No.1811962
The Trotsky-Bukharin terror network recruited from all walks of life, this is well known. Acting like someone’s background discounts treason is textbook idpol
No.1811965
>>1811962Even if that were true(reeks of how Israel considers almost all Palestinians to be valid targets) all you need to do is kill top organizing members of an organization to disrupt it. Massacring everyone wholesale, and treating randos and political elites to similar punishments is retarded.
No.1811966
What book?
No.1811968
Communist terror seems to always fall on the common people more, despite what communists may claim. Just like wars, or other non-socialist revolutions. It falls on many commanders of the revolution eventually as well but the destructive outburst will naturally hurt those most vulnerable.
No.1811969
who is the author? do they have actual evidence that these were "common people" and not part of some plot as
>>1811962 suggests?
between the words of some academic and the NKVD, trust the NKVD
No.1811993
>>1811959Because the people who enact counterrevolution and terror are relatively normal, and that's who you catch on the spot. Yeah, the brains behind ISIS are rich Arabs, Mossad and CIA, but the actual members and suicide bombers are just sad, poor people. The counterrevolutionary forces in the USSR were no different.
No.1812013
>>1811997If anything the purges weren’t nearly extensive enough, as Khrushchev and other Trotskyites managed to slip through the cracks by taking advantage of Stalin’s trusting nature and willingness to look past faults. This thankfully is a mistake that has not been repeated with other communist states, in China for example the “purge” is a perpetual process where counterrevolutionaries are liquidated as they arise because, and this may come as a surprise to leftcoms, class struggle is an ongoing process and not a one and done deal
No.1812019
>>1811969Source is James Harris' The Great Fear. The author did extensive archival research.
No.1812023
>>1811997>With the vast majority of of purged coming from the Communist Party ranksThat was apparently pre 1991 view of the purge. Ever since the opening of the Soviet archives to scholars, the consensus has been shifting.
No.1812025
>>1812019“Archival research” (read: took the forgeries done by Yakovlev and his cronies at the behest of Gorbachev at face value)
No.1812028
>>1812013>Stalin’s trusting nature and willingness to look past faults.Fucking lol
Internet defenses of Stalin's purges and any opinion to the contrary as being anticommunist is funny to me now because even Mao criticized Stalin after he died for physically destroying his opponents. Very obvious that people are deriving views entirely from reading a bunch of tweets and never moving beyond that, and taking a fundamentally anti-critical view of history and politics.
My thoughts about Stalin? There's always room for improvement. That's what makes life worth living <3
No.1812033
Dont you get it bro ecerybody is a secret trotskofascistoanarchist and murder is the only solution bro, people wabting freedom is actually fascism bro we beed to instill fear bro, you might not like it and honestly nobody does but this is actually socialism bro you have to fight to enable my fantasies of controlling people bro you have to love it bro this is actually socialism bro
No.1812036
>>1812033You’re in another thread trying to hype up another Sinophobic “virus” scare, don’t pretend like you give a shit about communism
>>1812028How did you come away from Mao arguing that Stalin failed because he saw counterrevolution as a mere problem of people rather than a systemic ideological issue that must be confronted on all levels of society as “Mao thought Stalin was too mean”? Please tell me your thought process
No.1812037
idk man i think this website existed for long enough so that history of the past century was very analyzed and debated. I would suggest you going to leftypol archive, to see the old Stalin arguments. People get tired and bored of teaching misinformed people. Or idk, search your own informations. History shows that we don't, and probably should not, learn from history.
No.1812039
>>1812036>Sinophobic “virus” scareLiterally NOBODY who cares about H5N1 is talking about china it is literally an international issue i have no idea how wanting to remain alive during another manmade disaster is sinophobic. If you know why its sinophobic please explain because im interested.
No.1812040
>it's another factionalist thread about forgotten autistic beefs from 1930 no one cares about
No.1812041
>>1812040"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
No.1812042
>>1812040Look out guys, the video gamer believes that good and evil and the constant struggle between them is just “autism”
No.1812045
>>1812039Unlike you I’m old enough to remember the last few “bird flu” scares and each time it was always accompanied by the idea that tainted Chinese birds were responsible because China is just a filthy country. But go on, tell us how this time it’ll totally be real
No.1812046
>>1812042Yeah, the struggles of the proles against stalin are serious things in which many have given their lives to uphold the true face of the revolution in the face of revisionism. I dont understand how those brave people are autists.
No.1812047
>>1812045>tell us how this time it’ll totally be realIdk bro it kinda is actually real as we speak and i dont see why you think anyone other than facebook boomers will blame china, eouldnt they blame india or pakistan instead, arent those countries stereotyped as more filthy?
No.1812049
>>1812046Oh this should be good, please explain how Stalin was revisionist and what he did that contradicted Marx and Lenin so horribly that it justified Nazi collaboration
No.1812061
>>1812049Please explain how the left opposition collaborated with nazis.
