No.1590991[Last 50 Posts]
WHAT IS MULTIPOLARISMMultipolarism, in its most basic form, posits a world where multiple powers (countries or entities) exist in a state of relative equilibrium, challenging the unipolar hegemony led mainly by the United States post-Cold War. The emergence of China, the reassertion of Russia, the rise of regional powers like India, Brazil, and South Africa, among others, suggest a move towards this multipolar world.
BUT is it rly just Capitalism 2: Electric Boogaloo -
Neo-Dengism Edition? To what extent is multipolarism just capitalist nationalism for people not in green on this map? If the whole thrust of socialism is now just "America bad" what becomes of the classical socialist goals of workers control of the means of production, and abolishing class society?
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>>>/leftypol/1831758 No.1606805
>>1606803>being this mind brokenno, not everyone who replies to you is the same person
yes, multiple people disagree with your retarded bullshit
No.1606806
>>1606802So where's Benjamins proof that they did?
No.1606810
>>1606808yes, that's correct
i have a bigger issue with anti-communists than i do with people using mean words in general
No.1606813
>>1606808So why are you ok with people being anti-communists but not communists criticizing communist parties?
No.1606814
>>1606810Ok, so you're a bitch that rejects evidence all because someone said tankie in spite of receipts being provided.
Noted.
No.1606820
>>1606814>receiptsAKA dead links that have nothing to do with your initial claim
>rejects evidenceno, i point out that it's
retarded stupid to claim grayzone are feds/porky funded because some third organization got money through the donor-advised fund of GSPF
cry about it
No.1606821
>>1606596
>Ziggas support Rojava
The ziggas dencendent of "syria good" leftypol don't
No.1606823
>WHAT IS MULTIPOLARISM
The process by which the parasitic lifeform that is Capital abandons its current host and moves onto a new, more viable one.
No.1606835
>>1606600true. nu-leftypol has succumbed to the politically correct branch of the mentally ill and terminally online left
No.1606839
>>1606820>gaslighting this hard<still ignoring the images of said receipts and the connections grayzone has with said billionaires>>1606825<oh no, they criticised china for treatment of Ughyrs Damn, this completely gets rid of their validity!
Plenty of Marxists have also criticised China for this including Yanis Varoufakis- is he an "anti-communist" now?
Again- this still does little to actually prove the receipts wrong, these are publically available and can be viewed in said dropbox.
Just because these guys fell through on this point doesn't diminish the already publicly available receipts.
Again- this is poisoning the well, and displays actual disingenuity on your part.
There's plenty of leftist sources that i read that come with takes and arguments i disagree with- but in this case, the receipts for the funds are there to see.
This isn't manufactured and this isn't a point of them photoshopping. It's there for all to see- yet because they said "le mean thing about china" and said "le tankie" they ought to be discarded?
Spare me.
No.1606845
Socialism! Not Multipolarism
2nd Edition
A. Bloodgasm
Multipolarity is not something one should be for or against, because it really isn't something you can attach yourself to like some camp or some ideology. Multipolarity, as an existent term, is just a signifier of the current global economic conditions of the world in regards to the current dominant powers that own and transfer capital whether within their borders or without. What it means as a definition is just that instead of a singular global hegemon influencing global affairs or a dual power struggle between two superpowers, it is a condition in which the world is divided amongst multiple powers influencing global affairs/capital/the market.
To be for or against it is the equivalent of going out in the street and declaring yourself as being pro-summer or anti-winterists. Its silly. Its just like the changing of seasons and people have to adapt to it. When its freezing outside, you change into something warmer. But even the hardiest winter clothing is not going to keep one warm against the coldest winter, and we are heading into a long hellish winter. A capitalist winter twilight.
One thing many who espouse the concept of multipolarism (attaching oneself to multipolarity as if it is an ideology) tend to forget (or just outright refuse to acknowledge) that this new multipolar world we are heading towards is a capitalist-centric multipolarity. History has shown that last time this world had gone through a capitalist-led multipolar age helmed by imperialist powers, it had unleashed two world wars and countless dead. This not to say that having a unipolar or bipolar world is any better. During the Cold War the champion of capitalist hegemony, the United States, through proxy wars as well as actual wars, coups, and assassinations/subterfuge helped/directly committed atrocities and war-crimes that make WWII pale in comparison. During the unipolar reign of neoliberalism after the USSR fell, the atrocities did not stop, it only continued. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, the list goes on and continues to this day. All to reinforce capitalism and sustain imperialist expanse.
This is why one cannot attach themselves to a concept of multipolarity, or unipolarity, or bipolarity. The problem is not how many powers there are in the world. The problem is the global economic system that those powers exist under. Capitalism. Capitalism breeds competition. Nations or precisely the national bourgeoise of that nation compete for capital. They do not grow together in peace under capitalism as many proponents of multipolarism tend to espouse as a benefit of multipolarity. They head towards conflict, because capitalism breeds conflict. There is no multipolar peace under capitalism, only the prelude to war and destruction as nations compete for power.
Proponents of multipolarism will almost always fall back on and reference the stymied development of imperialized nations outside of the imperial core. They are correct in pointing this out and referencing the contradiction of neocolonialism. Those nations do in fact need to break free from imperialism and national liberation is necessary. But it is one thing to understand the purpose of a national bourgeoisie replacing the comprador in that struggle, but it is important to never rest solely on the national bourgeois to lead the socialist revolution or to think that they would ever allow that to happen. They ignore class and only focus on the “development” of said nations. This is a primary flaw of the multipolarist that leads to their the defense of reactionary regimes and the repression those regimes do to socialists within those nations.
Multipolarism does not care for the working class of those nations. It is just a changing of task masters. Nothing more, nothing less. Any boon for the workers borne from breaking away from the global hegemon is the equivalent of a heavy boot slightly being let off their collective necks. The struggle for socialism is not over and not won. The fact is that they are still under the boot of their national oppressors. It is up to them and we as socialists to use that slight aside to break free from under the weight of that boot.
Many multipolarists love to reference the how many of these budding capitalist nations have seemingly good standings with the few “socialist” nations of this world most predominantly Cuba and the DPRK as if that is a justification that multipolarity is a net positive. They tend to forget completely the this does not wash away the fact these growing countries are still capitalist and oppress their own working class.
If anything this does not justify multipolarity at all, it only reinforces that we still currently exist under a unipolar hegemony front-manned by the United States. This is because most of these countries are aligned due to the economic pressure (sanctions and blockades) put forth by the United States as well as the EU NATO-bloc (which is by in large an extension of American power). When that pressure eventually fades only time will tell if that alignment of those interests between worker-led nations and the nations run by power-hungry capitalists continue or (as history has shown us many times) inevitably clash.
And what of the old lion in the room? The United States. It is a waning power there is no doubt of it. Mulitpolarists love to frame their idealist multipolar world as one in which the United States is practically a nonentity. That there will be new orders that rise in its stead. That same United States that has military bases all across the globe will somehow just cease to be a relevant thing. Or if anything it will turn a new leaf and just accept the changing of seasons. Iridescent foolishness. Capitalism breeds conflict and the United States has sustained itself off conflict, colonialism, and imperialism from its inception. The capitalists who run that country will be anything but docile when their grip on global power is threatened. We see it today with the arming of Ukraine and the powder keg that is Taiwan. Global war is brewing, a prelude to the birth of a new multipolar world. If we even survive to see it. And all for what I ask you? Another capitalist-led world built on the ruins of the last? This is not even capitalist realism at this point. It is just capitalist reincarnation. A continual recycling of the capitalist system reinventing itself at the expense of everything; our entire existence put to flame just to try and keep the old ways alive. That is the multipolar world we are heading towards. But it doesn't have to be that way.
The global workers movement has been gutted and kept down for decades especially in the west. This has led many to adopt a form a campism to cope with lack of a united global movement. Anti-americanism, eastern/western dichotomy, and multipolarism are offshoots of this void. It allows one to feel that are apart of something bigger than themselves that, in their minds, can lead to something different. A capitalist multipolar world will not change or fix the problems that affect this world (which are born from capitalism) only the amount of hands that hold power in it (hands which are almost all attached to the arms of each respective nation's capitalist class).
This does not mean there is no global proletariat or that workers movements have gone extinct. Capitalism proletarianizes the populace. Workers currently toil in hellish conditions all around the globe and they are aware of their position. They know they are mistreated. They are striking and protesting for better conditions all around the global south. Workers are fighting against their oppressors. There is class consciousness among the working class. We must push towards socialism. Not only national liberation. Not some distant idealist dream of a multipolar world which only continues the corrupt system of the past. But socialism. We should not just want a multipolar world in the yolk of capitalism. Whether unipolar, bipolar, or multipolar it must be socialist! We must demand and bring forth a world run by the workers not the just the national capitalist class of warring nations. Global polarity feels like the changing of seasons and it seems we are heading towards a deadly winter. The best winter clothing may not protect one, but if we all get together for warmth, we'll persevere.
<Errata to this 2nd edition:
Better paragraph displacement (in my opinion)
Added a section on neocolonialism and the national bourgeoisie Par. 5
Added sentence in Par. 6
Added sentences in Par. 12 to clarify socialism does not end with national liberation alone
Removed final paragraph from previous version (anon was right, it was over-doing it)
Does not contain editor revisions from the NM version
No.1606847
here some more cool stuff from this fed-tier publication: defending azov!
>>1606839>criticised china for treatment of Ughyrstranslation: they are repeating victims of communism
ACTUAL CIA GLOWOP + PORKY FUNDED, YOU KNOW, THE THING YOU ARE ACCUSING GRAYZONE OF BEING?? propanda, like western leftists do
this is not "criticism", there is no reasonable position on this question other than THERE IS NO UYGHUR GENOCIDE
No.1606848
>>1606839>>1606825This just in noted "anti-communist" Fidel Castro ousted as such because of comments on Stalin:
<In Castro's opinion, Stalin "committed serious errors – everyone knows about his abuse of power, the repression, and his personal characteristics, the cult of personality", and also held him accountable for the invasion of the Soviet Union by Nazi Germany in 1941. Fidel also stated that one of Stalin's errors was "purging the Red Army due to Nazi misinformation", which weakened the Soviet Union militarily on the eve of Operation Barbarossa >Castro, Fidel (2009). My Life: A Spoken Autobiography. Ramonet, Ignacio (interviewer). No.1606849
>>1606847 (me)
*and also defending communists being persecuted in ukraine, forgot to mention this :)
No.1606850
>>1606848>saying stalin committed errors is the same as echoing CIA propaganda about le wiggers being genocided in chynaanfem just can't stop reaching new levels of retardation
No.1606851
>>1606847And again- this doesn't denote from the actual receipts that they commented on, which are available
<but they side with AzovYeah that sucks, how does that disprove the receipts?
No.1606852
>>1606850>still changing the subject this hardAgain, anon- how does this refute the receipts?
No.1606855
>>1606852you're the one who brought up the fidel quote bitch, you're going to paste some stupid shit and then complain when i address it?
>receiptsthere are none, you got caught posting dumb shit and not knowing what a donor-advised fund is, cope
No.1606857
>>1606855<there are none>still gaslighting this hardAgain
>>1606792>>1606781>>1606771>inb4 these aren't receipts No.1606860
>you have to support this right wing government because its victim of imperialism!
No.
No.1606861
>>1606771>>1606774$12.45 million?! I'd take Goldman-Sachs money. lol
No.1606862
>>1606860<I will take the most simple and obvious example. In Brazil there now reigns a semifascist regime that every revolutionary can only view with hatred. Let us assume, however, that on the morrow England enters into a military conflict with Brazil. I ask you on whose side of the conflict will the working class be? I will answer for myself personally—in this case I will be on the side of “fascist” Brazil against “democratic” Great Britain. Why? Because in the conflict between them it will not be a question of democracy or fascism. If England should be victorious, she will put another fascist in Rio de Janeiro and will place double chains on Brazil. If Brazil on the contrary should be victorious, it will give a mighty impulse to national and democratic consciousness of the country and will lead to the overthrow of the Vargas dictatorship. The defeat of England will at the same time deliver a blow to British imperialism and will give an impulse to the revolutionary movement of the British proletariat. Truly, one must have an empty head to reduce world antagonisms and military conflicts to the struggle between fascism and democracy. Under all masks one must know how to distinguish exploiters, slave-owners, and robbers!source: ice pick man himself
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/09/liberation.htm No.1606864
>>1606858>still can't disprove the receipts>still having a kvetch because of them saying dumbshit about China <unrelated Fidel shitGuess Fidels an anti-communist for having a state funeral for francisco franco then?
https://blogs.elpais.com/historias/2014/06/franco-y-fidel-enemigos-cordiales.htmlAgain, still no refutation of the receipts
No.1606867
>>1606862>not only are you going to support 3rd world liberalism, you have to support 3rd world fascism as well because trotsky said something 100 years agoNo.
No.1606868
>>1606864i tend to give more leeway to leaders who led and backed revolutions (plus fought until their literal last breath in the case of fidel) against imperialism than i do with western anarkiddies who do fucking
NOTHINGi don't know why you expect me to levy the anti-communist label against fidel, stalin or mao because they made mistakes just because im calling some radlib faggot spreading CIA propaganda on twitter an anti-communist
No.1606870
>>1606781Say what you want about Ben "Giant Retard" Norton, but if you talk shit on Vijay Prashad then those are fighting words.
No.1606874
>>1606839>>1606839>including Yanis Varoufakis- is he an "anti-communist" now?huh yeah he is a lib
not the worst one by far but still
No.1606876
>>1606845how many times are you gonna repost this garbage
No.1606881
>>1606845>This server could not prove that it is newmultitude.org; its security certificate expired 11 days ago.update ur fukkin certificate brah
No.1606882
>>1606868>i don't know why you expect me to levy the anti-communist label against fidel, stalin or mao because they made mistakes just because im calling some radlib faggot spreading CIA propaganda on twitter an anti-communist<b-but they do nothing Right because saying some dumbshit about Azov and China is so much more worse than having a
state mandated funeral for Francisco Francoyou and I both come to the conclusion that Fidel isn't an anti-communist- but again, if you can stomach that but not a bunch of dipshits online saying dumb things, again, you're a bitch- but i shouldn't expect anymore from someone who throws around homophobic and abelist slurs around but has an absolute meltdown over the word "tankie"
still no arguments of refutation of receipts btw.>>1606870Vijay has some good words, but even im somewhat skeptical on someone who accepts that amount of money. That being said if Vijay pulls a ho-chi minh, i'll be impressed.
But again, this focus is on the greyzone not Vijay.
No.1606884
>>1606874>Yanis Varoufakis who actually advocates for doing deals with China is a libhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afhQtQCi0XIhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Y57ULVqC8Stop using words you don't understand.
No.1606885
>>1606882>some dumb shit about azovradlib-speak translator: defending arming azov and saying they're
not even that right-wing bro!>some dumb shit about chinaradlib-speak translator: CIA propaganda about chyna genociding wiggers
>still no arguments of refutation of receipts btw.that's funny, because i literally did refute the "receipts", i pointed out that it's a third organization that isn't grayzone plus it's a
DONOR-ADVISED FUND, even if it was grayzone (which it isn't) it wouldn't prove anything other than some individual or organization sent the funds
through the GSPF (think of it like a bank or a payment processor if you're too fucking stupid to get it)
still no answer btw No.1606886
>>1606880I mean tbqph a good chunk of people on leftypol praised Infrared too-
Just because socialists/anti-fascists say dumb things doesn't mean we should disregard everything they say.
No.1606891
>>1606880>He actually praised Midwestern Marx not to too long ago I hear.They're by far the best of the YouTube ML e-celebs, at least after the Deprogram guys. Still, there's a difference between criticism and insinuating that somebody is a paid shill for billionaires. Honestly even if they are taking that money, I don't really see how the stuff published by Tricontinental can be construed as shilling. Even their pieces on multipolarity make a point to acknowledge its limitations. If comrades can take money and not have it negatively influence their content, then they absolutely should.
No.1606892
>>1606885<still throws around radlib because of these points.Again, just because they do this dumb shit isn't enough to refute the receipts
< i pointed out that it's a third organization that isn't grayzone plus it's a DONOR-ADVISED FUND, even if it was grayzone (which it isn't) it wouldn't prove anything other than some individual or organization sent the funds through the GSPF (think of it like a bank or a payment processor if you're too fucking stupid to get it)>think of it like a payment processor if it was a payment processor, then why is it listed as a grantmaker?
>receipts of max blumenthal recieving money here>>1606781You're not very smart are you?
No.1606895
>>1606892>if it was a payment processorit's not you stupid motherfucker, i'm just trying to make it easier for you to understand since saying donor-advised fund and linking you to a wikipedia article that explains what the terms means clearly didn't work
someone/some organization decides to donate to someone/some organization and then the funds go
THROUGH gspf, it's not a donation from gspf itself
No.1606896
>>1606893Maybe they're being funded by goldman sachs as well, lol.
No.1606899
>>1606895>it's not a donation from gspf itselfThen why is it listed as a grantmaker.
Kind of odd that this so-called "grantmaker" is making a donation. :^)
No.1606900
>>1606899*This so called "payment processor"
No.1606905
>>1606891>They're by far the best of the YouTube ML e-celebs<literally praised the black hundreds<defended infracel<are literally patsocs in dragno
>don't insinuate that they are funded by billionares>but even if they are i don't blame them???????????????????????????????
>If comrades can take money and not have it negatively influence their content, then they absolutely should.bruh
<inb4 "well what! you don't want "leftist" cc's to be paid?"No. We are not talking about patreon money from regular people we are talking about major multi-million dollar backers with their own ideological intentions funding ass loads of cash to a single person which most people don't even know is happening. That, whether the cc likes it or not will influence their content. Jfc.
No.1606906
>>1606900Now let's just say for a moment that what you say is true- that it's not goldman sachs funding it- how exactly would that make it any better?
It's millions of dollars being funded and the greyzone still won't reveal who is funding them as pointed out by badempanada and others.
So again, how does this make them look any good- especially since they're so content to also spread anti-communist lies and fedjacket?
Granted,the fash-bashers i linked say dumb shit, not that i ever said that they didn't but again, how does this refute the receipts that they're being funded by billionaires and consistently spout propaganda that works in favour of the government of Veneuzala when it represses communists?
No.1606907
>>1606899so you've given up on trying to lie about me refusing to provide an argument and are now screaming
GRANTMAKER over and over as if i didn't literally explain to you what a donor-advised fund is, cool
No.1606909
>>1606905<literally praised the black hundreds<defended infracelNever heard them do either of those things but w/e. I especially find it hard to believe that they would praise the Black Hundreds.
