/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>1812140
Of course Katyn was done by Nazis, they just so happened to be dressed in red (picrel)

>>1813478
What a pathetic response. Does it pain you so much that people stopped believing Goebbels' lies?

>>1813478
Why do you say it like it's a bad thing? Stalin was allying the Soviet union with the revolutionary anarchist revolution in a popular front against the Polish reactionaries and capitalists.

>>1813485
There was no alliance, glowie

>>1813507
I was joking

>>1812140
>It's the same retard who was denying that Katyn was done by Nazis, most likely
I don't think it's hard to believe the communists would shoot a bunch of aristocratic Polish officers.

>>1813563
It's not hard to believe that Soviets have persecuted FORMER Polish nationals who became citizens of USSR after Poland ceased to exist. It is hard, however, to believe that Soviets have shot "Polish elite" when 1) Nazis did it, as per Nurnberg trials 2) Nazis did it, as per other mass murders of Polish elite by Germans in Poland 3) Polish elite has actually dismissed the attempts of Nazis to put the blame for Katyn on Soviets: (Remigiusz Bezhanek, who was in Nazi Katyn list, a corpse "exhumed" by Nazis no 01105, who in reality lived well past the war and in socialist Poland to the old age)

>He writes: “From the period of the German occupation, it may be worth recalling the following episode of my biography - perhaps the only one of its kind - which gives an idea of the methods of German propaganda in the Katyn case… For many years, I was worried about the question of how it happened that my name was on the list of those killed in Katyn… Finally, more than 20 years after the war, an activist of the agrarian party, vice-chairman of the Supreme Control Chamber Boleslav Galenza explained everything to me.

>So, during the war, when the graves in Katyn were discovered, newspapers published the names of the victims, 20-30 positions in the next issues of newspapers… Many people came to the offices of the PKK (Polish Red Cross) asking if it was possible to view the entire list, or find out if there was a specific person on the list. But the PKK offices did not have a complete list of victims, and the staff working there suggested – probably at the direction of the German authorities - “Tell us who you are talking about, and as soon as we receive the data, we will inform you.”

>In such a situation, some of the underground organizations recommended not to go to the PKK offices with such questions, because due to the large number of unidentified remains, the information reported to the PKK department about the stay of a particular person in the Soviet Union as a prisoner of war will be used by the Germans and in a few days the name of this person will appear in the list of victims”

>R. Bezhanyan further writes that B. Galenza told him about how in 1943 he and his colleague Dr. S.Shchetka decided to test this assumption. To do this, they went to the Radom branch of the PKK and reported there the name of Bezhanek, as a prisoner of war in the USSR. The result was not long in coming. Soon the name of R.Bezhanek appeared in the published lists of Katyn victims.

>Without a doubt, the Polish “underground organizations” had reason to recommend Poles not to go to the offices of the Polish Red Cross to clarify the fate of relatives. It is no coincidence that the Radom underground workers B.Galenza and S.Brush decided to arrange a “control purchase” for the Nazis with the name of R.Bezhanek, which the German forgers immediately fell for. However, the Memorials and supporters of the official version still insist that there is no reason to doubt the “objectivity” of the Nazi experts.

>>1813485
Anarcho-Stalinism ftw

>>1813868
Why did the Duma formally acknowledge the Katyn massacre as carried out by the USSR then? It was 70 years after it happened, they could have just said the Germans did it. I think it's cope to say otherwise. Also your boy Losurdo says the Soviets did it, he mainly seemed to think it was a terrible crime but part of war, at least partly motivated out of military contingency in an emergency situation.

The U.S. dropped the atom bomb on Hiroshima, which was worse than Katyn. These things happened: deal with it. There was a certain rationality to doing these things (albeit with appalling consequences). But I think part of the problem is thinking Stalin-era rationality = being a good person who does all the good things. Stop reading Grover Furr, he's a hack.

>>1813922
>Why did the Duma formally acknowledge the Katyn massacre as carried out by the USSR then?
this never happened
but let's pretend it did just for this argument: how is it relevant what the capitalist state ran by the elite who broke up the USSR and constantly slanders the USSR has to say about katyn?
the nuremberg trials say katyn was done by the germans, why do you insist on denying them with no evidence to back it up?

>>1813931
>this never happened
Ah the go to argument of grover furries
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2010/11/28/duma-blames-stalin-for-katyn-massacre-a3292

>>1813868
>Screengrab: Goring was hanged for Katyn.
That's not true. The Soviets dropped that charge during the tribunal and he was sentenced to death on other charges (and he wasn't hanged, he killed himself before his execution).

>>1813931
Do you actually, sincerely, believe that things stated at the nuremberg trials are an unimpeachable historical record? This seems too naive even for a pseudo-communist.