No.1812074
Wtf is this thread
No.1812075
>>1812019there have been plenty of fakes coming out of the "archives" so take that shit with a grain of salt
>>1812056my man Joseph here freeballing and not even using socks
No.1812106
stalin was a murderous maniac but also an honest revolutionary his reign of terror affected virtually everyone once he was gone the iron grip loosened and the traitorous elements in the nomenclature could draw a breath of relief, freed from any supervision it didn't take long before they reintroduced capitalism and degraded russia to a peripheral supplier of crude oil and unprocessed natural resources to the world markets
No.1812111
>>1811981This. The entire socialist world has suffered from a nonstop medieval style siege. Every tactic of escalation (sanction, coup, embargo, blockade, industrial sabotage, agricultural sabotage, misinfo campaigns, organized crime, kidnapping, assassination, torture, and full scale invasion) is used on them without mercy and they are expected to act like St. Bartholomew in response, gladly handing over their own flayed skin to their oppressors.
No.1812113
>>1812056reminds me of thomas sankara's bicycle and guitar
No.1812123
>>1812106>traitorous elements in the nomenclatureThe problem is that you were suspect if you were too loyal to Stalin. Not only by possible pretense, but due to the fact you might've been motivated by something other than self-preservation and that could potentially become an issue if who you were loyal to ever seemed to fail to live up to what you believed in. The traitors took over because those were the people who survived. There's evidence that indicates officers like Tukhachevsky was actually more loyal to Stalin than many of the mid-ranking officers who survived the purges like Zhukov or Vasilevsky. I think Stalin and the USSR can be put into a proper historical context though without denying anything. Like… Stalin shook hands with Hitler. Or his ambassador did. Whatever. That's just diplomacy. Deal.
No.1812125
>>1812123Are you serious? Tukhachevsky? The Trotskyite general who got so mad that Stalin refused to make the USSR a neopagan ethnostate built on human sacrifice that he tried to collaborate with the Nazis? This is the guy you want to claim was “too loyal to Stalin”? He was a psychopath from the beginning and only fought in the revolution because he wanted Russia to be some Volkish colony, I can think of few people less loyal to communism
No.1812127
>reading about russian revolution
>look up all the major bolshevik figures
>90% of them died in 1937-8
damn, they must have been playing the long game, fighting for communism just to undermine it 20 years later for no reason
No.1812129
>>1811959Except there's no archival evidence that 700k people have died in purges. There are proven fakes that say so, and then there are attempts to "piece back together" lists of people who supposedly have died in the purges, which simply contain any person who got in prison during that period
No.1812130
>>1811965Civilians had no idea that purges happened at all in 1930s, they only learned about them in 1980-90s. Meaning that purges against civilians simply didn't happen
Again, consensus between a lie and a truth - between Westoid historians - is a lie. There's no actual archival evidence that ANY people have died in purges
No.1812132
>>1812127>90% of them died in 1937-8Anon, wtf
No.1812133
>>1812123>officers like Tukhachevsky was actually more loyal to Stalin than many of the mid-ranking officers who survived the purges like Zhukov or VasilevskyTukhachevsky has literally conspired with Nazi Germany against USSR. Ignoring evidence will not make it go away
No.1812136
>>1811968Communist terror is largely a made-up nonsense coming from people who fight against communists. Re: White Guard crap, or Ukronazi rewriting of history, including inventing Holodomor out of thin air despite the fact that to this fucking day they still haven't found any corpses related to a supposed famine-genocide that has killed every fourth person in Ukraine
No.1812138
>>1812125<Tukhachevsky>muh good tsarist generalsYea that cunt clearly should have been shot in 1917, spare me the 20 years of life an career he was gifted.
No.1812140
>>1812139It's the same retard who was denying that Katyn was done by Nazis, most likely
No.1812145
>>1812129Honestly if the CPSU actually did kill 700k traitors Khrushchev would have never gathered the power base needed for his assassination of Stalin and subsequent coup
No.1812146
>>1811959>What the fuck is the point of witch hunting common people?en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD_Order_No._00447
No.1812148
>>1812127Most of the “old Bolsheviks” that the west loves to rant and rave about were literally-who pencil pushers and careerists who saw the nascent USSR as ripe for nestling into a comfortable bureaucratic position. Unfortunately for them under communism the politicians are actually held accountable to the people who they serve
No.1812149
>>1812145There weren't 700k traitors. What Stalin has failed to do was eliminating nationalists from the republics. Nationalists managed to hide inside local communist parties, and on top of that, Khruschev has pardoned all the nationalists with a government decree, despite the fact that they were imprisoned in accordance with law
No.1812150
>>1812145>>1812149That's why I think that Mao was absolutely correct in his Cultural Revolution. People dragging "intellectuals", nationalist-minded party members and other retards and putting dunce hats onto their heads was an utterly correct move
No.1812151
>>1812148what good did it do? khrushchev came to power anyway
No.1812152
>>1812150I always imagine it'd be a good counter to gentrification.