>We are not talking about patreon money from regular people we are talking about major multi-million dollar backers with their own ideological intentions funding ass loads of cash to a single person which most people don't even know is happening.Idk Anon, YPG poster has gone to great lengths to show that Fidel and Rojava taking money from the Americans didn't compromise their revolutionary potential. I don't see why I shouldn't hold a similar position for Tricontinental. I haven't seen anything in their content that could reasonably be construed as reactionary or evidence that these alleged donations are negatively influencing their output.
No.1606910
>>1606907>me refusing to provide an argumentBecause you haven't.
>GRANTMAKER over and over as if i didn't literally explain to you what a donor-advised fund is, coolAgain, why is a so-called processor making donations and listed as said grantmaker.
And again- let's just say what you're saying is true: that goldman sachs isn't funding the grayzone, it still doesn't refute the fact that they accepted vast sums of money from an unknown source and still refuse to publish who donates it.
The only person who's lying here is you into thinking the Greyzone aren't anti-communists.
<but you linked an anti-communist sourcebecause they said some dumb shit about china and azov? Again, may as well call Castro an anti-communist because of his state mandated funeral for Franco.
No.1606911
>>1606909>Idk Anon, YPG poster has gone to great lengths to show that Fidel and Rojava taking money from the Americans didn't compromise their revolutionary potential. I don't see why I shouldn't hold a similar position for Tricontinental. I haven't seen anything in their content that could reasonably be construed as reactionary or evidence that these alleged donations are negatively influencing their output.i agree, wish the same could be said about the Grayzone though.
No.1606916
>>1606906>Now let's just say for a moment that what you say is true- that it's not goldman sachs funding it- how exactly would that make it any better?you made the claim here
>>1606536 that this was the case, you mistake me calling you out with me trying to say grayzone is "cool" or actually caring about what you do or don't believe
i don't care if you continue to be an idiot, the only thing i care about in this reply thread is calling out your bullshit lies
>>1606910>Again, why is a so-called processorbecause it's
not a processor, as i said here
>>1606885 and here
>>1606895 , it's a donor-advised fund
when someone says "think of X it like Y" they're making an analogy, they are not saying that X is literally Y you autistic retard
>let's just say what you're saying is true: that goldman sachs isn't funding the grayzone, it still doesn't refute the fact that they accepted vast sums of money from an unknown sourcewhich is a completely different claim
if you just said "grayzone gets money from unknown source" i wouldn't have cared, you said they were funded by goldman sachs though
i'm not responsible for the unfounded claims you post, you made your bed, now sleep on it
No.1606921
>>1606916So again read
<Now let's just say for a moment that what you say is true- that it's not goldman sachs funding it- how exactly would that make it any better?
<if you just said "grayzone gets money from unknown source" i wouldn't have cared, you said they were funded by goldman sachs thoughSo now you're pussying out like a bitch when they get exposed for being at the behest of capitalists and side with anti-communist govs when they repress communists.
Again, let's just say you're right about goldman sachs not directly funding them, how exactly does that make them any better when they except millions and spout anti-communism?
>but you said they were funded by goldman sachsAnd again i said let's concede to that point and say i was wrong- you're still going on like a bitch. :^)
No.1606924
>>1606921>So now you're pussying out like a bitch projection
you've run out of options to squirm around that they did not receive goldman sachs funds as per your initial claim here
>>1606536 so you're now trying to make an argument of whether or not grayzone is "financially responsible" or "transparent with the donations they receive"
>And again i said let's concede to that point and say i was wrong- you're still going on like a bitch. :^)<i-i'm wrong but ur a bitch!!!!lol, lmao
No.1606925
>reminder that this whole argument was started because someone had issue with the word tankie
No.1606928
>>1606925no, it started with you saying grayzone was funded by goldman sachs here
>>1606536 and me asking for a bit of proofs here
>>1606566stay mad
No.1606929
>>1606924>you've run out of options to squirm around that they did not receive goldman sachs funds as per your initial claim hereAnd again, as i said- let's concede that point, how exactly does this make the greyzone less anti-communist, which was also part of the argument?
No.1606931
>>1606928>no, it started with you saying grayzone was funded by goldman sachs here >>1606536 (You) and me asking for a bit of proofs here>>1606767
<if you can get past the whole use of the word tankiei really can't
anyone who uses it unironically as a pejorative has nothing to say that is worth listening needs to be shot
kill yourself as soon as possible
No.1606933
>>1606931this reply
>>1606566 is older than
>>1606767this is how imageboards work, newer replies go to the bottom, yes?
if you can follow the above you should be able to understand that the reply thread about grayzone being goldman sachs glowies started here
>>1606566 No.1606935
YPG flag is just a shitposter. Just filter it. Never makes a post worth reading.
No.1606936
>>1606933Fair point anon- but again, how does this refute them being anti-communists?
No.1606939
>>1606936>fair pointi can't 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
this motherfucker can't even follow a fucking reply thread and they still reply with some smug shit
No.1606940
>>1606939>smug shitHow is me acknowledging where i messed up being "smug"?
Unless we're still talking about Grey-zone being anti-communist which is still a position i maintain.
No.1606942
>>1606909>Never heard them do either of those things but w/e. I actually misremembered, they did not praise the black hundreds but falsely stated that Lenin reached out to the black hundreds as a way to push their patsoc "we must ally with the maga reactionaries bc they are le real working class" spiel.
>comparing geopolitics where lives are on the line and conflicts abound>to the integrity of American ecelebsbruh
>I haven't seen anything in their content that could reasonably be construed as reactionarypic unrelated
No.1606943
>>1606940>ok ok im wrong, but what about [completely unrelated shit]you haven't demonstrated that grayzone is anti-communist, the only thing you posted was a lie about goldman sachs funding them + a twitter screenshot of ben norton criticizing PCV
isn't it fucking hilarious that this bitch rates radlibs on twitter screaming CHYNA WIGGER GENOCIDE, I LOVE AZOV!! on twitter to just be "criticism from the left" but at the same time calls ben norton "anti-communist" because he criticizes some positions the PCV takes? we live in a society No.1606947
>>1606943>a twitter screenshot of ben norton criticizing PCVfor shit that they don't do all the while accusing them of trying to overthrow the Veneuzalan government on behalf of a far right wing figure?
They're also criticising Greece for accusing Russia of committing imperialism.
Also I don't call it "criticism from the left"- it's dumb.
Now are you going to calm down or you still going to throw a temper tantrum?
Also
>he No.1606951
>>1606947*criticising the greek communist party for accusing Russia of committing imperialism
No.1606959
>>1606947>for shit that they don't doproofs? are you going to engage with the claims that ben norton provided or are you just going to pretend it's all wrong with no regard to investigation?
>accusing them of trying to overthrow the Veneuzalan government on behalf of a far right wing figureif you read the things you post as "evidence"
like the dead links you paste earlier you'd know that it's a very specific accusation at some leadership figures, it's not about the entire party
>Also I don't call it "criticism from the left"it's implied when you compare it to fidel criticizing stalin, communists willing to overlook things like the franco shit etc
<inb4 b-but i didn't say those exact words in that order so it doesn't count!!!!cope
>spoileryes? ben norton goes by "he/him", does he not? if not then it's the first time i'm hearing about it
pathetic derail attempt, kys ASAP No.1606963
>>1606942>to the integrity of American ecelebs>pic unrelatedI'm not talking about Midwestern Marx, I was talking about Tricontinental. They aren't e-celebs, they're a think tank with contributions from some of the world's leading Marxist scholars and activists.
No.1606970
>>1606962filter this (pic rel)
>I was talking about Tricontinental.Well I was talking about Midwit Marx. Tn regards to Tricontinental then i refer to what I said here
>>1606880 No one is free from criticism.
No.1606973
>>1606970>No one is free from criticism.Yeah and I'll repeat what I said earlier too. Saying that somebody is in the pocket of big money donors isn't criticism, it's an accusation that needs backing. I don't see anything in the actual content put out by the Tricontinental Institute to support that accusation.
No.1606974
>>1606959>proofs? are you going to engage with the claims that ben norton provided or are you just going to pretend it's all wrong with no regard to investigation?Anon, the proofs was posted here
https://www.idcommunism.com/2023/08/communist-party-of-venezuela-pcv-on-maria-corina-machado-and-psuv-media-manipulation-campaign.htmlNow if ben can actually substantiate his claims and prove the communist party of venezuala as liars then he's got a point. Otherwise his point is as moot as Rojava being a CIA plant.
>you'd know that it's a very specific accusation at some leadership figures, it's not about the entire partyBenjamins own words:
"The so-called communist party of PCV has been moving to the right for years, and formed a de-facto alliance with far-right US-backed coup plotters like Maria Corina Machado, who has openly called for a US military invasion and coordinates closely with Washington"
And yet im supposed to be the one who's trying to weasel my way out of the argument?
Where's Bens point that they've made this de-facto alliance?
>it's implied when you compare it to fidel criticizing stalin, communists willing to overlook things like the franco shit etc <<inb4 b-but i didn't say those exact words in that order so it doesn't count!!!!An implication isn't an affirmation.
The point is, people who say dumb shit can still provide poignant points- broken clock is right twice a day etc. and it doesn't diminish their anti-communism.
Norton and the Greyzone on the other hand regularly defend Russian imperialism and Venezualans cracking down on communists while espousing false propaganda, all the while accepting millions of dollars and as i pointed out- still refuse to point out who funds them.
im to you using >he referring to my gendernot a boy, so hence spoiler and attempt not to derailalso might want to think twice before asking a trans-woman to kill herself, just a heads up No.1606976
>>1606973Which is why we can probs make exceptions for Vijay but Ben?
When he continuously says shit like "Rojava is le CIA", "the communist party of venezuala has formed an alliance with far right wing figures" and "Greek communist party isn't communist because it points out russia is imperialist"
and his org excepts millions of dollars and continues to say this is kind of telling.
No.1606978
>>1606976Yeah fair enough, that shit actually is indicative of being an edgy socdem rather than a communist.
No.1606981
>>1606978>an edgy socdem rather than a communistI don't know if that's supposed to make me feel good considering i think of these guys when i hear "edgy soc-dem"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany>>1606980pic related
No.1606983
>>1606974>ben norton makes a claim>PCV leadership says the claim is falsevery cool, but someone here
>>1606802 already pointed out how stupid this line of argumentation is
engage with the claims he makes
or don't, just try not to call people anti-communists for criticizing (even potentially being wrong in that criticism) while at the same time carrying water for fed-tier anarkiddies spreading CIA propaganda, just my 2 cents>spoilerthis is so disgusting, you can literally go back to
>>1606943 and read what i wrote:
"calls ben norton "anti-communist" because he criticizes some positions the PCV takes"because he criticizes
because [ben norton] criticizes
i literally just pointed out earlier that "he" there was CLEARLY in relation to BEN NORTON (A PERSON THAT GOES BY HE/HIM) and yet you're still trying to claim i'm misgendering
the amount of radlibbery, constant derailment of threads and the fed/porky/anti-communist accusations you levy at anti-imperialist figures while at the same time playing dumb about actual anti-communists blows my mind
>>1606976rojava is CIA
though No.1606994
>>1606990Lol what does that have to do with what you replied to? Don't actually have a response?
No.1607003
>>1606963>They aren't e-celebsTried to watch these fucks.
Disgusting american pigs who only talk about twitter.
unwatchable.
No.1607007
>>1606983>but this line of argumentation is stupidSo is ben making these unsubstantiated claims. Again, where's the proof that the communist party has made this de-facto alliance?
>Rojava is CIAwe've discussed this in this thread
>>1597409By this logic, we may as well call Rojava kremlin puppets considering they also co-ordinate with them to take down ISIS and receive training from them.
and sabo poster can attest to this as well. And you accuse me of trying to derail? Pathetic.
As for the whole point on pronouns- sorry about that, it's like 2am here.
>>1597995>>1597986>>1598052>>1598066 No.1607008
>>1607007Again, burden of proof falls on Ben to prove that this de-facto alliance actually exists and for him to refute the statement made by the communist party of venezuala
No.1607010
>>1607007>we've discussed this in this threadAnd you got proven wrong.
No.1607013
>>1607007>And you accuse me of trying to derail? You definitely are derailing. You're trying to make this thread about American podcasters when we already have a whole thread for that:
>>941093 No.1607018
>>1607015i'll state here that i was joking if linking to the heritage foundation wasn't obvious enough
No.1607027
>>1607023>ziggersno zigga on this board believes putin is a communist, you're fighting ghosts
>patsocsno one cares about american nationalist cults, go here instead:
>>>/leftypol/941093 No.1607034
>>1607010>you got proven wrongLol no. The best the anon could do was samepost and try and draw some conspiratorial bullshit. Don't try and gaslight your way out of this.
Again, still no proof that Rojava is working in the CIAs policy outside of a coordinated effort to defeat ISIS, which again, it also collaborates with Russia in doing
are you the anon who got caught same posting :^)>>1607014So Ben thinks that Maria "thanking the communist party" is a de-facto alliance because the communist party was questioning the judicial process? And she "thanks" the communist party for this?
Again, how does this prove said "alliance" when the communist party has denounced her repeatedly and they too are commenting on how the Venezualan Communist party is being treated by the Venezuelan government.
At this point we may as well call both you and Benjamin mr fantastic given the stretch.
This is as pathetic as ben trying to proove Rojava is a CIA puppet.
I may as well call Chairman Xi a collaborator of the US because he said positive things about Henry Kissinger, or Ho Chi Minh/Fidel Castro a CIA asset because they accepted aid from them.
No.1607044
>>1607034no, ben thinks the PCV defending this far-right glowie lunatic is a de-facto alliance, maria thanking them on twitter is just the confirmation that it's reciprocal too
PCV officials on it:
https://nitter.net/AlbertoRodNews/status/1688943066277629953his tweet about it:
https://nitter.net/BenjaminNorton/status/1690763896544526337>I may as well call Chairman Xi a collaborator of the US because he said positive things about Henry Kissinger, or Ho Chi Minh/Fidel Castro a CIA asset because they accepted aid from them.you may call whoever you want whatever you want, i'm just trying to explain that i don't judge revolutionary leaders with the same standard that i use for smaller figures or literal who's on twitter
china invaded vietnam, im not going to call them anti-communists for it
cuba got aid from america, not going to do it to 'em either
i will do it to some of the leadership of the PCV because they are openly aligned with and defending far-right figures who want to overthrow the maduro government
to put an american puppet regime in place, if it was to actually do socialism instead of that socdem shit it would be great, but it aint No.1607047
>>1607034>Again, still no proof that Rojava is working in the CIAs policy outside of a coordinated effort to defeat ISIS, which again, it also collaborates with Russia in doing They're working with the CIA lots of areas. They were working with American oil corporations lol.
>are you the anon who got caught same posting :^)No clue what you're talking about. If I followed every bullshit post you made I'd be here all day like you.
No.1607052
>>1607047>they’re working with oil companiesTo purchase equipment to make extraction easier. They still control the oil fields, as pointed out here
>>1597923
>inb4 but they stole from SyriaDon’t care, you seize what you can in a Revolution in order to create said revolutionary society.
Also
look up the Arab belt No.1607054
https://npasyria.com/en/105078/ Abdi says Iran, Syrian government coordinate against AANES
>Commander in chief of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) Mazloum Abdi said on Saturday that there is coordination between Iran and the Syrian government against the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria (AANES). That was revealed in the latest events and tensions witnessed in Deir ez-Zor Governorate, eastern Syria.
>On Aug. 30, the SDF announced the dismissal of commander of Deir ez-Zor Military Council, Ahmad al-Khabil, known as Abu Khawla, from duty, for his involvement “in multiple crimes and violations, including communication and coordination with external entities hostile to the revolution, committing criminal offenses and engaging in drug trafficking, mismanaging of the security situation, his negative role in increasing the activities of ISIS cells,” according to the SDF.
>Abdi said that Damascus sought to spread chaos through continuous media incitement and attempted to involve armed groups with tribal affiliations in a battle against the SDF, and he mentioned that there has been no contact between the two parties since the tensions in Deir ez-Zor. No.1607058
>>1607044Calling one positive comment an "alliance" is a pretty big stretch, especially when the PCV were some of the earliest and most steadfast supporters of the Bolivarian Revolution. They only broke with the PSUV because the latter was opening the country's oil wealth to exploitation by US companies. The entire basis for their conflict is that the PCV doesn't think the PSUV is anti-American enough.
No.1607060
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2020/07/us-oil-company-deal-syria-kurds-kobani-turkey-russia-sdc-sdf.html<The Kurdish-led Autonomous Administration of Northeast Syria has signed an agreement with an American oil company, well-placed sources with close knowledge of the deal told Al-Monitor. One of the sources said the agreement to market oil in territory controlled by the US-backed entity and to develop and modernize existing fields was inked last week “with the knowledge and encouragement of the White House.” The sources named the company as Delta Crescent Energy LLC, a corporation organized under the laws of the state of Delaware.https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-oil-usa-idUSKBN24Y0FD<Syria’s foreign ministry said on Sunday that an American oil company had signed an agreement with Kurdish-led rebels who control northeastern oilfields in what it described as an illegal deal aimed at “stealing” Syria’s crude.based rojava developing productive forces
to help the CIA overthrow assad No.1607063
>>1607054Still don't understand why the Syrian government aided in pulling the deir ez-Sor thing from a few weeks ago, made absoloutely no sense and has seemingly wrecked a building relationship between the two.
pure retardation that did not need to happen.
No.1607069
>>1607044So a positive comment made by one leader- who is already in charge of a divided party is somehow an alliance?
This isn’t even getting into the fact that communists from within the party are openly critical of some of the directions it’s going
https://orinocotribune.com/communist-party-of-venezuela-expresses-solidarity-with-far-right-politician-maria-corina-machado/
< The spokesperson for the PCV dissidents, Henry Parra, indicated that the current leadership does not hold up to the political project of the organization, alleging that the leadership of the PCV coincides with the postulates of the ultra-right wing that has been in charge of “oppressing” the Venezuelan people.“We are an anti-imperialist political project, but today, the policy of this party is coinciding with the policy of oppression that [the imperialists] have against our people,” stated Parra. “We condemn, from an organic and political point of view, the political leadership that they have been influencing our communist party with, to approach the ultra-right view.”
https://orinocotribune.com/venezuelas-dissident-communist-leader-pcvs-oscar-figuera-moved-to-the-right/why doesn’t Ben go out of his way to point this out as opposed to opportunistically brushing the communist party as a whole?
No.1607073
>>1607060Again
< <The region is a staging-ground for great-power conflict, with the US maintaining a presence in the region with the objective of cutting Iran’s land route through Syria to Lebanon and the Mediterranean. Iranian militias are heavily present along the west bank of the Euphrates in Deir ez-Zor, while Russia keeps a lower profile.
<Like the oil fields in Kurdish regions, oil fields in Deir ez-Zor are exclusively controlled by the AANES, with the revenues used across all regions of NES to provide infrastructure and humanitarian services, pay salaries, and fund the defense of NES against ISIS, Turkey and other aggressors. This status quo is unlikely to change.
