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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1694070974831.png (1.04 MB, 1280x623, anime_brics.png)

 No.1590991[View All]

WHAT IS MULTIPOLARISM
Multipolarism, in its most basic form, posits a world where multiple powers (countries or entities) exist in a state of relative equilibrium, challenging the unipolar hegemony led mainly by the United States post-Cold War. The emergence of China, the reassertion of Russia, the rise of regional powers like India, Brazil, and South Africa, among others, suggest a move towards this multipolar world.


BUT is it rly just Capitalism 2: Electric Boogaloo - Neo-Dengism Edition? To what extent is multipolarism just capitalist nationalism for people not in green on this map? If the whole thrust of socialism is now just "America bad" what becomes of the classical socialist goals of workers control of the means of production, and abolishing class society?


RELATED THREADS:
🇧🇷 • /brg/ - Brazil general >>>/leftypol/1793453
🇷🇺🇺🇦 • /ukraine/ - Russia-Ukraine war general >>>/leftypol/1838552
🇮🇳 • /subcontinental/ - India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, Buthan general >>>/leftypol/1828924
🇨🇳 • /prc/ - People's Republic of China general >>>/leftypol/211384
🇿🇦 • /africa/ - Africa general >>>/leftypol/1831758
450 posts and 96 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.1829551

Ben Norton, who's in some spanish speaking country and has a website/news outlet called (formerly) multipolarista.

 No.1829554

>>1829540
>Just admit your politics is tantamount to reverse US exceptionalism and call it a day
No, you haven't engaged with a single argument made by anti-imperialists.
You complete dismissed everything I said about the form and function and scale of the US financial system and how it IS the global financial system. Hence Saudis going in and torturing Yemenis for their bank codes, acting as sub-imperialist enforcers.
You swapped the labels on "THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDUMS!!!" to communist and you're so stupid you expect people to take you seriously when you clearly don't read what they say.

 No.1829557

>>1829540
In a counterfactual world where Russia is the decaying world monopolist in a global capitalist world. Where instead it - not anywhere else - is the largest concentration of capitalist power leveraging its superiority to more effectively supress any organised attempt at improving conditions let alone political change;
The multipolar position would be to support semi-periphery east coast against the Canadian comprador state (or whatever) because of the same simple logic that there is ground to be gained by the third party (labor) when cynical actors are divided in conflict than united against you.
The perception that multipolarism is anti-americanism can only be born of believing American exceptionalism is why they are the seat of capital. Rather than a geoeconomic determinative that has no bearing on specific culture. It is projection and putting the cart before the horse

 No.1829558

>>1829546
Didn't he defect to China?

 No.1829560

>>1829551
He was in Nicaragua, he's in China now. The website is now called https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/ the name was changed because that's the name of Radhika Desai's book about imperialism. Which would take you mere hours to read, but you're too afraid to approach anti-imperialist writing. You would rather live in the land of make-believe.

 No.1829561

>>1829555
You are beyond uninteresting, a whiny child.
>>1829558
Maybe, I don't know

 No.1829563

>>1829560
Sorry I got actual shit to do

 No.1829564

>>1829558
>defect
Is going to complete a master's degree "defecting" now, your glowness?

 No.1829565

>>1829563
You're on TOR. You don't have anything to do other than wait for imageboard pages to load. You stand no chance of convincing me, or anyone else here that a spark of intellect resides in you.

 No.1829569

>>1829565
>>1829567
Now fight for the people's amusement, clowns

 No.1829575

>>1829565
disregard that shitposter
>t. Norton x Aaron Good history series enjoyer

 No.1829581

>>1829578
>remember getting mocked by you faggoty fucks for not being an opportunistic rodent
Sorry that I've triggered your PTSD. Feel free to take a break and even read the things you're criticizing during that time, unless that also triggers you.

