No.1765121
I honestly seems like they have a point. Sure you could say that people who unironically identify with the people these films are meant to satirize are just too stupid to get it, but alternatively they may just not care. It seems like if you want to do this sort of critique then you need to make the anti-hero you're trying to satirize self-destructive in a way that is impossible to ignore.
No.1765147
>>1765121>>1765121>seems like they have a pointThey 100% have a point, and we always had the solution.
>fanedit.orgRe-edits of visual media with some judicious re-scoring and limited re-recording of certain voice parts. Advances in the last few months make it even easier. I've got the perfect first candidate.
No.1765163
>always thought that the bugs hitting Earth with an asteroid was really silly
>it turns out you were supposed to think that
woah
No.1765183
>>1765114I like Starship Troopers and the method of overidentifying with the subject of the critique "unironically" because fascists themselves like to play with irony, jokes, and trolling and depend on people not taking them too seriously. It might not even be accurate to call it satire because it doesn't assume there's any distance between the viewer and the subject matter and indicts the viewer too in their enjoyment of what they're watching, and that what the film is doing is playing with the ambiguity of it all and the "obscene underside" and enjoyment that it brings as the Lacanians like to say.
An example of satire would be Stephen Colbert for example back when he pretended to be a right-wing talk show host. But people generally knew it was satire and he wasn't being serious, whereas Starship Troopers does the opposite and unironically embraces fascism or is at least indifferent to what the audience thinks of what they're seeing, but which serves to undermine it by, paradoxically, bringing out the obscene underbelly which drives it but which fascists deny to themselves. Or something like that. That seems hard to get right though.
No.1765204
>>1765137Lmao, what a faggot. That was my first reaction, and that's what the average person would say about this screenshot.
I've probably been desensitized to this because military propaganda is everywhere these last few years, but what did Heinlein or the director expect the audience to feel about this?
These things are not human in-universe, they killed millions of people unless the asteroid was a false flag, and they can't even communicate. So, everything military propaganda says their enemies are.
It kind of makes a difference when the actual enemy real soldiers face is just another person who was sent to die to make porky richer.
No.1765210
Death of the Author.
Oh, and Hollywood is infested with DOD glowies, especially with productions of military movies, even when fictional or sci-fi.
No.1765221
>Paul Verhoeven failed because studios made merchandise
>he should have prevented this
So he should have just not made the movies is what he's saying. It's not within the powers of a director, even an auteur, to stop the studio from selling merchandise. Most producers don't have that power.
>You're watching fascist propaganda about how perfectly understandable and appealing and worthwhile it is [to] become various different kinds of fascist
Yes, that is the whole point. The thing about fascism and similar philosophies is that it is appealing like that. If you want to portray it accurately, that's a very important component of it. That makes it harder to do, but it's still worth doing (or at least attempting). This is why Starship Troopers is the way that it is - you are invited to fall for the fascist propaganda before being confronted with the disillusioning reality. It's a great format for this kind of thing even if Verhoeven failed at it (debatable). If the writers and artists and directors of the left (or just antifascist liberals really) give up on trying to create anti-fascist propaganda, then they cede the entire cultural field to the fascists.
>almost literally saying it's not good antifascist propaganda if it's not "I drew you as the soy wojak"
That is such a fucking embarrassing thought to think let alone post.
How about we don't take cues from fascist propaganda about how to do good antifascist propaganda please and thank you.
Don't expect to win over the fascists or people with fascist tendencies with a fucking movie.
They believe in that shit because they want to believe in it, because it appears to serve their interests. They will actively seek out media that confirms their biases, up to and including radically reinterpreting something specifically designed to criticize them.
Anti-fascist media is not for the fascists.
The most fundamental error here is the old leftoid idea that we should really be trying to win over the fascists instead of the great masses of workers.
>look at these right wingers who think the fascists in antifascist media are cool
They would (and do) do this with fascists in pro-fascist media too, idiot.
You're not arguing for taking their toys away. You're arguing for taking toys away from the left.
I'm so sick of the internet critics (following in the footsteps of Cinema Sins) who have zero tolerance for flaws or failure in media. Not everything works, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying. Not just because it might work, but because we can learn from failures too. There's real criticism to make on the subject (including of the examples used here) but this is some of the shittiest and most pathetic attempt at it imaginable. But what else do you expect from twitter.
No.1765253
>>1765204>hese things are not human in-universe, they killed millions of people unless the asteroid was a false flag, Landing Apollo on the moon was like throwing a dime from New York and landing it in a teacup in Los Angeles. How likely do you think it is to hit a planet with an astroid from the other side of the galaxy?
No.1765265
>>1765192>Some people also like starship troopers because it makes the society look based lolThat's true – and it does! (Sorta) But is that an indictment of the filmmakers or the viewers who look at it that way? I dunno the answer to that. But the film also doesn't provide an answer which is why I'd distinguish it from satire. It's more posing a question really.
>Your point of over-identification as subversion is also made by zizek in reference to bands that use nazi aesthetic, but no doubt, its because a lot of them are nazisRight. In reference to Laibach. I also posted a Hatari video and I know those guys are directly influenced by Laibach who are, like, let's do obscene gay Nazi disco unironically. Also influenced by Guy Debord with the intention to reveal fascist tendencies in nominally democratic societies, this is a cover of a Queen song:
https://garagemca.org/en/exhibition/nsk-from-kapital-to-capital/materials/laibach-desyat-statey-zaveta-laibach-10-items-of-the-covenant
>The most effective example i saw of this was a strange rebirth of neoconservatism a few years ago where people were unironically supporting the american imperial regime as realpolitik and just sort of becoming hyperconformists. My feeling though is that its probably liberating to some to just "give up" and embrace the status quo though, like that guy destiny, who is the perfect reverse fed."Giving up" is also the ending of Nineteen Eighty-Four too. My vulgar sort of evolutionist view is that it's a given that people with different politics will try to adapt to each other. You put your card on the table, I flip your card upside down. This goes on forever. Look at the Dark Brandon saga where Democrats got over their reputation for humorlessness by learning to play with fascist aesthetics that originated on 4chan. Nobody thought they had it in them. But memes, like ideas, can flow all over the place – they can go from the fringes to the center and then from the center to the fringes and from the left to the right, and from the right to the left. And whereas before, people who really defended American wars were on the backfoot, they eventually loosen up and start posting smug George W. Bush pics at you.
No.1765274
>>1765253Idk, it's sci-fi, man. You are already supposed to go along with unrealistic stuff. Humans already managed to get to their homeworld somehow, so it makes sense that bugs could have changed an asteroid trajectory.
Either way, I'm not talking about lore. I just want to know what is supposed to be the "non-fascist" reaction to actual bugs that killed at least thousands and can't be reasoned with. Or was it just an excuse to make military propaganda look way more reasonable than it is in real life?
No.1765282
>>1765278>The film like with other plot points in the movie seem ambivalent about whether the bugs really did the asteroid or not.How would that even work, and what would the motivation be? You are obviously supposed to think it's bullshit.
>But I believe the film implies the world is overpopulated which is why they're sending waves of soldiers into a meat grinderThe movie implies that the military is so entrenched in this society ("service guarantees citizenship") that it needs to find wars to fight in order to justify its continued existence.
No.1765302
>>1765282>How would that even work, and what would the motivation be? You are obviously supposed to think it's bullshit.Which sounds reasonable. But I'd say that unlike a more straightforward satire, it doesn't pull the viewer to the side and say, yeah, that's bullshit. Nor is there any big reveal where the heroes realize what they're being told are lies and go uncover the truth with a Planet of the Apes ending, instead it ends with Rico becoming the literal propaganda depiction of the perfect soldier.
>>1765292>Thats why i like dialectics, because it says something is only overcome within itself, not by an exterior power - to pretend to be a rebel is often to buy into an image the establishment sets for you, but just in reverseI think that's nicely put.
Also on overidentification and Laibach, I liked the performance of the first song here, Drstava ("The State" in Slovenian and Serbo-Croatian), and its connection between the form of production and modern ideology with the women in the Third Reich mass athletics performing in a robotic way.
No.1765308
>>1765302>instead it ends with Rico becoming the literal propaganda depiction of the perfect soldier.It doesn't though. He barely survives the war and only by luck not skill or anything. Half the joke is how pathetic of an imitation he is of Michael Ironside, with his voice cracking when he shouts "Rico's Roughnecks." The propaganda framing of the movie portrays him as a badass war hero but from what we see in the war part, he didn't really do anything. Practically every other character who died along the way actually did more. And if he had been competent a lot of them wouldn't have died.
No.1765314
>>1765312
lol this rule completely changes how the game works
No.1765319
>>1765282>You are obviously supposed to think it's bullshit.Especially since only a scene or two before the propaganda reel was showing off the orbital defences around the moon.
Considering the size of the rock we see and all the forces involved with moving something that massive fast enough to be meaningful as artillery in this war, it colliding with the Earth would have vaporized every living thing on it, not just one single city.
No.1765323
>>1765308>jumping onto a walking tank and blowing it up with a single grenade isn't badass or heroicHe's kind of an empty headed vessel from start to end that just does whatever he's told. He's the perfect soldier for this society because he has no thoughts and will of his own. Even if he is just a pale imitation of Raczak, that's exactly what this society made him to be, Raczak's replacement, just as functional, just as disposable.
Also the cartoon was better in some ways imo.
No.1765324
media literacy continues to be in the toilet i see
> just make every movie stupid enough for tucker carlson fans to get it
that's been tried they get super weird about it
No.1765328
>>1765326im actually a fan of the homer style of narrative especially because it pisses off all the reddit retards who care about spoilers
No.1765332
>>1765328There's also something interesting about the attitude of "look we all know this story, we all know where this is going…" even if it's a brand new story.
No.1765333
>>1765324>>1765326I'm not saying that, if anything I'm saying we need to ban simplistic art and enforce heavy gate keeping even if it really is fascist propaganda.
The problem is that American Psycho, Starship Troopers, and all the rest are written cartoonishly intentionally, yes, but yes fascists still latch onto it.
The reason I said death of the author and other ideas like separating the art from the artist which were coined by liberal theoreticians have done more harm than any good. It has only led to ruin, because people actively say "I know Bateman is a cartoon character, but I like him and choose to emulate him anyway." Tristian Tate said that people should read American Psycho to emulate Bateman despite it being a criticism on American capitalism and fashion. What we need to do is say "No." and just beat people up if they discuss things incorrectly in media, we need to unironically just assault people, straight up.
>>1765328That said we must also bring back the Homer style because I also agree, anyone who bitches about spoilers is a faggot.
No.1765340
>>1765333bateman is a weird example to use death of the author with because the author said he wrote him as a literally me character. and i dont think brett easton ellis is some turbo fascist or anything just people are going to have these reactionary elements to them in capitalism while also moving dialectically to critique them.
No.1765346
>>1765340>author said he wrote him as a literally me character.Where did he say this?
>death of the authorEveryone who loves AP says that even the "Fashion competition card competition Dorsia" scenes are based.
No.1765350
>>1765349i mean who hasn't had some irrational bloodlust mixed with intense self loathing in their 20s
No.1765353
>>1765349Batemans attitude and what not, sure, but not the lifestyle and capitalist world and what not, again the death of the author part comes in the fact that the satire on American capitalism and yuppie stuff has been turned into "That's awesome dude" and any "pain" that Ellis put into Patrick is ignroed.
No.1765356
>>1765353> deep hatred of everyone of your friends and societythats typically what people latch onto in the character from what i've seen - i mean the sigma yt stuff aside which is more a meme than anything
the whole 'literally me' is more just the misanthropic nature not any of the wanting glamour or fame (but there certainly is a power fantasy involved sometimes)
No.1765357
>>1765356Is it? I see that in other sigma characters, but not Bateman.
No.1765358
>>1765357i could be wrong, i also want to kill jared leto so yknow may be some projection going on
No.1765360
>>1765358Ah I see, are you sure you're not thinking of Ben Afflecks Batman? Bateman and Batman get confused a lot and both of them beat the shit out of Jared Leto's Joker.
No.1765361
>>1765360paul allen's death is like the most memorable and cited scene in that film
No.1765364
>>1765114OPs twitter argument is also stupid because he's assuming the worker or communist can 'win' under the capitalist mode of production. As mattick and many other theorists have pointed out victory for the worker endangers the position of capital.
So even in the 1940s which followed the most Marxist decade in American history the best hollywood gave us was a sort of petit bourgeois critique of capitalism in noir films. There will never be Chadicus Swolius overthrowing the national capital until we reach communism and make movies about that.
No.1765365
>>1765114Hollywood is basically leftist, they didn't make a single movie which criticizes communism and greedy corporations are their staple villains. And they like fascism just because leftists love their strong leaders too. It is always some strange fascism-light with no racism or anti-feminism which, if exists, is typically portrayed in bad light. You are being greedy with your demands; Hollywood, like most businesses, is politically-correct to reach the biggest audience.
No.1765366
>>1765365Ah yes the great socialist author *checks notes* Charles Dickens.
No.1765369
>>1765368Worse, it's a pro Bush pro Patriot Act piece, justifying American hegemony. And it's poorly written poorly edited trash to boot.
No.1765370
>>1765365Retard. Probably smart for an American.
No.1765379
>>1765365>they didn't make a single movie which criticizes communismlol
No.1765394
>>1765265>>1765192I mean it's a militaristic society but it doesn't even seem "evil" tbh, there's no oppression of ethnic minorities or sex-discrimination either.
No.1765425
>The Israeli Centre for Digital Art is proud to host the Middle-Eastern debut of the unique and influential art group Irwin from Slovenia.
>Irwin serves as the visual arts department within the NSK (Neue Slowenische Kunst – New Slovenian Art) collective that also includes a music department (the band Laibach), a graphic design department, theatre department and a department for ‘pure and applied philosophy’.