>but they’re stealing the oil Again, don’t care. Rojava still controls the oil fields not the US and the only people it can sell oil to is Syria herself
>so they’re stealing oil to sell it back to Syria how is that fairAgain look up “the Arab belt”.
No.1607074
>>1607063Tbqh I don't think the Syrian government is happy about a majority Kurdish autonomous region within its borders. They're tolerating them for now because they don't have the ability to get rid of them without causing another civil war. I think the most ironic thing about the discourse around Rojava and its intersection with the multipolarist-ultra divide is that Rojava itself is a prime example of how multipolarity can help socialist forces grow stronger. Rojava's internal politics are undoubtedly progressive, and while they have all kinds of features I would consider right wing deviations, something like that would still be a vast improvement over the status quo.
With this in mind we should remember that they've only able to accomplish this by carving out a geopolitical niche, navigating the web of contradictions between Damascus, the US, Russia, Iran, and Turkey. In other words, they've established a quasi-socialist polity by exploiting the divisions between a multiplicity of non-socialist powers. The fact that each of these powers have their own agendas and can be played off against one another is precisely what has allowed the PYD to get as far as they have. This is exactly the kind of thing that Z gang and co say they want to get out of a multipolar world, and its exactly the kind of thing ultras say won't work. And yet, it's Z gang who are the most hostile to this real world example of multipolarity benefitting a socialist project, while ultras are the most sympathetic.
No.1607083
>>1607054Yeah damn it’s not like there’s an investigation being conducted bu the AANES that Syria was hiring mercenaries to try and agitate Arab tribes to dismantle their project… oh wait…
https://anfenglishmobile.com/rojava-syria/operation-security-reinforcement-in-deir-ez-zor-successfully-completed-69213 No.1607089
>>1607086It's a bad thing, but the question is whether their mere presence has caused Rojava to lose all agency, which it hasn't. Certainly it's hard to argue that direct armed conflict with a NATO member is something America wants.
>inb4 Turkey is a good NATO member actually No.1607097
>>1607073>arab belt>1962 to 1976oh ok, i guess it's ok that in 2020 they were stealing syrian oil with american companies…
No.1607107
>>1607074My issue is anon that it exists if the Syrian government likes it or not and the only realistic thing to do at this point is to de-escelate and slowly move forward on the path to normalisation and getting along.
This can't happen when the Syrian government are sending or letting rebels use their part of the land as as a staging area for terroristic attacks in the region and will only destroy any small trust which has been built over the recent years.
It is just a loss for everyone and that is sad.
No.1607116
>>1607097>Russia sells its oil to Europe to fuel its war in Ukraine<OMG BASED>Venezuela sells its oil to the US to undo the economic damage of sanctions<OMG BASED>Rojava sells its oil to the West to fund a war against a NATO member<NOOO WTF THIS IS UNACCEPTABLETell me Anon, do you oppose the Western sanctions on Syria? Of course you do. So tell me, who would they be selling their oil to if the sanctions were lifted?
>>1607107>the only realistic thing to do at this point is to de-escelate and slowly move forward on the path to normalisation and getting alongI would agree. If anything a reconciliation between the two would be the fastest way to strengthen the anti-American elements in the PYD, get the remaining US forces out, and secure Syria's territorial integrity. It's clear that Rojava has only failed to entirely cut ties with the US because they want insurance against Turkey and Damascus. If they were to squash their beef with the latter then there would be no need for this. Hostility from the Syrian government is only going to invite more US involvement, not less.
No.1607124
>>1607116>>Russia sells its oil to Europe to fuel its war in UkraineNATO provoked the conflict and the oil is russia's
>>Venezuela sells its oil to the US to undo the economic damage of sanctionsvenezuela didn't ask to be sanctioned and the oil is venezuela's
>>Rojava sells its oil to the West to fund a war against a NATO membersyria is not a NATO member and they're helping the NATO boss 'merica occupy syria
as for turkey they're also occupying syria ;^)>Tell me Anon, do you oppose the Western sanctions on Syria?yes
>So tell me, who would they be selling their oil to if the sanctions were lifted?china and other countries in asia mostly, latin america too
No.1607126
>>1607116>>1607124 (me)
i misread that last part as "who would they be selling their oil to if they didn't occupy it"
if the sanctions were lifted: america and europe, no problem there IMO since the oil is syria's
No.1607127
>>1607116>reconciliation Yea, that's the word i was searching for. lol.
Certainly, I agree completely. I think it really cannot be understated that Turkey's goals in the region are genocidal, any assurance against that is prudent and having the head country of NATO nominally on-side when it is a NATO member with NATO equipment trying to genocide seems at least to me like an insane thing to pass up for ideological purity.
>>1607097>were stealing syrian oilI'm sorry but this is so insanely spooked. It is not Syrian Government oil because it is not their land anymore… A child would understand this wtf is wrong with ya?
No.1607129
>>1607127is guantanamo bay cuba's? is america occupying parts of cuba right now?
if so, why aren't regions of occupied syria syria's?
No.1607135
>>1607129The US does not claim to own GitMo… Their claim is that it is rented, not sovereign US land..
No.1607137
>>1607124>syria is not a NATO memberTurkey is, and they have a much larger presence in Syria than the US does. Unlike the US, which has a few hundred troops in a region controlled by an actor that Damascus has recognized as a partner, Turkey has straight up invaded Syria and occupied it with their thousands of own troops and ISIS mercenaries.
>>1607126>if the sanctions were lifted: america and europe, no problem there IMO since the oil is syria'sSo then why do you have a problem with Rojava doing what the Syrian government would be doing anyway? If anything they've found a loophole in the sanctions and are using it to fund a war against a NATO member. Why is this a bad thing?
>>1607129Syrian Kurds aren't foreigners, they aren't a foreign army occupying part of Syria. They're Syrians who were forced to take up their own self-defence when the Syrian government left the region to fend for itself against jihadist terrorists.
No.1607140
>>1607135>burger legal technicalityand you call me spooked
do you think america would just let cuba retake guantanamo if they tried? they do consider it their territory
>>1607137>Syrian Kurds aren't foreignersand this matters because…?
they're still occupying syria with america's backing
>they aren't a foreign army occupying part of Syriathey are an army occupying territory of the syrian government with the help of a foreign army
i don't know why we need to add the foreign element to it but lol>They're Syrians who were forced to take up their own self-defence when the Syrian government left the region to fend for itself against jihadist terrorists.that's a bit reductive fam but that's a whole different convo about the conflict -_-
No.1607143
>>1607127Deir ez-Zor majority - arabs disagree, they want turks and americans gone. Guess whos against it.
No.1607144
>>1607140>do you think america would just let cuba retake guantanamo if they tried? they do consider it their territoryWell done. you are finally learning how ownership works.
Fucking 'rightful hair' spooked idiots. why are we even entertaining this line?
No.1607145
>>1607143>Deir ez-Zor majority - arabs disagree,Prove it.
No.1607148
>>1607140>they're still occupying syria with america's backingIt matters because you can't "occupy" your home country or community, such a thing is obviously not comparable to Gitmo. You might as well say that the Syrian government is "occupying" the country as well, and like Rojava they're doing it with the help of foreign powers.
>that's a bit reductive fam but that's a whole different convo about the conflictYeah well idk what exactly you're expecting the SDF to do. Should they have just sat around and been murdered by ISIS when the SAA pulled out? Should they just give up all the gains they fought and bled for because Damascus is the "recognized" (nice legalist spooks lmao) government of Syria? Would you expect the Syrian government to do something like that? Obviously not. Rojava is leveraging the natural resources of the territories they fought for and liberated from ISIS to circumnavigate Western sanctions and fight a war against a NATO member. I see absolutely no reason why I should view this as a bad thing because of legal formalities which I know you don't really believe in anyway.
No.1607152
>>1607145https://cadmus.eui.eu/bitstream/handle/1814/52824/RPR_2018_02_Eng.pdf?sequence=4&isAllowed=y>Ethnic Arabs make up 90% of the population of Deir al-Zor governorate, the vast majority of them Sunnis. A small minority converted to Shiism beginning from the 1980s, a community that does not exceed 5,000 members according to the highest estimates. There is a Christian minority with deeper historical roots, which according to 2010 estimates numbers around 1,000 members.Its on the news for a while already.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/09/15/northern-syria-arab-kurdish-isis-sdf-turkey-russia/Guess this is not true "national liberation" and "autonomy" if it is not under the burgers or their SDF puppets umbrella.
No.1607154
>>1607144yeah we get it bro, it's le spook, you're probably euphoric rn
but if you're going to say it's rojava's territory and they're in the right to take the oil to fight NATO or whatever don't act surprised when i flip the argument on it's head to say it's syria's and that they're stealing it with the same justification
>>1607148>It matters because you can't "occupy" your home country or communityis it "their community"? would be curious to know if people in syria agree to having groups of "their community" working with the
foreign troops that are (as we both agree, at least on this point) occupying the country to syphon off resources while at the same time imposing sanctions on the population
No.1607156
>>1607152…You retard I mean prove they 'disaggree'….
How could you possibly think i meant 'prove Arabs live there'?
How dumb you people are amazes me more every day.
>but if you're going to say it's rojava's territory and they're in the right to take the oil to fight NATO or whatever don't act surprised when i flip the argumentYou are not 'flipping the argument' because nobody is saying that you pseud. It is their territory because they hold conrol over it, nobody is talking about 'the right to' anything except you, you actual schizo lmao.
No.1607163
>>1607156Maybe read the damn links, you moron? Self Administration failed because PYD dont give a shit about arab locals and basically formed a closed vertical structure for the sake of “civilisation of Kurdistan”. And now it's finally failing because they are openly acting as an occupying force. The “Democratic Federalism of Rojava - Northern Syria” my ass.
No.1607167
>>1607163https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/deir-ezzor-trapped-between-corrupt-local-leaders-and-external-governance>the recommendations and demands of the local Arab Deir Ezzor community in those discussions have been reasonable and have often responded to policy imperatives articulated by the United States.Very anti american indeed
No.1607169
>>1607163Your first link is a 23-page booklet, i am not reading all that to see if there is the proof you are claiming to provide, if you cannot quote it and instead have to quote only about the demographics that is your problem.
Your second link is paywalled but refereed to the deir ez-zor attacks of earlier in the last couple of months, which were explicitly not about the Arab Majority.
Seems to me you are trying to establish that deir Ez-zor is majority arab and then using slight of handing to try to create an false image that the recent conflicts in Ez-zor was those arabs rising up against the SDF, depite us both knowing that it has no basis in reality you are attempting to build that assumption in readers minds.
You should get better at propaganda anon you are not good at it… Although, tbf i guess an anonymous forum is the best place to practice.
No.1607176
>>1607156>nobody is saying that you pseudok bro,
>>1607052 gives a similar justification:
<you seize what you can in a Revolution in order to create said revolutionary societyand
>>1607116 is word for word what i wrote:
<Rojava sells its oil to the West to fund a war against a NATO memberbut yeah no one said it!!! and im a spooked dumb pseud! IM SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No.1607182
>>1606942for us non-/isg/tards, which part of this are we supposed to be crying about lol
No.1607193
>>1607074
>With this in mind we should remember that they've only able to accomplish this by carving out a geopolitical niche, navigating the web of contradictions between Damascus, the US, Russia, Iran, and Turkey. In other words, they've established a quasi-socialist polity by exploiting the divisions between a multiplicity of non-socialist powers.You forgot the Saudis.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/arab-tribes-and-saudi-influence-northeastern-syria
>Saudi Arabia haslikewise worked since mid-2018 to strengthen its ties with the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) to develop the Arab presence in the area and counter Iranian influence. Its leadership has focused on growing tribal involvement in the SDF, helping to incorporate a significant number of tribal members into the SDF with the objective of maintaining a base level of influence in Syria and to use the Kurdish issue to pressure Turkey. The Kingdom has also provided financial backing for the SDF and funded infrastructure projects in areas under the SDF’s control. In late 2019, Riyadh provided 100 million USD for SDF and some tribal representatives with the goal of furthering cooperation with the Syrian Democratic Forces.
>Saudi Minister of State Thamer al-Sabhan visited the area and met with leading Arab and Kurdish figures. A delegation from the SDF also visited Saudi Arabia on November 25, 2019 at the official invitation of the Saudi government, according to sources close to the SDF. The SDF delegation included both civilian and military leaders and discussions focused on ways to support the development of SDF-controlled territories as well as improving ties between Kurds and Arabs there.
>Some reports also indicate the Saudis are trying to strengthen ties with the tribes in this region because the Turkish involvement in the eastern Euphrates region makes the allegiance of residents of the area to Saudi interests more important. The tribes have continually opposed forced displacement operations carried out by the SDF against residents as well as the razing of some Arab villages in the area. They have a clear stance against the involvement of the SDF in the region, which is similar to the position of the Arab majority in the upper Euphrates region in Syria.
>The tribal sheikhs and leaders of Raqqa, al-Tabqah, and Deir ez-Zour have called upon residents affiliated with the SDF to withdraw from the area. They have also emphasized the importance of sending a message to the international community to put pressure on the SDF to respond to their demands. Protesters have accused the SDF of stealing the region’s resources and spending them on military operations instead. They have also demonstrated against corruption and looting, which are an understood feature of the Autonomous Administration’s institutions and its military branches. No.1607205
>>1607154>would be curious to know if people in syria agree to having groups of "their community" working with the foreign troops that are (as we both agree, at least on this point) occupying the country to syphon off resources while at the same time imposing sanctions on the populationWould you ask that question about the Russian and Iranian troops helping the Syrian government?
No.1607209
>>1607074That is cause Z-gang only wants Russia to sustitute the US.
No.1607212
>>1607107>the only realistic thing to do at this point is to de-escelate and slowly move forward on the path to normalisation and getting along.That's like a fancoist Spain gettign along with a Republican Spain. Everything Rojava represents is hated by all the religious extremist countries that surround it, including Israel. The only hope is for a socialist power in the future to support Rojava in liberating the rest of Turkey and Syria.
No.1607216
>>1607169<Challenges facing the Self Administration in Deir al-Zor <The communities living under SDF control in Deir al-Zor suffer from deep-seated fatigue stemming from what they have experienced in recent years. Long, multi-layered conflicts involving multiple actors and different sectors of society have sapped the population’s energy, and have robbed it of its power and its elites. This means that the local communities will not challenge the Self Administration’s political, social and cultural project, the aim of which, according to Administration officials, is to establish an autonomous region called the Federation of Northern Syria. However, the project may yet find itself facing numerous challenges in the short and long term in Deir al-Zor governorate.<The first of these is the very concept of Self Administration autonomous administration, which is characterised by its Kurdish identity and its ideological content. While this concept may be by fully supported by Kurdish figures of influence in their communities, it will represent a stumbling-block for efforts to ensure active participation from elites and leading figures within Deir al-Zor, whose population is 99% Arab.<Secondly, the enormous cultural differences between the social model the PYD is looking to implement – through educational and legal initiatives – and the traditional, conservative local community in Deir al-Zor, represent a major challenge to the success of the Self Administration. The model the PYD is following ignores the Arab heritage shared by almost a third of the population within the borders of the proposed Federation, and instead explicitly discusses the “civilisation of Kurdistan”. Likewise, if the Self Administration continues to overlook, in both its written publications and its oral discourse, the importance of the uprising against the regime, it will drive a further wedge between itself and those who led the uprising in Deir al-Zor, one of the revolution’s strongholds.<Thirdly, the Self Administration has limited options in its search for capable and influential local partners: its late arrival on the scene means that intellectual and economic elites, as well as influential figures in general, have fixed political positions, or else have settled in countries of asylum. The strength of the cohesion and belonging felt by Arabs fighting in the ranks of the SDF has not yet been put to the test, and neither fighting side-by-side in a united front against IS, nor support from the US, are necessarily enough to build a true sense of allegiance and belonging. Any failure by the Self Administration to establish a network of influential and locally-accepted partners will likely be a point of severe weakness when it comes to combatting the ongoing influence of IS, which has experience and strong understanding of the dynamics of the local community. The group has also likely achieved great influence over the thousands of children and youths who were subjected to its proselytism and education over the course of its three-year rule.<Finally, the threat posed by loyal networks that the regime created within the SDF and local communities will increase, as through these networks the regime will be able to destabilise the region and provoke further crises. Well, thats good SDF trying to go full cooperate with DEMC, right?
<The sheikh of the “Akidat” tribe, Ibrahim Khalil Al-Hafel, said that the clans’ movement in the countryside of Deir ez-Zor Governorate was not for the sake of the leader of the Deir ez-Zor Military Council, but rather to restore the rights of the people of the governorate that had been taken away by the so-called “ Syrian Democratic Forces ” (SDF), stressing “This movement is considered a tribal uprising to restore legitimate and stolen rights.”<Al-Hafel added, in an exclusive interview with Al-Araby Al-Jadeed, that the beginning of the movement was not widespread, “but the SDF’s arrest and besiegement of the women and children of the leaders of the Deir ez-Zor Military Council,” who are from the Arab component, and its attempt to dominate the council and take complete control of Deir ez-Zor was “provocative to the tribesmen.” In addition to the previous transgressions and accumulations and the “racist practices” of the “SDF” in the region and their “fabricating charges and creating scarecrows” of the existence of terrorist organizations among the clans with the aim of convincing the coalition and using them as “an excuse to implement their agendas”https://www.alaraby.co.uk/politics/%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B9%D9%83%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D9%84%D9%80%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%AF-%D9%85%D8%A7-%D9%8A%D8%AD%D8%AF%D8%AB-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B2%D9%88%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AA%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B6%D8%A9-%D8%B9%D8%B4%D8%A7%D8%A6%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%A9I bet that SDF/YPD will play muh ISIS or muh Assad card and ask US troops to stomp tribesmen.
No.1607230
>>1606825These people smear Aaron because his reporting on chemical weapons in Syria is unassailable and the false flags are a keystone of US foreign policy.
No.1607235
>>1607227What an interestingly named group, I wonder what they have to say about the Ukraine :^)
No.1607236
>>1607216>gets rid of a corrupt leader<nooo this is an assault on the whole Arabs of deir ez-zor!!!!<terrorits?! criminals and drug dealers?!?! noo they are just ARAB TRIBES who DINDU NOTHING!!!Lmao lol. This is so laughable you sound like a Turk, so dripping with insincerity.
I feel foolish to have wasted any time on such a dishonest person. I am glad that you people are so divorced from reality you will never convince anyone but roaches at least.
No.1607238
It literally says on Roy Singham's own page that his father was a Maoist. So YPG flag anon wants everyone to believe that The Grayzone getting funding from the descendent of a Maoist who supports anti imperialist causes is the same thing as Wall St funding an organisation.