No.1812153
>>1812150What I wouldn’t give to see Khrushchev’s head on a pike paraded around Red Square after a prolonged public struggle session where he’s stripped naked and put in a stockade until he fully confesses. But there’s little point in dwelling on what could have been, as Marxist Leninists our job is to learn from the past to forge a better present that will bring forth the future, and the modern multipolar bloc is doing that pretty well. Xi especially seems to have taken the lessons of the past to heart and the west despises him for it
No.1812155
>>1812151As already stated, that’s because Stalin made the mistake of seeing purging as a one time thing rather than a continuous process. Had they been allowed to continue Khrushchev would have faced a firing squad guaranteed
No.1812195
>>1811981>why be paranoid<takes histories about the USSR at face valueYou probably take Simon Sebag Montefiore seriously
No.1812197
>>1812191>doing the more revolutionary thingStalin going out for cigarettes and never coming back would have been the more revolutionary move? You must have given your own father too much credit.
Positions of power need to be transferred in an organized fashion.
No.1812218
>>1812191I’m sorry that listing what actually historically happened is beyond your apparent suspension of disbelief. I suppose it’s much more sensible to believe the USSR was a free love utopia that was ruined by Stalin and his evil tankies, right?
No.1812239
>>1812197Ah, like the transition after Stalin died, I see.
>>1812218That would be easier to believe, or at the least the possibility of a transition to that, if you also believe the 1936 constitution (a genuinely amazing document drafted and most likely composed by Bukharin, as I'm sure you know) was actually implemented. It was a huge ask, though, I understand.
No.1812335
>>1812191>Stalinists talking about how everyone who got it on the chin were bureaucrats while noting it was done "in accordance with the law" is funny.Khruschev blatantly pardoned all kinds of nationalists and collaborators, he even fucking returned Nazis jailed for life in USSR to WEST Germany. What do you fucking mean by "stalinists look funny"? There was even a protest by law enforcement against Khruschev, ffs
No.1812422
>>1811962why tf would trotsky and bukharin of all people work together
No.1812498
smh why didn't stalin just kill everybody? like he famously and definitely 100% for real said, "killing solves all problems. no man, no problem."
No.1812502
Keeping the centralized state in power of course, decentralized terror is much more effective at actually driving out the counter-revolutionary scum, as evidenced by the GPCR and the Spanish Revolution.
Power vs Violence, the latter being a noble purifying force while the former is exercised through despotic bureaucracy
No.1812507
>>1811959random highlighted quote from a cropped paragraph of an unsourced book or article
random highlighted quote from a cropped paragraph of an unsourced book or article
random highlighted quote from a cropped paragraph of an unsourced book or article
random highlighted quote from a cropped paragraph of an unsourced book or article
No.1812579
>>1811959>the vast majority of people who diedthe source you are quoting doesn't say these people died it says "victims"
purge means kicked out of the party for breaking the rules it doesn't mean executed
if the party votes on a position and it gets consensus approval then all members of the party adopt that position. this is the core of democratic centralism
you dont get to constantly bring it up and whine at every single meeting after you get btfo in a democratic vote, and if you do you are wasting everyones time and deserve to get kicked out
"power concentrated in Stalin" directly contradicts more credible sources
No.1812657
>>1812579vast of executed weren't party members, so it's more likely terror, they are not present in hoi 4 and the purge events look more like offices cleansing than killing former kulaks who are not happy with stalin
No.1812679
>>1812130What the fuck are you talking about, the purges were extensively discussed in Khuruschevian era, not to mention people noticed if certain politicians "dissappeared". (this is not even mentioning the purges of artists, actors, various professors and other professionals etc.)
No.1812682
>>1812133>Falling for a 80 year old Nazi shitpostoh dear
No.1812690
>>1812239>Ah, like the transition after Stalin died, I see.<Stalin going out for cigarettes and never coming back would have been the more revolutionary move?Couldn't answer that anons question and had to move the goal post.
>That would be easier to believe, or at the least the possibility of a transition to thatWait your rants about Stalinists and tankies are because you believe your utopian commune was ruined by Stalin and "authoritarianism"?
No.1812692
>>1812682>Nazis admitted that they were conspiring with Soviet generals to overthrow StalinYikes
>>1812679Oh yes, Khruschev has declared that the entire party was persecuted and repressed by Stalin. The numbers of repressed as presented by Khruschev matches the size of CPSU at the time
No.1812694
>>1811959>>1811962Trotsky was the greatest spymaster alive. From a shitty fuck off hut on an island in Turkey, with absolutely no funds, he ran the most covert, most extensive and most effective spy network the world had ever seen and never has seen since! Truly an impressive feat, and not a schizoid paranoid induced fabricated story to justify the violent consolidation of power by a section of the political ruling class.