 No.1829588

>>1829570
>Basically, Multipolarists have no actual arguments for why communists need to shill for foreign capitalists and be stooges for the Iranian, Russian, Chinese, etc. governments other than “Well..America…does bad things”

 No.1829615

File: 1713568498715.png (101.83 KB, 694x1049, 1712914653023.png)

>>1829570

 No.1829749

>>1829615
Picrel should be on the front page. Site is wild with it the last couple of hours.

 No.1829819

>>1829615
>>1829749
Holy shit, you have to be on a whole new level of stupidity to defend Russia as an alleged communist or even ML.

 No.1829849

File: 1713577474756.jpeg (17.24 KB, 499x500, 0d2.jpeg)

>>1829819
>"Defend"
You're still fucking doing it; what is this liberal personification of states - capitalist states no less - as individualistically moral entities to be 'defended' or 'denounced'. There is no defending or supporting anything because there is no effect at a commentary level because it could not care less. Out of cynical interest calculated upon historical conditions it did not choose - the Russian bourgeois have found themselves in opposition. Whose success comes at the cost of the hegemon to create a weaker net capitalist whole.

If everyone here signed a petition denouncing the invasion not a fucking thing would change and vice versa. Because morality at the individual level can only be superficially performative. Rather at the systematic level does it become salient.
At that systematic level, conceding to reality that the invasion has occurred completely irrespective to any personal opinion because history is not debate club. How this event can be seized upon, how this event shakes up capitalist dynamics, how that shakeup can be used as a catalyst for. Is the moral imperative with respect to reality.

The bourgeois are opportunistic, that opportunism has come into contradiction with a competing opportunist state that refuses to concede its hoarded rentier position. An event to be used rather than snidely dismissed. A dismissal that in its performative opposition puts you in parallel with hegemonic interests.


Geopolitics is not a "debate" where a side is picked. With an individualistic presumption that the world cares. It is observed and acted around. The point that is refused to be understood; that it is but one convenient step not the goal.

 No.1829890

>>1829849
>Geopolitics is not a "debate" where a side is picked.
Except in the context of people debating on an internet forum. Like you say: nothing would change based on what people say here, but what you leave out is that this doesn't mean the people here are universally intelligent, neutral observers analysing objective conditions. On the contrary, most are deeply partial emotional young men with a thousand petty biases that incline them to love whoever united states foreign policy loathes, who're inclined to let Russia off easy because even a good communist cannot resist the aesthetic linkage between Russia and Communism in the west - even if he ought to remember that the modern Russian state was born from blackest reaction it's so easy to displace when, like the USSR, it's a primary foreign policy opponent of the US…

Analysis of geopolitics by the powerless is generally cope, in-group signalling (look how much I hate the US guys! The US in which 90% of the time, I live.) escapism. Why work hard to do any local organising? Why think of a way of doing so that isn't LARP? Russia and China and Iran and, and, and, uhh, the next set of Fijians to mount a coup d'etat will do all the work for you. Look, they even use soviet looking tanks and fighters jets, that's something right? If you squint you can see the T-38s around the washington monument!
The result is then patently facile analysis, like people who's every statement indictates that they believe the Ukraine war is basically one long string of Russian victories, every setback being a decoy, a strategic retreat, etc, etc, and if you say otherwise you're a Ukranian shill. How the dispassionate analyist finds his passions aroused by people presenting the opposite case! how curious!

 No.1829902

>>1829890
>Analysis of geopolitics by the powerless is generally cope, in-group signalling (look how much I hate the US guys! The US in which 90% of the time, I live.) escapism. Why work hard to do any local organising? Why think of a way of doing so that isn't LARP? Russia and China and Iran and, and, and, uhh, the next set of Fijians to mount a coup d'etat will do all the work for you. Look, they even use soviet looking tanks and fighters jets, that's something right? If you squint you can see the T-38s around the washington monument!

Taken In good faith you cannot state you are above the pigs if you roll around in the shit with them in the pigsty. Why do they get the agency to decide the frame of argument, why does poor old you have to engage with their framing while dismissing any higher economic analysis. Why let them decide the base ignorance of debate unless you yourself subscribe to their tenets from the opposite end.