LOL that's enough of this thread for me YPG flag is a fucking retard and all it took to prove it was one post
No.1607241
>>1607205russia and iran aren't placing sanctions on syria
i don't think russia needs or is looking to get syria's oil, i doubt iran has the capacity to even if they wanted
No.1607242
>>1607236>>1607216I'm not one to uncritically defend everything the SDF does or discount the possibility of anti-Arab chauvinism, but weren't rural Arab tribespeople one of the demographics that supported ISIS most enthusiastically?
No.1607247
>>1607241So you're saying that it would be better not to circumnavigate the sanctions? Again, it makes no sense to denounce the sanctions at one moment and then denounce Rojava for finding a way through them. You talk about them "siphoning off resources while at the same time imposing sanctions of the population", but these two things are mutually exclusive. Either they are buying the resources or they are preventing them from being sold, they can't be doing both.
No.1607248
>>1607236This turkroach business is one of the reason I don't fuck with Kurds and their strange White stans. Shit's weird. I don't really like taking sides in some random race war on the other side of the world.
No.1607252
>>1607248Imagine if people were saying the kiks every time they talk about Israel. You'd be like, this guy is sus.
No.1607253
>>1606940>Grey-zone being anti-communist which is still a position i maintainmost news sites are anti-communist that doesn't make the reporting of facts suddenly false. you have to look at for allegations and claims by anonymous officials to find that part
No.1607255
>>1607247>finding a way through the sanctionsthat's the most dishonest framing possible lol
how is it "circumventing sanctions" to take control of the territory and extract resources with the help of the same entities placing the sanctions?
the syrian government certaintly doesn't see it as "finding a way through" the sanctions, they openly state they believe it's stealing
No.1607257
>>1607255>how is it "circumventing sanctions" to take control of the territory and extract resources with the help of the same entities placing the sanctions?How is it not? If the point of the sanctions is to prevent Syria from exporting its oil, then the fact that Rojava is exempt from this means there is a gap in the sanctions. If the US were to stop buying it then that would mean closing this gap and tightening the embargo. So once again it makes no sense to denounce the sanctions while simultaneously calling for them to be tightened.
No.1607259
>>1607252>Imagine if people were saying the kiks every time they talk about Israel. You'd be like, this guy is sus.Not really anon, no, that is not reality.
No serious person sits down and says to Palestinians and such that they are suspicious and that 'no, you cannot be mean to -jews- you must specify zionists' if it was a word used against jews rather than turks, they accept it as the rhetoric it is.
You are being disingenuous.
No.1607263
<Russia in the capitalist world order
>One historical memory needs to be erased: Russia is not any kind of superpower. It is not the Soviet Union, having barely half the population of the old USSR. In raw terms of economic output, it is a middle power in economic terms, its nominal GDP putting it in a group that includes Brazil, Italy, India, Canada and Australia.
>Russia has the world's second-largest nuclear arsenal, but these weapons are unusable except at the cost of self-annihilation. Meanwhile, the country's conventional military strength is dramatically inferior to that of NATO. Russian military spending is only about one-tenth of the NATO aggregate.
>Nor, to recall Lenin's list of the defining markers of imperialism, is Russia home to an 'advanced capitalism'. Labour productivity is much lower than in the West. And importantly, the ethos and practices of business life in Russia differ sharply from those generally found in the world's leading imperialist states. In the latter, there are plenty of capitalists who view sticking to the law as strictly for losers, but the local capitalism nevertheless provides reasonably predictable conditions for investment and capital accumulation. In Russia's violent, awesomely corrupt 'Jurassic capitalism', things are different.
>Amid these circumstances, most Russians do not live well. Average living standards are about those of Malaysia. There is no broad Russian middle class; in the comparatively prosperous year of 2013, the bulk of Russian citizens had monthly incomes in the range from US$300 to $800. Russian life expectancy in 2014 was lower than the figures for Honduras and Iraq. In one respect, the forms of Russian capitalism might seem to resemble those found in the West: the Russian economy is highly monopolised, with most sectors dominated by a handful of relatively large firms. But the reasons for this are tied closely to the heritage from the Soviet past. They also reflect the primitivism of Russian business life. Facing the balaclava-clad hitmen of larger rivals and the rulings of bribed judges, middle-sized firms in Russia do not thrive.
>Meanwhile, Russian monopolies in most cases are rather small by world standards. Poorly equipped to operate away from their home turf, they rarely seek to expand abroad. There are few real Russian multinationals.
>Resource-extractive firms ‒ and those, such as metals refiners, that turn raw resources into basic industrial goods ‒ have a dominant place in Russia's economy. Since capitalism was restored in Russia and the country was thrown open to world trade, science-intensive manufacturing has been gutted. Russia today sells its oil, gas, metals, chemicals, timber and paper on world markets, and imports vehicles, machinery, technical services and a broad range of consumer goods.
>That adds up to a pattern of production and trade very unlike the forms typical of advanced capitalism. With its relatively undiversified output and dependence on low value-added generic commodities, Russia's de-developed petrostate economy competes with numerous peripheral country rivals at the low-profit end of global markets.
No.1607266
>>1607257>>1607258>who are the kurds exporting to?Kind of curious about this too actually. Is there even any mechinisms for finding out where oil actually ends up?
No.1607267
>>1607259Not at all if you called Israelis Kikkkes you'd get banned immediately here.
No.1607280
>>1607263>>1607264If Russia is really a weak semi peripheral country they have no hope of winning a war against Ukraine and NATO so it makes this invasion even dumber because it will end up breaking up the country and reinforcing the western imperialist bloc.
No.1607281
>>1607263<Over-accumulation?
>Nor is there an imperialist-style surplus of capital in Russia. If there were, huge natural resources would not lie undeveloped. For lack of investment funds, the present average age of Russian industrial equipment is roughly twice that in the U.S., and double the figure at the end of the Soviet period. Large surpluses are still extracted from the value created by Russia's long-suffering workers.
>It should, in any case, be stressed that simply exporting capital does not qualify a country as imperialist. All capital must seek to expand, and if foreign openings seem safer and more lucrative, peripheral-country capitalists will often invest abroad. The key criteria that distinguish the foreign investing of imperialist countries include those of scale and of whether the investor country benefits in any appreciable way from the imperialist transfer of value from the developing world.
>On both these criteria, Russia falls far short. The often-cited investment by Russian mining corporations in Africa, for example, is trivial beside the activity in developing countries of those legendary resource imperialists, Canada and Australia. The transfer of developing-world value to Russia as a result of the country's foreign direct investment is minor – and nowhere near enough to offset the plunder of Russian wealth via the 'value siphon' of unequal trade exchange.
>For the political economists of the early twentieth century, a defining feature of imperialism was finance capital ‒ the complex of banking and industrial capital that, chafing within the confines of the national state, enlisted politicians and armies in its drive to dominate foreign markets. A mass of evidence shows that in terms of the financial instruments ‒ stocks, bonds, derivatives, bank deposits, money-market funds ‒in which wealth is mostly held within modern capitalism, the finance capital of present-day Russia is startlingly weak.
<A part of the semi-periphery
>Much more could be said, but the pattern is unmistakeable: Russia's economy and society display few or none of the markers of imperialism. On the other hand, the country provides a close match with lesser powers. Within the capitalist world-system, Russia's closest analogues are those relatively developed – but clearly not imperialist ‒ middle-ranking powers, Brazil and India.
>Meanwhile, are Russian interests taken into account when the rules of the game of the capitalist world-system are determined? By no means. For years after the dissolving of the USSR, Russian elites held out hopes of joining NATO. Instead, NATO has been expanded to the point where Russia now faces a threatening arc of U.S.-aligned states, on or near its borders, from Turkey to Estonia. The clear goal of imperialist policy is to pressure and intimidate Russia, so as to deepen its peripheralisation and in the longer perspective, to force its break-up.
>In these circumstances, what can one say about the Western denunciations of 'Russian imperialism'? Rarely have such fervent protestations been so wide of the mark, or backed by so little substance.
>Ruling elites in non-imperialist countries may well be driven by material ambition when they mount acts of international aggression. But a fundamental distinction needs to be drawn between these adventures, which for all their brutality have a quality of arbitrariness, and the imperatives to expansion that are innate to advanced capitalism. Lesser elites have a choice in how they act externally. The capitalist classes of the global centre, ultimately, do not.
>If the political left fails to apply rigorous economic and social criteria to identifying imperialist countries, it loses the ability to distinguish between imperialism and its victims. Understanding the modern world then becomes impossible ‒ and vulgar political errors inevitably follow.https://newcoldwar.org/perpetrator-or-victim-russia-and-contemporary-imperialism/ No.1607284
>>1607242That's not the point, YPG the have no right to seize the power and resourses in 90% arab region under SDF face, act like local police force in their backyard and still retain moral highground as "democratic government". Also, instant "turkroach" screeching really amuses me, those goofballs smells like typical muh commie kurdish battle waifu simps. I prefer turks to fuck off from syria, so as burgerland and their pet kurd nationalists militia fuck off from Deir ez-Zor.
No.1607285
>>1607267Sure bro lmao. It's not like because of a very specific thing happened to the jews to create this..
Are you going to kvetch about americans being called burgers, filthy and pigs too?
About Brits being called pedophiles and ham sandwiches?
So disingenuous lol.
No.1607290
>>1607069From what I can tell, Ben Norton did exactly that. He called into question the leadership of the party. I think you need to be more generous to the points of the other anon. If you try to cancel Ben for some stupid niche shit, you might as well cancel all socialists because no socialist is pure and perfect, starting with yourself that engages in these purity purges, a liberal vestige ;)
No.1607294
>>1607285I'm just saying how your posts come off.
No.1607296
>>1607284>YPG the have no right to seize the power and resourses in 90% arab region under SDF faceYou guys are always resorting to legalistic spookery when it comes to this issue, shit which I know you don't believe because you would never apply it against a government you like, or in favour of one you dislike. The Tsar was the "legitimate" government of Russia, but you wouldn't attack the Bolsheviks on that basis. Legally speaking, Russia had no "right" to invade Ukraine, but no self-respecting multipolarista would give a shit, nor should they. I don't think communists should put much stock in such abstractions. Rojava are acting in their interests, they are doing it because they can. The only question is to what extent those interests are opposed to those of the progressive tasks at hand in Syria (e.g. national liberation, anti-imperialism), or alternatively to what degree they can be brought in line with those tasks. Now I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Rojava's interests at the current moment are 100% aligned with those of Syrian national liberation, but they aren't 100% opposed either, and to the extent that they are opposed, I contend that this could be rectified via a reconciliation with Damascus. In regards to the oil issue specifically, I fail to see how exactly this is hurting Syria as a country.
Also, if you carefully read the article posted here
>>1607216 it specifically mentions that a point of contention with the tribal Arab population in Deir al-Zor is that they,
<overlook, in both its written publications and its oral discourse, the importance of the uprising against the regime, it will drive a further wedge between itself and those who led the uprising in Deir al-Zor, one of the revolution’s strongholds. In other words it almost sounds like one of the grievances causing this tension is that the SDF are not perceived to be sufficiently anti-Assad.
>>1607258>who are the kurds exporting toThe US and/or Europe presumably.
>who's getting the money?According to
>>1607193 it's going to fund the SDF's military operations, which are primarily directed against Turkey and ISIS remnants.
No.1607300
>>1607296>>1607284Just to clarify so as to avoid any misunderstanding, that article is saying that the Arabs currently beefing with the SDF in Deir al-Zor are angry at the Kurds for not being anti-Assad enough, that they aren't giving enough "importance to the uprising against the [Assad] regime."
No.1607303
>>1607299>so its not a way around the sanctionsHow is it not? If Syria were able to export its oil, wouldn't it be good for them to use it to drive out the Turkish occupiers? So why is it bad when the SDF does exactly the same thing?
No.1607305
Ben Norton accuses communists of siding with fascists and imperialists because they have a class analysis, he's not unpure or imperfect, he's just a libshit.
No.1607306
>>1607303>wouldn't it be good for them to use it to drive out the Turkish occupiers?yes
>So why is it bad when the SDF does exactly the same thing?because
they are also occupiers No.1607310
>>1607305Are you informed on the issue?
No.1607316
>>1607303Trying to frame the ISIS remants and local criminals as some kind of Arab Tribal resistance is still inherently disingenuous.
To me, aside the turkish framing of 'kurds vs arabs' in deir ez-zor, this still makes zero sense, as fighters came from the Syrian side of the river and the claim from the SDF is that Abu Khawla was working partially with the Syrian government.
Maybe i'm dumb or misunderstanding but this position all comes across as incoherent.
>>1607305Feels like people forget here a lot that these people are not communists or leftists, they are 'anti-imperialists' first and so share a fundimentaly different world view to us, seeing the world instead of 'imperial states vs anti-imperialist states' dichotomy.
No.1607348
>>1607337>their own homeland👻
No.1607349
>>1607348If you aren't going to distinguish between foreign invaders and local people when you throw the term "occupier" around then the word loses all meaning.
No.1607354
>>1607312That doesn't answer the question…
No.1607356
>>1606536>https://twitter.com/Marusya_161/status/1446452768831643650Why are you linking dead links? Or did it die in the last 16 hours?
No.1607360
>>1606592>(if the tweet is deleted, use other links)I don't even get it, where and why did you have this link saved just so you could drop dead links on us? Do you have it in a google doc or somewhere lol?
>>1606767>dead link and it's not archived anywhere, very cool anfem, thanksI really don't get it. Gotta be one of the weirdest leftypol users and that's saying something.
No.1607364
>>1606781A GSAF is not "funded by Goldman Sachs." It's a financial services account. You don't know anything about banking. The money came from an Indian tech guy with left-wing politics who sold his business and made a lot of money out of it. Also good job quoting India's far-right government trying to bring down a communist website.
I'm checking out of geopolitics now because it is getting too esoteric for me and nobody seems to be having an easy time formulating a viewpoint more coherent than "war does suck, huh."
No.1607374
>>1607281>Russia's economy and society display few or none of the markers of imperialism>clearly not imperialist >If the political left fails to apply rigorous economic and social criteria to identifying imperialist countries…wew lad, don't mind if I do
<Russia<its monopolies make up 60%-70% of its economy<it has a financial oligarchy<it is a net exporter of capital<it is a part of the UN and BRICs in which both can considered be groups of capitalist countries that include other imperialist powers (USA and China)<It invaded Ukraine and annexed portions of the country showing that it has interests in creating its own territorial divisions in the world<also has the fifth largest army and is packed to the tits with nukesNot to mention the super exploitation it does to other countries such as Uzbekistan (Russian investment is around 56% there counter that with the fact that the average Uzbek wage is around a quarter to the average Russian wage).
Russia is imperialist. Nowhere nearly as big as the US but imperialist nonetheless.
Why you gotta lie campist scumbags? Just accept what you are, ie campist scumbags!
No.1607393
>>1607380So "campism" and "anti-americanism" are totally cool with you?
No.1607455
>>1607263>muh unequal development>t-they're not as advancedSee
>>1606535 No.1607502
<Syrian Kurds accuse Turkey of violations, Russia says peace plan on track
<The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) accused Turkey on Thursday of launching a large land offensive targeting three villages in northeast Syria despite a truce, but Russia said a peace plan hammered out this week was going ahead smoothly.
<Under the plan, agreed by Presidents Tayyip Erdogan and Vladimir Putin, Syrian Kurdish forces are to withdraw more than 30 km (19 miles) from the Turkish border, a goal Russia’s RIA news agency, quoting an SDF official, said was already achieved.
<The deal agreed with Putin, which builds on and widens a previous U.S.-brokered ceasefire, helped end the fighting.
<Russia, a close ally of President Bashar al-Assad that has emerged as the key geopolitical player in Syria, has begun deploying military police near the Turkish border as part of the deal agreed on Tuesday in the Russian city of Sochi.
<“Everything is being implemented,” Interfax news agency quoted Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Vershinin as saying.
<RIA, citing an SDF official, said the Kurdish fighters had already withdrawn to 32 km (20 miles) away from the border. It also said the Kurds were ready to discuss joining the Syrian army once the crisis in Syria had been settled politically.
<Russia will send a further 276 military police officers and 33 units of military hardware to Syria in a week, RIA news agency cited a Defence Ministry source as saying. It also quoted Russia’s Defence Ministry as saying Russian military police had patrolled along a new 60-km (37-mile) route on the border.https://www.reuters.com/article/syria-security-idUKKBN1X319A No.1607507
>>1607502I have trouble believing Russia is capable of maintaining a peace plan between Turkey and a country they wish to bully after what happened with Armenia.
No.1607519
>>1607502Is this supposed to be a bad thing?
<article from 2019A lot has changed in the past 4 years since then.
Turkey continues to fund mercenaries and conduct terrorist ops- something, again, which the AANES (in collaboration with the arab tribes that they are so-called "opressing" is capable of handling themselves nowadays, as pointed out here:
https://anfenglishmobile.com/rojava-syria/manbij-military-council-52-mercenaries-were-killed-102-others-injured-69240https://anfenglishmobile.com/rojava-syria/operation-security-reinforcement-in-deir-ez-zor-successfully-completed-69213that's not even getting into the fact that Turkey goes back on its statements and treaties.
https://anfenglishmobile.com/rojava-syria/sohr-turkish-border-guards-killed-and-injured-nearly-65-syrians-since-early-2023-69477>>1607507>I have trouble believing russia is capable of maintaining a peace plan between turkey given how turkey regularly attacks, you're right to be skeptical.
No.1607541
The fascist class traitor Putin belongs dangling from the end of a rope rather than in a portrait being admired.
No.1607546
>>1607541>class traitor putinhe's bourgois
though No.1607576
>>1606767>>1606769>The People's Forum receives money from goldman sachsDude, why are you repeating anti-communist propaganda? Why is it a bad thing for us communists that a billionaire is committing class suicide by giving money to orgs like Codepink and the People's Forum, who very clearly wish to abolish billionaires? Do you want the people to win? Or do you wish to remain defeated, poor, unorganized, and "pure" in your theory? Because the rest of us would like very much for the people to win, and for there to be trained, capable leaders among the people who know how to win.
The TPF is teaching people Marxism-Leninism and exposing the contradictions of imperialist capitalism. What exactly have you done for the people's movement? Do you think that an anti-imperialist movement can function without money? Do you think operations like this can subsist in the middle of the belly of the beast, in New York City, with only spare change? Are you nuts? How do you think TPF has accomplished so much in a mere five years? Does it upset your purity fetish that the Grayzone and TPF receives money with which to conduct operations? Even the Black Panthers needed money and had wealthy benefactors…
https://www.liberationnews.org/journalists-or-witch-hunters-examining-the-new-york-times-shameful-red-scare-history/https://youtu.be/G4-OAwIQHxk No.1607577
<Of particular concern to the United States should be the increasingly apparent signs of potential convergence between the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF)—Washington’s partner in the war against the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS)—and the Assad regime’s chief sponsor, Russia.