[…]
>In 1991 the collective declared itself to be a state in time, as opposed to space. This nebulous existence was nevertheless accompanied by the issuing of passports, stamps, currency, a flag and an anthem, and the establishments of temporary embassies operating alongside NSK exhibitions and events. NSK’s total identification with aesthetic signifiers of the state apparatus led to a dramatic blurring of art and life, when during the subsequent war an unknown number of citizens managed to escape from Sarajevo using NSK State’s fictional diplomatic passports. This same blurring rose to prominence again in recent years as NSK’s HQ were flooded with hundreds if not thousands of passport applications from African, mainly Nigerian, citizens, who hoped that NSK’s passports can grant them entrance to life in the European Union.
[…]
>To our dismay, the first gauntlet thrown by Irwin was not picked up. One of the projects presented in the exhibition is ‘NSK Guards’ – a series of photographic documentations depicting soldiers belonging to various (mainly East European) armies wearing armbands bearing the Malevich cross on their sleeves, and standing to attention in front of the NSK State flag. Irwin have formally invited the Israeli Defence Forces to participate in the project and be documented in the same manner, while performing military drills at the opening of the exhibition. The IDF flatly refused.
No.1765428
>>1765114Satire is bad and we should engage in outright harsh critique.
No.1765649
>>1765183>>1765262There's a delicate balance: you have to show your side as capable and hardworking, but you can't make the other side completely passive and weak, because then your side will come across as the bad guys bullying people who did nothing wrong. You have to show your enemy as stronger than you (even stronger than you), but keep them faceless. Some may say that's fascism, but I've watched Soviet and American movies that had the same principles. For the sake of the meta joke, PV made his enemies too inhuman to the point that they aren't even human
No.1765673
based trotsky
jenny deserved a beating
No.1765725
>>1765114The person in the picture misunderstands the point. It is the Federation is the 'bad' person that is being satirized by the director. Rico and his comrades being portrayed heroically doesn't undermine how bizzare and terrible the setting is.
If he was just making a point about Wolf of Wall Street, mafia films and the 'literally me' genre films, he would be right. But nobody cares about Rico in Starships Troopers. You problably can't even tell me who is the first girl and NPH's names in the film. That is why nobody makes any good sequels of the film. 2 tried to go for the Federation bad angle and it was mid.
No.1765743
>>1765375You will love Warhammer, it goes hard. It also has even more retards who turn around and say that the imperium is actually based despite the fact that the company couldn't make it more obvious that it's an unthinkably big waste of human lives.
No.1765746
>>1765743>You will love WarhammerI don't. Over priced plastics with stories that are not well written riffing off of 80s trends nobody now remembers or cares about.
Had friends into it even played 40k table top rpg, just never found it very compelling and find it hard to compartmentalise away the fact it all exists to sell plastic - and now digital- toys.
No.1765749
>>1765746You're not supposed to buy anything, just download games and listen to the lore
No.1765756
>>1765221OP is just saying that there is no point in trying to make anti-fascist propaganda via satire like Starship Troopers, because it's far too easy to appropriate. Nobody on the left ever tries to appropriate the bad guys from Rambo movies. Why? Because they suck and are lame. We'd probably reach more people even among the great masses of workers with stupid nonsense like musclebound commie Rambos mowing down thousands of hapless chinlets. If your goal is to reach people then you need mass appeal. Starship Troopers is great, but insisting on some meta commentary or anti-fascism disguised as fascism like it does is just intellectual wankery. Do you want to make fascism look bad or do you want to feel smart?
No.1765760
>>1765756>Do you want to make fascism look bad or do you want to feel smart?We can do both. And beside Verhoeven didn't even do it to feel smart. If anything he thought it was too obvious.
No.1765762
>>1765760That's because he's an overeducated European
No.1765767
>>1765762Everyone is overeducated compared to Americans.
No.1765801
>>1765756Did you watch the Rambo movies? The first one is partially grounded; Rambo kills only one person (by accident), and the bad guys are small town cops. The second and third movies are the ones you think about, but even they are presented as menacing and a threat, specifically their leaders. It goes to what I talked about here
>>1765649 there has to be a balance between having your enemy be a genuine threat but also repulsive enough, either morally and/or physically, that the lowest denominator doesn't want to "insert" as them
No.1765804
>>1765776any proof of this, cause this could be just some random middle-ages women you want to shit on.
No.1765809
>>1765776>Starship Trooper never seemed like a critique of "fascism" to me i always thought it was a satire of liberal-neocons and blue dog warhawk etc.The big thing people cite on this IIRC is service for citizenship.
No.1765811
>>1765743>You will love Warhammer, it goes hard. It also has even more retards who turn around and say that the imperium is actually based despite the fact that the company couldn't make it more obvious that it's an unthinkably big waste of human lives.The War Boys in Fury Road are also like that. Like, goddamn, that looks badass… but it also turns out their death worship is really the projection of an image of strength as they're dying of radiation sickness and as their inner weakness is being exploited by the homoerotic Immortan Joe's gimpsuited freaks, and then they get beaten by a bunch of old ladies.
>>1765756>Do you want to make fascism look bad or do you want to feel smart?Are people ultimately responsible for deciding whether fascism is bad or do they need someone else to tell them it's bad by barking anti-fascist propaganda at them? The argument for not taking a position but over-identifying with fascism and bringing it to its logical conclusion is that it throws the responsibility back to the viewer, not telling the viewer what to think or what the correct line is, but encouraging a critical view about the world.
>>1765776>Starship Trooper never seemed like a critique of "fascism" to me i always thought it was a satire of liberal-neocons and blue dog warhawk etc.Or you could see fascism as being present inside the liberal-neocons and blue dog warhawks albeit in a less visible or audible way. We're all sort of progressive now, and the baddies… they're fascists. I don't think there's a single "fascist" state in the world today but fascism also sort of lives on as the blackpill, in nihilism, and dehumanizing yourself and facing to bloodshed which exists as a microbe within many different people who can even be radically opposed to each other – and mutually accuse the other of being fascists. The purpose of overidentification as critique is to reveal that.
No.1765812
>>1765278🪳 the bugs didn't do the asteroid 🪳
🪳 the humans deserved it 🪳
🪳 it'll happen again 🪳
>>1765282>You are obviously supposed to think it's bullshitI agree fellow human, the bugs definitely didn't do the asteroid. To think so would be silly.
No.1765814
>>1765809okay and? Rico's family, as well most of the non-citizen population, seemed wealthy and free for the most part.
No.1765820
>>1765811>>1765743So first off, I should explain that I've never played a single tabletop game. I've just listened to lore videos and audiobooks. The way I see it, I think the vast majority of people are keenly aware that the Imperium is horrible and a crappy system. However, the problem is that there are no real alternatives. There are the disgusting, putrid gods of evil, and there are the Tau, who are aliens. If there were a truly human alternative, it would be different, but they don't represent humanity and the fact is, and the biggest factor is that the Imperium is "badass" and cool,
No.1765827
>>1765114Dude, it's just a movie. Fascoids WISH they could write like that, but instead they get edgy characters whom they try to whitewash
No.1765851
>>1765776>Starship Trooper never seemed like a critique of "fascism" to me i always thought it was a satire of liberal-neocons and blue dog warhawk etcStrongly agree with this - the multiracial society in the movie is a hard sell as fascism. Also, where is the Fuhrer or Duce, the strongman that's such a feature of fascism?
No.1765888
>>1765756>OP is just saying that there is no point in trying to make anti-fascist propaganda via satire like Starship Troopers, because it's far too easy to appropriate.Yeah and I disagree. Most people aren't going to appropriate it, because most people aren't fascists. If anything, it's actually kind of good when fascists appropriate obviously bad characters because it acts like a sign post saying "I'm a fascist!" The issue isn't whether fascists will think fascist characters are cool. The issue is whether general audiences get the message or not. That's where you can argue Starship Troopers fails. What did the tweeter from OP expect from a movie? For fascists to see it and all go "wow I didn't realize how cringe I was being"? Silliness.
>Starship Troopers is great, but insisting on some meta commentary or anti-fascism disguised as fascism like it does is just intellectual wankery.It's actually pretty straightforward that that's what it's doing. it's the whole point of intercutting news clips and other such things. Like we can argue about how well it works, but to dismiss the very overt framing device of the movie is just wrong on its face. I mean the recruiter who talks to Rico is like "The corps made me the man I am today" and then he immediately backs up in his wheelchair and we see he's got no legs, and it even cuts back to Rico's reaction to the joke. If this is too "subtle" for someone then I don't think they would have been reached even if Rico got disillusioned at the end, looked down the barrel of the camera lens and said "Are we the baddies?" like that Mitchell and Webb skit.
>Do you want to make fascism look bad or do you want to feel smart?Verhoeven's satire is a little too straightforward for this argument IMO. In other cases this is definitely an issue, but Starship Troopers and Robocop are just so blatant that it's hard to apply the criticism to them. If anything the issue is that media has become so shitty and media so poor that a movie having any kind of larger theme or point to make comes across as highfalutin' and elitist. I mean people watch stuff like Blazing Saddles where the two lead actors
are right up in front of the camera calling racists morons, and the exact same people they are talking about love that fucking movie because of how many slurs per minute it has. You just can't win with some people, and it's just not worth dragging down the utility of satire for the rest of us on account of them.
>>1765801Yeah Rambo as an example is funny because it's one of the best examples of recuperating something that was kind of subversive. First Blood was a movie about dipshit cops who make the mistake of picking on the wrong guy for once and get in way the fuck over their heads, and also a movie about how much veterans' heads got fucked up by the war and how irresponsible it is to just turn deeply traumatized trained soldiers back into society without any thought.
And then the rest of the movies are about "holy shit look how many people this dude can kill!"
No.1765905
>>1765888Somewhat related to this, Lindsay Ellis (I know she's a lib) had a great video on why Mel Blanc movies aren't ever claimed by Fascists. Sure, there are plenty of out-of-touch conservative boomers who like them, but not Fascists or extreme right-wingers. The medium of comedy takes away from any sort of potential bad-assness of the evil, as it becomes a joke.
No.1765913
>>1765365Nevermind the tons of movies where the Soviets/Russkies are the villains? Even Enemy at the Gates was portraying the Soviets as idiots. They don't explicitly mention or discuss communism as such because the typical Hollywood consumer doesn't like to be bothered by ideological knitty-gritty.
The only movies I know that explicitly mention the words capitalism and imperialism are made by Boots Riley and he more indie than Hollywood.
>greedy corporations are their staple villainsLolberts and conservatives can also rant about corporations but that doesn't make them leftist because they see the problem with "big government" or "corporatism".
The time of closet Marxists in Hollywood during the 50s is long gone. It's just corporate shlock, woke culture sells but economically you can't really call out liberalism and so on.
There are some quite anti-capitalist TV shows though, Severence for example. I think TV and streaming is less influenced by the military-entertainment complex which has completely taken over capeshit.
No.1765917
>>1765147>new western blockbuster lands>leftists re-edit, re-score re-record some voice parts>entire message of blockbuster is changed >seed that shit on the wires>Profit?Nobody ever watch any fanedit.org and see possibilities?
No.1765920
>>1765147>I've got the perfect first candidate.What would that be?
No.1765931
>>1765326>I think that anon a while back who said that "show don't tell" was a glow op may have been onto something. We should bring back the Greek Chorus that explains to the audience what the fucking point of the show is so they don't walk away completely fucking misunderstanding what the author was trying to convey.Just look at the flood of Chinese spy, space, historical and war slop over the last few years. I've watched the best of them, they're great and the production values are amazing. They're intensely technical, with complex plots when possible but there's never any danger of a Starship Troopers tier public misinterpretation.
>2.5 hour epic, intricate spy drama>final scene>protagonist who has been undercover forever in final confrontation>No, I'm a Communist>shoots big bad in head>cut to black the endgoddamn saluted the screen
No.1765932
>>1765114It's not us doing this, it's libs. As we know, they love to romanticise fascists and sociopaths in general.
Pointless thread
No.1765936
>>1765920A recent mid level tech thriller whose tone and message could be significantly altered with minimal intervention, making it much more friendly to AES.
No.1766026
I despise warhammer 40k. Everything has to just be so grimdark. I don't care if its ridiculing the Imperium when it also presents it as the only option for Humanity or they are killed by space demons. It basically vindicates fascism and makes me support the evil baddie Chaos because at least they aren't the imperium. The setting is stupid and ridiculous to the point I can't understand how anyone could get invested. I just hate grimdark universes where everything is always bad and technology and progress is dangerous. I'm saying this as someone who loves dark and depressing stories. But when a whole universe is like this I feel nothing. There has to be positives, there has to be hope for a better world. I hate the fans even more though because they want it to be all shit. Its fascist realism. The only faction which I can get invested in are the Tau but the fans hate them and try to make them seem sekritly evil! Because you can't have a force of progress in their fascist battle wank story. The whole thing is fascist to the core. It isn't a subversion, it is just fascist. And the Horus Heresy shows this by having the 'good' time of the empire which fans shlick their slits to LITERALLY BE A GENOCIDAL FASCIST DICTATORSHIP but it is leh enlihtened fascism! The books read like ᴉuᴉlossnW writing how his ideal space empire would look like as he gets pegged.
Fuck Warhammer 40k. It's fans should be either hanged or publicly beaten depending on the severity of their crimes, and the writers should be bayonetted. Worst of all my ex-partner loves it so fucking much and talks about it every day and I just want to tell her, "Girl you need to shut the fuck up and read something half decent", but she is too much of a LITERAL ᴉuᴉlossnW-type labour voting fascist / social fascist that she won't ever READ anything. Ugly Bitch. I'm sorry if you read this but its true, you never read anything I send to you and I always bfto your shitty libtard articles. You're obnoxious and never listen to what I say and only ever talk about fucking SNOREHAMMER 40KKK. GORESHITTER 90K. Fuck our last sexual encounter was so fucking arkward it still bugs me to this day.
No.1766041
>>1766026Warhammer is just Dune with all critique of religion and fascist leaders removed.
No.1766043
>>1766041Warhammer has critique of religion (see The Last Church) it's just surface-level and fedora-tier
No.1766045
>>1765931>Just look at the flood of Chinese spy, space, historical and war slop over the last few yearsAny specific recommendations?
No.1766051
>>1766041>>1766043Maybe they are similar if you get into the details of the worldbuilding, but just reading the stories they are completely opposed. Dune is like literally about how becoming the god emperor won't help the galaxy whilst in Warhammer the emperor is like some epic gigachad god who is just misunderstood by the degenerates (fall of rome tier shit).