Taken as bait Who the fuck said any of this? Where are they beyond the crevices of your own mind? . Where are the posters calling Russia the substitute, where are the posters saying local organising is bad; an effort helped by a fractured world order with less pressure and greater leverage. Most importantly if they do exist - why should they be taken so seriously as to derail analysis?

Your ego has gotten too involved in an internet debate you think you're above. read the shit thats been written above instead of 'winning;' against a Parasocial image of a poster you dont like or log off and look in a mirror.

 No.1829908

>>1829902 (me)
your counter is built on historical grievance and far worse - petty grievance towards internet people you dont know - rather than any actual analysis of the here and now - if theres a line of thought on how local organising benefits from a unipolar world state it instead of another fucking caricature on how you think the bad people support Russia and even more pathetically if taken true - you take them seriously enough to respond

 No.1829910

>>1829337
even if us hegemony disintegrates it will be replaced both another country's capitalist hegemony

 No.1829912

>>1829902
>Taken as bait Who the fuck said any of this?
People speak through their actions. If someone spends all day talking about the Russia-Ukraine war, they do not have to say that they neglect or reject local organising. Their mind is clearly elsewhere. They might even say they're for it - plenty of idiots who waste their time on other things will say that, in principle, they love and support organising. Their love is theoretical, their support "moral".

I do not think I am above the internet debate, I look at it from above. The arguments themselves are boring, but the motivations of those who make the arguments are socially interesting and can be slotted into general theories about how people work.

>>1829908
I do not care, at this time, about the relative impact of a multipolar versus unipolar world state on local organising. Local organisers have effectively no impact either way - you may as well consider whether an asteroid falling from the sky would be beneficial or harmful, what happens will happen, 仕方がない. I don't think bad people support Russia, I think stupid, desperate people get overly invested in foreign conflicts of all stripes - NAFO freaks have the same basic disease, but I'm not going to kick the outgroup for easy points so people here can feel good about themselves.

 No.1829915

>>1829912
Retards on the geopolitical conflict threads need to be forcibly shipped to a war zone to fight for whatever bourgeois war machine they're screeching support for tbh.

 No.1829939

File: 1713584818460.jpg (625.6 KB, 2048x1536, 2014.JPG)

>>1829915
Is this anti-ISIS pro-Assad imperialism?

 No.1830073

File: 1713607664592.png (274.2 KB, 1210x842, ClipboardImage.png)


>>1829428
>despite being far more developed than any of the aforementioned
because imperialism isn't determined by a measure of absolute development but development relative to

>>1829440
>the world capitalist system as a whole.

 No.1830079

>>1829890
I think you missed the point the poster was making.

 No.1830087

What does anti-imperialism means to so called anti-multipolarists, if not dismantling the hegemonic world imperialist system? Weakening it? Building alternatives that allow nations to resist imperial imposition? Is it just being more mean on twitter?

Bloodgasm's post, "anti-imperialism, not multipolarism", do anti-multipolarists not understand how multipolarism came to be? How it was painstakingly built against the constant sabotage of western hegemony? Do they think it just magically appeared like a weather event?

Surely they're not drooling morons, and can at least understand that deliberate planning and half a century of consistent, fraught execution created the conditions we see today.

Must they resort to ridiculous strawmen, such that claiming that their opponents believe that Russia is communist and that building multipolarity will magically bring heaven communism on Earth?

Giving them the benefit of the doubt, they aren't building these outrageous strawmen out of malice or illiteracy. So what remains? Where do these people get these insane talking points? Is it on Twitter? On YouTube? Can anyone comment?

>>1829558
>Didn't he defect to China?
This is so funny. I'm an immigrant. Maybe I'll start saying I'm a defector.