No.1812696
>>1812438Riiiiight. Khruschev's thaw, accompanied by: letting pardoning people repressed by Stalin; Khruschev cucking out to USA on Cuba, in line with visits to USA; Khruschev letting Hungarian nationalism ferment until a fucking rebellion happened; doing a 180 on Yugoslavia, which aided Tito in helping nationalists in Hungary to rebel; cucking out ot West Germany by giving them Nazis; letting banderites and various Soviet nationalists out of prisons, which has led to USSR's dissolution eventually; Khruschev purging Stalin's CPSU immediately after the Stalin's death, replacing leading cadres with un-repressed nationalists ,even; decentralization of the economy, leading to plans failing, and massive wastes of Soviet wealth, as well as huge corruption sprouting everywhere; fights against Soviet science, wholesale replacement of Soviet science with Westoid academics, which has led to de-Lysenkoisation and VIRGIN LANDS CAMPAIGN; money reform, which was caused by FAILED SOVIET PROJECTS SUCH AS VIRGIN LANDS CAMPAIGN and which saw USSR reneging on paying back bonds by it's citizens who were investing in Soviet economy for the VIRGIN LANDS CAMPAIGN; all the fucking projects of Stalin's era - transformation of nature in Russia's south, channels to connect river networks, far east railways, great channel to connect caspian sea to siberian rivers - all of this was abandoned because un-repressed scientists and nationalists fought tooth and nail against Lysenko and other Soviet leaders
Fuck you. You have no fucking idea what kind of piece of shit you are defending here
No.1812700
>>1812695Order 00447 is fake. Find some proofs on the ground that it actually happened
Oh yes, the order about RE-REPRESSING kulaks EXTRAJUDICIOUSLY (BUT LEAVING BEHIND A PAPER TRAIL), kulaks who RAN AWAY FROM SIBERIA IN THE MILLIONS so that it DISTURBED SOVIET INDUSTRIES is so, so believable.
A SECRET ORDER TO KIDNAP PEOPLE - meaning that a policeman HAD NO FUCKING WAY TO SHOW PEOPLE WHOM THEY ARE KIDNAPPING ANY LEGAL BASIS FOR THEIR DETAINMENT; A SECRET ORDER printed on many different typewriters despite the fact the source of that order was singular and was printed all in the same day (as per dating on those documents); a SECRET FUCKING ORDER that saw EXTRAJUDICIAL TROIKAS, consisting of NKVD, PARTY HEADS (WHY) and PROSECUTOR, despite there being NO FUCKING EVIDENCE SUCH TROIKAS EXISTED ANYWHERE AT ANY TIME IN USSR.
Why are you such a fucking retard that you believe this nonsense?
No.1812701
if stalin killed even half of what reactionaries claim he did the world wouldn't be as fucked up as is it today
No.1812705
>>1812700So, there's a comparable operation in size - Chechen deportation.
There's a nonsecret order to carry it out:
https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D0%92%D0%A1_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0_%D0%BE%D1%82_7.03.1944_%D0%BE_%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%98%D0%BD%D0%B3%D1%83%D1%88%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%90%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0_%D0%B8_%D0%BE%D0%B1_%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC_%D1%83%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5_%D0%B5%D0%B5_%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B8And then there's a secret NKVD order about how to carry it out (provide workforce, provide supplies, provide trains, provide territory, provide free loans, replace lost property and farm animals, yadda yadda):
http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/PostanovGKO/194401/gko_5073.htmlAgain, HOW would kulaks be apprehended, even, by the authorities, if there was no official decree? Supposed kulak victims weren't even charged with anything, fake order literally says that they must be re-repressed becuase they infiltrated villages, lmao
You know, WHY order 00447 was created in the way it was created? Because anticommunists needed to charge USSR and communists with some huge Nazi-level crime, but there was no such crime found anywhere. So, they had to create a secret order document that would look like an admission of Nazi-level repressions
No.1812707
>>1812706fuck off, you have a whole bunch of points to disprove before you are allowed to post any links with your opinion
No.1812709
>>1812707cope harder
there were repressions, there would be more
stalin did nothing wrong
revolution is the most authoritharian thing there is
No.1812710
>>1812709>still doesn't address the points madeIt means that you agree that 00447 is fake, and thus that no anti-kulak operation with 700k dead ever happened
No.1812713
>>1812706>>1812700Oh lmao
1st pic says that kulaks were resettled to Siberia with most of their property, even. In 95 cases out of 100, state was holding back the people from murdering kulaks outright
2nd pic. In 1931, a policy was made that kulaks were reinstated in their rights after a 5 year period if they didn't break any laws
Why the fuck would NKVD re-repress 700k former kulaks to death after they were officially reinstated in their rights? Do fucking explain this to me. You have no fucking brains if you believe that order 00447 is real
No.1812714
>>1812710but what's your point if it did or not if you are okay with it? (if you agree with communists punishing their enemies regardless of statistics)
No.1812715
>>1812714It seems like the projection of "it didn't happen, it should have, and it will happen again" onto communists has become the the last resort for retarded anticommunists
No.1812716
>>1812694>to justify the violent consolidation of power by a section of the political ruling class.By 1927 the Stalinists had consolidated power publicly and theoretically
It was under these conditions that the trots, left and right oppositions moved into terrorism. IE they could not win the debate on any of their policies in a public debate
The 1933 report on the 5 year plan was known as the "Conquest of Victors" for what had been achieved in the first year 5 plan. The (Trotsky adovcated stopping collectivisation and slowing the first five year plan).