No.1766052
>>1765814Rico's family was wealthy and white enough that they were going to send their lunkhead of a son to some ivy league school. I don't think he was meant to represent the common man.
No.1766057
>>1765888>First Blood was a movie about dipshit cops who make the mistake of picking on the wrong guy for once and get in way the fuck over their heads, and also a movie about how much veterans' heads got fucked up by the war and how irresponsible it is to just turn deeply traumatized trained soldiers back into society without any thought.I love first blood. Better Christmas movie than die hard.
It's crazy how much different the book is though, where the evil sheriff is actually supposed to be the good guy.
No.1766059
>>1766026Common loyalist W, seethe heretic
It's not real, bro. It's just an example of fans being too dumb to understand what the authors make clear and say explicitly.
No.1766061
>>1766051>Maybe they are similar if you get into the details of the worldbuilding, but just reading the stories they are completely opposed. Dune is like literally about how becoming the god emperor won't help the galaxy whilst in Warhammer the emperor is like some epic gigachad god who is just misunderstood by the degenerates (fall of rome tier shit).Uh yeah, that's literally what I just said: Warhammer is what you get when you strip Dune of all its critical content and turn it into a toy commercial. It's total schlok.
No.1766072
>>1766026The Eldar and Tau are pretty reasonable or well as reasonable as factions can be in that universe.
I also don't understand why everyone calls the Imperium fascist. It's clearly not.
When Chaos can literally transform entire planets into insane cults and manifest all sorts of horrific beasts and mutants it doesn't make much sense to complain about "genocide" anymore.
Rights to other sentient life should only be granted if they aren't trying to consume or destroy your entire civilization. The Tyranids for instance are clearly a cockroach problem that's gotten out of control why should anyone shed a tear for vicious monsters that see the entire galaxy as food? The Necrons on the other hand are basically SkyNet. Orcs are like if you cloned Dick Cheney or an American politician a million times and called it a species. Trying to sign a peace treaty with them is like how Cucktin did for Ukraine is clearly not going to get anywhere.
No.1766074
>>1766045Can't remember any names, I guess I could to look for specific titles if you need. The way I found them was mostly by going to the yts.am search page
>only select chinese movies>select by genre: war, thriller etc>select by year or decade>sort by imdb or other ratingBest place online to get a suggestion and a movie imo
No.1766077
>>1766026oh wait I forgot the pasta
Orks have socialized everything. Socialized space flight. Socialized medium of exchange. Socialized krumping. Orkdom is a true meritocracy in the sense that Orks literally get bigger the longer they live and the more fighting they do, but all orks are equally entitled to fighting whenever they want to and the fighting is shared equally amongst all orks. Additionally, because Orks are genetically hardwired to follow the biggest, meanest, krumpinest ork, but Orks also maintain a powerful psychic gestalt they have essentially solved the problem of large scale, noncoercive hierarchical organizaton; The biggest, meanest, krumpinest orks are recognized to have authority on account of being the biggest, but collective decision making is truly democratic as each ork contributes to the psychic gestalt that is the true driver of ork collective decision making.
Orks extremely robust physiology makes medical care and even mechanical augmentation trivial, allowing for a devolved medical care infrastructure staffed by Orks who have an inclination towards exploring the wealth of medical knowledge encoded in their genetic structure. Likewise, orkish industry is devolved to a very low level, with individual mekboys able to trade on the orks encoded genetic technical knowledge to rapidly industrialize in any conditions imaginable.
Even the wealthiest orks, the so called "Flash Gitz" are limited in their accumulation of wealth by the essential nature of Orks. Orks use their own teef as a medium of exchange for the vast majority of common goods and needs. Orks can either harvest their own teef or punch them out of another ork, but accumulation is largely impossible because teef decay at a more or less fixed rate once separated from the ork, which keeps the orkish cash economy extremely liquid. Another factor preventing wealth accumulation is the nature of orkish hierarchies, orkish psychology, and the orkish psychic gestalt; most orkish infrastructure is constructed organically at a very devolved level. An enthusiastic mekboy's enthusiasm is literally infectious, inspiring other orks to develop their latent mekboy talents and join the construction project, which in turn motivates more orks to participate. In this way orkish industry is built from the bottom up, as individual mekboys inspire infrastructure build up informed by the needs of the waagh as determined either by Orkish leadership or the collective will of the orkish psychic gestalt.
Extremely large capital projects like fortresses, kroozas, rocks, stompas, and planetary class weapons are financed not with teef or other mediums of exchange, but rather arise out of the collective enthusiasm of the waagh for really big weapons. Far from being alienated from their labor individual orks will happily and enthusiastically leap in to the construction of large orkish capital projects, deriving satisfaction and a sense of place and meaning from the knowledge that their efforts are directly contributing to the Waaaghs ultimate goal of getting in to a bloody good scrap.
The paradoxically hierarchical yet devolved nature of orkish leadership cannot be overstated. The biggest ork in the Waagh enjoys the near absolute loyalty of the Waagh, but only as long as the Waagh continues to progress, grow, and find new battles to fight. If a leader flounders, becomes unpopular, or simply fails to prosecute the Waagh this will quickly become evident to the Waagh as a whole, with the ambivalence of each Ork towards their leadership influencing the Orkish psychic Gestalt and encouraging subordinate orks to krump extra hard so they can become big enough to challenge the leadership for supreme command of the Waagh. Thus an unpopular leader rarely lasts long. A crisis of leadership will rapidly precipitate a series of coups until a leader emerges who is recognized as the biggest and meanest and krumpinest, at which point all Orks in the Waagh will recognize the leader and resume their individual efforts towards the Waagh. In this way the Waagh maintains rigid hierarchy that is nonetheless serving at the will of the collective body.
In short Orks is Green, Green is best, and you should all be out Krumpin instead of writing nonsense on the interwebs.
No.1766106
>>1766080
>>>/pol/
No.1766128
>>1766026heretic hands typed this post.
Inquisitor pls kill this person.
No.1766136
>>1766092Which is probably where Blizzard got its marines from for Starcraft.
Blizzard went on to absolutely butcher the setting in SC2, but SC1 was actually a pretty good example of having a grimdark setting that doesn't inadvertently glorify the fascists. I haven't seen anyone acting like they wanted to be in the Terran Confederacy, Terran Dominion or United Earth Directorate or fantasized about being in one of their criminal conscript legions.
No.1766185
>>1765875These people aren't necessarily the Federation's Supreme Leader, merely its military leadership. I am sure Hitler changed his military leaders multiple times.
No.1766193
>>1765851>>1765875>>1765776It's "fascism" in the form of a militaristic, illiberal republic which openly believes in expansionism, hierarchy and Social Darwinist "trials by fire" and opposes democracy and "social science," rather than fascism in the form of any kind of racial or sexual order.
It's ᴉuᴉlossnW or Hirohito fascism, not Hitler fascism.
No.1766194
>>1765147>i can totally reverse the years of psychic damage by throwing an MP4 into an AI deepfake toy you're retarded
No.1766195
>>1765114surprised there's no mention of patrick bateman
No.1766196
>>1766026>WH40K fangirl ex-gf lives rent-free in S-poster's headSounds like you just hate it as a proxy for being mad at your ex lol. Probably were into it yourself but the relationship ending spoiled that for you
which is genuinely sad and I hope you get over it and learn to enjoy things again.
No.1766200
>>1766045Cliff Walkers
Wolf Warrior
Battle of Lake Changlin
No.1766201
>>1766195The Bateman fans take clips of him entirely divorced from the context of the movie. Does it even count if they're doing that?
No.1766210
>>1765114>that wolf of wall street picWoof. Capitalists really do like drawing themselves as the chad when really they're a bunch of scrawny little weasels.
Look at Goodfellas too. All the main actors in that cast were handsome as fuck (by the standards of the day, even Paul Sorvino was a stud) but look up the real mobsters their characters were based on and it's gross-out town.
>>1766026>Fuck our last sexual encounter was so fucking arkward it still bugs me to this day.Absolute state of sexhavers
No.1766418
>>1766330see point
>>1765649 depicting your enemies as entirely weak nerds has an opposite problem as well. No matter how moral and upright your main characters are, if they are constantly facing hordes of goofy nerds, they will come across as bullies. The B1-battle droids from the Star Wars show are a good example. They are portrayed as jokes, easily mowed down without any challenge, and meant to be pathetic punching bugs. However, this had the opposite effect on a lot of people, including kids, where we felt bad for them more than anything
No.1766498
>>1766496It feels like mental illness is a necessity to wear this flag lamo
No.1766671
>>1765905>Lindsay Ellis (I know she's a lib) had a great video on why Mel Blanc movies aren't ever claimed by Fascists.>40 minute videoImagine making an entire video essay about why fascists never claim Mel Brooks movies because of comedy or whatever when the reason is obviously that
he's Jewish.>Mel Blanclmao
That's the voice actor who did all the Looney Tunes voices.
No.1766682
>no fuhrer figure
>no overexploited "other", in fact the society is highly cosmopolitan and tolerant
>(bourgeois) democracy is not rejected and is still upheld as a higher value, just "limited"
>the external enemy is utterly faceless so as to completely sidestep the question of morality of war and instead focus on the nitty-gritty of the military service itself (whereas fascists would always ascribe some sort of wrong values and inferiority to their opponents)
The society in Starship Troopers isn't fascist, it's just an idealist liberal fantasy about what America would be if one implemented "just the one right policy" that would change everything, and the movie is an equally liberal rebuttal of that. Actual fascist apologia (like so much anime) would have at least some of the aforementioned things and frame them as necessary if not desirable.
No.1766695
>>1766077>teef decay at a more or less fixed rate once separated from the orkork teef are labor vouchers
No.1766720
>>1766682>The society in Starship Troopers isn't fascistIt was intended as a representation of it. Neil Patrick Harris literally shows up wearing an SS uniform at the end.
>and the movie is an equally liberal rebuttal of thatI don't see what's so liberal about it. It's essentially just a parody of how fascist societies portray themselves, and its fairly accurate. It's somehow the best movie about America's response to 9/11 yet it came out in 1997.
No.1766739
>>1766720The screenwriter, Edward Neumeier, has given some interviews about it and said that, yeah, his intention was to do an absurdist extrapolation of tendencies he saw in American society in the 1990s and the possibility of fascism. He seems to think (and I think there's some merit to this argument) that fascism is a cell or gene within everyone. He also described it as a fantasy and that war makes everyone into fascists. And Verhoeven was also apparently influenced by Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent." The characters are "fascists who are not aware of their fascism."
They also parodied embedded war correspondents, which is something the U.S. military learned to do in the wars with Iraq. They'd have the reporters ride along with the troops and they'd end up bonding with the soldiers and becoming propagandists without even knowing they were propagandists.
No.1766852
>>1766136The UED was Actually Existing Socialism and with a single expeditionary force they almost single-handedly secured a sustainable peace in the entire sector. Stay mad liberal (Raynor's Raiders).
No.1766880
>>1766669did Blade Runner fail though? yes people like it's aesthetic but are aware that it's dystopian and that it sucks.
No.1766884
how about you watch movies to enjoy them, not as a tool for enlightening the masses
if a leftie pulls one over the hollywood execs and makes a movie that other lefties can enjoy sincerely, all the better for us, even if most people "don't get it".
it's the next best after actual socialist art
No.1767422
>>1766884>not as a tool for enlightening the massesNobody is using Starship Trooper to do that lmao
No.1767566
>>1767422Well then why does it matter if a "leftist" movie is interpreted as reactionary by the normies.
One more to the avalanche of movies with reactionary and liberal themes.
No.1768072
>>1767566It shows the inability to watch and understand the film on its own terms above all else.
I constantly have to remind people that a) The Federation is the unreliable narrator of this story which makes b) fascist storytelling the subject of the satire, not fascist themselves.
No.1768093
>>1765114>black sails>pirate leninI fucking wish i could clobber him because of how stupid this is.
No.1768141
>>1768093TL:DW what happens in Black Sails, it just seemed like one of those wannabe game of thrones series.
No.1768147
>>1768141Pretty much, just not nearly as good. The first season had some decent parts because it showed some aspects of pirate life that are usually skimmed over - the fact that they were a cooperative, with shares, responsibilities and democratic (though often quite brutal) rule. I wouldn't say it did a great job of it though and later seasons mostly skimmed it over too.
No.1768258
>>1766682>>no fuhrer figurenot really necessary tbh
The system has become normalized in this universe, so they don't need to put their hopes into any specific leader. Instead they have their idea of this perfect society.
>>no overexploited "other", in fact the society is highly cosmopolitan and tolerantYou only see the nice parts because Rico comes from a wealthy family. The "service guarantees citizenship" line is there to draw that line for you between the 1st and 2nd class people in their society - not even 2nd class citizens, just
not citizens.
>>(bourgeois) democracy is not rejected and is still upheld as a higher value, just "limited"I don't think they showed any democracy but I haven't seen the movie in a while. Wasn't the portrayal consistent with a military dictatorship?
>>the external enemy is utterly faceless so as to completely sidestep the question of morality of war and instead focus on the nitty-gritty of the military service itself (whereas fascists would always ascribe some sort of wrong values and inferiority to their opponents)The enemies are literally portrayed as bugs though. It's the logical conclusion of fascists dehumanizing their enemies. It's taken so far that there's nothing resembling a human left in "the enemy."
No.1768698
>>1766194>i can totally reverse the years of psychic damage by throwing an MP4 into an AI deepfake toy No, if you bothered to look you would have seen that people were re-editing movies long before AI tools were available. With some movies, depending on the footage available, it's possible to create an edit with a totally different message to the focus-grouped, MIC original edit. I can't believe that anons can't see the possibilities of seeding re-edited hollywood slop. Piracy would become public enemy number one again lol.
No.1768728
>>1768427Well I think it's cute
No.1768830
>>1768427You missed the point. Since the movie is meant to be an in-universe propaganda piece, the way the bugs are depicted is the way this society would have depicted its enemies. You shouldn't take the appearance of the bugs or anything said about them as literal.