 No.1830219

File: 1713624096248.jpg (90.64 KB, 1080x729, look.jpg)

>>1830087
>dismantling the hegemonic world imperialist system
They are not doing that. Capital will just shift eastward or somewhere else. Billionaires and their exuberant wealth aren't confined to the US or EU alone. Multinational corporations span the world over. The world imperialist system includes said "anti-imperialist" countries. They are a part of it, all they want is a bigger share of its profits.
>Weakening it
Nurturing capitalist compradors towards alternate imperialist spheres of influence does not weaken the imperialist system, that is just a feature of it.
>Building alternatives that allow nations to resist imperial imposition?
When everything is still capitalist, there is no alternative being put forth. It is still capitalism.

>do anti-multipolarists not understand how multipolarism came to be?

Yes. It is just late-stage capitalism running its course over the world. It is not socialist, it is not "anti-imperialist" it is a direct result of imperialism in our modern age as it was during Lenin's time. It is a time when competing imperialist nations are re-divvying up the world and are clashing with one another first through proxy then through direct conflict.
>How it was painstakingly built against the constant sabotage of western hegemony
This is a ridiculous claim. Crisis of capitalism have continued throughout all these "polarities". Mutipolarity wasn't manufactured like some secret weapon to smash the west. Its just the conditions of the time we are in. Conditions that can change relatively quickly.
>understand that deliberate planning and half a century of consistent, fraught execution created the conditions we see today
Who planned this? Wtf are you talking about? This is schizo nonsense. Many things created the conditions we have today. To surmise that this all is some perfectly implemented plan decades in the making is insane. So was the fall of the ussr, the 2008 crash, covid, all a part of this grand plan to birth multipolarity too?
>Must they resort to ridiculous strawmen
>such that claiming that their opponents believe that Russia is communist
We have all seen comments stating unironically that modern Russia is socialist. Say what you will about those idiots, but they are squarely in your camp and in your spaces.
>and that building multipolarity will magically bring communism on Earth?
Again there are idiots who say these things and think this. You may disagree, but they are staunch allies of "multipolarity" because multipolarity has nothing to do with building socialism but rather the expansion of various business ventures so it is no surprise opportunists and grifters are its loudest voices.
>Where do these people get these insane talking points?
I can only speak for myself but it is not from internet personalities but from Marxist theory itself. From the study of socialist history. All this fawning over multipolarity, means nothing. The history of class struggle within many nations and time periods is so vast and complex that simplifying it all down to whether or not multipolarity is a thing or whether or not a reigning hegemony is in power, is frankly insultingly stupid. Peak armchair naval gazing. There is so much that needs to be done, so much much ground that needs to be rethreaded from what was lost to revisionism and anti-communist bias, education that must be met, parties that need reconstructing, why waste precious time on tailing nations/geopolitics and following a line that seeks to mainly empower our class enemies with only vague reformist promises to the vast swathes of workers who deserve way more? Everything I've seen about multipolarity flies in the face of all that I have learned about Marxism, is propagated by ex-trots with ties to finance capital, is filled with crypto-fascists, reformists, and revisionists, is praised by reactionary regimes, has been used as an excuse to repress communists, and seeks not to replace the global imperialist system but to nurture its growth under the vulgar guise of "anti-imperialism".

 No.1830220

>>1830219
>They are not doing that. Capital will just shift eastward or somewhere else. Billionaires and their exuberant wealth aren't confined to the US or EU alone. Multinational corporations span the world over. The world imperialist system includes said "anti-imperialist" countries. They are a part of it, all they want is a bigger share of its profits.
You really have no concept of how global trade is currently organized, do you? The whole financial system is set up to keep colonized countries in a lower level of the value ladder. Christ, you really only read the news!

 No.1830222

The source of their wealth IS the international inequality, get this through your head! It's 1% of the NATO+ countries doling out enough to 10% of the population to keep personnel in industries that need to be secured (for police/military enforcement, surveillance, or various monopoly rents) that creates this supersized global bourgeoisie that's strangulating the planet? Where have you been?

