of the bourgeoisie is diluted by the role of the Party I.e, beyond pure SOEs, there’s also private firms whose owners are Party members, and party cells controlling management in ostensibly private firms.Relations remain or they don't. You can't "dilute" private property by having it being owned by party members. That just makes the intellegencia outright capitalists since they own capital. The relations remain concrete all the same. Be fucking serious.
>It’s hybrid, of course, but it can never be compared to the capitalist structures in the West.If it's not socialist, it's capitalist. This is a simple truth. They not only can be directly compared to the western imperial powers but in essence of the current system of production, they remain capitalist. There is no hybrid of socialism and capitalism. Proudhonist
>DotP went swinging and has capitalists in its bedSo it's not a dictatorship of the proletariat, it's a dictatorship of the national bourgeoisie and the proletariat. Why do you call it a Dotp? Do you even know what it means beyond your memes about private property being theft?
Dengists need to be murdered methinks. Wastes of skin calling themselves Marxists only to repackage and resell the old rotten social fascism of Proudhon, Bernstein and ᴉuᴉlossnW. Lowlives
No.1779634
>>1779561I made a small error.
https://wid.world/country/china/The trend is still true. I just shared the wrong image. The proletariat (bottom 50 percent) have about as much income as the top one percent in Communist China pre-tax, but post-tax this figure changes greatly. Communist China uses law of socialist value distribution to steal back the surplus value from the capitalists with Socialist taxation. 🙏 please. I only made small error. It was just the wrong image. The logic is correct. The trend of values distribution is the inverse of what we see in American
No.1779638
>>1779549>>1779536Read Marx. Read Engels. Socialism is contingent upon highly developed industrialized economy. China, the principal communist nation hitherto in history, is this to its most extreme. Therefore, Communist China is the most socialist country because Communist China is the most highly developed socialist country both right now and in history.
>>1779522What is detailed in the book more strongly resembles Communist China than the USSR, because Communist China is more socialist.
No.1779656
>>1779608Except the Soviet Union had its NEP phase and continued to retain black markets until the point of its dissolution. And the Chinese flag has stars for petit bourgeoisie and national bourgeoisie; it’s been hybrid since its birth.
China is socialist to a greater degree than any other economy besides the planned economies of Cuba and North Korea.
Marx wrote, anyways, that socialism would naturally develop out of capitalism as capitalism resolved its contradictions. Until a full replacement can be found for the national and petit bourgeoisie, these two classes will remain, albeit subordinate to the dictatorship of the proletariat.
No.1779666
>>1779522Remember, the textbook teaches us that these laws of socialism are universally applicable to all socialist mode of production.
No.1779683
>>1779608look at this cat, dude
No.1779820
>>1779638>>1779656>>1779666this is all so wrong I won't even entertain dealing with your points legitimately. stop watching youtube pederasts like Hakim or Second thought and get halfwit slop down your throat and read EVERYTHING from the three heads of marxism. if you haven't (and you haven't) don't talk. i can see through your illiteracy.
No.1779899
>>1779820>this is all so wrong I won't even entertain dealing with your points legitimately. If I am so incorrect, then why can't you prove it? Why bother typing a paragraph of fallacy?
>stop watching youtube pederasts like Hakim or Second thought and get halfwit slop down your throat and read EVERYTHING from the three heads of marxism.Youtube is for children. I read and re-read the Marxist classics. I cite from the official USSR textbook regarding this matter, which was written by Stalin's greatest theorists and then approved by Stalin himself. The textbook agglomerates the theories of the greats you mention and condenses them for neonate Marxists. I teach while you conceal and confuse.
>if you haven't (and you haven't) don't talk. i can see through your illiteracy.You see through nothing, while I see straight through your fallacy. My literacy skills were college-level in elementary school, and my academic achievement proves this, but I am not the focus of this discussion. You bring no counterpoint. What do you disagree with?
No.1799891
So, did we reach a conclusion yet?