Think of it like this: somebody makes a parody film about Nazi Germany specifically, a la Wolfenstein, as a "what if they were still around?" In the movie, we assume they have the same kind of technology we have today and also take advantage of movies for propaganda uses. So of course in their movie they are going to depict caricatures of The Jew and other targets. But do you think they are going to depict that realistically? No, of course not. They will turn The Jew into some CGI monstrosity. So if we made a movie trying to replicate what the nazis would make today, we wouldn't have Jewish actors tastefully and respectfully representing Jewish culture. We'd have Andy Serkis doing motion capture as a monstrous caricature.
That's why the enemy isn't depicted as anything sympathetic, because you're not supposed to sympathize with them. Within the movie they exist simply to be the grotesque inhuman enemy. And real life fascists did dehumanize their enemies in exactly that way. Starship Troopers just extends that logic as far as it will go.
No.1768834
>>1768713Side note, we must protect these creatures at all costs. They have special blood. Without them we wouldn't have many of the vaccines that we do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_crab#Blood_harvesting No.1768981
>>1765811>Are people ultimately responsible for deciding whether fascism is bad or do they need someone else to tell them it's bad by barking anti-fascist propaganda at them? The argument for not taking a position but over-identifying with fascism and bringing it to its logical conclusion is that it throws the responsibility back to the viewer, not telling the viewer what to think or what the correct line is, but encouraging a critical view about the world.Honestly both? Most people seem to be wildly cynical or nihilistic, they will identify with characters simply because they were portrayed in a positive or humorous way, even if the story ends badly for them. That isn't what's internalized, the characteristics of the identified character is internalized. And this is not even bad, it shows a necessary level of skepticism to the media, because why should we take
any messages about the real world from fiction media, period? Its fiction, there's no reason to trust that it reflects reality. But identification happens more unconsciously, and it can change how we view ourselves and the world once we are no longer under the direct influence of the media. We may feel solidarity with people that hold similar views or personality traits, and we may take in new views or personality traits associated with that archetype. (And ig this points also to the importance of the archetypes we absorb from society too but thats kind of a wider topic)
Also, I've noticed in a few recent big-budget action movies how there's at an aesthetic level a romanticization and glorification of ultra-violence and various cynical and conservative attitudes, but within the verbalized discourse of the film and hidden in symbolism there is a more progressive message. This seems to track somewhat to the idea of "reel them in and then show them what they were able to empathize with/justify/believe", but my first reaction to it is that it's a filter, where both the people who want a dumb movie glorifying violence and conservative attitudes
and the people looking for larger narratives and analyzing symbolism and so on are pleased by what they see, because they pass up the other aspect as less important. I assume it's a way to play to multiple markets and be maximally palatable. That's not to say satire is this since people will explicitly make satire, but if it functions similarly, that's a decent critique of the idea of satire at all. I think the strength of satire all rests on the ability of the film to make you see parallels in the world, and then believe the difficult things they are telling you via their metaphor, in a media piece that is understood to be fictional. The prospects seem not so great. So maybe let's just champion media that on an emotional and aesthetic level supports a positive message, and simultaneously engage in non-fictional political education on fascism, its history, its internal failure, and its evils, and so on.
(p.s. ive also been passively watching this copaganda show for a little while and the way it functions is similar - lip service to progressive issues, but baked into the plot, the score, and the camera angles, and so on is a totally conservative message, the uncritical glorification of the pigs, plot lines that read like they're straight out of breitbart or fox news, the way these characters are infallible personally and you're always entreated to see from their view via camera angles, action shots, etc., and the fact that most of the bad guys are non-white, most of the pigs are white, yet there's enough lip service in scenes that go nowhere about changing the department from the inside, or showing a single bad cop, etc. that it gets past some ppl's filters for just being out and out far-right propaganda! its so crazy to me. This wasn't meant as further evidence of my previous point, it kind of is I guess, it falls into the same pattern, but my point is that you can make media that simply shows and makes you empathize with the people who are supposed to be good, and people will impose the fictional world and its logic on the real world, this is education too! Why do we need satire in order to educate? Conservatives do it with absolutely overt propaganda, and it works! Obviously socialists don't have the means to make or distribute propaganda on the same scale, and this kind of propaganda is extremely deceptive and harmful because it plays on a lack of critical relationship to media, but like why carry water for bad models by making smth 90% propaganda for them, but then dusting the balls a little along the way, or all at once in the end? When there's the alternative of just making a propaganda/educational piece that's gratuitous and fun to identify with (well, other than maybe its a fascist way of winning people over?)?)
No.1769442
>>1765890To be fair, the first two movies hold up really well. The second movie has bits that are genuinely memorable and have real power
the third move is a meme
No.1769447
>>1769437>We need something like this but where it is 'satire' of space North Korea. Make young people shout "For the people's democratic dictatorship!" and "For the central committee" like they shout "For liberty!" in this game. Throw in a bunch of thing about socialism being le subverted by authoriarianism, but then show the world as actually pretty good to live in and that revolution was beneficial. But, why?
To what end?
No.1769519
There is only a single normal human depiction of a black person in American History X, undeniably a white supremacist film that does not at all deny the foundational thought of America's nazi settler apartheid society.
>>1765318>damaging to art theory and interpretationbased
>discard original meanings of any piece of media, choosing to just ignore everything elseNo, Death of the Author is about denying any Cinema Sins style 'here's the true meaning that explains Skinamarink" clickbait litcrit
For example, the Starship Troopers book was written by one of the more weird and freaky fascists, but if we disregard his identity and try to look at the book as it is with all its contradictions, we can see more interesting facets, like how the book is written where there are no civilians.
>>1766682>no overexploited "other", in fact the society is highly cosmopolitan and tolerant<She doesn't know why Argentina people are depicted as blue eyed Aryan whiteskek
No.1769563
>>1769437>>1769447is it authoritarianism or fascism, cause the vast majority of people conflate fascism and authoritarianism all the time.
No.1769565
>>1765748>Zelensky is a clown by professionThe age of high-brow satire is over. Now is the time of clowns.
>>1768981>champion media that on an emotional and aesthetic level supports a positive messageok
>and simultaneously engage in non-fictional political education on fascism, its historyIt's fiction tho, for the opposite you read non-fiction.
>there's the alternative of just making a propaganda/educational piece that's gratuitous and fun to identify with This runs into the issue of normalcy and the status quo. Liberals (=conservatives) can do that. We can't. We can make that for ourselves but we can't make people with a totally contrarian worldview see it like we do. Remember, ideology is not like glasses but like a filter.
I think there is also an issue of you have to walk before you can run. Liberals maybe don't need higher education so much as basic human functions like empathy. Teaching them for example something like North Koreans / Chinese / Russians are humans too and are capable of coherent thought. Which means making a work of fiction which isn't a black-and-white caricature but has actual conflict where all parties have reasonable motivations. I unironically like The 100 for this.
When me and my friends take over and form the JDPON, The 100 will be quintessential YA fiction for (former) westerners.
No.1770582
>leftists
No.1770584
>>1765192
>Your point of over-identification as subversion is also made by zizek in reference to bands that use nazi aesthetic, but no doubt, its because a lot of them are nazis
Funnily enough, the role in Westen liberal society of Nazis as le evil epitomized has resulted in anti-social edgelords who aren't even nazis infiltrating and subverting neo-Nazi orgs - see O9A et al. Nazism is obviously a transgression of our societies and a powerful, even if retarded, concept, so subversive punk artists and aggressive metalheads do often explore it. And within that, like you said, there are also sincere political adherents who want to seize the opportunity or just show their colours.
No.1770593
>>1765326Last minute of the Channel 4 rendition of Accidental Death of an Anarchist, best day of my life
No.1770597
>media illiteracy rampant for broadly systemic reasons
<actually, not treating your audience like a dumbass is a glowop
Actually I take it back, thielanon is right about zoomers being in deep shit when it comes to media literacy
No.1770599
>>1770597Zoomers have higher media literacy than all previous generations.
No.1770601
>>1770599Media literacy is shit across the board, but you're going to sit here and tell me that the zoomers are any better than boomers, then I'm going to laugh.
TikTok, cable news, same bullshit
No.1770603
One serious issue I see playing out with any attempt to make you realize that people's beliefs and systems can be destructive is how frequently people just…outright ignore the sequence of events that lead into things. Like with
>>1765273, there's plenty of people who just look at someone as "Wow! Cool badass, i love his attitude" but then just refuse to see it as being a central component of what leads to the parts of the movie that play out that the movie criticizes.
No.1770608
>>1770599>vague claim about an entire generationwhy even type this
if you're not even aware of the international nature of this forum and why that makes this statement inherently dubious, then im not going to believe you're in a position to judge media literacy
No.1770614
>>1765114Roderic Day is a revisionist btw. ignore them at all costs.
No.1770680
>>1765204If they’re capable of launching a meteor across space, why not just use a planet killer and wipe out humanity in one go? They were in an existential war, might as well.
The bugs couldn’t have sent the meteor to hit earth
No.1770713
>>1766136Fuck the setting of SC was so good until they fucked it up with 2, the big bad didn’t even get their own faction, Kerrigan is a monster and gets redeemed because muh woman, raynor’s character arc gets shafted to turn him into a simp for zussy. Remember when he vowed to make Kerrigan pay for her crimes? Blizzard sure doesn’t
Yes I’m fucking mad
No.1771588
>>1770713Err I liked SC2 story way more than SC tbh fam. It is less bleak and boring.
No.1771709
>It shows the inability to watch and understand the film on its own terms above all else.
In a political context like ours, it doesn't really matter what the terms of the movie are. If they wanted to critique reactionary ideologies, they fucked it up so badly they just shouldn't have published it.
No.1771838
>Fanedit.org
>In 2005 an editor removed the romance subplots from Michael Bay's bloated Pearl Harbor movie leaving a standard rollercoaster WW2 action thing.
>They left in most of the US propaganda
>leftypol.org
>edits movieX to remove anticommunist shit and flip the message, adding elements if possible
>seeds it widely
Potential or no?
No.1771871
>>1766051I mean I can understand why you'd get that impression if you were talking to 40k fans, but the Horus Heresy series in particular goes pretty great lengths to portray the Emperor as not only a glorified warlord with a massive ego but also a crippling degree of sociopathy that leads him to do shit that could ONLY make sense if you assume that everyone is going to do exactly what you say without questions because you said so. Take the case of Lorgar for instance, out of all the burly Primarchs leading the various legions on their xenocidal campaigns, Lorgar was by far the chillest. All he ever wanted really was to be a priest, and understandably saw the Emperor as a god due to his accomplishments, spreading his theistic version of the Imperial Truth to all worlds he conquers. So what does big-E do? Well after telling him for the first time that he's not a god…he decides to wait a century before checking up on him. Then when he sees that Lorgar and pals are still spreading that religion he told him not to do, he decides the best response is to send another legion to nuke the Word Bearers most successful city, killing almost everyone in it in the process, followed by bringing the entire Word Bearers legion to the ruins of that city before psychically forcing them to kneel before himself and the other legion and loudly proclaiming that not only is he not a god, but that he's utterly embarrassed and that he considers the Word Bearers miserable failures who totally suck and that if they dont start killing more people they're going to be purged from history. And then he flies off to do whatever. After that, it wasn't a question of "if" Lorgar was going to turn his fanaticism to a much nastier pantheon, but "when". The entire Horus Heresy could have been avoided had the Emperor not had such a stick up in his ass.
No.1771875
>>1767566>Well then why does it matter if a "leftist" movie is interpreted as reactionary by the normies.I think people were dunking on how surface-level their interpretation of the movie was, it's like trying to argue with literal chidren. roderic day is the annoying simpleton that tries to "moralize" movies, as if hollywood could produce actual communist agitprop. The most radical thing it can produce is shit like Starhip Troopers, a sort of parallax of fascism. This movie would be incomprehensible in a society without fascism, to take it not only at face value and as an example of an ideal portrayal of society implies that you already subscribe to fascism in some form, Starship Troopers is not adding or substracting anything.
No.1771890
>>1765121>you need to make the anti-hero you're trying to satirize self-destructive in a way that is impossible to ignore.You can't make it "impossible to ignore" if you find a portrayal of a chauvinist womanizer to be appealing is because you find it aspirational already, you're telling on yourself! Put the onus on yourself here. Not every movie needs to be a childrens' proverb where everyone gets their just deserts.
No.1771895
Right Wing Vapid Schizos defending their attachment to Starship Troopers/American Psycho example 9282894017481902
No.1771904
I never got the impression that wolf of wallstreet was trying to be a parody of anything capitalist. from all I saw the movie celebrated Bellfort. So in a way I saw through the over glamorization, it's kind of what turned me into a communist.
No.1771915
>>1765890somehow the villians are all way more memorable than Batman, maybe people just love villian. They are way more interesting characters than generic "I fight for good"
No.1771932
>>1770713To be fair that xenussy is top tier, but it really struck me that Kerrigan is portrayed as the lost love of his life. Like, didn't he have a wife and kids at some point?
No.1771935
>>1771838Worth a shot. Why not?
No.1771983
>>1771871I think a fundamental issues with WH40K is that all it's "canon" is being written by different authors, all of whom will have different biases and motivations or the setting and how it would be handled.
No.1771985
>>1771838There's a lot of potential with this, especially if you're willing to think outside the box. Consider the possibilities if you were to mash up more than one movie. For instance you could take some jingoistic pro-war slop and cut it together with something anti-war showing the perspective of the people whose country is being destroyed. Like, have a prologue from a movie showing the regular life before the imperialist war, and then suddenly bombs start falling and the movie is now about war destroying what was just established as normal.
No.1772354
>>1771825>ChapoTrapHouse opinion discarded
No.1772366
>>1765114These takes are retarded, the ONLY one that had any point is the part about the Forrest Gump scene and is honestly the weakest part of the film, the rest is fucking retarded because it's him confusing Superstructure - Base relations in culture. Fratboys aren't throwing Don Draper parties because of Mad Men, Mad Men had those parties because its a depiction of those frat-fags, and its shown from the side, as the sickening, fake shit it is. Those who see this and "agree" were already thinking and acting like this, because its clearly shown to be horrid to normal people. Wolf of Wallstreet does it even more so, the vapid, scummy businessman lifestyle is demonstrated as what it is. Anyone who isn't already a scumbag sees Dicaprio snorting coke off her ass and thinks "wow, what a degenerate prick". Fascists already exist and do this, and the satire reflects their actions and shows everyone seeing said satire what this is to those looking in on society.