<The Kurdish People’s Protection Units (YPG) has a history of opportunistically working with the Assad regime. Underscoring this point, a Kurdish YPG general told this author that following recent developments, “There are many things that we are working on with the Syrian regime and Russia. In the future, there will be great success between us.”
<YPG leadership is said to be reassessing the strategic importance of its ties with what is an increasingly unreliable Washington, and is looking to further diversify its portfolio of international partners, with an eye toward strengthening ties with Russia.
<The YPG struck a deal with Russia and the Assad regime allowing them to move their forces into areas previously under Kurdish control to deter Turkey and its Syrian National Army proxy forces from pressing further into territory east of the Euphrates.
<The SDF’s political wing has confirmed, that it is engaged in discussions with Moscow over the terms of any future reconciliation with the Assad regime.
<Ultimately, it was the US abandonment in October 2019 of the SDF and its accompanying ‘astrategic approach’ toward areas east of the Euphrates, and indeed the broader Syrian war, that accelerated the SDF’s drift toward the Russia-Assad orbit.
<As the YPG general explained, “There is no solution for us, and we need an international force behind us, that is why we are making agreements with Assad and Russia.” https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/amid-us-uncertainty-in-syria-kurdish-ypg-eyes-bolstering-ties-with-russia/ No.1607583
>>1607541If you deposed Putin right now and installed a libby peace dove, what you would have is the total dismemberment of Russia and a further reduction of their standard of living. Even the Russian Communist Party recognizes that if Russia were to be vanquished by neo-Nazi controlled Ukraine/NATO, it would constitute a total calamity for the sovereignty of Russia.
https://youtu.be/uRuDwuv36z4 Those neoliberal imperialist demons at The Atlantic even admitted that their desire for Russia is to be dismembered, and they articulated as much in their article entitled "Decolonize Russia."
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/russia-putin-colonization-ukraine-chechnya/639428/ It is WRONG that Putin invaded, but it was even worse that Jens Stoltenberg or whatever the fuck his name is, secretary of NATO, had heard Putin's very legitimate demand that Ukraine not be added to NATO, and Jens said, no, you don't get to tell us what to do, we get to do what we want; that's a non-starter. Jens of NATO did this knowing that he had the full backing of the U.S. because NATO is an appendage of U.S imperialism and has been the instrument of contemporary imperialism in Libya, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia (all of which, by the way, had been described by the so-called "Free" (imperialist-capitalist) Press as being "humanitarian interventions").
No.1607592
>>1606712>>1606769>>1606769>>1607579I hate it when the contrarian Zizek says things that are correct. Stupid RADLIBS are getting mad in this dumbass thread over the fact that the Grayzone, or that TPF is receiving money from billionaires … MOTHERFUCKER. HOW. THE FUCK. DO YOU THINK. A MOVEMENT. IS. CULTIVATED? You INFANTILE RETARDS cannot seem to figure out that in order to have consistently principled, well-disciplined leaders of the working class that you have to cultivate such leaders, and to cultivate leaders of the working class, you need to train them, you need to have them in reading groups, and you need to give them the resources they need to do organizing, because the necessary experience that is needed to be able to lead a working class movement to victory in a time of true, revolutionary crisis, is not gained via dreams, it is not gained through shitposting on X or leftypol or reddit. It is not acquired by merely uploading polemical videos to youtube and tiktok. If you want good revolutionary leaders, it takes time, it takes money, lots of money, and it takes humility. YOU FUCKING ASSHOLES HAVE NEITHER OF THESE THINGS. SO SHUT THE FUCK UP.
>>1606769>Cope harder bitch. If Grayzone is so principled why are they so secretive of showing who funds them?The recent NYTIMES trash went out of its way to "expose" that a billionaire gave his money to Codepink and TPF, but notice that the NYTIMES has no problem with billionaires funding the Democratic Party. Why do you suppose that is? It is because TPF poses a threat to imperialist capitalism. It is because the TPF exposes the role that NYTIMES plays. It is because NYTIMES has always been on the side of imperialism and needs to cultivate this illusion of politics that we call bourgeois elections, where they obfuscate the fact that both the Democrats and the Republicans are funded by the same racist pedophiles. TPF and Codepink tell people that the Democrats are liars just like the Republicans, that Biden is a warmongerer and a criminal, and NYTIMES rushes in to "save the day" from the billionaire who has "Chinese Ties" … Literally every fucking business man has ties to China in the current day and age because it is one of the fastest growing economies in the world, because so much of American manufacturing has moved to China, because China is actually a relevant country and will remain a relevant country for years to come, whereas the United States is crumbling and collapsing.
The fact of the matter is: the popular moral conceptions of the day are the moral conceptions of the ruling class. If you think it is morally difficult that leftists who *actually* want to get stuff done may occasionally receive money from a billionaire that is committing class suicide, then you have identified with the other billionaires that disapprove of class suicide, that disapprove of advancing the class war in the interest of overthrowing the rule of the billionaire class, that, in-fact, seek to frustrate the efforts of the communists.
No.1607593
>>1606769>>1606767>>https://fashbusters.wordpress.com/2021/11/02/does-goldman-sachs-fund-the-peoples-forum-psl-codepink-aipac-and-vijay-prashads-tricontinental/>so more shitlib groups that are funded by goldman sachs? what does this have to do with gray zone again?Why do you consider Vijay Prashad, Tricontinnental, TPF to be "shitlib" groups? Vijay is literally the most principled anti-communist Marxist-Leninist in the current day and age. Tell me what makes him, or TPF, or Tricon "shitlib"?
No.1607604
>>1607519Again, how is them forming a truce between assad and russia a bad thing? This is probably more of an indicator that they're not CIA backed.
Are you suggesting they're becoming "reliant" on them? Because as seen here:
>>1607519This isn't the case.
No.1607667
>>1607364Thank God, please stop commentating on things besides asinine e-celeb drama or your cringe /k/ friends. You’re not equipped for it
No.1607760
>>1607667<"World Knowledge": The Russian leadership has repeatedly claimed that they face a historic opportunity to end U.S. hegemony and reorganize the international order. Your introduction to the meeting just now reflects this trend of thought. In terms of Russia's current international situation, especially when it is heavily sanctioned by the United States and the West, do you think Russia is getting closer or further away from this goal?
>Wu Dahui: The Russian leadership indeed believes that the prospects for a multi-polar world structure are becoming increasingly clear, and now a strong force is needed to guide it. Russia believes that the decline of U.S. and Western hegemony is unstoppable, and the rise of emerging powers as the main center of power in the world is equally unstoppable. China is the main factor leading the world to form a new center of power. In this process, if China, Russia, India, ASEAN and other countries can join hands, they will effectively promote the accelerated formation of multipolarity.
>At the same time, the composition of a country's core competitiveness is also changing. The world can no longer rely on military hard power to determine the world as it did in the past. In addition to factors such as population, territory, economy, military strength, strategic intentions, and national will, there must also be taking into account the level of national governance and decision-making capabilities. At present, the gap between Russia's power and China and the United States is getting wider and wider, and there has not yet been a trend of shrinking again. Its scientific and technological innovation and global influence are all shrinking. However, Russia still has irreplaceable hard power. One is its energy supply capacity, and the other is its grain production capacity. Measured by comprehensive production capacity of oil, natural gas, coal, etc., Russia remains the world's largest energy exporter. Russia has also restored its status as a major grain exporter that was once weakened by the Ukraine crisis. In the first half of this year, grain exports reached more than 70 million tons. Many countries in Africa and the Middle East cannot get rid of their dependence on Russia for grain.
>Relying on the world's largest nuclear arsenal and a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council, Russia will be an important pole in the multi-polar world and occupy a place in the competition between major powers. However, its development path cannot be copied. From a historical perspective, Russia’s previous rises and renaissances have not been characterized by economic development. From the time of Peter the Great in the early 18th century, to defeating Napoleon at the Battle of Borodino in 1812, participating in and even leading the creation of the Vienna System in 1815, and then to the Crimean War in 1854, Russia has been the number one military power in Europe and even the world. They are accustomed to speaking based on military strength.
>Now that Russia is still developing along historical inertia, it is difficult to integrate into the Western-dominated international system, especially the global economic and scientific and technological innovation system. In future international competition and strategic games, Russia cannot achieve the goal of reorganizing the international order on its own. It needs more than ever to shape an international environment that is favorable to itself through cooperation with other countries.
<"World Knowledge": The West defines China and Russia as "revisionist countries in the current international order." However, judging from the consistent discourse of the Russian leadership, it is more interested in overthrowing the current order and starting over, and confronting China from within the current order. Their ideas for reform and improvement seem to be different. Do you think the existence of this difference will affect the effectiveness of strategic cooperation between China and Russia?
>Wu Dahui: In the formation and development process of the current international order, China has always been a participant, beneficiary and contributor. Russia believes that the current international order is dominated by the West and is increasingly based on rules set by the United States. It has entered a state of "exhaustion" and even "chaos" and is unable to support the normal and reasonable operation of the world, and must undergo root surgery. These are different from our views and opinions. However, the two countries have a basic consensus on opposing international hegemony and bullying and promoting democratization of international relations, which forms the basis of strategic coordination.
>China and Russia have a common border of more than 4,300 kilometers. As the saying goes, "neighbors cannot be chosen." The two countries can only be on good terms and not on bad terms. The United States' global strategy has moved towards "dual containment" of China and Russia. At the same time, it attempts to divide the world into Western and non-Western camps based on each country's stance on the Ukraine issue. China and Russia have been classified into the non-Western camp. Such a situation leaves China and Russia with no choice but to continuously strengthen strategic coordination. Of course, the era we live in cannot achieve absolute security by playing with the balance of major powers and using one country to balance another. The prospects for national strength development and major power competition still depend to a large extent on the level of domestic governance and development. No.1607775
>>1607364This. Saying that it's "Funded by Goldman Sachs" makes it sound like an investment bankers are directing mutual funds to literally who leftist forums to either get profit or as some sort of long term glowop campaign. What actually happens is that an Indian dirigist contributed private money to state capitalist shills like Grayzone
No.1607828
>>1607583But anon you should always be good. Good will prevail because it just will because good is nicer than bad. :)
No.1607910
>>1607852Probably because a large amount of international trade is still done in US dollars and they remain extremely useful.
No.1608643
bump
No.1608691
>>1607579BASEDthat's the video I tried to find and post
No.1610325
Left-Communist Multipolarity: Amazing, wonderful, groundbreaking, gamechanging
"ML" Multipolarity: Ebertism, Class Collaboration, Liquidationism, Anti-Socialism
No.1610326
>Nevertheless, testimonies on the positions of Bordiga concerning the result of the war are contradictory and show great ambiguities. It seemed that Bordiga certainly believed in the victory of the Axis and that the victory of Fascism would be for him "a necessary phase through which should pass capitalism in all the countries ", and that "the victory of Allied would have made only delay this inevitable process". Well more, he would have wished "the defeat of the true capitalism, i.e. American, and not that of German type".
>According to the press of June 1944 (an article of Bandiera rossa, taken again by the Stampa of Turin and the Gazette of Lausanne of June 14), whereas the Red Army made fulgurating break-through in Eastern Europe, Bordiga would have affirmed that the triumph of the Stalin’s army would be "the moving proletarian revolution". A press release of the Bordigst press in the North (Prometeo, July 25, 1944, in French) formally contradicted alleged prosovietic Bordiga’s sympathies. It seems that at this period, Bordiga refused not only to join the socialist Party, which had discreetly made him the proposal, but refused any advance of the Americans who, installed in the South of Italy divided in two parts, would have agreed to use the prestige of Bordiga to counter the development of the Italian CP of Togliatti.
No.1610386
>>1610327>>1610326>>1610325>>1610323stop confusing soviet realpolitik from 1955 with present day conditions
No.1610400
>>1610386soviet realpolitik is when left communism
uhh based??
No.1610422
>>1610421>more communist thanlel
No.1610425
>>1610386American imperialism has declined in relevancy, true.
No.1610427
>>1610425Yes we are now dealing with Chinese imperialism.
No.1610451
>>1610427who's "we", what does this chinese "imperialism" look like and how are you "dealing" with it?
No.1610456
>>1610453cool blogpost, can you answer though?
No.1610459
>>1610427No, we aren't, you fucking moron.
No.1610460
>>1610453>>1610456He meant to say he's a boujie baizou.
No.1610462
Crackers always going around to everyone else "remember the good time?" No I don't cracker. Your time will never come again.
No.1610480
>>1610427this is what liberals actually believes
No.1610550
>>1610427China's imperialism is still small fry compared with us/eu. thats not the problem. the problem is they are still capitalist
No.1610746
>anons ITT denying the fact that China’s foreign policy includes its own adventurism into exploiting the African continent
No.1610773
>>1610323Ziggas are always in a superposition between ᴉuᴉlossnW and Bordiga
No.1610786
Multipolarism is Kautskyism.
Multipolarism is not "the battle against US imperialism", it is the striving towards a world of great capitalist states existing side by site without conflict. This is the ultra-imperialism of Kautsky. It is also retarded and not in line with how capitalism works in reality.
Bordiga making retarded statements is seperate from it being or not being in line with multipolarity. It is not.
No.1610801
>>1610789Try not to make a false equivalence challenge:
FAILED No.1610826
>>1610453No you're not alone, you have a pathology which is predictable and they expect from you.
You'll lash out at your betters in your anger, but luckily your life is meant to come to nothing.
No.1611059
>>1610746i dont deny that but its still minor compared with the us/eu
No.1617459
>>1610327fake ultras, libs
No.1617463
>>1610427>Chinese imperialismDoesn't exist, has never existed, probably never will exist
No.1617466
>>1610789Correct, actually. South KKKorea and other pets of the AmeriKKKan Empire like Israel are not subject to unequal exchange like the rest of the Global South because they have completely thrown their lot in with Uncle Sam and exist to contain whatever camp the AmerKKKans don't like.
No.1617470
>>1617463It's people from imperial nations running scared that "they'll do to us what we did to them". It's liberalism and chauvinism.
No.1617474
>>1617470Maybe some of the people buying into the narrative are scared of China, but not the people pushing it. The propagandists just represent Western imperialists who want to slice up China, divide it into little client state fiefdoms, and take direct control over its resources and production, much in the same way they intend to do to Russia. The rhetoric is hysterical and jingoistic, but the actual motive is pure expansionism.
No.1617506
>>1617474>The rhetoric is hysterical and jingoistic, but the actual motive is pure expansionismIt amounts to the same thing.
No.1620133
>>1610427The form of imperialism in our era is the global reserve currency. From the currently available information, China has zero plans to make the Yuan one, because they see how badly it's going for America.
No.1650639
>Pope Francis has slammed the West for murdering Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein and leaving 'organised anarchy' behind as well as saying that ISIS emerged as a result of 'an unfortunate Western choice'
>"It is true. Of the consequences of colonialism and, in particular, the appropriation of their natural resources. But also of the failure of the West in its attempt to import its own type of democracy into certain countries with a culture, I won't say tribal, but of a similar nature. Let's think about Libya, which seems to be able to be led only by very strong personalities like Gaddafi. A Libyan told me that they once had only one Gaddafi, but now they have fifty-three. The Gulf War was a true disgrace, not to say one of the worst cruelties. Saddam Hussein was certainly no little angel, on the contrary, but Iraq was a fairly stable country. Warning: I am not defending Gaddafi or Hussein. But what did the war leave behind? Organized anarchy and more war. Therefore I believe that we must not export our democracy to other countries, but rather help them develop a process of democratic maturation according to their characteristics. Don't go to war to import a democracy that their people are unable to assimilate. There are countries that have a monarchical system and that will probably never accept a democracy, but we can certainly contribute to ensuring that there is greater participation. In any case, I consider myself ignorant when it comes to international politics, but I believe that the appearance of ISIS is based on an unfortunate Western choice."https://www.lastampa.it/vatican-insider/2023/10/23/news/il_papa_e_i_migranti_prigionieri_nei_ghetti-13802666/ No.1679071
The last time we had strong multipolarity, it ended up in two world wars. The reason Pax Romana, Pax Mongolica, Pax Britannica, and Pax Americana are named that way is because there was one dominant power keeping trade routes open, and not having huge conflicts with rivals.
multipolarism is a recipie for geopolitical conflict
No.1679245
>>1679071You can't oppress the world to unite it. Peace based on injustice is war.
No.1679279
>>1679071>>1679071we also got multiple successful socialist revolutions
also the conditions are also vastly different, a handful of colonial powers competing isnt the same as the many regional powers emerging among a globalized and a lot more industrialized world
No.1707422
>>1606942>Put simply, the United States, as every country, is not a product of genocide and slavery, nor is it a product of freedom and liberty, it is a product of class antagonisms and struggle, in this regard it is not exceptionalThis is a really weird, self-defeating argument. The genocide of indigenous peoples is a manifestation of the struggle and class antagonisms spoken of here, as relating to imperialism. MIDWESTERN MARX IS TROTSKYIST BECAUSE THEY REVISED LENIN'S THEORY OF IMPERIALISM SO THAT THEY CAN IGNORE THE FACT THAT THE GREAT WEALTH OF THE UNITED STATES IS DERIVED FROM IMPERIALIST EXPLOITATION OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLES!
No.1707604
>>1707530
>its all on afghanistan
what a brainlet take
No.1707932
>>1679071And both world wars resulted in the expansion of communist power drastically. The third and final world war will see the destruction of the west once and for all
No.1716904
Multipolarism is the heart of a heartless world, the opium of the leftist.
No.1716964
>>1707932retard
>>1716904Its revisionism for idiots who don't even know the theory to begin with. First as tragedy then as farce.
No.1717175
>>1716964>multipolarity is revisionismIts impressive how I have never seen an actual good take or good reasoning from anti multipolarista crowd, best they can do is the purity screeching
No.1717236
>>1716904Nah, it's just ML capitalist realism, but now they through out the red paint dye and are now just pelting the flag in literal shit
No.1717246
>>1716964>>1717236sorry firstoids but the treats WILL cease and you WILL live through revolutionary conditions
No.1717257
>>1717246Notice that your understanding of things is so negative and warped, shifted towards genuinely cowardly self-loathing
(you may be pretending to be from a "non-Western" country but we both know you're likely a Anglophone cracker trying to cope online by shilling for brown nationalists jnstead of doing anything) and a meme understanding of politics (le political football like most retards) that you genuinely think socialism would be bad for workers
You faggots really out to join the other fascists if your prerogative is to rant and rave at proles from the West that """socialism""" unironically means white genocide and mass poverty
No.1717300
people who are against multipolarism reject the political struggle. they're basically anarchists.
No.1717310
>>1717300Anarchists are based
Beats being a liberal with dystopian characteristics
No.1717315
>>1717300They are anarchists who are basically liberals.