>>1813959
>That's not true. The Soviets dropped that charge during the tribunal

You are extremely mal-informed. Charge is still in the Nuremberg trials to this fucking day, and it wasn't dropped. In fact, the Stahmer's call for the charge to be dropped was IGNORED by the court, i.e. the completely opposite is true

>>1813922
>Why did the Duma formally acknowledge the Katyn massacre as carried out by the USSR then

That was thier personal opinion. There was no official recognition. Now they are rescinding that statement, so honestly, your opinion is laughable

>>1813965
The Nuremberg trials registered soviet accusations and the what the defense said but determined nothing anyway, it's another straight up lie.

>>1813981
>The Nuremberg trials registered soviet accusations

They called 3 witnesses from each side:
Defence (Nazis) side said that they saw nothing, were nowhere near the possible execution territory during the date of EITHER version, didn't hear anything, didn't know anythin
Soviet side: saw Polish POWs, testified about hearing gunshots, testified about hearing the planned executions, testified about how the whole area around Katyn was actually a tourist spot with people freely moving around there before the occupation, yadda yadda

As a result the court dismissed Stahmer's plea to strike down Katyn from the indictment, because it was quite clear that Nazis committed that crime.It's not a fucking rocket science - Katyn still remaining in the indictment means that Katyn was determined by the ICJ to be Nazis' doing

>>1813979
The Duma voted on it on the order of Putin and United Russia, they issued a declaration saying that it was a "crime by the Stalinist regime and the Soviet Union, a totalitarian state", pretty official if you want my opinion.

>>1813986
You're wrong + the ICJ had nothing to do with the trials lol

>>1813981
To be real, part of what's going on here is resisting Western bourgeois historians' using Katyn to equivocate between the USSR and Nazi Germany with the easiest possible argument: it didn't happen. But I don't even think the equivocating works – because the Nazi war crimes were way, way, way worse! Like Katyn is not even in the top 15 bad things the USSR did. This *plugs fingers in ears* la-la-la denialism just makes modern-day communists look like conspiracy cranks and ends up reinforcing the same equivocation those bourgeois historians make between them and Holocaust deniers.

>>1813986
>Katyn still remaining in the indictment means that Katyn was determined by the ICJ to be Nazis' doing
It never went to trial – they never proved it! No German was ever charged or convicted. (It's also possible the U.S. and U.K. didn't want to pursue the matter further either, perhaps saving the Soviet prosecutors some embarrassment for recklessly trying to pin the blame on the Germans, but the Soviets at the trial might not have actually known what the truth was themselves.) The Nazis were losing the war and dug up the bodies shot by the NKVD and used it as part of their propaganda offensive about why Bolshevism was LE BAD while they were doing the Holocaust. It was unfortunate but the Nazis lost the war anyways.

>>1814002
Tbh if you look at some of the officers killed at katyn they were mostly nationalists, monarchists, and other brands of reactionary.

It's hard for me to muster up much of a fuck either way. The Polish government was basically a fascist dictatorship at the time anyway, wasn't it? So who cares?

>>1813994
>they issued a declaration saying that it was a "crime by the Stalinist regime and the Soviet Union, a totalitarian state", pretty official if you want my opinion.

That was a personal opinion by a group of deputees. Why should I fucking mention that per law nobody but the court can decide if someone is guilty? Furthermore, voting happened on THE PRESIDENT RECEIVING THEIR OPINION ON KATYN. It wasn't "wooo we vote on admitting the guilt of Katyn", it was "we vote so that our opinion is heard by Putin"

>You're wrong + the ICJ had nothing to do with the trials lol

I am completely 100% right, I've read Katyn-relevant Nuremberg Trials papers, saw testimonies myself, and have done my research while you haven't + it's IMT, alright

Again, 3 witnesses from either side. Nazi witnesses, as I said, didn't actually belong in IMT because they didn't say anything about either version of the events.

Soviet witnesses. A Soviet mayor under occupation, who heard directly from German authorities and translator about how Nazis wanted to murder Polish POWs, as well as heard from Soviet citizens (who gave their signatures) that they saw POWs working on the road i.e. those Polish POWs weren't shot by Soviets; Markov from Germans' own commission on Katyn, who testified that the commission was done intentionally wrong on purpose so that Germans could shift the blame on Soviets; and I forgot who the third was

In any case, Soviet witnesses testified something meaningful and provable, while Nazi witnesses just deflected the blame by claiming that they didn't see anything, didn't know anything, and weren't in the vicinity of the murders at either possible time of murders ANYWAY.

Oh, and as a side note. Later on Ahrens dropped his ridiculously laughable story about the wolf unearthing bones anyway when Americans picked up the Katyn story back and changed his testimony.