>Oh noes the satire didn't instantly end the thing it was satirizing, that means the artist "failed" and that its not good!Honestly this Roderic Day guy is just creating a long-winded, nitpicky gaslight of a fallacy all to justify the fact that really, he just doesn't like these films/series.
By the logic of this cretin, films like Thelma and Louise shouldn't exist either because it glorifies suicide and encourages women to deradicalize because they'll end up killing themselves… obviously that isn't true, but if he can interpret these films and tweets however he wants, then why can't I just make some vaguely relevant shit up either?
The fact that this idiot then compares all of these satirical works to "Black Sails" is utterly baffling, because that film is an entirely different genre. You may as well compare Star Wars to Star Trek, they're completely incomparable in terms of the story it aims to tell.
No.1772367
>>1765160So in other words, by blatantly misinterpreting the material they pretend to have a point.
The film looks cool to teenagers who aren't old enough to understand satire, not to adults.
No.1772433
>>1772367The problem you're underestimating is…the average westerner is a fucking moron
And will unironically argue that as a teenager they had the correct interpretation of media made for adults or just stories in general
It's why dumbass Yankee teens will tell you that Naruto was about Rock Lee's bootstraps' yank-flavored underdog faggotry and not the challenge or how to change the world for the better and end endless conflict
No.1772442
>>1772433Anon Naruto was/is a cartoon for children
No.1772452
Star Wars is fascist, Harry Potter is fascist neo-feudal dreck, selfie-obsession is fascist, British soap-operas are fascist, sci-fi is generally fascist, ironic detachment is fascist, porn is fascist. Masscult under imperialism is inherently fascistic. Sorry to spoil your 'fun'.
One day people will ask: "How did Anglo-Americans not see their own fascism?" And part of the answer will be: "Because they were entertained by it".
Many westerners seem to think their 'entertainments' & their consumption of 'culture' in their own countries is somehow detached from the fascist ruling class they live under, & the ruling class is well aware of this situation.
Me: "The culture of fascist society is fascist culture." Some yankee teenager: "Are you a virgin??"
"But i like Star Wars and i'm a progressive??" – Said the yankee teenager as he gorged on his milkshake thickened with the bones of African farmers.
No.1772463
>>1765273The death of Tony Montana is sufficiently esthetic and "apotheosy" to make him a Christic figure to wannabe thugs, somehing to look up to, even if that was not the director's intent.
The don't do crime message is better handled in Goodfellas where Henry doesn't go with a blaze of glory but instead becomes just the kind of nobody loser he despised so much, despaired to the point he daydreams about being shot to escape the mediocrity hell..
If you want to convey an anti fascist message, it's better to show how it just lead to nowhere rather than esthetize the destructive consequences or just outright say fascism bad.
No.1772482
>>1769437>We need something like this but where it is 'satire' of space North KoreaAnon the people who celebrate the obvious satire of fascism were already fascist. Nobody is actually getting their mind changed by this.
No.1772491
>>1772442Not at all, it's just a show with a lot of sincerity, which adults in the West, who are at their core soulless subhumans, naturally despise.
A lot of ideas in Naruto, like how difficult it actually is to overcome hatred built up through genuine generational and social trauma, the fact that mutual pain can both lead to empathy and can also make it impossible to reach people, the feeling of letting go of your "time in the limelight" in a sense as you watch a generation born after your own come into their own as adults, the reality that even for socialists the path towards a lasting peace in a sense is one filled with conflict, the idea of trusting your hopes and dreams to someone else, how you can save a friend going down a dark road especially when they don't want anyone's help, the general spiral of trauma and abuse where striking one leads to the one striking another; a lot of ideas in Naruto can't really be understood either as a child nor as a teenager, honestly I never really understood the story until I was in my 20s
The real problem is that people remember what they liked about the show when they were kids (that is, the jokes and flashy fights) and maybe if they didn't turn edgy when they were 14 and decided it sucked they remember what they liked as teenagers (the characters and the basic plot maybe). I got the most of Naruto when I reread it when I was 25 than when it ended when I was 16.
No.1772492
>>1772452Fascism =/= violence and oppression
Thinking liberal imperialist societies are fascist because of the blood they've spilled reveals liberal sensibilities
Liberalism is simply a bloodstained and evil ideology
No.1772705
>>1772452>Star Wars is fascistDude sleeped on episode 1 to 9
No.1772714
>>1765333>What we need to do is say "No." and just beat people up if they discuss things incorrectly in media, we need to unironically just assault people, straight up.Finally some thing normality around here.
Most based leftypol poster.
No.1772823
>>1772452Meaningless liberal drivel, fascism isn't "what I don't like" it's a specific ideology, this is the same nonsense as people calling everything "right-wing" reactionary, even when it doesn't fit the definition at all.
>>1772442 It being for kids doesn't mean anything, the messaging is universal and can be understood and enjoyed by adults and teens as well. As
>>1772491 states, it's sincere and talks about larger philosophical issues through an interesting, compelling story that also happens to be entertaining.
No.1772828
>>1772433>he average westerner is a fucking moronThe average Westerner isn't even a moron, but an NPC. Resulting from decades of propaganda and poor education causing media illiteracy. But rather than illiteracy through ignorance, it's illiteracy through over-complication, they focus on the trees and miss the forest, it's why they never understand the motivations and actions of Danzo being quite realistic, or why Itachi would slaughter his family, because the principles and ideas behind them are utterly foreign to the modern Western audience.
>It's why dumbass Yankee teens will tell you that Naruto was about Rock Lee's bootstraps' yank-flavored underdog faggotry and not the challenge or how to change the world for the better and end endless conflictI mean there is an element of underdog story to it, but it's just another detail/part of the greater picture regarding the overarching ideal of changing the world for the better and overcoming the cursed cycle of hatred.
No.1773503
>>1771588Do you mean you liked Wings of Liberty or that you actually enjoyed the entirety of SC2?
>>1771932Far from being the love of his life, she was just a chick he kind of flirted with when she was human.
No.1773981
>>1772452>phil greaves copypastaIn the event you're dumb enough to mean this sincerely
stop being a fucking radlib and stop being obsessed with this common dumbshit idea that art = magic brainwashing wavesthank you
No.1774207
>>1772463>If you want to convey an anti fascist message, it's better to show how it just lead to nowhere rather than esthetize the destructive consequences or just outright say fascism bad.Downfall did a good job of this. By the end the Nazis are just pathetic fucks fleeing like rats from a sinking ship. Hitler is a deranged, sad old man, his cronies are shown betraying each other, murdering their own families, etc. The only conclusion you can draw from that film is that they were losers who lost.
No.1774281
>>1772463>The death of Tony Montana is sufficiently esthetic and "apotheosy" to make him a Christic figure to wannabe thugs, somehing to look up to, even if that was not the director's intent.But really isn't this the Christians' fault by coping so hard that they turned getting owned into a sign of divinity?
No.1774301
>>1774281Heroic last stands have always been glorified. Mfs still talk about Thermopylae as some kind of based, honourable act when in reality it was a minor battle in which the Greeks suffered a decisive defeat and the Persians were barely affected.
No.1774350
lol you cant stop some fucking pedestrian moron from badly cherrypicking something from your movie to ape
it doesnt lessen the work of art itself
this is such pointless discourse
No.1774446
>>1769437>>1765137Gonna tell on myself a little here and say the problem with Starship Troopers and Helldivers is you're fighting literal bug-things (and horrifying murder robots, in the case of Helldivers) and not other humans.
>"Fascists always dehumanize their enemies!"Ain't it telling that the term we use is "de-humanize" while in these scifi settings, the things that are being fought are
literally not human. They're not from earth. They're not human by any measurable sense. "Dehumanize" tells, in the name at least, that we should have some innate empathy for fellow human beings. That for us to make the plunge and take another human's life, we have to think of them as something non-human.
In the case of both these pieces of media: we're talking about literal bugs and robots. Not metaphorical ones. Literal. You've got this post right here:
>>1765137I'm sorry, but am I supposed to do the "indian shedding a single tear" thing when you've got this terrifying arachnid-looking thing with a pair of teeth that can cleave a man in half? Of course, the society in Starship Troopers is horrifyingly Fascistic, but thinking that society should be overthrown doesn't mean sympathizing with space bugs that you see tear people apart.
Funny enough I think the Starship Troopers RTS on steam did a better job getting across the message "Fascism is bad" through a series of missions than the movie did.
One mission has a group of miners go on strike because they're being sent into bug tunnels and getting ripped apart by bugs. The miner's union is labeled "bug sympathizers" and so you arrest their union chief. You have a whole series of missions where you try to take this poor bastard to a base
specifically so he can be executed on live TV. Now, his transport crash landed in the middle of bug central, you're spending tons of men just trying to get this guy who'd probably die anyways so you can kill him in front of everyone. A few missions later, once the miner's revolt (which was labeled "bug sympathizers" or some shit) gets suppressed, you have to send your troops into the mines to clear them out of bugs… so essentially the whole thing, the revolt, the execution, it was all a pointless waste of human life and pure showboating.
At no point in that mission do the miners
actually sympathize with the bugs. That'd be fucking retarded. They're just demanding not to be sent to their deaths by an apathetic fascist government.
To me, the "aww, the poor bugs" stuff reeks of this certain strain of left wing thought where you've got this demand to sympathize with everything alien at the cost of taking actual radical action.
No.1775516
>>1774301>>1774281I guess it's human nature, it's talked about in Islam and Sikhism as well, cause there is something based about fighting on till your last man,
No.1775520
>>1775516Coping is human nature, and people will always cope about losing battles by trying to claim some moral victory on the basis of being braver, more honourable, etc. It's the same shit that leads burgers to brag about K/D ratios in Vietnam even though the war was a humiliating defeat in every practical sense.
>>1774446Them being bugs is clearly a metaphor Anon. You might as well say the same thing about the Prawns in District 9.
No.1775552
The last season of Avatar Legend of Korra had this issue to an even greater extent, but it also had the problem of portraying fascists being sorta in the right. So, all the season villains of Korra were politically related, with the first season allegedly being about communism (although it wasn't truly communist as they had the support of the business class), second season spiritual fundamentalism and third anarchism. The last season specifically dealt with militant Fascism. After the assassination of the Earth Queen and the fall of the capital, the Earth Kingdom, which was never truly unified to begin with, descended into anarchy and lawlessness. During this unrest, a military force from the independent city of Zaofu (with the approval of the universe's version of the United Nations) was created to reunite the dispersed regions of the Earth Kingdom and reinstate the monarchy. Leading this expedition was a Zaofu security official named Kuvira, who was given the responsibility to lead the expedition. Its stated that upon seeing the mass poverty, lack of infrastructure and lawlessness of the Earth Kingdom's regions (which existed even before the queen was assassinated), Kuvira realized that bringing back the Earth Kingdom was utterly pointless, Also the queen's successor was her frivolous and weak nephew. Once the reunification was achieved, instead of handing over power to the nephew, Kuvira and her allies took power. that they were already in charge, so it wasn't a sudden power grab. This was presented as a negative development, but the thing is, the only other alternative was returning to a state of dispersed and isolated oppressions. Kuvira's system did bring unity, centralization, and resources to regions that had never had it before.
https://files.catbox.moe/33thj1.mp4https://files.catbox.moe/csrbbn.mp4https://files.catbox.moe/gay5ws.mp4 No.1775778
>>1775520They're a really bad metaphore then.
And not even comparable with District 9, since the film actually tries to put the aundience in the alien shoes, which aren't anything like a bug armada of 2m tall beasts capable a splitting a men in half.
No.1776059
>>1775778>since the film actually tries to put the aundience in the alien shoesYes but Starship Troopers is meant to be a parody of fascist propaganda, so it wouldn't make any sense to do that since fascist propaganda obviously wouldn't. The point in the enemies being horrific bug monsters is that this is how fascists and imperialists portray their enemies. To say "but they actually were horrible monsters" is missing the point.
No.1776083
>>1776074Uhh akshually that's not sympathizing, that's fraternizing
No.1776090
>>1776076That show sucked such donkey balls. I gave up after 3 episodes and that was me being generous with it because of all the hype.
No.1776091
>>1776059>meant to be a parody of fascist propaganda>To say "but they actually were horrible monsters" is missing the point.Is this uygha serious?
Our point is that perhaps, in it's inception it was meant to be an anti-fascist film, but it failed face flat at it.
You say that it makes sense because bugs are how fascists represent their enemies, but in the film bugs aren't just an in-universe propagandistic representation of humanity's enemies, they
are giant bugs.
And as such the film is taking the stance that the fascists are actually right for most of the movie! The enemies of humanity are in-universe actual giant bugs who can rip a men in half with no issue!
No.1776096
>>1776091i'm pretty sure the actual gist of the plot was that the bugs were on the literal other side of the galaxy and didn't represent a major threat until humanity's government decided to just throw meat waves at them by staging a false flag attack on buenos aires.
No.1776103
>>1774446you fell for the bit lol
This is like watching Birth of a Nation and going "no but the uyghurs really were going to rape that white woman"
No.1776104
>>1776096And does the movie imply this literaly 'anywhere'?
The issue with ST is that it just plays the fascist propaganda it's supposed to parody completely straight, the only call out in the entire movie that is unambiguous is the recruitment officer
No.1776111
>>1776103You mean the film that whose publication was immediatly followed by a rise of lynchings?
That movie?
No.1776118
>>1776104> the only call out in the entire movie that is unambiguous is the recruitment officerThe whole part about one of the recruits getting domed in training because of everything being rushed and incompetent isn't unambiguous enough for you? Rico even gets thrown under the bus over it when it's clearly not his fault. Before they're even seeing active combat they're already in the meat grinder.
No.1776128
So is starship troopers cringe or based dialectical materially speaking?