Why would Stalin, by 1936, need to shoot a load of discredited bastards that noone liked (except for middle class glasses wearers) and had no power, were they not actually guilty of the crimes the government accused them of?
Could it be, that the terrorist bloc Trotsky denied his enitre lifetime, actually existed and would be discovered by Arch Getty in the 1980s when the Trotsky Harvard archive was opened to trued liberal professors ?
No.1812718
>>1812715by stating that you are way too obsessed with casualties you mean would better not have revolution at all
No.1813484
>>1813478What a pathetic response. Does it pain you so much that people stopped believing Goebbels' lies?
No.1813868
>>1813563It's not hard to believe that Soviets have persecuted FORMER Polish nationals who became citizens of USSR after Poland ceased to exist. It is hard, however, to believe that Soviets have shot "Polish elite" when 1) Nazis did it, as per Nurnberg trials 2) Nazis did it, as per other mass murders of Polish elite by Germans in Poland 3) Polish elite has actually dismissed the attempts of Nazis to put the blame for Katyn on Soviets: (Remigiusz Bezhanek, who was in Nazi Katyn list, a corpse "exhumed" by Nazis no 01105, who in reality lived well past the war and in socialist Poland to the old age)
>He writes: “From the period of the German occupation, it may be worth recalling the following episode of my biography - perhaps the only one of its kind - which gives an idea of the methods of German propaganda in the Katyn case… For many years, I was worried about the question of how it happened that my name was on the list of those killed in Katyn… Finally, more than 20 years after the war, an activist of the agrarian party, vice-chairman of the Supreme Control Chamber Boleslav Galenza explained everything to me.
>So, during the war, when the graves in Katyn were discovered, newspapers published the names of the victims, 20-30 positions in the next issues of newspapers… Many people came to the offices of the PKK (Polish Red Cross) asking if it was possible to view the entire list, or find out if there was a specific person on the list. But the PKK offices did not have a complete list of victims, and the staff working there suggested – probably at the direction of the German authorities - “Tell us who you are talking about, and as soon as we receive the data, we will inform you.”
>In such a situation, some of the underground organizations recommended not to go to the PKK offices with such questions, because due to the large number of unidentified remains, the information reported to the PKK department about the stay of a particular person in the Soviet Union as a prisoner of war will be used by the Germans and in a few days the name of this person will appear in the list of victims”
>R. Bezhanyan further writes that B. Galenza told him about how in 1943 he and his colleague Dr. S.Shchetka decided to test this assumption. To do this, they went to the Radom branch of the PKK and reported there the name of Bezhanek, as a prisoner of war in the USSR. The result was not long in coming. Soon the name of R.Bezhanek appeared in the published lists of Katyn victims.
>Without a doubt, the Polish “underground organizations” had reason to recommend Poles not to go to the offices of the Polish Red Cross to clarify the fate of relatives. It is no coincidence that the Radom underground workers B.Galenza and S.Brush decided to arrange a “control purchase” for the Nazis with the name of R.Bezhanek, which the German forgers immediately fell for. However, the Memorials and supporters of the official version still insist that there is no reason to doubt the “objectivity” of the Nazi experts. No.1813922
>>1813868Why did the Duma formally acknowledge the Katyn massacre as carried out by the USSR then? It was 70 years after it happened, they could have just said the Germans did it. I think it's cope to say otherwise. Also your boy Losurdo says the Soviets did it, he mainly seemed to think it was a terrible crime but part of war, at least partly motivated out of military contingency in an emergency situation.
The U.S. dropped the atom bomb on Hiroshima, which was worse than Katyn. These things happened: deal with it. There was a certain rationality to doing these things (albeit with appalling consequences). But I think part of the problem is thinking Stalin-era rationality = being a good person who does all the good things. Stop reading Grover Furr, he's a hack.