>>1814002
>It never went to trial – they never proved it! No German was ever charged or convicted.

You are a fucking retard. Literally go and look up who's defender Stahmer was, and then look up on what counts Goring was sentenced, and note the remark about how his guilt was absolutely proven. Katyn WASN'T FUCKING STRUCK DOWN FROM THE INDICTMENT. IT'S IN NUREMBERG TRIALS, IT WAS FUCKING PROVEN THAT NAZIS DID IT

>>1814006
You should fucking care because Katyn nonsense is anticommunist myth equating communists to nazis. Any retard who continues to spout this nonsense deserves spit in their face

>>1814015
It's either tard on tard violence with nazis executing other fascist or soviets executing a bunch of reactionaries. Clearly given the state of Poland today katyn should have been bigger whoever was responsible.

>>1814002
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/10-01-46.asp

Read this, you fucking retard:

>The Tribunal will now state those reasons in declaring its Judgment on such guilt or innocence.

>GOERING

>Goering is indicted on all four Counts. The evidence shows that after Hitler he was the most prominent man in the Nazi regime. He was Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, and had tremendous influence with Hitler, at least until 1943, when their relationship deteriorated, ending in his arrest in 1945. He testified that Hitler kept him informed of all important military and political problems.

"indicted on all four counts"

>Conclusion

>The Tribunal finds the Defendant Goering guilty on all four Counts of the Indictment.
<guilty on all four Counts of the Indictment
<guilty
<on all four Counts
<of the Indictment

Katyn, as I keep repeating, wasn't struck down from the indictment. Suck my dick, Katyn denialist.

>>1814018
People who equate nazis to communists deserve to be spit in their faces. People who try whitewash nazis deserve to be spit in their faces. What's so fucking hard to understand?

So did the soviets purge polish people back then or is that a hoax? Would need some sources if that isn't true.

>>1814134
The Communist government liquidated the reactionary regime. The people were liberated, not purged.

>>1814146
But I keep hearing the communists killed them

>>1814150
They killed bourgeois, bureaucrats, and officers of the reactionary regime, not the people.

Replying to this thread is a mistake. This question is being asked in bad faith, and replies are being made in bad faith. Frankly y'all are too fucking autistic to recognize when someone isn't looking to honestly investigate something for themselves.

>>1814011
>have done my research
like a facebook soccer mom investigating vaccines lmao, you keep lying, making errors and mixing up facts and institutions, you're simply not credible

>>1812706
LMAO did you read the links you posted, or just the google translation of the title? Those scans are from a book documenting the terror-acts of KULAKS between 1925 and 1928, you fucking twit.

>>1814217
>Torshitter providing no argument
LMAO.

>>1813994
The Duma could vote such a thing over and over again, it doesn't mean a thing, because the Duma is not a Judicial body, nor was their decision based on a investigative trial. The virulently anti-communist government of Russia post 1991 literally had a "trial of the Soviet communist party" and Katyn was a part of that trial, and all accusations were disproven.

Fuck off back to /pol/and you miserable wanker.

>>1814382
>make flawed argument
>have it pointed out
<erm, you have no argument!
lol

>>1814022
I'm sorry, but I don't see any references to Katyn anywhere in that judgement. In fact, it specifically states that the judgement is based on "his own admissions" being "more than sufficiently wide to be conclusive of his guilt" on those four counts. Did Goering admit to doing the Katyn? I don't think so.

>>1814382
>The virulently anti-communist government of Russia post 1991
I'm going to stop you there – the Soviet government also recognized they did it in 1990 during a meeting with Wojciech Jaruzelski.

>>1814383
>have it pointed out
I'm not even the same anon you nimrod. At no point have you pointed out anything flawed, you're deliberately dismissing and ignoring physical and judicial evidence and going for PR-optics.
>G-grover Furr is a hack
Every fag that claims this has never debunked any of his arguments or disproven his sources, and instead deflected and brought up nonsequiturs.

Go back to reddit.

>>1814386
>the Soviet government also recognized they did it in 1990 during a meeting with Wojciech Jaruzelski.
Yes I am quite aware and remember, as that was in April of 1990 specifically by Gorbachev as part of his cuckoldry, the meaningless words of a traitor. More importantly Gorbachev's claim was NOT the claim of the Soviet Government, and he had no authority to make such a claim, President or not, and was harshly told so by his colleagues; that until a Trial was held this claim of guilt was invalid, and prior to a trial, an investigation had to be done. So said investigation was launched in September of 1990 which culminated in the trial in 1991 that I speak of, and in said trial the evidence pointed to the Germans. All supposed proof of Soviet guilt in Document No.1 were proven as forgeries. This is in SPITE of immense pressure on the Federal Prosecutors to confirm Gorbachev's claim.

https://katynmassakern.blogspot.com/2010/07/katyn-49-signs-of-falsification-of.html

Read Muhin.