No.1776132
>>1776111Yes, which is the kind of dehumanization ST is satirizing. Except bugs aren't real, so it should be much more obvious that it's fiction. You're even less media literate than those lynchers.
No.1776135
>>1776134Ok and? You can't force retards to get it
No.1776138
>>1776091>And as such the film is taking the stance that the fascists are actually right for most of the movie!This post has "but I did eat breakfast this morning" energy. Yes "in universe" the bugs are horrible monsters, but the point is that the universe as portrayed in the film is meant to represent (and mock) how fascists see the world. The message isn't "this is how the world works," its "this is what fascists actually believe".
>>1776111The difference between the two is that Starship Troopers is making fun of the exact type of worldview expressed in Birth of a Nation.
No.1776144
>>1776138>The message isn't "this is how the world works," its "this is what fascists actually believe". But you cannot establish that without already knowing that the movie is meant to be purely satire, which by itself does a very bad job of establishing itself as such
No.1776150
>>1776076>>1776090I I think it's a well-made show. I just think it's kinda dumb to set it specifically in the Star Wars universe. The Star Wars universe is not a serious place; it's a fantasy series where the galaxy is well a galaxy. However, everyone ends up meeting each other around the corner, and time spans are so pointless. The authority of galaxy-spanning empires disappears with regards to the story. However, there's nothing wrong with that. Star Wars is fine for the type of story it wants to tell, but it should never be a great story about political intrigue or the horrors of wars
No.1776153
>>1776135>>1776132Then it failed as a propaganda piece. If you need a PhD to decode what the movie is actually saying then perhaps you did a bad job of transmitting your message and idea
No.1776154
>>1776153 (me)
If it actually did a good job at transmitting the idea that fascism is dumb etc, we wouldn't still have this conversation 20 years lster
No.1776160
There is a reason why nobody is discussing what the "Great Dictator" was actually trying to say because it does a good job of transmitting it's message. ST does not
No.1776161
>>1776153>If you need a PhD to decode what the movie is actually saying then perhaps you did a bad job of transmitting your message and ideaI think you should be looking at yourself and wondering why it was apparently so difficult for you to notice rather than blame the movie.
No.1776164
>>1776153>>1776154There's some dumb centrist libs who didn't get it, but the fascists and fascist adjacent people are willfully misinterpreting it.
No.1776165
>>1776160 It also probably wouldnt get published today
No.1776166
>>1776161Because when I originally saw it I had no political education and itbwas easy to interpret as B movie about evil bugs.
While even before that stuff like the Great Dictator and Sturmtruppen (
https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmtruppen) where unmistakable
No.1776186
>>1776160The Great Dictator is a parody contemporary to fascism and is trying to show why it's bad in terms of morality and harm. Starship Troopers approaches the subject after fascism lost (and is assumed to be bad) and is comparing it to imperialist liberalism, and contrasting how it functions with how it sees itself. The movies are approaching the subject in very different ways.
No.1776188
>>1775552>>1775637Kuvira was meant to be generic dictatorship but instead she just appears to be a based ML, and looked good too, so that's why they made her a generic mecha villain out of the blue See
>>>/hobby/2562 CTRL+F Stalin
No.1776195
>>1776171Not quite. Chaplin plays 2 characters in the film: Adenoid Hinkle (Hitler parody) and a Jewish barber living in the ghetto. At the end of the flim there's a mix-up and the Jewish barber gets put into the dictator's place and gives that speech.
It does literally just spell it out for the audience in that speech, and it also showed this character's shitty life in the ghetto being harassed by nazi police. It's so overt because it came out in 1940, before America had developed its current image of Nazis as cartoon villains and most evil bad guys ever. The point of the movie is to explain to people who don't realize it yet that the nazis and fascism are bad. Starship Troopers assumes that you already understand this.
No.1776203
>>1776153Maybe the message was lost when the movie was approved for production and hollywood porkies wanted to make profit from it. Deep political messages dont sell like action movies.
No.1776204
>>1776103So you missed the point about the bugs not being human in any sense, to the point that they're a hive-mind that also has no empathy for us? This is literally the liberal retardation of calling orcs a representation of black people and exposing their own racism, except even stupider.
Birth of a Nation is an entirely different idea and is predicated on the dehumanization of negroes. The bugs aren't human to be dehumanized and they're not being dehumanized, that's not the point of the ST films' propaganda.
No.1776219
>>1776171Yes but the film is pretty unambiguos even before that. Look up the other example if you want something a bit more straight
No.1776221
>>1776204>So you missed the point about the bugs not being human in any sense, to the point that they're a hive-mind that also has no empathy for us? This is literally the liberal retardation of calling orcs a representation of black people and exposing their own racism, except even stupider. No, it's a representation of how fascists portray their enemies. The whole point is that you shouldn't take this kind of portrayal at face value.
>Birth of a Nation is an entirely different idea and is predicated on the dehumanization of negroes. The bugs aren't human to be dehumanized and they're not being dehumanized, that's not the point of the ST films' propaganda.Neither fictional portrayal is human or realistic. Both of them portray the outgroup as monstrous and predatory without any redeeming or humanizing qualities. We don't have a frame of reference for what "the bugs" would really be like because they're not real, but by the same token most people viewing dehumanizing propaganda also have no or minimal outside frame of reference for what the real group of people is like.
No.1776225
>>1776195>Starship Troopers assumes that you already understand this.Presumably people in 1997 understood this.
No.1776230
>>1776221>The whole point is that you shouldn't take this kind of portrayal at face value.But it's not just the in-universe fascies propagabda depicting them as bugs. They ARE two metres tall alien thingies with six legs and shit
No.1776231
>>1776225Yeah that's what I meant. The Great Dictator was released in October 1940, over a year before Pearl Harbor brought the US into the war. The context for people's understanding of fascism was very different.
No.1776234
>>1776225>people in 1997 understood thisDid they at all?
> Upon its release, Starship Troopers received generally negative reviews and was unpopular with critics and audiences.[k] Audience polls by CinemaScore found that moviegoers gave the film an average grade of "C+" on an A+ to F scale.[140]
> Many reviewers did not interpret Starship Troopers as a satire and believed that its fascist themes were sincere.[l] An editorial in The Washington Post described the film as pro-fascist, made, directed, and written by Nazis.[m] Stephen Hunter said the film was "spiritually" and "psychologically" Nazi and born of a Nazi-like imagination. Hunter described it as a "perversion" of Erich Maria Remarque's 1929 novel, All Quiet on the Western Front, which portrays the physical and mental tolls of war, by glorifying the horrors of war.[143][144] Others, such as Empire, argued that the "constant fetishizing of weaponry" and "[Aryan] cast", combined with the militaristic imagery in RoboCop and Total Recall, made it seem as though Verhoeven admired Heinlein's world more than he claimed.[145][142] Those who recognized the satirical elements said that the film walked a thin line between "overblown melodrama" and parody, with Verhoeven's RoboCop-style "news breaks", but that these ideas were often indistinguishable from the promotion of the "fascist utopia" it was satirizing.[n] Salon argued that even with good satire, it is "self-defeatingly stupid" to use it in a story that wants its audience to care about its characters, and that Starship Troopers fails to replace Heinlein's themes with a worthwhile ideal. The Los Angeles Times wrote that Verhoeven had "lost his touch" with satire by failing to respect his audiences' intelligence and make the world of Starship Troopers interesting or convincing.[146][149]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers_(film) No.1776241
>>1776230The whole point is that the movie is in-universe recruitment propaganda. Everything is filtered through that lens.
>They ARE two metres tall alien thingies with six legs and shitYou are saying "the propaganda portrays them as bugs, so they must be bugs"
No.1776249
>>1776230They are good boys
No.1776251
>>1776234Everything you quoted shows that people did in fact understand that fascism is bad. Their criticism is that they thought the movie wasn't clear enough in being anti-fascist.
No.1776252
>>1776241This is just cope.
I am sorry but if you intend
>>1776149 there are already thousands of films which simply use this (or the equivalent with a book) as a means to close the movie while protraying everything else completely straight and serious.
I do belive and understand that the original authorial intent was to make an anti-fascist film, but they failed badly in their execution
No.1776255
>>1776251>Their criticism is that they thought the movie wasn't clear enough in being anti-fascist.You mean the thing I've been saying for
THE ENTIRE THREAD!? No.1776263
>>1776241 It doesnt really show that framing very well.
No.1776286
>>1776252>I do belive and understand that the original authorial intent was to make an anti-fascist film, but they failed badly in their executionThat's completely different from the argument that this isn't what the movie is doing. I agree with the criticism that the execution was poor btw.
>>1776255That's not what those posts were talking about.
>>1776195>The point of [The Great Dictator] is to explain to people who don't realize it yet that the nazis and fascism are bad. Starship Troopers assumes that you already understand this.>>1776225>>1776234>Presumably people in 1997 understood this.>Did they at all? [posts a list of statements by people who clearly understand fascism is bad]If you can't even track what's being said over a couple of posts ITT no wonder you are confused about what the movie is trying to do.
No.1776360
>>1776335>Just here to say that Fight Club is an Anarchist propaganda masterpiece.No its not.
It's very obviously about men.
The media compression by you lot in general is so dire.
No.1776469
>>1776360I mean obviously a big part of the film is about masculinity, specifically championing a recreated masculinity, but to say the entire movie is about masculinity and to discard an Anarchist interpretation of the movie is idiotic. Tyler Durden's ideology is obviously most similar to Anarchism if you really examine it, idk how you can see it any other way tbh.
No.1776481
>>1776335>>1776469Yeah I think Fight Club is actually kind of an endorsement of anarchist terrorism. Sure the protag tries to stop Tyler, but then he just seems to accept it after he kills him and reintegrates with his split personality.
Now the Matrix is absolutely an endorsement of anarchist terrorism.
No.1776485
>>1776481A reviewer from the 2000s once pointed out that every time a character says
>The Matrixjust mentally replace it with
<The Spectacleand the movie's subtext becomes screamingly obvious
No.1776558
>>1776469Tyler doesn't have an ideology.
Sounds like projection tbqh fam.
No.1776591
>>1776558His ideology was anarchism.
No.1776593
>>1776591I mean his group was literally called project
anarchy mayhem. I don't know how much more explicit could be.
No.1776596
>>1776591If you wat to believe that, sure. I'm telling you it's a schizo theory nased on nothing though.
No.1776622
>>1776335Fight club is about bunch of retards establishing a cult like “community” that does random acts of “terror” in an attempt to cope with alienation caused by capitalism and contradictionary ideas of masculinity. Idk how you got the idea that it’s about anarchism, when the fight club guys are just reactionaries who have no real political ideology, except a contradictionary understanding of manhood.
No.1776623
>>1776622Their goal is to tear down all the structures of authority.
No.1776625
>>1776623Is it really? It seems to me that they just wanted to retvrn to the times when men would wage war and be baddass. They to me seem more fash adjacent, not exactly one to one, but close enough, they ignolidge that capitalism is flawed but they lack proper understanding why and or how to really react so they attempt to recreate the fantasy idea of the past glory days. Calling the fight club/project mayham anarchist seems like a bit of a disservice to actual anarchists.
No.1776632
>>1776625>Is it really? It seems to me that they just wanted to retvrn to the times when men would wage war and be baddass. They to me seem more fash adjacent, not exactly one to one, but close enough, they ignolidge that capitalism is flawed but they lack proper understanding why and or how to really react so they attempt to recreate the fantasy idea of the past glory days. Calling the fight club/project mayham anarchist seems like a bit of a disservice to actual anarchists.There are many flavors of anarchism because it's such a vague and nebulous concept. You could say maybe they're closest to anprim Kazynsky kind of shit but they weren't so hyper focused on technology per se.
No.1776642
>>1776632They were more driven by the desire for destruction. Which reminds me about some philosophers(whose name I cant remember) theory that destruction and creation are two ways in which we interact with our reality and capitalism doesn’t really let us create things, so people who are alienated and have no desire/ability etc to create decide to just destroy/kill in an attempt to leave some kind of mark on this world to change it in some way.
No.1776645
>>1776625>>1776632And remember the Fight Club was just the jumping off point. It was to attract the members and warm them up so to say.
>>1776642It wasn't just about wanton destruction. Remember their final plan was very specific. It was to destroy the credit card companies and erase everyone's debt.
No.1776650
>>1776645I mean if Kazanyski can be called an anarchist I don't see how they can't. There plan was a lot more structured and goal oriented than sending bombs in the mail to randos.
No.1777022
>>1776311>>1776171>In his 1964 auto- biography, Chaplin admitted, “Had I known the actual horrors of the German concentration camps, I could not have made “The Great Dictator;” I could not have made fun of the homicidal insanity of the Nazis.”Thoughts?
No.1777030
>>1765183>An example of satire would be Stephen Colbert>people generally knew it was satire and he wasn't being serioushaha I wish. I remember when he took over the late show and /tv/ thought he made a heel turn.
No.1777075
>>1777022Fair reaction, but I think he's saying more that he wouldn't have the stomach for it than that he did something wrong. It's interesting in the context of the thread thoughever.
For better or worse his and other silly portrayals of the nazis became a trope unto itself. Personally I prefer the Hitler you see from Downfall but I understand why people like silly Hitler since it helps take away the power of his image. I don't really like it because I think it also trivializes him, especially since we are overdoing it a bit now. Reducing the nazis to a punchline might be soothing but it also creates a sense that we don't need to worry about them anymore when obviously we do. It's almost like a culture-wide coping mechanism that's keeping us from reckoning more seriously with the realities of the nazis and their crimes (and of the wider currents of fascism). This isn't quite the same thing as failing to satirize fascism by making it look too cool, but it does have a similar function in failing to shape the public consciousness in a way that helps to combat fascism.
No.1777237
>>1765114This faggot talks to his sockpuppets all day about pointless shit such as this kind of meta media criticism. He is only connected to a blog similar to the widely acclaimed speaker, writer, journalist, and political analyst Caleb Maupin's CPI website reposting other credible texts mixed in with homebrew screeds
No.1777278
>>1777154>I believe this experience gave me a stronger anti-Nazi perspective than any sort of parody.For me it was watching Indiana Jones with my dad and asking about the swastika flags, which was followed by a 10 minute lecture about what a despicable symbol it was and how evil the Nazis were.