No.1725582
>>1725562Come on, They are the least likely. List someone more likely, I'll go first. The UK anarcho bruvva who gets to every conflict zone and always nato aligned.
No.1725626
>>1725582look at how
utterly bourgeois he is!
No.1725633
>>1725624Would you say Engels glowed because he owned factories?
No.1725634
>>1725624>They glow famJT literally got harassed by glowies at his house for making videos about the CIA.
No.1725649
>>1725562>>1725624keep going the more times you repeat a lie the stronger it gets bro.
No.1725655
>>1725634yes his coworkers showed up confused
No.1725656
>>1725633Fedrich Glowgels
No.1725661
>>1725624> SecondThoguht has a wealthy family in the fossil fuels sector by his own admission>Yugopnik is a drunk white collar guy in a managerial position by his own admissionFidel Castro was both a white collar dude (lawyer) and the son of a plantation owner.
No.1725667
>>1725661Fidel Castro actually risked his skin and led a revolution though instead of asking working class people to donate to patreon/livestream/subscribe to groundnews/buy atlasvpn so that their money can go into a random black hole of "content creation"
No.1725670
>>1725667Well there isn't revolution in any of those countries right now, nor does one appear likely. So explain to my why doing agitprop and producing communist media isn't contributing to the movement. You realize that every remotely successful communist movement in the past has generated its own media landscape correct? It's literally part of the superstructure of the working class movement. Would you prefer that we produce nothing and just allow everything to be dominated by anticommunist narratives?
No.1725673
>>1725670There are plenty of leftist content creators who don't advertise schlock or ask for donations, and on top of that they aren't already rich like Secondthought/Yugopnik
No.1725674
>>1725672it doesn't preclude them because Fidel was the son of a plantation owner but he was based
No.1725675
>>1725673>There are plenty of leftist content creators who don't advertise schlock or ask for donationsWhat's your issue with this exactly? How else are they supposed to support their work?
No.1725677
>>1725675The bourgeois corporations they critique pay them
No.1725678
>>1725661And I even heard that Fidel worked with this Doctor guy from Argentina. I forget his name…
No.1725688
>>1725680what is a conflict of interest? Why is a "communist" telling me ground news offers a "fair and balanced" account of bias in news media? Why are they telling me ground news is good at "catching both left and right biases!" It's literal bothsides centrist neoliberal shlock that they're paid to advertise. And they slip this right into the middle of their content. Because they're paid to.
Imagine simping this desperately for breadtube shills
No.1725693
>>1725680They are a bourgeois organ
No.1725695
>>1725690But they used their labor for that money. They worked for everything they had. They sold their labor to youtube for wage and used that wage to make more wage.
No.1725696
>>1725690You know what a grift is, yes? You think that all of them have made up their political views? If not then it is not a grift, dumbass. Mere success isn't automatically a grift.
No.1725699
>>1725677So, just like every other worker? Or who pays you a wage? lmao
No.1725700
>>1725690Look socialism isn't a poverty cult, sure maybe it would be better if they gave everything to the poor and lived like monks but more leftist creators is good even if they're rich or have rich backgrounds (you know like Lenin and Engels)
No.1725704
>>1725700>It's not a poverty cult Correct
<therefore the rich small business owner advertising neoliberal propaganda is definitely a communistwrong
No.1725707
>>1725704if he delivers good socialist agitprop it doesn't even matter what is inside their head
No.1725710
>>1725688>what is a conflict of interest?It's only a conflict of interest if their sponsors care about what they say and try to influence their content. Given that they're some of the only leftist ecelebs that consistently oppose the US/NATO at every turn, openly praise AES including the USSR, and straight up said that there's no such thing as an Israeli civilian, I'm not at all convinced of this.
>It's literal bothsides centrist neoliberal shlock that they're paid to advertise.Who cares? They have a whole hour dedicated to pushing communist ideas but you're put off by a 30 second ad for a product you don't like? How does that negate the rest of their content?
>>1725690So you have to be poor to be a communist?
>It's pure grift.If it's a grift then it's a bad one considering they've chosen one of the smallest most niche audiences in the world.
No.1725711
>>1725695>They worked for everything they had. All 3 of them hire editors and possibly also script writers
No.1725712
>>1725707except it's not good agitprop, and it has advertisements in the middle of it
No.1725714
>>1725712if it's not good agitprop then attack it for those reasons instead of crying that they make money
No.1725715
>>1725710>So you have to be poor to be a communist?No you don't have to be poor but it's very obvious when someone is telling you that ground news is unbiased that they're trying to sell you a product
No.1725717
>>1725715Ok and? Just ignore the ads like everyone else does
No.1725719
>>1725695You cannot seriously be calling the valorization of viewer-consumption waged remuneration, or 'earning a wage'
No.1725723
>>1725715bro just install the extension that skips that part
No.1725725
>>1725723wait is there an extension that skips the in-video ads?
No.1725730
>>1725714the reason it's bad agitprop is because they advertise neoliberal propaganda and fake privacy products in the middle of their "analysis" which isn't even rooted in Marx but in a kind of "chapotraphouse but zoomer" vibes based theory
No.1725734
>>1725730>which isn't even rooted in MarxHow is it not rooted in Marx? Hakim especially shills like 5 book recommendations per episode, usually by Marxist authors if not Marx's own work.
No.1725736
>>1725730Chapo is good, if you want only Marx based analysis then do it and try to make it entertaining but without these kind of streamers/yters there would be almost no people consuming leftist content
No.1725737
>>1725731it's obvious it's a grift for them because on top of making far more than the average person does from voluntary donations alone, they still advertise neoliberal garbage. Meanwhile you have someone like S4A who will just spend 3 hours reading lenin at you for free and advertise nothing.
No.1725739
>>1725731The content they produce is just an advertisment.
No.1725741
>>1725734Hakim is the only one that might be good. The other two kidnapped him and are torturing him in Abu Ghraib
No.1725742
>>1725730>their "analysis" which isn't even rooted in Marxby which you mean isn't rooted in Heidegger or Lacan or whatever peripheral thinker who is decidedly not Marxist but certain weirdos like you insist on trying to graft onto communism
No.1725743
>>1725742Yugopnik literally shills Lacan and Zizek in his masculinity video
No.1725745
>>1725742and no, I don't mean the nazi heidgger or the freudian retard lacan. i don't care about that shit and didn't bring it up, you did
No.1725747
>>1725737>it's obvious it's a grift for them because on top of making far more than the average person does from voluntary donations alone, they still advertise neoliberal garbage.So, just to be clear, you are saying that in order to be a proper propagandist/educator for communism in the current media environment, you must refuse to make more than a certain amount of money and/or refuse to take money the bourgeoisie are willing to give you for making ads that don't even work?
No.1725748
>>1725737>Meanwhile you have someone like S4A who will just spend 3 hours reading lenin at you for free and advertise nothing.Probably why nobody listens to them. That's shit content. If I wanted to read Lenin I would read Lenin. Commentary, interviews, etc are something else entirely.
>>1725739Correct, an advertisement for communism.
No.1725752
grifter defense forces coming out strong tonight.
>>1725748>Correct, an advertisement for communism.no, an advertisement for fake privacy malware and fake 'unbiased' neoliberal propaganda
No.1725754
>>1725752>grifter defense forces coming out strong tonight. We want socialist propaganda that people will actually see, not channels that get basically no views.
No.1725755
>>1725752How does 30s of ads most people ignore negate an hour plus of explicitly communist commentary?
No.1725756
>>1725747no you shouldn't refuse money, but if you're already rich and on top of that you're advertising fake privacy software and fake "unbiased" neoliberal propaganda in the middle of your "communist" agitprop, you probably are a grifter. if you make 25k for livestreaming a video game for an hour while you barely talk about communism, and then hordes of your simps come to your defense about this, it glows.
>>1725748>That's shit content.no that's great content. a single mom who's folding laundry and changing a diaper can listen to lenin instead of having to drag out a dusty old tome from the library during her 1 hour of free time. shit content is 3 rich zoomers livestreaming donkey kong and talking about mao memes and testicles
No.1725757
>>1725748>Correct, an advertisement for communism.No, the content is completely irrespective of the form.
This is the lynch pin of the critique of modern consumption, for which you need to have read Adorno's The Culture Industry to peak into. It is simply the repitition of a dull economic act.
No.1725762
>>1725758What's wrong with Hasan? He has done great work on Palestine. I feel like you have some weird and pathological attachment with some of those online creators. Go outside and touch some grass
No.1725763
>>1725756>if you make 25k for livestreaming a video game for an hour while you barely talk about communismwhen did this happen
No.1725765
>>1725762>simping for rich grifters<actually you should touch grassactually you should actually put your skin in the game instead of defending grifters
No.1725766
>>1725763seriously, watch one of their livestreams and count up the donos
No.1725768
>>1725766did you actually count up donations to 25k or are you pulling absurd numbers out of your ass
No.1725775
>>1725758The only episode I saw that had Hasan they mostly talked about NATO and why it sucks lmao.
>>1725756>no that's great contentIf you want an ebook. Are you saying that communists should only produce ebooks?
No.1725778
>>1725756If you don't like it then don't fucking watch it, clearly some people do and it brings more people to the left
No.1725783
>>1725766Ok and? I don't give money to these kind of people but are you telling me you wouldn't take that money if you could? Of course you would
No.1725784
>>1725778>it brings more people to the leftThis is just a poor euphamism, at best, for drivinng engagement without any real understanding.
No.1725789
>>1725784Even if I accept your premise so what? More people on the left is good even if they have bad theory, would you prefer they go fucking watch destiny?
No.1725792
>>1725784You are aware that people from their fandoms have an actual track record of organizing and unionizing work places? Some of the documented starbucks unionizations were driven by some hasan fans for example.
No.1725793
>>1725789>More people on the left is goodNot even going to rebuttal. If you honestly believe that the spasmodic consumption of uncoordinated political content is somehow a positive driving force for revolutionary politics then you deserve the system you get, which is the one you have now.
No.1725796
>>1725792Utterly mad how Lenin organised a revolution without a podcast or a video essay vlog
No.1725803
>>1725796Yeah Lenin didn't try to reach out to normal people with pamphlets, newspapers, discussion groups, travelling Marxist teachers… Basically any method available
No.1725808
>>1725803No way, so you're saying…there are alternate ways of sending a message…without videos designed to perpetuate the cycle of consumption-cum-advertisment?
>>1725806>YEAH SO THE PEOPLE ARE SO STUPID LITERALLY ALL THEY'LL UNDERSTAND IS IF THEY HAVE KEY-TENANTS THEY CAN'T EVEN CRITICISE WORDLESSLY REGURGITATED AT THEM. JUST LIKE TODAY I SUPPOSE WITH BOURGEOIS MEDIA. OH…. No.1725809
>>1725808If you have some better method of reaching out to people and teaching them Marxism then why don't you go do it? Oh yeah because it's much easier to piss and moan then actually do anything constructive
No.1725814
>>1725811>He thinks 'mass activism' is badJesus Christ man, absolutely irredeemable
No.1725815
>>1725814The protests stopped the war in…Iraq?
The protests stopped the war in…Syria?
The protests stopped the war in…Palestine?
The protests in Occupy stopped…Capitalism?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1o3koTLWM No.1725840
>>1725624>2/3s of them won't show their facesI see them as just milk-toast soc-dems but I honestly don't blame them for not showing their faces.
>SecondThoguht has a wealthy family in the fossil fuels sectorNow that's interesting, but not really surprising.
>Yugopnik is a drunk white collar guy in a managerial position by his own admissionThat's why he's the only one of them that doesn't come off as a condescending douche.
>Hakim is an Iraqi physician who grew up during US occupationI'm pretty sure Iraq isn't just entirely a backwater destroyed wasteland. I'd put some money down that there are well developed sectors in that country where people live relatively well off lives (especially doctors). He's probably rich as any doctor would be in a country like that. That doesn't make him some glowie. C'mon.
>i'm supposed to believe these 2 bourgeois guys and this 1 doctor from the imperial periphery share a love for the proletariat Who cares, they are socdems who do it for the money like any fucking political content creator.
No.1725896
>>1725700socialism isn't a poverty cult but it shouldn't be a cult of grifters either
No.1725910
>>1725815There has never been a successful communist movement without the participation of the masses. The fact that mass mobilization is not by itself sufficient doesn't make it less necessary.
No.1726770
i thought multipolarity was desirable in so far as the ensuing destabilization weakening of the hegemon allows a well organized and disciplined communist party to organize the masses and seize power
but the "communists" are too busy shitposting and looking at gore pics online, so I pretty much expect the fascists to seize the opportunity instead
No.1726902
>>1726770How would you identify fascism in the west? Putting migrants in camps? Closing down the borders? Financing Apartheid regimes and genocide? Ideologically, the switch to fascism is non-existent.
No.1726914
>>1726770It is. But many ziggas here are on the "our turn after Le Pen/AfD" type shit
No.1726917
>>1726914Same question:
How would you identify fascism in the west?
No.1726926
>>1726917The discontinuation of liberal institutions and ideals, the ban of socialist and communist parties and organization and the use of heavy violence to silence disidents.
No.1726929
>>1726926Starting to sound to me like misdirection. Actual evil is banalized while fear mongering about some greater evil on the horizon.
I think I get where some leftcoms are coming from with that even though they are still generally stupid.
No.1749291
>>1726917Everyone on this website would be dragged from their homes and executed either publicly or at some other location
That's how
No.1749293
>>1725661MLs aren't making the argument they think they're making when they say shit like this
No.1749296
>>1749291You make this webspace sound cooler than it is
No.1749297
>>1725710>It's only a conflict of interest if their sponsors care about what they say and try to influence their content. Given that they're some of the only leftist ecelebs that consistently oppose the US/NATO at every turn, openly praise AES including the USSR, and straight up said that there's no such thing as an Israeli civilian, I'm not at all convinced of this. Maybe you should try critically analyzing whether anything they do actually remotely threatens those interests then, but I get making being a ""communist"" your consumer identity makes many idiots feel great about themselves.
Just remember, every opportunist, moralizing, sentimental talking point you see shat out on leftist /pol/ and in this thread is fully compatible with capitalism
Capital would abandon the American Empire as easily as it abandoned the British Empire
No.1749300
>>1749296You don't need to be able actual threat for fascists to kill you, the first people they genocided were the disabled. If you lived under a fascist regime being a communist would be punishable by summary execution. The fact that you feel no fear while using this website should let you know you don't live under fascism.
No.1749303
>>1749300I'd recommend keeping your head down just in case.
> fact that you feel no fear while using this websiteUnless you're a glowie a moderate amount of paranoia is good
No.1749408
>>1749297>Maybe you should try critically analyzing whether anything they do actually remotely threatens those interests thenAdvocating for communism, defending past communist experiments, opposing current imperialist policies, giving platforms to communist organizations, attacking bourgeois historical narratives, etc. all threaten these interests, at least if they lead people to act on them. The only way you could argue otherwise is if your position is that a communist movement can succeed without a media apparatus to spread our views.
>Capital would abandon the American Empire as easily as it abandoned the British EmpireNot really relevant here since the Deprogram guys seem to judiciously avoid taking a stance on the allegedly progressive character of BRICS. They've platformed both pro and anti-Russian guests for example. They may be trying to avoid alienating any fans who are too autistic to patronize some dudes they don't 100% agree with, or they may have internal disagreements on that question. Probably a bit of both tbqh.
No.1749508
>>1749408> Advocating for communism, defending past communist experiments, opposing current imperialist policies, giving platforms to communist organizations, attacking bourgeois historical narratives, etc. all threaten these interests, at least if they lead people to act on them. The only way you could argue otherwise is if your position is that a communist movement can succeed without a media apparatus to spread our views. Building a consumer identity does little to threaten capital, no matter what that consumer identity may be; unfortunately as much as MLs think venerating corpses, joining Youtube fanclubs, and reading much vaunted texts make revolutions, they just don’t
No.1749514
>>1725624I disagree with you therefore I’m going to call you a wrecker glowie, I’m 100 percent right and you’re wrong because I’m immature and paranoid and spend too much time on the internet worrying about who works for the CIA as if that’s actually relevant to my life.
No.1749523
>>1749508What makes it a "consumer identity" exactly? They're spreading communist ideas. Is it building a "consumer identity" to read Marx? To read Marxist historians? To read Marxist analyses of current events? It's a critique which means nothing. No movement has ever been successful without generating a media apparatus to consolidate itself and spread its message.
No.1749529
>>1749523>What makes it a "consumer identity" exactly?heh sweaty…
>be le epic multipolarista>consoom Chinese commodities on AliMarket>huff Russian gas like a boss>?????>meanwhile International Porky makes a profitGood prole, keep going.
No.1749534
>>1749529>>be le epic multipolarista1. The Deprogram guys aren't exactly "multipolaristas". They have yet to take a position on it.
2. All you're really criticizing is consumption of ideas (and signifiers thereof) without corresponding action. However that has nothing to do with easily consumable communist media as such. Any effective movement will need such media, the mere fact that media consumption alone is not sufficient doesn't make it a "consumer identity." It's not sufficient but it is necessary, and in this particular case the hosts are either members of orgs themselves, or they urge people to join them and take action. You're calling it a "consumer identity" based on a strawman you created of a person who only consumes without action. That applies equally to actual theory as well, but I doubt you would say that Marx is bad and we should avoid him just because people often read him but don't get involved in the movement.
No.1749535
>>1749534If Marx was a ‘’real’’ communist he wouldn’t have printed and sold his books!
No.1749540
>>1749535>>1749534Alright, I don't care about what you are saying as long as you keep waking up on Monday and keep producing those sweet commodities.
Have a good night, tomorrow is the day where you will regret delegating all the domestic shit to machines instead of something called a "wife".
It's sad, I know. Keep working wagie, the rate of profit might crumble soon!
No.1749541
>>1749540Yeah porky is real dismissive until his workers start forming unions and joining communist parties.
No.1749544
>>1749541Go on my friend but don't forget to wake up Monday and clock in.
No.1749546
>>1749544A strike's been called. No clocking in for a while.
No.1749557
>>1749546Where is the multipolarista strike? You mean being a doomer while still producing those sweet commodities for me from Monday to Friday, and simping for foreign nation states, who are far away from your very material conditions?
It's okay if the ships can't go through the Suez Canal, the wagies under my order will mog all Africans and show them what is "imperialism", all the commodities they are not enjoying, big ships going to Europe.
What are you threatening me with, exactly?
No.1749780
>>1749557I'm not threatening "you" with anything. Idk what this gay rp shit is supposed to be or why you keep bringing up multipolarism in relation to The Deprogram. Communist media is a vital component of the movement, simple as.
No.1749795
>>1749780>Ctrl-F "Deprogram">it's some kind of e-celebsI don't care as long as you go back to the cagie to build the real movement on Monday! Multipolarity is definitely not a consumer identity, don't forget to consume more Moldovian salami!