No.1813931
>>1813922>Why did the Duma formally acknowledge the Katyn massacre as carried out by the USSR then?this never happened
but let's pretend it did just for this argument: how is it relevant what the capitalist state ran by the elite who broke up the USSR and constantly slanders the USSR has to say about katyn?
the nuremberg trials say katyn was done by the germans, why do you insist on denying them with no evidence to back it up?
No.1813959
>>1813868>Screengrab: Goring was hanged for Katyn.That's not true. The Soviets dropped that charge during the tribunal and he was sentenced to death on other charges (and he wasn't hanged, he killed himself before his execution).
No.1813965
>>1813931Do you actually, sincerely, believe that things stated at the nuremberg trials are an unimpeachable historical record? This seems too naive even for a pseudo-communist.
No.1813972
>>1813959>That's not true. The Soviets dropped that charge during the tribunalYou are extremely mal-informed. Charge is still in the Nuremberg trials to this fucking day, and it wasn't dropped. In fact, the Stahmer's call for the charge to be dropped was IGNORED by the court, i.e. the completely opposite is true
No.1813979
>>1813922>Why did the Duma formally acknowledge the Katyn massacre as carried out by the USSR thenThat was thier personal opinion. There was no official recognition. Now they are rescinding that statement, so honestly, your opinion is laughable
No.1813981
>>1813965The Nuremberg trials registered soviet accusations and the what the defense said but determined nothing anyway, it's another straight up lie.
No.1813986
>>1813981>The Nuremberg trials registered soviet accusationsThey called 3 witnesses from each side:
Defence (Nazis) side said that they saw nothing, were nowhere near the possible execution territory during the date of EITHER version, didn't hear anything, didn't know anythin
Soviet side: saw Polish POWs, testified about hearing gunshots, testified about hearing the planned executions, testified about how the whole area around Katyn was actually a tourist spot with people freely moving around there before the occupation, yadda yadda
As a result the court dismissed Stahmer's plea to strike down Katyn from the indictment, because it was quite clear that Nazis committed that crime.It's not a fucking rocket science - Katyn still remaining in the indictment means that Katyn was determined by the ICJ to be Nazis' doing
No.1813994
>>1813979The Duma voted on it on the order of Putin and United Russia, they issued a declaration saying that it was a "crime by the Stalinist regime and the Soviet Union, a totalitarian state", pretty official if you want my opinion.
>>1813986You're wrong + the ICJ had nothing to do with the trials lol
No.1814002
>>1813981To be real, part of what's going on here is resisting Western bourgeois historians' using Katyn to equivocate between the USSR and Nazi Germany with the easiest possible argument: it didn't happen. But I don't even think the equivocating works – because the Nazi war crimes were way, way, way worse! Like Katyn is not even in the top 15 bad things the USSR did. This *plugs fingers in ears* la-la-la denialism just makes modern-day communists look like conspiracy cranks and ends up reinforcing the same equivocation those bourgeois historians make between them and Holocaust deniers.
>>1813986>Katyn still remaining in the indictment means that Katyn was determined by the ICJ to be Nazis' doingIt never went to trial – they never proved it! No German was ever charged or convicted. (It's also possible the U.S. and U.K. didn't want to pursue the matter further either, perhaps saving the Soviet prosecutors some embarrassment for recklessly trying to pin the blame on the Germans, but the Soviets at the trial might not have actually known what the truth was themselves.) The Nazis were losing the war and dug up the bodies shot by the NKVD and used it as part of their propaganda offensive about why Bolshevism was LE BAD while they were doing the Holocaust. It was unfortunate but the Nazis lost the war anyways.
No.1814006
>>1814002Tbh if you look at some of the officers killed at katyn they were mostly nationalists, monarchists, and other brands of reactionary.
It's hard for me to muster up much of a fuck either way. The Polish government was basically a fascist dictatorship at the time anyway, wasn't it? So who cares?
No.1814011
>>1813994>they issued a declaration saying that it was a "crime by the Stalinist regime and the Soviet Union, a totalitarian state", pretty official if you want my opinion.That was a personal opinion by a group of deputees. Why should I fucking mention that per law nobody but the court can decide if someone is guilty? Furthermore, voting happened on THE PRESIDENT RECEIVING THEIR OPINION ON KATYN. It wasn't "wooo we vote on admitting the guilt of Katyn", it was "we vote so that our opinion is heard by Putin"
>You're wrong + the ICJ had nothing to do with the trials lolI am completely 100% right, I've read Katyn-relevant Nuremberg Trials papers, saw testimonies myself, and have done my research while you haven't + it's IMT, alright
Again, 3 witnesses from either side. Nazi witnesses, as I said, didn't actually belong in IMT because they didn't say anything about either version of the events.