>>1814389
A funny thing about Furr is that he's kind of a semi-Maoist leftcom and doesn't seem to think highly of Stalin as a communist that much and compared him to a bourgeois social democrat uninterested in overthrowing capitalism. He's just really invested in proving Beria was innocent and that Stalin was honest! Well, okay. I don't think he's morally equivalent to a Holocaust denier but I can't take seriously someone who says the German communists deported to Germany (where they died) during the MR pact isn't true because some of them had been expelled from the Communist Party so therefore they weren't communists herp derp. There's some… forgive the expression… tortured, motivated reasoning going on there. There's also just better defenses of Stalin than that – you can read J. Arch Getty or Losurdo.

>>1814397
Oh c'mon don't be silly
Didn't happen but it should have
we'll do it again

>>1814397
>listing all these out of context strawmen.
I am well aware of Losurdo and J. Arch Getty. many of the pdfs and effort-posts on leftypol with those sources were uploaded by me at some point, primarily during the 8ch days.

>>1814400
So do you have any theories on why Losurdo believes the Soviets did Katyn? You can say he's just wrong, reading forgeries, etc. but he suggests one a reason for the Soviet massacre of Polish officers was because those officers were anti-Semites. (I doubt contemporary Polish historiography about Katyn brings that up.) But he didn't think it involved Stalin's personality or even the regime led by him as much as the situation.

>>1814405
>do you have any theories on why Losurdo believes the Soviets did Katyn
simple, pic rel.

>>1814407
Good quote.

>>1814405
>>1814407
Honestly as an old-fag who wrote an effortpost on Katyn a while back I need to redo said effort-post. I lost my original document so I'll need to start from scratch, however I suggest you read the following links and their sources. The fact of the matter is that while I may defend Grover Furr's claim on Katyn, I did so after carefully reading and studying the subject to confirm his claims. The German story does not add up and the 1990s claim about Soviet guilt is based on false documents and ideological arguments. A massacre of such a scale could not simply be covered up, the German's had tried with many of their smaller-scale Einsatzgruppen operations and failed, so why and how would the USSR suddenly be capable of magicking away all the proof? German ammunition, impossibilities in terms of the time it would take, hell even basic body decomposition and the propagandist nature of Germany's claim makes Soviet guilt improbable AT BEST, and primarily those ideologically motivated to attack the USSR and its legacy push this story of the NKVD doing it.

https://espressostalinist.com/2015/03/01/the-truth-about-katyn/

http://www.idcommunism.com/2016/04/the-real-story-of-katyn-massacre.html

>>1814415
>propagandist nature of Germany's claim … and primarily those ideologically motivated to attack the USSR and its legacy push this story of the NKVD doing it.
That's true. I understand that. Like the whole issue is tricky for communists for that reason (also that what happened was bad). But there being motivated reasoning by the Nazis during the war and anti-communist propagandists in the years following to push this really hard is not a great argument for why it didn't happen. People really just don't like to believe atrocities committed by their own side. But war is full atrocities. The Soviet army committed atrocities during World War II. But there's also little question that the Nazis committed far more and worse atrocities than the communists ever did.

>>1812438
>The entirety of the East German officer corps until the 70s was ex-Wehrmacht and like half of the functionaries of the SED
Bullshit

>>1814436
>The Soviet army committed atrocities
Sure, but not on a mass-scale, or by government decree or approval. Despite ideological enemity, the Polish officers were more useful alive to the USSR, than dead, and while yes, the Nazi and anti-communist push for the narrative on its own is not a great argument, it is very much a good reason to question their narrative and check its validity, and certainly provides motive to falsify evidence and manufacture a narrative, as has been done before about the USSR with things like the Holodomor meme (pdf rel)

Why do these threads always devolve into Katyn discussions? Who gives a fuck about retarded dead Polish officers? The only purges any communist should give a shit about are the Moscow Trials. Im not interested in getting into a debate about who was right or wrong there but im pointing out that if you care about anything other than those you have the wrong priorities on talking about purges under Stalin.

>>1811962
AMAB

>>1814386
>I'm sorry, but I don't see any references to Katyn anywhere in that judgement

It literally talks about the indictment, which contains Katyn. Even if you go the retard road and start claiming that Goring wasn't responsible, here's the fucking fact that rulings and proceedings of the Nuremberg Trials were carried against ORGANIZATIONS with one PRIMARY defendant defending in each case. Even in this case, Katyn is still Nazis' doing, because it's in THERE

>Did Goering admit to doing the Katyn? I don't think so.

Whose defendant was Stahmer, you idiot? How do you fucking explain why Goering's defendant was the defendant at Katyn case?