No.1749801
>>1749795>Multipolarity is definitely not a consumer identityIt's a geopolitical development actually, one which Western porkies are definitely not okay with since they're about to plunge us into WW3 to stop it. Of course it won't end capitalism, but it will destabilize it, undermine the material basis for the rule of Western porkies over their own people, and cripple their ability to contain socialist movements abroad.
No.1749809
>>1749801While you are busy arguing on this niche Kyrgyz forum, I'm buying gas from the East and reselling it to the West. You thought capital had borders?
>Of course it won't end capitalism, but it will destabilize it, undermine the material basis for the rule of Western porkies over their own people, and cripple their ability to contain socialist movements abroad.We are still waiting since 1991 for communists to "destabilize" and "cripple" us while we make business as usual. We never said it was an eternal bull market, you only have to play your cards right.
No.1749813
Remember when oil futures went negative in 2020? Multipolarity will probably help stabilize the prices! More opportunities for me!
No.1789319
bump to save from deletion
No.1789785
>>1789319lol imagine bumping such a shit thread
No.1790194
>>1725624> SecondThoguht has a wealthy family in the fossil fuels sector by his own admission????????????????????????????
No.1790204
>>1789785it's needed, saves from international discussion in respective Ukraine and Palestine threads.
The trend and phenomenon of multipolarity is interesting, and has merit of worthy discussion.
No.1820402
Janitorial bump
No.1820420
>>1820409A war filled world will give us revolutionary conditions.
No.1820651
>>1820409Oh my god so much this
No.1821328
>Luv China
<Luv Cuba
>Luv Best Korea
<Luv Vietnam Laos Cambodia
>Ate Russia
<Ate Iran
>Ate Brasil and rest of liberal countries
Simple as.
No.1821336
<Luv Cuba
>Luv Best Korea
<Luv Vietnam Laos Cambodia
>Luv Russia
<Luv Iran
>Luv Brasil
No.1821530
The elephant in the room is that the new coldwar, china hawking etc. empowers fascist Bahrat which has self-consciness eand explicitly makes itself "indefensible" to the US-led anti-China alliance so as to entrenchment revanchist fascism. But the left and the multipolaristas (who aren't exactly left) don't like to acknowledge this and will instead relitigate unionization in China for the 9000x time.
No.1821590
>>1821530Thank you for taking this opportunity to display your total ignorance of anti-imperialist theory and discourse since the 70s, sorry I meant "tell us how smart you are for inventing criticizing India".
The discussion of India and South Africa as sub-imperialist states should take up most of our time. I've repeatedly pointed this out before, as well as my highly plausible explanation:
There is no discussion on this site of peripheral countries except when it comes to bending over backwards to explain why people agree with the Washington Post, but for BASED LEFTIST REASONS. That's why there is more criticism of anti-imperialist countries than sub-imperialists. There isn't enough for the propaganda-addicted ultra leftists to pay attention to.
Have you ever posted about the genocide in Manipur and how it relates to India's sub-imperialism against Bangladesh? No, you were busy wanking.
No.1821631
i cant fucking believe we have to discuss this garbage
so high on copium that some of us resort to defending bourgeois nations to feel less alone. pathetic
No.1821877
Right wing thread.
No.1822088
Ahahaha holy shit, I hadn't seen there was a fucking general for this liberal garbage. What are mods even doing.
No.1824860
>>1820461What caused the Russian and Chinese Revolutions and the Paris Commune?
No.1824902
>>1824874dumb revisionist faggot go rim xi jinpings as
No.1824906
Multipolarity is the Russian weak form of a post-American world. Consider instead: A Community with a Shared Future for Humankind:
https://wb.beijing.gov.cn/en/express/202312/t20231226_3512084.html No.1824907
>>1821631>>1821877>>1822088NOOOOOOO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, NON-WESTERN CAPITALISM IS BASED ACTUALLY! THE PETTY BOURGEOIS STREAMER SAID SO!
No.1824911
>>1820461wanting ww3 is stupid, but the hell is it idealist to say that? war is destabilizing, and makes bourgeois powers vulnerable. it would be better to destabilize them in other ways, but war would do it.
No.1824943
>>1824902>>18249075 cents have been deposited into your account.
No.1825890
>>1707422I'm so tired of "third-worldist" "anti-imperialist" liberals who never read Lenin constantly bringing him up to back up their stupid ideas. Lenin's support for natlib stemmed from a recognition of its function during a bourgeois revolution. He explicitly was against supporting natlib in areas where the bourgeois revolution is over, which, surprise, extends to the whole world since decades ago.
This thread might be the epitome of leftoid retardation. Absolutely doesn't belong on a communist or even anarchist imageboard.
No.1825912
>>1825890>areas where the bourgeois revolution is over, which, surprise, extends to the whole world since decades agolol
No.1827611
>>1821590What do you mean? Greater Bahrat is demolishing Mosques to make way for Hindu Monuments as the foundation of its national project. But who criticizes them for this? They are the best buddy of the Americans.
No.1827615
multipolarism isnt possible because in the long run one power or another will come to dominate
No.1827719
>>1821631>>1821877>>1822088>3 glowfags in a row doing this when the thread has been around since 2023-09-07you're getting desperate, burgers stupidity agency
No.1828835
>>1828005
lmao
"disliking non-western bourgeois" is not a real political position.
Showing the whole anti-multipolarista gimmick as absurd (argumentum ad absurdum)
It sounds about something like this "Not real communism".
No.1828845
>>1821393
>They actually promote the theory that every state is imperialist.
*Except China
No.1828904
>>1828889
hahahaha
It's not about arguments. You don't even understand the question. You aren't rejecting shit.
No.1828915
>>1828005
cry
No.1829337
>>1827615Why is US hegemony so unstable then?
No.1829354
Socialism! Not Multipolarism
2nd Edition 9-10-2023
A. Bloodgasm
Multipolarity is not something one should be for or against, because it really isn't something you can attach yourself to like some camp or some ideology. Multipolarity, as an existent term, is just a signifier of the current global economic conditions of the world in regards to the current dominant powers that own and transfer capital whether within their borders or without. What it means as a definition is just that instead of a singular global hegemon influencing global affairs or a dual power struggle between two superpowers, it is a condition in which the world is divided amongst multiple powers influencing global affairs/capital/the market.
To be for or against it is the equivalent of going out in the street and declaring yourself as being pro-summer or anti-winterists. Its silly. Its just like the changing of seasons and people have to adapt to it. When its freezing outside, you change into something warmer. But even the hardiest winter clothing is not going to keep one warm against the coldest winter, and we are heading into a long hellish winter. A capitalist winter twilight.
One thing many who espouse the concept of multipolarism (attaching oneself to multipolarity as if it is an ideology) tend to forget (or just outright refuse to acknowledge) that this new multipolar world we are heading towards is a capitalist-centric multipolarity. History has shown that last time this world had gone through a capitalist-led multipolar age helmed by imperialist powers, it had unleashed two world wars and countless dead. This not to say that having a unipolar or bipolar world is any better. During the Cold War the champion of capitalist hegemony, the United States, through proxy wars as well as actual wars, coups, and assassinations/subterfuge helped/directly committed atrocities and war-crimes that make WWII pale in comparison. During the unipolar reign of neoliberalism after the USSR fell, the atrocities did not stop, it only continued. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, the list goes on and continues to this day. All to reinforce capitalism and sustain imperialist expanse.
This is why one cannot attach themselves to a concept of multipolarity, or unipolarity, or bipolarity. The problem is not how many powers there are in the world. The problem is the global economic system that those powers exist under. Capitalism. Capitalism breeds competition. Nations or precisely the national bourgeoise of that nation compete for capital. They do not grow together in peace under capitalism as many proponents of multipolarism tend to espouse as a benefit of multipolarity. They head towards conflict, because capitalism breeds conflict. There is no multipolar peace under capitalism, only the prelude to war and destruction as nations compete for power.
Proponents of multipolarism will almost always fall back on and reference the stymied development of imperialized nations outside of the imperial core. They are correct in pointing this out and referencing the contradiction of neocolonialism. Those nations do in fact need to break free from imperialism and national liberation is necessary. But it is one thing to understand the purpose of a national bourgeoisie replacing the comprador in that struggle, but it is important to never rest solely on the national bourgeois to lead the socialist revolution or to think that they would ever allow that to happen. They ignore class and only focus on the “development” of said nations. This is a primary flaw of the multipolarist that leads to their the defense of reactionary regimes and the repression those regimes do to socialists within those nations.
Multipolarism does not care for the working class of those nations. It is just a changing of task masters. Nothing more, nothing less. Any boon for the workers borne from breaking away from the global hegemon is the equivalent of a heavy boot slightly being let off their collective necks. The struggle for socialism is not over and not won. The fact is that they are still under the boot of their national oppressors. It is up to them and we as socialists to use that slight aside to break free from under the weight of that boot.
Many multipolarists love to reference the how many of these budding capitalist nations have seemingly good standings with the few “socialist” nations of this world most predominantly Cuba and the DPRK as if that is a justification that multipolarity is a net positive. They tend to forget completely the this does not wash away the fact these growing countries are still capitalist and oppress their own working class.
If anything this does not justify multipolarity at all, it only reinforces that we still currently exist under a unipolar hegemony front-manned by the United States. This is because most of these countries are aligned due to the economic pressure (sanctions and blockades) put forth by the United States as well as the EU NATO-bloc (which is by in large an extension of American power). When that pressure eventually fades only time will tell if that alignment of those interests between worker-led nations and the nations run by power-hungry capitalists continue or (as history has shown us many times) inevitably clash.
And what of the old lion in the room? The United States. It is a waning power there is no doubt of it. Mulitpolarists love to frame their idealist multipolar world as one in which the United States is practically a nonentity. That there will be new orders that rise in its stead. That same United States that has military bases all across the globe will somehow just cease to be a relevant thing. Or if anything it will turn a new leaf and just accept the changing of seasons. Iridescent foolishness. Capitalism breeds conflict and the United States has sustained itself off conflict, colonialism, and imperialism from its inception. The capitalists who run that country will be anything but docile when their grip on global power is threatened. We see it today with the arming of Ukraine and the powder keg that is Taiwan. Global war is brewing, a prelude to the birth of a new multipolar world. If we even survive to see it. And all for what I ask you? Another capitalist-led world built on the ruins of the last? This is not even capitalist realism at this point. It is just capitalist reincarnation. A continual recycling of the capitalist system reinventing itself at the expense of everything; our entire existence put to flame just to try and keep the old ways alive. That is the multipolar world we are heading towards. But it doesn't have to be that way.
The global workers movement has been gutted and kept down for decades especially in the west. This has led many to adopt a form a campism to cope with lack of a united global movement. Anti-americanism, eastern/western dichotomy, and multipolarism are offshoots of this void. It allows one to feel that are apart of something bigger than themselves that, in their minds, can lead to something different. A capitalist multipolar world will not change or fix the problems that affect this world (which are born from capitalism) only the amount of hands that hold power in it (hands which are almost all attached to the arms of each respective nation's capitalist class).
This does not mean there is no global proletariat or that workers movements have gone extinct. Capitalism proletarianizes the populace. Workers currently toil in hellish conditions all around the globe and they are aware of their position. They know they are mistreated. They are striking and protesting for better conditions all around the global south. Workers are fighting against their oppressors. There is class consciousness among the working class. We must push towards socialism. Not only national liberation. Not some distant idealist dream of a multipolar world which only continues the corrupt system of the past. But socialism. We should not just want a multipolar world in the yolk of capitalism. Whether unipolar, bipolar, or multipolar it must be socialist! We must demand and bring forth a world run by the workers not the just the national capitalist class of warring nations. Global polarity feels like the changing of seasons and it seems we are heading towards a deadly winter. The best winter clothing may not protect one, but if we all get together for warmth, we'll persevere.
<Errata to this 2nd edition:
Better paragraph displacement (in my opinion)
Added a section on neocolonialism and the national bourgeoisie Par. 5
Added sentence in Par. 6
Added sentences in Par. 12 to clarify socialism does not end with national liberation alone
Removed final paragraph from previous version (anon was right, it was over-doing it)
Does not contain editor revisions from the NM version
No.1829356
>>1829332Stop posting Lenin like he'd agree with your stupid stance of supporting bourgeois nation-states when the whole world is already fully capitalist. Whatever farmed quotes pseuds post ITT are referring to the epoch of anti-feudal struggles against colonialism, which is long over. The bourgeoisie today is a reactionary class worldwide - to support bourgeois states against other bourgeois states is as reactionary as feudalists against capitalism back then.
In addition, Lenin also termed Japanese capitalism 'equally predatory' as American capitalism, despite genuine feudalism still existing there which was removed only in the 1950s after the American occupation, labour productivity in Japan being very low, being an agrarian society.
No.1829386
>>1829354China, among other US enemies are building multipolarism as a means for anti imperialism. Anti imperialism isn't just a magic word you utter nor a moral stance. It is a pragmatic goal.
No.1829402
>>1829386You mean trying to get a larger share of global capital? Very communist.
No.1829405
>>1829354Reposting your article from your defunct zine and calling it an "edition" is jawdropping bro
No.1829407
>>1829402Do you think Iran is an imperialist nation? Is Venezuela?
No.1829411
>>1829356>Supporting nation statesThere is no support from a internet armchair. Multipolarity is a material position(that is happening regardless of "personal support") not a personal opinion.
Where are the sources supposing multipolarism just generates socialism? Who says this? Proving that multipolarism doesn't create a socialist state is a shower argument against yourself stated publicly. It changes nothing.
An inherent admission of multipolarism is that it will be a series of competing predatory capitalist states. Whom with reduced recourses and less individual power predate less because they have less leverage to extract as much surplus with an alternative state available. Their position is weakened. Multipolarity is an iteration of underlying conditions not the magic bullet. proving it isn't the magic bullet changes nothing because it is not the argument.
Multipolarism is not an individual ideology that replaces or supplements. It is not the moral support a specific nation state. It is a material condition that increases the odds by just that little bit.
The bourgeois nation state will act in this fully capitalist world with or without personal opinion/support. Whether it mutates conditions favourably is the enitre point the whole time.
No.1829412
>>1829402I meant what I said. Can you engage in good faith?
No.1829422
>>1829412That's literally what China is doing, lol. The analogy of multipolarists supporting the "small business owners" of geopolitics is so very apt, even though China's GDP is almost as high as America's.
>>1829411For someone repeatedly saying "material" like that makes your argument automatically correct, you simply do not understand class positions. One bourgeois country or the other "winning" has nothing to do with communism.
The conditions for communism were already there a century ago. The bourgeois exist in every country, so America existing or not is irrelevant.
No.1829428
>>1829407So imperialism is merely a subjective policy manoeuvre? You can "become" imperialist at will? If Iran sent a few troops tomorrow hypothetically to neighboring Pakistan and grabbed a few villages, it would "become" imperialist all of a sudden, everything else remaining the same? Is maintaining a large naval fleet, engaging in proxy conflicts in the Middle East and attempting to construct nuclear weapons not enough of a struggling for resources for you?
How is it that Bulgaria in 1908, or Romania in 1919, or Poland in 1920 reached this supposed 'stage' of imperialism but modern day Iran apparently hasn't despite being far more developed than any of the aforementioned?
No.1829433
>>1829411>america is a special evil and when a different country takes the reins then revolution will be more possible by 0,00001% (?)this is just leftoid american exceptionalism
No.1829440
>>1606402What Lenin wrote (the flaws in his theory aside), he did not intend those criteria as a checklist for determining whether an individual state was imperialist or not - across Bolshevik writings you can find them calling states like Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Greece and even Kemalist Turkey imperialist. And it was certainly not to distinguish the relationship between rich and poor bourgeois nations - Lenin mentions in an article how Italian imperialism was termed "poor man's imperialism" owing to Italy's immense poverty then.
A country where 85% of the population were backward smallholder peasants can be capitalist-imperialist, but modern Iran that is far more developed, is somehow not. Curious. Lenin was not stupid enough to use his checklist as a qualifier for whether or not an individual state was imperialist, he used it to summarize what he saw as features of
the world capitalist system as a whole.
No.1829447
>>1829422If a specific bourgeois state won it wouldn't be multipolar it would be unipolarity again under a new flag. Who/where is calling for russia and chinas bourgeois to dominate global markets as the new order?
If none of the bourgious states outright win - if (as reality is trending towards) a series a regional blocs appear. Organisation/Agitation will have better odds against these more fragile states as history prior evidenced.
The point of the labor market example is that there is a relative scale of bourgeois power. That when on the lower end of this spectrum - the product of brief moments of competition between monopoly periods - surplus redistribution (therefore leverage in the economy the general oppurtunity to agitate and organise grows
The cultural existence of America is irrelevant - the power of their bourgeois as world monopolist is. Again Multipolarism does not claim to be the solution, it is a positive addition at best and a lost oppurtunity at worst.
To view it as a moral position supporting a specific cultures economic class reveals an moralistic,indivudalistic lib understanding of the world.
No.1829452
>>1829447Capital always tends to monopolize. Countries aren't exempt to this. This is just liberal complaints about monopolies but applied to geopolitics…
The whole point of globalization means a more united proletariat. Why exactly do you want this to break down?
No.1829466
>>1829452Large technological stocks of Russia armed forces remain reliant on western imports (by proxy) fighting the very same western interests that know what's going on when millions in tech is globally imported to Kazakhstan or other border states. The example is evidence that globalisation of trade remains (thus the mechanisms for proletarianization) but the relative power of a single state to discipline labor lowers. The contradiction between capitals global interest and the individual profit interest of each individual capitalist entity.
No.1829472
>>1829428How ridiculous. imperialism is global colonial financial system that prevents poor enclosed nations from developing. This is the core of modern geopolitics. Bloodgasm won't answer whether Iran and Venezuela are imperialist because he knows this fake ML definition passed around by The Deprogram and Politsturm applies to them. That's how lacking in rigor it is. These people will chimp out at the most heavily sanctioned countries on earth if the NYT leads the way. They never even bother with Turkey, India, or other sub-imperialists. This site is determined to have no impact on anything. Go ahead, remind me you helped proliferate the image of a mass shooter. Nobody is even aware of this "impact" until you make the claim.
No.1829477
>>1606107>>1606352>>1606400>>1607281This is just so funny for some reason. What do people even think finance capital is? Some arcane, esoteric, mysterious artifact only a select few can possess? Do countries like Yemen not have banks, shares, stocks, bonds or anything?
Coming into second hand contact with the retarded Lenin pamphlet reinforces their belief that it's a mystical trick of the dominant powers. Even if it was, and imperialism was simply financial domination, that'd just make Yemen an imperial puppet, hardly 'anti-imperialist' by any logic because modern finance can literally not be untangled from the capitalist system as a whole. There is absolutely no way to be both a bourgeois state and 'anti-imperialist'.