No.1777793
>>1777790The giant gingerbread man was clearly a metaphor for the third world masses rising up against capitalist imperialism. Fairy Godmother singing "I need a hero" was obviously a reference to the Nazi Aryan ubermensch.
No.1777808
>>1777790>>1777793Shark Tale is a movie about how being a vegan is literally gay.
No.1777817
>>1777808shut up idiot putting meat in your throat is the opposite of gay
No.1777839
>>1776091>You say that it makes sense because bugs are how fascists represent their enemies, but in the film bugs aren't just an in-universe propagandistic representation of humanity's enemies, they are giant bugs.Lots of anti-communist accusations are "true" too. The fact that they're giant bugs shouldn't matter, neither should it matter that we see them acting brutally to the human characters. I'm sure the viet cong were really brutal during war too as they fought off invaders. We never see what Arachnid society is like outside of it defending itself from alien invasion.
Hell, it must be pretty sophisticated actually to support such a massive population on desert planets. Since we never see any other flora or fauna, they have to be getting their systems sustenance some other way. Maybe all those "warrior" bugs are actually harvesters, using their mandibles as plows and their cutting limbs as scythes for cultivating fungus underground.
No.1777841
>>1777808>>1777817That's what he said?
No.1777854
>>1776204>So you missed the point about the bugs not being human in any sense, to the point that they're a hive-mind that also has no empathy for us?There's a whole segment introducing the concept of a brain bug where the point is "yeah they're like us." Also that scene where the black psycho is unloading on an arachnid where the bug is wounded, whimpering, and the last thing you see before it explodes into green gak is its big round eye.
Oh, and the ultimate scene with the brain bug where it is visibly fearing for its life.
No.1777867
>>1776625>they just wanted to retvrn to the times when men would wage war and be baddass.this is just a fundamentally flawed and objectively wrong interpretation of the masculinity espoused in fightclub, they don't want to "retvrn", they don't want to revive a traditional masculinity, this is made pretty clear in the bus scene. Tyler looks at an ad featuring an overly muscular and archetypal masculine man and with disdain condemns it, uttering "is that what a man looks like?" proceeding to laugh.
The movie says men have gotten weak and have been emasculated by modern society, but what does the movie mean when it says "weak" or "strong"? Strength and masculinity is exemplified in self-actualization and to not let meaningless societal constructs pull you down. Tyler points a gun at a cashier, not to urge him to "retvrn to traditional masculinity" but instead to forge his own path and to fulfill his dreams. In Raymond Hessel's case this dream is being a veterinarian, far from a traditionally masculine pursuit whatsoever.
No.1777874
>>1776558idk how anyone can look at Tyler Durden, clearly an extremely politically charged ideologue and say that he "doesn't have an ideology" Were you too distracted by the explosions and violence to comprehend that there was a solid ideological basis behind everything Tyler is saying?
I recommend rewatching the movie and listening to what Tyler advocates for throughout. Tyler Durden is based.
No.1777882
>>1777874Tyler does have an ideology, but it's (and I mean this factually, not as a negative!) reactionary, a return to no credit and no feminized consumerist modernism.
It's not fash or conservative, it's revolutionary, pro-worker and possibly even anti-capitalist, but it is ultimately an attempt to retvrn within a viciously pro-masculine worldview. It's somewhere around a Ted out of 10, better than liberalism but not gonna make it.
No.1777892
>>1777882>it's reactionary>it's revolutionary, pro-workeri don't think these things are compatible, nor do i think your understanding of being reactionary is that good if you think Tyler is one, as you explained his ideology is pro-worker, revolutionary, and anti-capitalist.
>retvrn within a viciously pro-masculine worldview. I have explained why conceptualizing Tyler as a "retvrn" chvd is blatantly wrong in
>>1777867 No.1778006
>>1765292
Keynes would item dupe in minecraft if he were alive today
No.1778700
The 40k thing reminds me of people who miss the point of Dune. Herbert wasn't saying, "Feudalism and religious fanaticism are good," but they are more "easily occurring" in structures, Herbert was definitely into some Hegelian historical materialism, he was clearly interested in what a post rationalist and post liberal society after the Butlerian Jihad would look like and, historically speaking, feudalism was one of the most widespread and stable social forms in human civilization. I dont think he just thought it would be a cool contrast to sci fi that championed rationalism and technological utopias etc. I think he was like, well humanity is complicated and if a ruling class ever became powerful enough to basically exist in a state that is incomprehensible to the rest of the species (i.e. the navigators), what kind of society would they prefer? One that is predictable and stable, and Paul pretty much chastises the guild for letting their culture stagnate for so long in Dune.
No.1778724
>>1777874I've seen the movie many times I seen the movie when it came out ffs and I have it on dvd still, i own the book which I have read multiple times too.
You really are simply reading into s story about the narrator/tyler what you want probably because you eel it's waow totally epic and based or something. Based in nothing but rejection. Childish.
No.1778972
>>1777790PDF attached, pp 59–72
Shoutout to annas-archive.org and other shadow libraries - I'm not paying $30 for a chapter.
No.1779025
>>1779021Yeah, but they're big bugs. You ever stop to consider that?
No.1779027
>>1777892>your understanding of being reactionary'Reactionary' is a term to describe political views calling to restore society to how it was before, to restore what they see as a positive value now missing. Concepts like reinstating a monarchy, enforcing traditional social values, or reverting to pre-capitalist modes of production are all reactionary concepts.
It's not a slur that applies to everything 'right-wing', in fact real right-wing movements like classical fascism are progressive (as opposed to conservative) in many ways, in this case economically - as a grandchild of syndicalism, but ultimately shit and horrible and should be fought to the death as delusional class-collaborationist garbage with tradfag characteristics. Capitalism was extremely progressive, and it's clearly a tragedy which needs to die. So, and hopefully you aren't the one who needs to hear this, don't fall into the idealistic simplistic trap of assuming terms like progressive/reactionary and left/right are all congruent aligned values which map to good/bad. Ideas are far more complex than that.
You can have a proletarian anti-capitalist anarchistic movement which is reactionary - see the Zapatistas. They're based as fuck, but they are ultimately restoring indigenous freedoms and values in reaction to neo-liberalism, so to call them progressive is a lie. In most ways, they're fighting to return to the status quo ante, which is great because they had an alright system and neo-liberal encroachment will not benefit them despite utilizing a more advanced mode of production.
Reactionary. Pro-worker. No
inherent contradiction, it's just that in most of our situations, the status quo ante is capitalism and feudalism and the status quo is a slightly more social capitalism, so reactionarism in our context is almost-if-not-always anti-worker.
>I have explained why conceptualizing Tyler as a "retvrn" chvd is blatantly wrongI'm not calling them chinless. I agree, their vision of masculinity is evidently not about masculine posturing, about conventional masculinity, and I don't consider Tyler conservative in any way, but nonetheless they are against the perceived feminization or at least perversion of masculinity under liberal capitalism, that is their concept of men being weak. They see the power and strength of men being a forgotten value which must be restored. This doesn't imply they envision this the same way as a chinlet who thinks women bolong in le kitchen, but pro-masculinity, being against 'men raised by women', is undeniably a vital part of their worldview.
That component is a gray mix between progressism and reactionarism - they want to revert perceived feminization of society, but they aren't exactly fighting to restore the previous conception of gender roles either.
>>1778724>i have read/watched this word many times and still can't grasp its obvious, explicitly stated social dialoguesI'm honestly concerned for you, comrade.
No.1779035
Carmen should have got her fasc tits out at some point in the film that's all I'm saying
No.1779056
>>1777790Rewatching Shrek 2 now, last time was when I was far far too young to understand social commentary beyond 'being different is ok'.
Even already I'm seeing lines like "somehow, I don't think I'll be welcome at the country club", hinting at what I first considered a racism analogy, but probably more fittingly, a class analogy, as the premise of the story. The royal upper-class Fiona has married a crass lower-class brute, could one look towards Meghan Markle as a similar affair to this story?
No.1779101
>>1779056Shrek 2 is pretty concerned with class but less with race. Shrek 1 has a much more obvious race subtext, between pushing fairytale creatures into a ghetto and the way everyone treats Shrek (except the character with a black voice).
No.1779198
>>1779101I completely agree, it was just my first impression when hearing 'country club'. The classic posh dinner trope, they even used the word 'brute' in the film. Fiona tries to euphemize the swamp by saying Shrek 'owns his own land'.
I had seen a few snippets mentioning capitalism metaphors, but after just watching it, it's not 'reading into it', it's reading it. The Hollywood characterisation of Far Far Away as urban and celebrity-filled is only dominated by the literal dozens of brand name parodies in the introduction montage.
In the Knights scene, attached, there are blatant, intentional depictions of (quote) "POLICE BRUTALITY!" with the pepper mace and
what may or may not be implied drug planting, although Puss in Boots's unusual insult stands out as also intentional.
No.1779330
<Class Divide: Shrek's disdain for the ruling class highlights societal inequalities.
< Shrek's swamp symbolizes the commons, disrupted by encroaching bourgeois forces.
< the factory scene in Shrek 2 showcases the harsh realities of labor exploitation.
<The fairy tale creatures' forced relocation mirrors gentrification and displacement
< The portrayal of Shrek as an outsider mirrors the alienation experienced by the proletariat in capitalist society.
No.1779331
>>1779198>Puss: You capitalist pig-dogInteresting. Not surprised I never caught it before though since it's hard to even hear what he's saying.
Antonio Banderas who plays Puss has been in some fairly political movies like Frida and Evita, and one of his earlier movies Requiem for a Spanish Peasant has him playing the titular character who's murdered by Francoists. He's also played Pancho Villa and Benito ᴉuᴉlossnW (when he was a socialist) for TV movies before Shrek 2. So it's probably at least partially a shout out to his other roles.
No.1779494
>>1779493
GENERATION TESTO SPRITZEN
GENERATION VORM SPIEGEL WIXEN
No.1779875
>>1765292
Damn, Keynes was a fucking retard. Make-work is such a pathetic concept, as if there has ever been any lack of actually productive work to be done.
No.1779888
>>1779875He was being sarcastic he wasn't actually suggesting that that be carried out. He was pointing out that economic activity can be easily revived and people didn't have to sit on their ass and pray the depression away like what retarded libertarians were preaching.
No.1779974
>>1778972>>1777790First off, you're only looking at this and second you're not considering the studio's actual history. DreamWorks was created by Jeffrey Katzenberg after he felt he deserved the president position at Disney. He left and started his own studio out of spite. Therefore, DreamWorks' early years were split between two visions, Katzenberg's vision to imitate Disney and surpass it, and another vision by the various independent filmmakers he hired to basically mock it. DreamWorks invested a lot of money in elaborate "epic movies" on par with Disney (such as The Prince of Egypt, The Road to El Dorado', Spirit, and Sinbad). Despite the first two being received well, their profits were mediocre, and the financial loss of the last two basically killed the vision for DreamWorks, as well as contributed to the decline of 2D animation in general. Meanwhile, the subversive approach, which based its identity on poking fun at established Disney tropes and way more tounge in cheek jokes, was well-received and made a lot of money. Even crap like Shark Tale made a lot of money
No.1791081
>>1769437>>1774446There is a solution, makes the bugs act like Animals who just want to protect their offsprings, simple solution.
No.1791096
>>1781443Down and out in Mordor and loving it
No.1796063
>>1765114the shower scene was the first time I saw titties on
a movie.
No.1796065
>>1796063Did you pop a boner
No.1806980
Here's the thing
I was thinking about the Nietzsch today, as you do.
Roderic Day is pretty acute in his analysis. Where we diverge is that he calls himself a "counter-propagandist".
In actuality that is a propagandist just the same.
I forgot where I was going with this but it's like anti-machiavellianism. Being against The Prince is a very standard liberal position. But they never tried out being a prince or a tyrant. They are lacking perspective. Anyway, this probably means nothing to you.
No.1811619
This whole thing reminds me of how media can shape common preceptions. Are you all familiar with the whole notion that medieval people didn't bathe and thought the earth was flat? most of those ideas are almost entirely the fault of Mark Twain
During the Enlightenment at large, they disparaged the medieval era, just as they had during the Renaissance, but never to the outrageously legendary degree that it became during the Victorian age. Petrarch and Newton and Franklin all knew that Aristotle had determined the Earth was round and that everyone since him knew it.
Around 1820, a Scottish author and scholar named Sir Walter Scott wrote a deeply researched medieval novel called "Ivanhoe" that proved immensely popular and resulted in a surge of medievalism. Unfortunately it also proved popular with exactly the wrong sort of person - American southern slave owners, who suddenly began to style themselves as medieval aristocrats.
This cased Mark Twain to effectively crusade against this book, and wrote "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court", which started and popularized every single myth about the Middle Ages you could possibly think of for the sake of the self-emolument of 1880's New England, because it was just sooooo so much better than those poor backwards savages who couldn't read, who thought the earth was flat, who bathe once a year, who didn't know colors other than grey or brown, and who didn't even have the brain cells to understand Leibniz' theory of Calculus or Adam Smith's Invisible Hand of the Market. It is the most insidious, insipid self-aggrandizing tripe you could ever think to imagine, and that colored the perceptions of the middle ages for over a century; even today, despite the numerous attempts to rehabilitate medievalism since Tolkien, the myth is so ingrained in Hollywood that every medieval production looks like it was filmed through a camera covered in mud.
No.1811620
>>1811619Mark Twain was a redditor
No.1811676
So I think I figured out the issue I have with Starship Troopers as satire.
Now, in my personal experience the "satire" argument has always just seemed to be "Well it's satire because people say it's satire." There's not much given to what makes it satirical. It's campy, sure, and the world its depicting ain't a good one, but is that enough to make it satire? Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" has a scene where she justifies the deaths of a couple of children because their dad works for the IRS. You could take Atlas Shrugged and not change a thing when adapting it to a movie, and if the director just winks and says "Uhh, well, it's satire" does that change anything? Sure there are elements in the work that seem satirical, what with its stark division of the world into "Looters" and "Producers" but the thing is that was Ayn Rand's real view. At what point do you play something so straight that it goes from satire to genuine propaganda? I was listening to an excerpt of the new QAA podcast and they're discussing Starship Troopers, making fun of the reviewers who call it Nazi-like with snide "Well you were so close to getting it!"