No.1799899
>>1799891The endless Dengist / anti-Dengist trolling continues, as does the expansion of Chinese GDP, and more importantly, the continued and furthered development of socialism in China. 🇨🇳
No.1799901
>>1799899Dear China Anon: what are your takes on Mohism in ancient China? What is the official stance on Mohism?
No.1799916
>>1744648I’m going to DC next week and plan on visiting the Smithsonian. Is this lupus-ridden uygha’s drum machine worth seeing?
No.1799972
>>1799891Communist China's copyright law is socialist
No.1799974
>>1799901Sounds like queer nonsense.
Read the Daodejing.
No.1799981
Under full communism I would expect that Artists™ would have to draw from the lottery to either maintain the robots or clean toilets for 1 hour a week just like everybody else and that they wouldn't be compensated extra for their hobby.
No.1800770
>>1799972You keep saying this yet still haven't shown how.
No.1800772
>>1799981theres no partial communism
No.1809365
>>1809342Actually sampling was alot of lazier back then
No.1809395
>>1808771>>1809342>>1809365>>1809378Rap and techno are satanic gayuyghur shit. The Beatles were programmed by the Tavistock Institute under Theodore Adorno to make gayuyghur music to brainwash Americans.
No.1809398
Remixing, sampling, covering, who cares. It is about the final product not the process idgits.
No.1809400
>>1809395Go to therapy, Maupin.
No.1809407
>>1809404The fuck does this have to do with Deng? Are you looking for some shoehorn award?
No.1809409
>>1809407Dengists will defend IP if IP laws are implemented by "socialist" countries.
No.1809411
>>1809409I think that blurred lines lawsuit was the stupidest shot I ever heard, but I think people should get paid for their work. Problem is the rights holders are often not the people who did any work and the people who worked get nothing because they have no rights.
No.1809417
>>1809378That's not even the Smithsonian but the Black History Museum which is literally run and organized by PMC black academics. The same people who think pushing buttons on a sampler counts as 'making music' are the same people teaching and pushing critical race theory and DEI programs.
No.1810065
>>1809417And there are plenty of "PMC academics" who openly admire Marx and Lenin, teach the Russian Revolution from a point-of-view that tankies would agree with, and admit CPUSA did some good things.
What's your point?
No.1811799
>>1809378>>1809417>>1809675LOL that museum is just basically: blacks are weak and inferior, here's all the evidence of them being nothing but subjugated cowards. And that “j dilla timefeel” AKA the way he took pre-existing music snippets and added his sole contribution (and black people as a collective’s sole contribution) (his timefeel drum patterns) in the “beat making” section is the only thing noteworthy.
No.1811804
>>1811799>blacks are weak and inferior, here's all the evidence of them being nothing but subjugated cowards.>(and black people as a collective’s sole contribution)Keep your white supremacy in 4/pol/.
No.1811828
>>1811799>LOL that museum is just basically: blacks are weak and inferior, here's all the evidence of them being nothing but subjugated cowards. Black history is a history of resilience.
No.1812194
>>1732849>How would IP laws and copyright be handled under socialism?None should exist.
>Would it be abolished or just reformed?Abolished hopefully.
>How would artists be compensated if not for royalties?For their original work.
>Also, what about “hard cases” like instances of cultural appropriation, etc.?Depends on the context. Overtly hateful and inciteful is probably gonna have its vigilantes. No need for a state to categorize which is which, as that is just a venue for censorship and being a white knight for other people's cultures.
No.1812274
>>1809395>>1811799Dafuq is up with all the racism on this board all of a sudden?
No.1812279
>>1809417“The Smithsonian” is a collection of public museums, retard.
No.1812584
>>1811799I rather enjoyed the buck breaking exhibit.
No.1812587
>>1812274Lefties try not to be horrible people challenge: impossible
No.1814865
Copyright abd IP have zero place or need under socialism.
No.1814870
>>1814865Wrong. See Communist China
No.1815809
>>1811799And who made most of those “pre-existing music snippets” by chance?
No.1829518
So what’s the argument FOR copyright/IP aside from “China dies it”?
Unique IPs: 157