No.1829481
>>1829454Correct - which is why there is no source on earth claiming multipolarism is a idelogical answer to capitalism. Through contradictions of cynical actors opportunity is created, which can be used by the - now improved - leverage of conscious anti-imperialist elements against - now weaker - regional capital interests
No.1829487
>>1829468
reply to this
No.1829491
>>1829477So you think that the definition of finance capitalism is solely about the FIRE sector's proportions within a particular economy? So you use the example of Yemen? Uhh, okay buddy (ultra). Even if we stuck with that example it's patently ridiculous to compare the most heavily financialized countries on earth to the lowest income least financialized economies on earth. Go ahead call Eritrea imperialist with their subsistence farmers just because they have a competent military. You're grasping at straws.
Imperialism examines global trade, networks of ownership and payments, the debt system, myriad things which you don't even acknowledge the existence of as they disintegrate the entire nation of Haiti. Have you been living under a rock for say, 25 years?
No.1829495
>>1829491>support the small guy against the monopolies!!youre a walking parody
No.1829500
I keep leaving out migrant labor but it's the perfect example, along with the US having permanenly uncollected debt payments, of how rightoids reverse the victims and offenders of imperialism right under your noses. You wouldn't even be able to mount an argument against something that simple because you turn a blind eye to how we use other countries' debts to us to exploit them. You cannot imagine this happening without "magic powers" so anyone who notices it happening must just hate America, right? Don't you have some tendies to go eat?
No.1829502
>>1829495So Yemen fits your definition of imperialism, is that right kiddo?
No.1829505
Imperialism is when a country has a BANK. Imperialism is when a country has a MILITARY. Expose the imperialism of Hamas and their Qatari state backers! Stand for Israeli and Palestinian workers against anti-imperialist conflict!
No.1829526
>>1829466>The contradiction between capitals global interest and the individual profit interest of each individual capitalist entity.This right here is why people can't understand how the labor aristocracy work in the US. They think anyone saying the US exploits other countries thinks the wealth trickles down. Only to the top 10% with mortgages, retirement, benefits, even they still give up much of their superprofits back to the FIRE sector and all kinds of bullshit, they don't care because they make plenty of money at Google. That's why Google workers did a tepid little sit-in while Starbucks direct action is getting the goods. It's the tech workers and cybersecurity fags and finance and pharma industry lower ranks that are the labor aristocracy, not baristas.
Nobody is valorizing industrial exploitation of workers. But the contradictions between industrial and finance capital are stark. US banking is about pure rent seeking. There is no industrial investment. 80% of Chase's money comes from mortgages.
No.1829546
Just to sum this discussion up without reading it. The important gap is not between the multipolaristas and the other. The important distinction is between people that engage with reality and those that do not.
Watch/read Parenti, Prashad etc.
No.1829551
Ben Norton, who's in some spanish speaking country and has a website/news outlet called (formerly) multipolarista.
No.1829554
>>1829540
>Just admit your politics is tantamount to reverse US exceptionalism and call it a day
No, you haven't engaged with a single argument made by anti-imperialists.
You complete dismissed everything I said about the form and function and scale of the US financial system and how it IS the global financial system. Hence Saudis going in and torturing Yemenis for their bank codes, acting as sub-imperialist enforcers.
You swapped the labels on "THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDUMS!!!" to communist and you're so stupid you expect people to take you seriously when you clearly don't read what they say.
No.1829557
>>1829540
In a counterfactual world where Russia is the decaying world monopolist in a global capitalist world. Where instead it - not anywhere else - is the largest concentration of capitalist power leveraging its superiority to more effectively supress any organised attempt at improving conditions let alone political change;
The multipolar position would be to support semi-periphery east coast against the Canadian comprador state (or whatever) because of the same simple logic that there is ground to be gained by the third party (labor) when cynical actors are divided in conflict than united against you.
The perception that multipolarism is anti-americanism can only be born of believing American exceptionalism is why they are the seat of capital. Rather than a geoeconomic determinative that has no bearing on specific culture. It is projection and putting the cart before the horse
No.1829558
>>1829546Didn't he defect to China?
No.1829560
>>1829551He was in Nicaragua, he's in China now. The website is now called
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/ the name was changed because that's the name of Radhika Desai's book about imperialism. Which would take you mere hours to read, but you're too afraid to approach anti-imperialist writing. You would rather live in the land of make-believe.
No.1829561
>>1829555You are beyond uninteresting, a whiny child.
>>1829558Maybe, I don't know
No.1829563
>>1829560Sorry I got actual shit to do
No.1829564
>>1829558>defectIs going to complete a master's degree "defecting" now, your glowness?
No.1829565
>>1829563You're on TOR. You don't have anything to do other than wait for imageboard pages to load. You stand no chance of convincing me, or anyone else here that a spark of intellect resides in you.
No.1829569
>>1829565>>1829567Now fight for the people's amusement, clowns
No.1829575
>>1829565disregard that shitposter
>t. Norton x Aaron Good history series enjoyer No.1829581
>>1829578
>remember getting mocked by you faggoty fucks for not being an opportunistic rodent
Sorry that I've triggered your PTSD. Feel free to take a break and even read the things you're criticizing during that time, unless that also triggers you.
No.1829749
>>1829615Picrel should be on the front page. Site is wild with it the last couple of hours.
No.1829819
>>1829615>>1829749Holy shit, you have to be on a whole new level of stupidity to defend Russia as an alleged communist or even ML.
No.1829849
>>1829819>"Defend"You're still fucking doing it; what is this liberal personification of states - capitalist states no less - as individualistically moral entities to be 'defended' or 'denounced'. There is no defending or supporting anything because there is no effect at a commentary level because it could not care less. Out of cynical interest calculated upon historical conditions it did not choose - the Russian bourgeois have found themselves in opposition. Whose success comes at the cost of the hegemon to create a weaker net capitalist whole.
If everyone here signed a petition denouncing the invasion not a fucking thing would change and vice versa. Because morality at the individual level can only be superficially performative. Rather at the systematic level does it become salient.
At that systematic level, conceding to reality that the invasion has occurred completely irrespective to any personal opinion because history is not debate club. How this event can be seized upon, how this event shakes up capitalist dynamics, how that shakeup can be used as a catalyst for. Is the moral imperative with respect to reality.
The bourgeois are opportunistic, that opportunism has come into contradiction with a competing opportunist state that refuses to concede its hoarded rentier position. An event to be used rather than snidely dismissed. A dismissal that in its performative opposition puts you in parallel with hegemonic interests.
Geopolitics is not a "debate" where a side is picked. With an individualistic presumption that the world cares. It is observed and acted around. The point that is refused to be understood; that it is but one convenient step not the goal.
No.1829890
>>1829849>Geopolitics is not a "debate" where a side is picked. Except in the context of people
debating on an internet forum. Like you say: nothing would change based on what people say here, but what you leave out is that this doesn't mean the people here are universally intelligent, neutral observers analysing objective conditions. On the contrary, most are deeply partial emotional young men with a thousand petty biases that incline them to love whoever united states foreign policy loathes, who're inclined to let Russia off easy because even a good communist cannot resist the aesthetic linkage between Russia and Communism in the west - even if he ought to remember that the modern Russian state was born from blackest reaction it's so easy to displace when, like the USSR, it's a primary foreign policy opponent of the US…
Analysis of geopolitics by the powerless is generally cope, in-group signalling (look how much I hate the US guys! The US in which 90% of the time, I live.) escapism. Why work hard to do any local organising? Why think of a way of doing so that isn't LARP? Russia and China and Iran and, and, and, uhh, the next set of Fijians to mount a coup d'etat will do all the work for you. Look, they even use soviet looking tanks and fighters jets, that's something right? If you squint you can see the T-38s around the washington monument!
The result is then patently facile analysis, like people who's every statement indictates that they believe the Ukraine war is basically one long string of Russian victories, every setback being a decoy, a strategic retreat, etc, etc, and if you say otherwise you're a Ukranian shill. How the dispassionate analyist finds his passions aroused by people presenting the opposite case! how curious! No.1829902
>>1829890>Analysis of geopolitics by the powerless is generally cope, in-group signalling (look how much I hate the US guys! The US in which 90% of the time, I live.) escapism. Why work hard to do any local organising? Why think of a way of doing so that isn't LARP? Russia and China and Iran and, and, and, uhh, the next set of Fijians to mount a coup d'etat will do all the work for you. Look, they even use soviet looking tanks and fighters jets, that's something right? If you squint you can see the T-38s around the washington monument! Taken In good faith you cannot state you are above the pigs if you roll around in the shit with them in the pigsty. Why do they get the agency to decide the frame of argument, why does poor old you have to engage with their framing while dismissing any higher economic analysis. Why let them decide the base ignorance of debate unless you yourself subscribe to their tenets from the opposite end.
Taken as bait Who the fuck said any of this? Where are they beyond the crevices of your own mind? . Where are the posters calling Russia the substitute, where are the posters saying local organising is bad; an effort helped by a fractured world order with less pressure and greater leverage. Most importantly if they do exist - why should they be taken so seriously as to derail analysis?
Your ego has gotten too involved in an internet debate you think you're above. read the shit thats been written above instead of 'winning;' against a Parasocial image of a poster you dont like or log off and look in a mirror.
No.1829908
>>1829902 (me)
your counter is built on historical grievance and far worse - petty grievance towards internet people you dont know - rather than any actual analysis of the here and now - if theres a line of thought on how local organising benefits from a unipolar world state it instead of another fucking caricature on how you think the bad people support Russia and even more pathetically if taken true - you take them seriously enough to respond
No.1829910
>>1829337even if us hegemony disintegrates it will be replaced both another country's capitalist hegemony
No.1829912
>>1829902>Taken as bait Who the fuck said any of this?People speak through their actions. If someone spends all day talking about the Russia-Ukraine war, they do not have to
say that they neglect or reject local organising. Their mind is clearly elsewhere. They might even say they're for it - plenty of idiots who waste their time on other things will say that, in principle, they love and support organising. Their love is theoretical, their support "moral".
I do not think I am above the internet debate, I look at it
from above. The arguments themselves are boring, but the motivations of those who make the arguments are socially interesting and can be slotted into general theories about how people work.
>>1829908I do not care, at this time, about the relative impact of a multipolar versus unipolar world state on local organising. Local organisers have effectively no impact either way - you may as well consider whether an asteroid falling from the sky would be beneficial or harmful, what happens will happen, 仕方がない. I don't think bad people support Russia, I think stupid, desperate people get overly invested in foreign conflicts of all stripes - NAFO freaks have the same basic disease, but I'm not going to kick the outgroup for easy points so people here can feel good about themselves.
No.1829915
>>1829912Retards on the geopolitical conflict threads need to be forcibly shipped to a war zone to fight for whatever bourgeois war machine they're screeching support for tbh.
No.1830079
>>1829890I think you missed the point the poster was making.
No.1830087
What does anti-imperialism means to so called anti-multipolarists, if not dismantling the hegemonic world imperialist system? Weakening it? Building alternatives that allow nations to resist imperial imposition? Is it just being more mean on twitter?
Bloodgasm's post, "anti-imperialism, not multipolarism", do anti-multipolarists not understand how multipolarism came to be? How it was painstakingly built against the constant sabotage of western hegemony? Do they think it just magically appeared like a weather event?
Surely they're not drooling morons, and can at least understand that deliberate planning and half a century of consistent, fraught execution created the conditions we see today.
Must they resort to ridiculous strawmen, such that claiming that their opponents believe that Russia is communist and that building multipolarity will magically bring
heaven communism on Earth?
Giving them the benefit of the doubt, they aren't building these outrageous strawmen out of malice or illiteracy. So what remains? Where do these people get these insane talking points? Is it on Twitter? On YouTube? Can anyone comment?
>>1829558>Didn't he defect to China?This is so funny. I'm an immigrant. Maybe I'll start saying I'm a defector.
No.1830219
>>1830087>dismantling the hegemonic world imperialist systemThey are not doing that. Capital will just shift eastward or somewhere else. Billionaires and their exuberant wealth aren't confined to the US or EU alone. Multinational corporations span the world over. The world imperialist system includes said "anti-imperialist" countries. They are a part of it, all they want is a bigger share of its profits.
>Weakening itNurturing capitalist compradors towards alternate imperialist spheres of influence does not weaken the imperialist system, that is just a feature of it.
>Building alternatives that allow nations to resist imperial imposition?When everything is still capitalist, there is no alternative being put forth. It is still capitalism.
>do anti-multipolarists not understand how multipolarism came to be?Yes. It is just late-stage capitalism running its course over the world. It is not socialist, it is not "anti-imperialist" it is a direct result of imperialism in our modern age as it was during Lenin's time. It is a time when competing imperialist nations are re-divvying up the world and are clashing with one another first through proxy then through direct conflict.
>How it was painstakingly built against the constant sabotage of western hegemonyThis is a ridiculous claim. Crisis of capitalism have continued throughout all these "polarities". Mutipolarity wasn't manufactured like some secret weapon to smash the west. Its just the conditions of the time we are in. Conditions that can change relatively quickly.
>understand that deliberate planning and half a century of consistent, fraught execution created the conditions we see todayWho planned this? Wtf are you talking about? This is schizo nonsense. Many things created the conditions we have today. To surmise that this all is some perfectly implemented plan decades in the making is insane. So was the fall of the ussr, the 2008 crash, covid, all a part of this grand plan to birth multipolarity too?
>Must they resort to ridiculous strawmen>such that claiming that their opponents believe that Russia is communistWe have all seen comments stating unironically that modern Russia is socialist. Say what you will about those idiots, but they are squarely in your camp and in your spaces.
>and that building multipolarity will magically bring communism on Earth?Again there are idiots who say these things and think this. You may disagree, but they are staunch allies of "multipolarity" because multipolarity has nothing to do with building socialism but rather the expansion of various business ventures so it is no surprise opportunists and grifters are its loudest voices.
>Where do these people get these insane talking points?I can only speak for myself but it is not from internet personalities but from Marxist theory itself. From the study of socialist history. All this fawning over multipolarity, means nothing. The history of class struggle within many nations and time periods is so vast and complex that simplifying it all down to whether or not multipolarity is a thing or whether or not a reigning hegemony is in power, is frankly insultingly stupid. Peak armchair naval gazing. There is so much that needs to be done, so much much ground that needs to be rethreaded from what was lost to revisionism and anti-communist bias, education that must be met, parties that need reconstructing, why waste precious time on tailing nations/geopolitics and following a line that seeks to mainly empower our class enemies with only vague reformist promises to the vast swathes of workers who deserve way more? Everything I've seen about multipolarity flies in the face of all that I have learned about Marxism, is propagated by ex-trots with ties to finance capital, is filled with crypto-fascists, reformists, and revisionists, is praised by reactionary regimes, has been used as an excuse to repress communists, and seeks not to replace the global imperialist system but to nurture its growth under the vulgar guise of "anti-imperialism".
No.1830220
>>1830219>They are not doing that. Capital will just shift eastward or somewhere else. Billionaires and their exuberant wealth aren't confined to the US or EU alone. Multinational corporations span the world over. The world imperialist system includes said "anti-imperialist" countries. They are a part of it, all they want is a bigger share of its profits. You really have no concept of how global trade is currently organized, do you? The whole financial system is set up to keep colonized countries in a lower level of the value ladder. Christ, you really only read the news!
No.1830222
The source of their wealth IS the international inequality, get this through your head! It's 1% of the NATO+ countries doling out enough to 10% of the population to keep personnel in industries that need to be secured (for police/military enforcement, surveillance, or various monopoly rents) that creates this supersized global bourgeoisie that's strangulating the planet? Where have you been?
No.1830224
>>1828845i am that anon, miss me with the mind palace shit. people who "support china" are for you defined as anyone who pushes back against the US narrative. they can do it without clearly stating they think China is just a better platform for imperial core leftoidism than the US, when in fact it is a developing country utlizing the unstoppable engine of maoist agriculture
No.1830534
>>1830219You claim to have learned so much about Marxism, and still don't understand that "the real movement" is used in direct contrast to "the ideologically pure movement".
No.1830536
>>1830534>calling anything you pull out of your ass "the real movement"real brainlet hours
No.1830566
>>1830497>You are the front door of this great continent; we are the back doorWas Mao aware of the subtle sexual undertone this statement could assume?
No.1830860
>>1829902Every war now, including the one Iran is on the brink of, is competition between bourgeois states. These are all advanced bourgeois nations with developed state powers turning outward against one another, and the communist position is the same one Lenin supported in regards to the great war.
No.1830863
>>1830537>>1830539Sorry but complaining to workers that "X government is taking your money and giving it to Israel/Ukraine", ostensibly meant as a means of stirring them up and raising their consciousness, is in reality purely bourgeois rhetoric that does not move beyond the bounds of capitalist politics. Telling workers that the state is putting money to 'the wrong use' amounts to implying there is a 'correct use' of money beyond the function it serves for capital, thus by extension telling workers they have a stake in 'fixing' the distribution of surplus-value.
At least the fight for higher wages serves as an arena for struggle, to sharpen class antagonism and engage workers in strikes and confrontations, as long as communists do not support wage increases as an end in itself and definitely not because that money is 'rightfully' for the workers (it isn't).
No.1830868
>>1830860This, we must not fall into anti-americanism and forget about all the millitary bases Iran, Russia and China have spread across the world or their hegemony on finance and information
No.1830869
>>1830868Cool strawman. Despite all the theatrics the US and China have no problem doing business with each other, anyway.
No.1830871
>>1830863>amounts to implying there is a 'correct use' of moneythere is a correct use: bettering the lives of the working class
workers need to be made aware how many resources are being sent to the fascist states of ukraine and israel and the reason WHY so much is sent there to their detriment when they're barely able to pay their bills: because it's in america's elite interest to strangle russia, iran and china
No.1830905
>>1830860> advanced bourgeois nations with developed state powers turning outward against one anotherdo you actually think imperialism is when nations have "developed state power"? how does that make them turn outward against one another and what does it have to do with capitalism?
No.1830956
This is probably the dumbest idea I've ever heard of
No.1830958
With the last aid package the Us Congress seems to communicate that they are 100% behind war for the sake of unipolarity on three different fronts: Ukraine, Taiwan, and Palestine.
Personally I have the gut feeling they will lose on two fronts and win on one of them, but that's just my prediction
No.1830974
>>1830073> FrancsAnon, from which decade is that source from?
No.1836234
>>1830220https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/outsourcing-exploitation-global-labor-value-chains/There is a fantastic article written on it by Intan Suwandi, Author of Value Chains: The New Economic Imperialism
I recommend the series the article is a part of by OpenDemocracy, called decolonising the economy:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/decolonising-the-economy/Also in this is, John Smith's article, Imperialism in a coffee cup, Smith and Suwandi are really the best current authors on Imperialism, best explainers of it.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/imperialism-coffee-cup/ Unique IPs: 142