Soviet witnesses. A Soviet mayor under occupation, who heard directly from German authorities and translator about how Nazis wanted to murder Polish POWs, as well as heard from Soviet citizens (who gave their signatures) that they saw POWs working on the road i.e. those Polish POWs weren't shot by Soviets; Markov from Germans' own commission on Katyn, who testified that the commission was done intentionally wrong on purpose so that Germans could shift the blame on Soviets; and I forgot who the third was
In any case, Soviet witnesses testified something meaningful and provable, while Nazi witnesses just deflected the blame by claiming that they didn't see anything, didn't know anything, and weren't in the vicinity of the murders at either possible time of murders ANYWAY.
Oh, and as a side note. Later on Ahrens dropped his ridiculously laughable story about the wolf unearthing bones anyway when Americans picked up the Katyn story back and changed his testimony.
>>1814002>It never went to trial – they never proved it! No German was ever charged or convicted. You are a fucking retard. Literally go and look up who's defender Stahmer was, and then look up on what counts Goring was sentenced, and note the remark about how his guilt was absolutely proven. Katyn WASN'T FUCKING STRUCK DOWN FROM THE INDICTMENT. IT'S IN NUREMBERG TRIALS, IT WAS FUCKING PROVEN THAT NAZIS DID IT
No.1814015
>>1814006You should fucking care because Katyn nonsense is anticommunist myth equating communists to nazis. Any retard who continues to spout this nonsense deserves spit in their face
No.1814018
>>1814015It's either tard on tard violence with nazis executing other fascist or soviets executing a bunch of reactionaries. Clearly given the state of Poland today katyn should have been bigger whoever was responsible.
No.1814022
>>1814002https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/10-01-46.aspRead this, you fucking retard:
>The Tribunal will now state those reasons in declaring its Judgment on such guilt or innocence.
>GOERING
>Goering is indicted on all four Counts. The evidence shows that after Hitler he was the most prominent man in the Nazi regime. He was Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, and had tremendous influence with Hitler, at least until 1943, when their relationship deteriorated, ending in his arrest in 1945. He testified that Hitler kept him informed of all important military and political problems."indicted on all four counts"
>Conclusion
>The Tribunal finds the Defendant Goering guilty on all four Counts of the Indictment.<guilty on all four Counts of the Indictment<guilty<on all four Counts<of the IndictmentKatyn, as I keep repeating, wasn't struck down from the indictment. Suck my dick, Katyn denialist.
No.1814030
>>1814018People who equate nazis to communists deserve to be spit in their faces. People who try whitewash nazis deserve to be spit in their faces. What's so fucking hard to understand?
No.1814134
So did the soviets purge polish people back then or is that a hoax? Would need some sources if that isn't true.
No.1814146
>>1814134The Communist government liquidated the reactionary regime. The people were liberated, not purged.
No.1814150
>>1814146But I keep hearing the communists killed them
No.1814158
>>1814150They killed bourgeois, bureaucrats, and officers of the reactionary regime, not the people.
No.1814198
Replying to this thread is a mistake. This question is being asked in bad faith, and replies are being made in bad faith. Frankly y'all are too fucking autistic to recognize when someone isn't looking to honestly investigate something for themselves.
No.1814217
>>1814011>have done my research like a facebook soccer mom investigating vaccines lmao, you keep lying, making errors and mixing up facts and institutions, you're simply not credible
No.1814380
>>1812706LMAO did you read the links you posted, or just the google translation of the title? Those scans are from a book documenting the terror-acts of KULAKS between 1925 and 1928, you fucking twit.
No.1814382
>>1814217>Torshitter providing no argument LMAO.
>>1813994 The Duma could vote such a thing over and over again, it doesn't mean a thing, because the Duma is not a Judicial body, nor was their decision based on a investigative trial. The virulently anti-communist government of Russia post 1991 literally had a "trial of the Soviet communist party" and Katyn was a part of that trial, and all accusations were disproven.
Fuck off back to /pol/and you miserable wanker.
No.1814383
>>1814382>make flawed argument>have it pointed out<erm, you have no argument!lol
No.1814386
>>1814022I'm sorry, but I don't see any references to Katyn anywhere in that judgement. In fact, it specifically states that the judgement is based on "his own admissions" being "more than sufficiently wide to be conclusive of his guilt" on those four counts. Did Goering admit to doing the Katyn? I don't think so.
>>1814382>The virulently anti-communist government of Russia post 1991I'm going to stop you there – the Soviet government also recognized they did it in 1990 during a meeting with Wojciech Jaruzelski.
No.1814389
>>1814383>have it pointed outI'm not even the same anon you nimrod. At no point have you pointed out anything flawed, you're deliberately dismissing and ignoring physical and judicial evidence and going for PR-optics.
>G-grover Furr is a hackEvery fag that claims this has never debunked any of his arguments or disproven his sources, and instead deflected and brought up nonsequiturs.
Go back to reddit.