Like, does just saying "No, you don't get it, it's satire" As gorgeous, patriotic, young people kill bugs do anything? Will you do a 180 and say "Man, I was a bit worried about Triumph of The Will but now I understand the director made it as a joke." It feels a lot like some horny teenager asking for Overwatch skins where you can see everyone's feet and trying to justify it using flimsy excuses to pretend he doesn't have a fetish.
But beyond that, it got me thinking to how Fascism sustains itself. I mentioned elsewhere on here Trotsky's apparent prediction that the Third Reich would end with some internal rebellion, and if it didn't then clearly they'd have to rethink some fundamentals of Marxism. I think Starship Troopers helps us understand that mindset for a bit. Just taking it at face value, for however much it's "satirical" we see the bugs as completely alien killing machines. We see them bisect some poor fucker, melt some people, suck out dudes' brains, and it's horrifying. Are we supposed to imagine that they adhere to some "rules of war"? Or that they conduct diplomacy? Like, if the humans in the movie lost their war, does anyone even think they'll be getting some peace with honor? That it wouldn't mean the death of every human on earth? You can say the state kicked the hornets nest, you can point out how awful it is, but at the end of the day are you going to risk the bugs winning?
Traitors are loathed in every society but traitors during wartime, especially existential wars, have their names kept alive in infamy. Benedict Arnold, Andrey Vlasov, Vidkun Quisling, Pierre Laval, etc. We've got an instinctual revulsion against the man who would throw open the city gates during a siege, and lionize those who stand by their nation even should it be a tyranny. Rommel is remembered as "the good German" in WWII, while even as he claimed to be fighting for the ideals of 1917 or an end to "Stalinist Dictatorship" Vlasov is remembered as the scumbag who sold out his people.
We can call it the result of decades of propaganda, but I think it goes back further than that. When the first Humans warred amongst each other or struggled against nature, we likely had the ideal entrenched into us that the man who turns against the tribe is a unique evil. A person who poisons his own peoples' wells, destroys their defences, all behind their back is something societies couldn't afford.
Even if one acknowledges that the society of Starship Troopers is horrific and fascist and insane. Even if you think the state kicked the hornet's nest and the people were paying the price. Even if you acknowledge that the bugs are on one side of the galaxy and earth is on the other. You'll still have to reckon with the fact that you don't want the bugs to win. If they win, then you can imagine everyone you know and care about being annihilated. It doesn't matter if your government started it, given the choice between the artillery firing on your home or theirs, you're gonna choose theirs.
And I think this is how, to some extent, the Nazi regime could survive without a mass uprising. Even when the Red Army were shelling Berlin and even when the Nazis were conscripting children to die for their cause, a German would be more willing to run or take up arms against the Soviets, rather than turn their weapons on the people who'd put them in such an awful situation.
The same happened in WWI. I believe the German Social Democrats justified supporting the war citing fear of "reactionary tsarist Russia" subjugating them. It's what makes Lenin such a unique historical personality for being against the war to the point he actively hoped his nation would "lose" in some sense. That isn't to say people are inherently pro or anti war. Rather, one of the great social taboos is to actively advocate for your people losing a war. You can acknowledge the war is terrible, but once the artillery starts shelling your home, the last thing people want to think is you'll be shouting "Here! Bomb over here!"
Starship Troopers just takes it a step further, by not just portraying a dehumanized enemy, but an inhuman one.
No.1811678
>>1811619>It is the most insidious, insipid self-aggrandizing tripe you could ever think to imagine, and that colored the perceptions of the middle ages for over a centuryHe was dunking on slave owners so its fully justified.
No.1811682
>>1811676Anon it's satire because it's a mockery of how fascism sees the world, they see their enemies as bugs and themselves as handsome chads when in reality their enemies are human beings and fashoids are as degenerate as anybody else.
No.1811683
>>1811623Starship Troopers isn't trying to parody fascism by doing the soyjak method. The whole point of the movie is to explore the seductive nature of propaganda. Whether or not it succeeds at that is a separate question from the fact that that's what the intention is. Saying that we should just portray fascists as the soyjak or otherwise make them out to be cringe hypocrites is missing the entire point that this is the wrong way to look at politics. It doesn't really matter if /pol/ users have no chin. They're not bad because they're ugly. They're bad because of what they stand for and what they do. You don't need to introduce any other problems or flaws to make them out to be bad guys, in fact if you do add some element like that to clearly signal the fascists as bad guys, you take away from any commentary you make on why the fascism itself is bad.
No.1811691
>>1811682See my problem with that is that in the "reality" of starship troopers, the bugs are literal bugs and the handsome chads are handsome chads. I mean, that's how Jean Claude Van Damme is in real life. Are we going to now say that Birth of a Nation was a "satire of racism" because it expressed white supremacist views, as silly as those views may actually be? And it's not like Fascists respond by saying "NOOOOOOOOOOOO! STOP SAYING OUR BELIEFS ARE JUST RIGHTEOUS HUMANS VERSUS EVIL SPACE BUGS!" They've more than happily claimed it and said: yes, this is 100% what I believe, this is what I think a good society should be.
I mean, to be perfectly honest I've watched Starship Troopers with quite a few people over the years. We're all having a good time laughing and quoting shit from the movie:
>"I'm doing my part!">"I'm from Buenos Aires, and I say kill 'em all!">"The only good bug is a dead bug!"Yes it's campy and we don't take the film too seriously. But the line between irony and taking it "seriously" is razor thin. Y'know you get to the Klendathu Drop scene where the first wave of conscripts get slaughtered, and one of us says "Man, could you imagine having to fight in that hellhole?" Like you're already picturing yourself as part of the Fascist regime there.
Let me use another example. I've seen that webm of the Romanovs getting executed plenty of times on here. Does any Leftist feel like they're the subject of "satire" watching it? If anything I'd say we've reclaimed it, to the point we're just calling it "based" when we see some NKVD guy gunning down literal children. We've got a copypasta on here from Leninhat justifying the execution of the Romanovs. If someone were to come around here and say "Nooo, you don't understand, that video of the Romanovs getting executed is just satirizing how Leftists see the world!" I guarantee a majority of us would say "No, that IS our beliefs." If they were gonna make all the NKVD officers handsome, and portray little Alexei or Anastasia Romanov as vampires, would we think the satire is any less relevant to us? Or insulting? Or somehow striking a blow against our beliefs? Or would we just laugh in good humor and reclaim the thing as a semi-ironic piece of propaganda?
No.1811693
>>1811691Others have said it well in the thread Anon, you aren't going to reach fascists with anti-fascist satire. The point is to reach ordinary people and see how a fascist worldview can only function in a literal fantasy setting where your enemies are giant insects.
No.1811701
>>1811700
She had concentration camps bro.
No.1811702
>>1811701I thought this was common knowledge but the difference between morally grey and evil is whether the villain is hot. If a fascist dictator looks like a hot woman, then they’re morally grey.
No.1811715
>>1811706
My argument is that if it’s satirizing Fascism it does as good a job as Triumph of The Will. Shit there are people who played Bioshock and got interested in Objectivism/Ayn Rand’s philosophy despite the whole message of the game, shown explicitly, is that it doesn’t work. If a game where Objectivism specifically turned a society into some nightmare city of drug addicts gets people interested in Objectivism, what does a movie that depicts an idealized form of Fascism do? Bioshock at least shows Objectivist society being some nightmare dystopia.
Like if I were to just broadcast Triumph of The Will would I get a pass by just winking at the audience and saying “This is what Fascists actually believe, folks!”
It’s something I’ve been thinking about playing Helldivers with my friends. I’ve seen plenty of people ironically change their fbi.gov status to “spreading democracy” and spout shit like “every bullet is a ballot!” And it seems almost as if you can sleepwalk people into goose stepping as long as you convince them it’s “ironic.”
It might just be because I watched “Look Who’s Back” and the whole message of that movie is that, essentially, people fall for Fascism if you present it as some meme or inside joke. And so seeing a bunch of Germans literally be buddy-buddy with Adolf Hitler as long as they have some distance or can convince themselves that it’s just “ironic” to throw up a Nazi salute is, frankly, unnerving.
Honestly I think Look Who’s Back kind of ruins starship troopers in that regard. Because it shows a genuine danger in “ironic” fascism. Worth a watch at least.
No.1811939
>>1811704No, that was the public opinion at release
>>1776234 No.1811952
>>1811724Anon, how about you come down your self-righteous enlightened high-horse for 5 minutes?
> It will attract fascists> Maybe you should ask yourself why you find the society of Starship Troopers to be desirable?Nobody is born a commie, liberal or fascist; proletarians end up in these ideologies because they think they address their issues. Given our present conditions, if you produce, even ironically, unabashed propaganda people will evaluate it at least somewhat positively. So, instead of moralfagging over how you didn't fall for it, you should dig for the material reason as to why it had such effect. Note again that even upon release a lot of people and critics evaluated it as a fascistic piece of media
>>1776234 No.1811958
CPusa anon cites a much better alternative for what the movie was aiming for and failed at
>>1774446 No.1813240
Aesthetics matter. If you don't know this, you haven't learned anything
Read Hegel's derivation of essence and appearance.
No.1813245
>>1811683>They're not bad because they're ugly. Aesthetics just matter. Full stop. You can portray nazis like the evil spinless cowards they are in real life but it's important to make them look like shit too just in case a mass of fullblown retards tries to spin the narrative like with Starship Troopers or Star Wars with the Empire.
No.1813433
>>1811952Honestly as annoying as it is to be called a Fascist (especially when arguing that Starship Troopers' problem is it's too subtle in its satire of Fascism) I do feel a little bad his post got deleted. Important to be warned of the dangers of becoming a Fascist myself.
>>1811958See I wholly understand the point the guy was making about it being framed as propaganda from the Fascist government, rather than an "objective" lens, but my problem remains the same. Like, you literally see a news report where soldiers get slaughtered en masse by bugs, just saying "Well, it's propaganda" doesn't change the fact that unless we're using "propaganda" to mean that
everything is staged and the bugs
aren't exactly how they look through our glimpses of them in the film. I know people have shown pics of Nazi propaganda portraying Jews as monsters or ugly or rats or what have you, but the difference is I don't think even the Nazis did news reports of Wehrmacht troops being ripped apart by 8 foot tall rat-Jews. Like for all the Nazis racial pseudoscience and propaganda, I'm pretty certain most Germans didn't think the Jews were
literal rat people.
Now to the film's credit, there are quite a few parts where it can make you say "Hey, wait a second." But the thing is they're subtle enough that it's easy for a casual viewer to miss on the first watch. There's a character who says she signed up because she wants to be a mother and it's "so much easier to get a birthing license if you're a citizen." You've got the gag of a "murderer" being arrested, tried, and executed within the span of a day. Again, that's fucked up.
But again it goes back to what I was saying, where when there's a backdrop of existential war people are far more willing to tolerate shitty government. And then you've got to ask how people who enjoy Starship Troopers treat it. I'm sure there's some of its fans are just laughing the whole time watching this bumbling Fascist regime get tons of people killed, but how many people "ironically" enjoy it? How many people "ironically" drink the Fascist regime's Koolaid? Like I said, I've watched the movie a couple times with groups of people, and we're all drinking or smoking and playing along with the propaganda: "I'm doing my part!" "The only good bug is a dead bug!"
As I said before, just saying, "Well you don't get it. It's satire. The movie is literal propaganda, how do you not understand that?" Doesn't really work when the movie's so good at hooking you with catchy slogans and handsome people. Shit I'd say even the stuff hinting at how dystopian the society is (again, a trial and execution happening in a day) doesn't work because modern Nazis LOVE ironically playing up how evil they are. George Lincoln Rockwell was touring around the South in something he literally called "The Hate Bus" and propagandists like Stonetoss or MurdochMurdoch get a kick out of portraying themselves as plucky Homer Simpsons who just want to commit a genocide.
Again, if you haven't already, everyone here should watch "Look Who's Back" if they can. I'd say it totally deconstructs Starship Troopers because while they're both satire, "Look Who's Back" goes to show just how dangerous "funny Fascism" or "ironic Fascism" is. Seriously you've got all these seemingly normal Germans who get giddy when they see Hitler. As long as everyone's convinced "Oh it's just an actor" or "Oh it's just satire" they just play along with him… even when he's being 100% serious. He'll talk about immigration and his race politics to their very face, and quite a few people who are all buddy-buddy with fake Hitler pause and start to agree with him. It starts off innocently enough, like it's all one big joke, but then you've got German politicians admitting openly they'd support Hitler if they lived back in the 30s.
So yeah, we're all watching Starship Troopers and having a big laugh. "The only good bug is a dead bug!" Hey! It's satire! It's cool to be spouting Fascist propaganda because you're doing it ironically. It's all a big joke.
Until it stops being a joke. Until, after all the laughter and the clapping, someone in the audience says "Well y'know they had a point!"
No.1813448
>>1765114wolf of wall street is not sympathetic at all
maybe im not enough of an androphile to be particularly disarmed by dicaprio's looks, but his character is really an obvious piece of shit from the start all the way to the end, and it's not made ambiguous in the slightest
No.1813500
>>1813433Of course the funny thing is that the Starship Troopers movie wasn't even meant to be a Starship Troopers movie; it was originally called like "Bug Attack on Outpost Nine". The directors tried to pitch that idea to the execs but that failed, so they just slapped the "Starship Troopers" name on it for name recognition and the executives greenlit it.
No.1813525
>>1813511The Nazis being mystified as cold and evil hardasses is a Hollywood creation. Their own contemporaries viewed them as stupid clowns.
No.1836924
Aesthetics are everything. If you don't know this, you haven't learned anything from Infrared.
Read Hegel's derivation of essence and appearance.
No.1836926
>>1765114>moralising language tldr stop watching capeshit and read theory
No.1836927
>>1836924It sounds like you learned the wrong thing from Infrared. Stop consuming slop.
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