 No.1830224

>>1828845
i am that anon, miss me with the mind palace shit. people who "support china" are for you defined as anyone who pushes back against the US narrative. they can do it without clearly stating they think China is just a better platform for imperial core leftoidism than the US, when in fact it is a developing country utlizing the unstoppable engine of maoist agriculture

 No.1830497

File: 1713640213347.jpg (68.06 KB, 560x680, GLf7mtfW0AAnaoF.jpg)


 No.1830534

>>1830219
You claim to have learned so much about Marxism, and still don't understand that "the real movement" is used in direct contrast to "the ideologically pure movement".

 No.1830536

>>1830534
>calling anything you pull out of your ass "the real movement"
real brainlet hours

 No.1830537

File: 1713642835696.png (440.07 KB, 721x545, 1672663390117847.png)

>60.8$B of aid
ew

 No.1830539

File: 1713643061803.jpg (67.37 KB, 482x427, 1618916040239.jpg)

>>1830537
healthcare pls

 No.1830566

>>1830497
>You are the front door of this great continent; we are the back door
Was Mao aware of the subtle sexual undertone this statement could assume?

 No.1830860

>>1829902
Every war now, including the one Iran is on the brink of, is competition between bourgeois states. These are all advanced bourgeois nations with developed state powers turning outward against one another, and the communist position is the same one Lenin supported in regards to the great war.

 No.1830863

>>1830537
>>1830539
Sorry but complaining to workers that "X government is taking your money and giving it to Israel/Ukraine", ostensibly meant as a means of stirring them up and raising their consciousness, is in reality purely bourgeois rhetoric that does not move beyond the bounds of capitalist politics. Telling workers that the state is putting money to 'the wrong use' amounts to implying there is a 'correct use' of money beyond the function it serves for capital, thus by extension telling workers they have a stake in 'fixing' the distribution of surplus-value.

At least the fight for higher wages serves as an arena for struggle, to sharpen class antagonism and engage workers in strikes and confrontations, as long as communists do not support wage increases as an end in itself and definitely not because that money is 'rightfully' for the workers (it isn't).

 No.1830868

>>1830860
This, we must not fall into anti-americanism and forget about all the millitary bases Iran, Russia and China have spread across the world or their hegemony on finance and information

 No.1830869

>>1830868
Cool strawman. Despite all the theatrics the US and China have no problem doing business with each other, anyway.

 No.1830871

>>1830863
>amounts to implying there is a 'correct use' of money
there is a correct use: bettering the lives of the working class
workers need to be made aware how many resources are being sent to the fascist states of ukraine and israel and the reason WHY so much is sent there to their detriment when they're barely able to pay their bills: because it's in america's elite interest to strangle russia, iran and china

 No.1830905

>>1830860
> advanced bourgeois nations with developed state powers turning outward against one another
do you actually think imperialism is when nations have "developed state power"? how does that make them turn outward against one another and what does it have to do with capitalism?

 No.1830956

This is probably the dumbest idea I've ever heard of

 No.1830958

With the last aid package the Us Congress seems to communicate that they are 100% behind war for the sake of unipolarity on three different fronts: Ukraine, Taiwan, and Palestine.
Personally I have the gut feeling they will lose on two fronts and win on one of them, but that's just my prediction

 No.1830974

>>1830073
> Francs
Anon, from which decade is that source from?

 No.1836234

>>1830220
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/outsourcing-exploitation-global-labor-value-chains/

There is a fantastic article written on it by Intan Suwandi, Author of Value Chains: The New Economic Imperialism

I recommend the series the article is a part of by OpenDemocracy, called decolonising the economy: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/decolonising-the-economy/

Also in this is, John Smith's article, Imperialism in a coffee cup, Smith and Suwandi are really the best current authors on Imperialism, best explainers of it.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/imperialism-coffee-cup/

 No.1837531

>>1829354
the swan song of the desperate burger

 No.1839477

>>1590991
What if I prefer one socialist pole instead of multiple capitalist poles?

 No.1839491

>>1839477
Well better tell China to start moving for global hegemony then, instead of cross-linking the imperial periphery and permanently destroying the global empire ☺️


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