No.1814394
>>1814386>the Soviet government also recognized they did it in 1990 during a meeting with Wojciech Jaruzelski. Yes I am quite aware and remember, as that was in April of 1990 specifically by Gorbachev as part of his cuckoldry, the meaningless words of a traitor. More importantly Gorbachev's claim was NOT the claim of the Soviet Government, and he had no authority to make such a claim, President or not, and was harshly told so by his colleagues; that until a Trial was held this claim of guilt was invalid, and prior to a trial, an investigation had to be done. So said investigation was launched in September of 1990 which culminated in the trial in 1991 that I speak of, and in said trial the evidence pointed to the Germans. All supposed proof of Soviet guilt in Document No.1 were proven as forgeries. This is in SPITE of immense pressure on the Federal Prosecutors to confirm Gorbachev's claim.
https://katynmassakern.blogspot.com/2010/07/katyn-49-signs-of-falsification-of.htmlRead Muhin.
No.1814397
>>1814389A funny thing about Furr is that he's kind of a semi-Maoist leftcom and doesn't seem to think highly of Stalin as a communist that much and compared him to a bourgeois social democrat uninterested in overthrowing capitalism. He's just really invested in proving Beria was innocent and that Stalin was honest! Well, okay. I don't think he's morally equivalent to a Holocaust denier but I can't take seriously someone who says the German communists deported to Germany (where they died) during the MR pact isn't true because some of them had been expelled from the Communist Party so therefore they weren't communists herp derp. There's some… forgive the expression… tortured, motivated reasoning going on there. There's also just better defenses of Stalin than that – you can read J. Arch Getty or Losurdo.
No.1814398
>>1814397Oh c'mon don't be silly
Didn't happen but it should have
we'll do it again No.1814405
>>1814400So do you have any theories on why Losurdo believes the Soviets did Katyn? You can say he's just wrong, reading forgeries, etc. but he suggests one a reason for the Soviet massacre of Polish officers was because those officers were anti-Semites. (I doubt contemporary Polish historiography about Katyn brings that up.) But he didn't think it involved Stalin's personality or even the regime led by him as much as the situation.
No.1814415
>>1814405>>1814407Honestly as an old-fag who wrote an effortpost on Katyn a while back I need to redo said effort-post. I lost my original document so I'll need to start from scratch, however I suggest you read the following links and their sources. The fact of the matter is that while I may defend Grover Furr's claim on Katyn, I did so after carefully reading and studying the subject to confirm his claims. The German story does not add up and the 1990s claim about Soviet guilt is based on false documents and ideological arguments. A massacre of such a scale could not simply be covered up, the German's had tried with many of their smaller-scale Einsatzgruppen operations and failed, so why and how would the USSR suddenly be capable of magicking away all the proof? German ammunition, impossibilities in terms of the time it would take, hell even basic body decomposition and the propagandist nature of Germany's claim makes Soviet guilt improbable AT BEST, and primarily those ideologically motivated to attack the USSR and its legacy push this story of the NKVD doing it.
https://espressostalinist.com/2015/03/01/the-truth-about-katyn/ http://www.idcommunism.com/2016/04/the-real-story-of-katyn-massacre.html No.1814436
>>1814415>propagandist nature of Germany's claim … and primarily those ideologically motivated to attack the USSR and its legacy push this story of the NKVD doing it. That's true. I understand that. Like the whole issue is tricky for communists for that reason (also that what happened was bad). But there being motivated reasoning by the Nazis during the war and anti-communist propagandists in the years following to push this really hard is not a great argument for why it didn't happen. People really just don't like to believe atrocities committed by their own side. But war is full atrocities. The Soviet army committed atrocities during World War II. But there's also little question that the Nazis committed far more and worse atrocities than the communists ever did.
No.1814449
>>1812438>The entirety of the East German officer corps until the 70s was ex-Wehrmacht and like half of the functionaries of the SEDBullshit
No.1814455
Why do these threads always devolve into Katyn discussions? Who gives a fuck about retarded dead Polish officers? The only purges any communist should give a shit about are the Moscow Trials. Im not interested in getting into a debate about who was right or wrong there but im pointing out that if you care about anything other than those you have the wrong priorities on talking about purges under Stalin.
No.1814578
>>1814386>I'm sorry, but I don't see any references to Katyn anywhere in that judgementIt literally talks about the indictment, which contains Katyn. Even if you go the retard road and start claiming that Goring wasn't responsible, here's the fucking fact that rulings and proceedings of the Nuremberg Trials were carried against ORGANIZATIONS with one PRIMARY defendant defending in each case. Even in this case, Katyn is still Nazis' doing, because it's in THERE
>Did Goering admit to doing the Katyn? I don't think so.Whose defendant was Stahmer, you idiot? How do you fucking explain why Goering's defendant was the defendant at Katyn case?
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